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Thread: BRE Spoilers and Spooks are back

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    Registered User ajmcforester's Avatar
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    Default BRE Spoilers and Spooks are back

    Several months a go I contacted BRE by email to see if they had a spook for the 240z around (don't know unless you ask). Well I got an email back that evening that they took a tour of the original factory that produced the spooks and spoilers the day before well I have been in louse contact ever since. This morning I got the email that they have them and needed my address to calculate shipping since they have not done that yet. They are being made in the original molds. The price is very fair to me, and thought a lot of you might be interested.

    http://www.bre2.net/mm5/merchant.mvc...bredatsunparts

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRE website
    "This BRE Datsun 240Z Rear Spoiler (highlighted in yellow above) was designed by Peter Brock....."
    Yeah, right....

    With all the talent, history and kudos behind BRE, why do they feel it necessary to come out with such blatant nonsense?

    Does Pete Brock actually check the sales blurbs on his site, or is it just written by minions who don't know the truth?

    BRE don't actually need to lie about things like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Yeah, right....

    With all the talent, history and kudos behind BRE, why do they feel it necessary to come out with such blatant nonsense?

    Does Pete Brock actually check the sales blurbs on his site, or is it just written by minions who don't know the truth?

    BRE don't actually need to lie about things like this.
    Then who designed it? It looks like Peter Brock's work. I've seen concept drawings of the Shelby Mustangs with his signature and a similar spook on the car in the illustration. I know BRE his company developed and sold this part.

    I hope your not mistaking it for something sold in Europe, I don't know if this was sold over their. The American 240Z did have a spook originally like you could get in Europe and the rest of the world. The BRE was one of the first on the US market.

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    I'm not talking about Europe, I'm talking about Japan. I'm not talking about the BRE 'Spook' ( that's a well-documented BRE creation ), I'm talking about the rear spoiler.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester
    Then who designed it? It looks like Peter Brock's work.
    Well, given the fact that an identical twin-ribbed rear spoiler was seen on the debut of the Nissan Fairlady Z432-R model shown at the Press Preview event at Nissan's head office in Ginza, Tokyo on October 18th 1969, and assuming that it would have needed to have been designed, tested, productionised and produced some weeks or even months before that, I'd say it was a fairly good bet that BRE had nothing to do with it.

    I believe that what's being called the first 'BRE rear spoiler' for the Z was actually the rear spoiler that was fitted to the 432-R as standard equipment, and was an optional accessory on the other models. Later on, I believe BRE made their own unique moulding which looked similar to the later ( non-ribbed ) factory rear spoiler. But the ribbed rear spoiler was a Nissan factory designed and produced item.


    Alan T.
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    Interesting. I thought Les at CDM had the original BRE molds for the spook. I wonder if he will still be selling them? Also, I wonder if these new spooks will come with the integrated brake ducting like the early BRE spooks did?

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    I'm not talking about Europe, I'm talking about Japan. I'm not talking about the BRE 'Spook' ( that's a well-documented BRE creation ), I'm talking about the rear spoiler.



    Well, given the fact that an identical twin-ribbed rear spoiler was seen on the debut of the Nissan Fairlady Z432-R model shown at the Press Preview event at Nissan's head office in Ginza, Tokyo on October 18th 1969, and assuming that it would have needed to have been designed, tested, productionised and produced some weeks or even months before that, I'd say it was a fairly good bet that BRE had nothing to do with it.

    I believe that what's being called the first 'BRE rear spoiler' for the Z was actually the rear spoiler that was fitted to the 432-R as standard equipment, and was an optional accessory on the other models. Later on, I believe BRE made their own unique moulding which looked similar to the later ( non-ribbed ) factory rear spoiler. But the ribbed rear spoiler was a Nissan factory designed and produced item.


    Alan T.
    That I agree with!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    Interesting. I thought Les at CDM had the original BRE molds for the spook. I wonder if he will still be selling them? Also, I wonder if these new spooks will come with the integrated brake ducting like the early BRE spooks did?

    -Mike
    They show on the ad with the ducts

    Also I emailed my contact about the rear spoiler. He could have helped with the design of the rear spoiler, because several performance shops in the USA had some input into the car design. I know Carrol Shelby had his hands in the 240Z, why not Peter Brock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester View Post
    Also I emailed my contact about the rear spoiler. He could have helped with the design of the rear spoiler, because several performance shops in the USA had some input into the car design. I know Carrol Shelby had his hands in the 240Z, why not Peter Brock?
    No disrespect to you, but it might take a little bit more in the way of proof to convince me. Nissan had their own stylists, designers and engineers at the time we are talking about. They even had their own wind tunnel. They were quite capable of designing that rear spoiler themselves, and I believe that they did.

    Which 'performance shops' in the USA had some input into the S30-series Z's concept, design and/or engineering before it was launched in November 1969? What did Carroll Shelby have to do with the car?

    Sorry, but I think much of what we are hearing is just the echoing of past lies ( read: advertising and PR ), still bouncing around long after they were first uttered. These days - forty years later - we should be a little less gullible.

    Talking of forty years later, I'd expect those "original" moulds to be a little er, fragile by now too......


    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester View Post
    They show on the ad with the ducts
    I am referring to the additional upper and lower ducting shown in these pictures of an original early BRE spook that came on one of my cars. I don't think that is visible in the photo.

    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    No disrespect to you, but it might take a little bit more in the way of proof to convince me. Nissan had their own stylists, designers and engineers at the time we are talking about. They even had their own wind tunnel. They were quite capable of designing that rear spoiler themselves, and I believe that they did.

    Which 'performance shops' in the USA had some input into the S30-series Z's concept, design and/or engineering before it was launched in November 1969? What did Carroll Shelby have to do with the car?

    Sorry, but I think much of what we are hearing is just the echoing of past lies ( read: advertising and PR ), still bouncing around long after they were first uttered. These days - forty years later - we should be a little less gullible.

    Talking of forty years later, I'd expect those "original" moulds to be a little er, fragile by now too......


    Alan T.
    Why is it that you demand others to provide you with "proof" of their statements yet you expect us to accept your beliefs as fact?
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup View Post
    Why is it that you demand others to provide you with "proof" of their statements yet you expect us to accept your beliefs as fact?
    Maybe because they have something to sell, and I don't.

    In this particular case ( the rear spoiler ), I believe the 'evidence' quite clearly contradicts BRE's claim.

    If we are to believe that Pete Brock designed the rear spoiler seen on the Fairlady Z432-R at launch ( I remind you, in November 1969 ) then there's a whole BIG story out there that has so far not been told. It would involve Brock working with Nissan's engineers in Japan many months before November 1969, and almost nobody knowing about it. Or perhaps you believe he sketched it out on a napkin and posted it to Nissan by Air Mail ( after all, Pinin Farina, Yutaka Katayama and Walt Disney 'designed' the whole car after lunch in 1967 - so why not? That Farina guy could even design cars whilst he was dead )?

    Call me a cynical old fella, but I think - if Brock had been designing for Nissan - then the BRE publicity machine might have made a little more mileage out of it all. Meanwhile, back in the real world, I don't believe Pete Brock actually even saw an S30-series Z car until October 1969 at the earliest.

    You believe Brock designed that rear spoiler, I take it? Or perhaps you haven't 'come to a view' about that yet. Maybe you'll put some thought into the subject now that you've pointed out my personality defect ( again )

    Nice to see that I'm still not on your ignore list, too


    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Maybe because they have something to sell, and I don't.

    Alan T.
    Who in this discussion has anything related to selling things, I won't work for BRE. From time to time I sell some extra parts, but we all do that and it does not relate to this. I have several early Z car book that mention Carrol Shelby's work on the 240z, the roadsters and the Toyota 2000GT. Mostly on basic engine performance, driveline, and basic American marketing. I don't think a lot of drastic things were done, it sounded like some basic inquiry from Datsun.

    I don't know if your on the attack or just having a discussion and coming off wrong, but please read your posts a little more if you won't want to come off as attacking everyone. This was like the time about the side badges being removed in the US on the first shipments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    I am referring to the additional upper and lower ducting shown in these pictures of an original early BRE spook that came on one of my cars. I don't think that is visible in the photo.

    -Mike
    Your right, can I use your picture in reference to my contact and ask, because I'm restoring close to how the car was sold and this was a part on my car?

    I found out about the spook when talking to the original owner, he even told me how the original was broken in 74 or 75 (I'd need to check my note for the date). It also explained, why the PS door was a different color, why I had one plastic headlight bucket and one metal bucket. Lucky all damaged metal was replaced and none of the metal welded to the body was damaged or the American Racing rim. I just wish I could say that about its second accident (last owners damage), but nothing that can't be repaired correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester View Post
    Who in this discussion has anything related to selling things, I won't work for BRE.
    I'm not 'attacking' anyone, let alone you. The people who have something to sell are BRE, and they are the ones claiming that Pete Brock designed that rear spoiler. I don't believe that he did. It's all quite simple. This is a Forum, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester
    I have several early Z car book that mention Carrol Shelby's work on the 240z, the roadsters and the Toyota 2000GT. Mostly on basic engine performance, driveline, and basic American marketing. I don't think a lot of drastic things were done, it sounded like some basic inquiry from Datsun.
    Please can you tell me the titles of these books, as I would like to read them too? Authors? Publishers? Any clues at all? I feel like I've missed out. I've read - and heard - plenty of stories about the S30-series Z, but proof of Carroll Shelby's involvement is one I can't remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester
    I don't know if your on the attack or just having a discussion and coming off wrong, but please read your posts a little more if you won't want to come off as attacking everyone.
    As I said above, I'm not "on the attack". I think we can pride ourselves on this forum for trying to see through the fog and get down to the truth about these cars and matters historical, so stories which I personally believe to be apocryphal written on a website which is selling something ( BRE ) are certainly within our range and collective remit. If they are true, then they'll hold water. If they are not, then we are all the better for it ( I believe ).

    Your first reply to me quite obviously misunderstood my initial points ( I wasn't talking about the 'Spook', and this is nothing to do with 'Europe' ), so what I am supposed to say?

    If you're looking for an example of a personal attack post, take a peep at post #10 ( but mind you don't slip on the vomit ).




    Apologies if I come across to you in a way that you don't like, but I assure you that is not the intention. I'm just interested in the facts.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Please can you tell me the titles of these books, as I would like to read them too? Authors? Publishers? Any clues at all? I feel like I've missed out. I've read - and heard - plenty of stories about the S30-series Z, but proof of Carroll Shelby's involvement is one I can't remember.

    Alan T.
    Let me go through and check the books so I direct you to the right ones, a couple of the ones I have are from Australia, and the US so I don't know hard they will be to find. Their was not much detail on what Shelby did just a mention that he had a part.

    It would not surprise me to find out BRE had some influence in the Z they were having good success on the track with the roadsters, and helped out with the marketing of the Z. It just makes since. Yes BRE are out to sell something, but looking at the sight they are more for nostalgia.

    I think the release of the parts have been from a large interest in the Z again, and people calling to get original styled parts for their Z cars. I don't see any true performance parts. I think the demand is their, look how many reproductions are out their. That detail is small when looking at the overall picture. Not to say it isn't important especially when understanding the cars history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    ....snip....If you're looking for an example of a personal attack post, take a peep at post #10 ( but mind you don't slip on the vomit ). .... snip....
    Check out post #72 on the following link and then translate it if you'd like to see what a real "personal" attack looks like.

    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...t=38906&page=3
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    I emailed about the enclosed duct that Mike B posted without the picture just a description.

    Direct from the Email:
    I'm woefully without a lot of details. I tracked the shop down that made
    the parts originally for BRE, talked to the new owner (who was a worker
    there in the '70s and now owns the place), and he didn't know what he had
    but said he never throws anything away. Peter and I stopped by there on a
    trip to LA and Peter and the guy went thru the pieces so quickly I didn't
    get a chance to take any pictures. The guy or Peter would grab a piece and
    Peter would say: "yeah that's our..., yeah that's our..." etc. I made a
    list and then worked with the guy on how he'd sell them to us, how they'd
    get shipped, pricing, etc.

    Now with that said, Peter says the brake vents were not an enclosed tube as
    they couldn't be fabricated that way with a mold. So the ducting that runs
    out the back is open on the top and then there was an additional piece that
    fit on top of the ducting to make it an enclosed tube. We didn't ask the
    shop if they still had the mold for that small piece. I've now asked Peter
    why we didn't look into that and he said it was because the primary purpose
    of the spook was down force and not cooling the brakes and even fewer people
    today would use the piece to actually cool the brakes. With all that said,
    I'll call the shop in CA and see if the guy still has the mold. Even if he
    doesn't it shouldn't take much to make one.

    I kept his info out since I didn't ask if that would be OK, and some personal information for my order.

    I'm not posting to this tread anymore I've seen this spitball war one to many times.
    Last edited by ajmcforester; 07-18-2010 at 01:06 PM. Reason: Forgot what I was going to post

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup View Post
    Check out post #72 on the following link and then translate it if you'd like to see what a real "personal" attack looks like.
    moonpup,
    You're making this thread all about me. Have you got anything to add to the subject that's being discussed, or are you so fixated with my scent that you can't see anything else?

    Where's the "Laidback purist" that you portray yourself as, and where is your sense of humour ( oh sorry, 'humor' )?

    Sprinkle a few morsels of conjecture / opinion / evidence in amongst your contributions occasionally, for crying out loud. All I ever see you posting are ebay links and comments about what I'm saying or doing. Post something worth reading, worth some discussion. Where's the content? Got any evidence of Carroll Shelby / Pete Brock input on the design and engineering of Nissan's S30-series Z car?

    Anything.....?


    Alan T.

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    Perhaps the text on the BRE site changed in the last few hours but I see the following for the rear spoiler.

    This BRE Datsun 240Z Rear Spoiler (highlighted in yellow above) is similar to the one Datsun offered for the Zs at the time but is not identical. The rear spoiler BRE ran on their 1970-71 Championship 240Z racers was slightly higher so as to be more effective at the higher speeds the BRE Zs would run and be balanced with the affects of the front BRE air dam. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

    The text that Alan quoted for the rear spoiler is closer to what is currently stated for the front air dam.

    This BRE Datsun 240Z Air Dam (highlighted in yellow above) was designed by Peter Brock, as a derivative of his famous "spook" concept he created for the BRE Datsun roadsters in 1969. This particular BRE Air Dam design ran on our 1971 Championship 240Z racer. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

    Hopefully this was a simple copy and paste error that was unintentional.
    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    Perhaps the text on the BRE site changed in the last few hours but I see the following for the rear spoiler.
    You're right, Mike. They've changed it. In reaction to this thread, no doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW
    Hopefully this was a simple copy and paste error that was unintentional.
    They illustrate the ribbed rear spoiler ( as seen on - for example - the original #46 BRE race car ) but I believe I'm right in saying that the taller rear spoiler was later, and was not ribbed. It was sold with Interpart no.2701010 in the later ( early 1973 ) Interpart catalog.

    Does anyone ( Ron Carter? ) know for sure that the ribbed rear spoiler seen on the #46 car was actually taller than the factory 432-R rear spoiler? They look the same to me, whilst the later ( smooth ) Interpart rear spoiler does look taller than the later - factory - unribbed rear spoiler.

    Open question: So which rear spoiler are they putting back into production? The ribbed one, or the ( taller? ) smooth one?



    Alan T.

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    Default Rear Spolier

    So what name would you give this spoiler on the BSR/Newman 280Z?

    It's much taller than the BRE version and more upright.

    Not sure of the history, designer, etc.

    Alan, your thoughts....
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    gnosez,
    I'm fairly sure that one was a purely American design. Certainly not a 'factory' / Sports Option part in Japan as far as I'm aware.

    By late 1972, the Nissan works race cars in Japan were using the big three-piece rear spoilers, like this:
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmcforester View Post
    Your right, can I use your picture in reference to my contact and ask, because I'm restoring close to how the car was sold and this was a part on my car?
    Sorry for the late reply, I was out all day after my post. Anyway, sure, feel free to use the pictures, although I believe I contacted the same person you did about the spoiler before I left and I got a similar reply to what you posted.

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    I'm just interested in the facts.
    Neither Nissan nor BRE designed that rear spoiler - instead it looks like they both adapted almost directly - the rear spoiler designed, developed and styled by GM/Chevy for the 1967 Camaro.

    http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/...es/rpo_d80.htm

    Front end "lift" reducing chin spoilers and rear spoilers for added downforce were all used on mass production models here in the U.S. years ahead of the Z.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Nissan had their own stylists, designers and engineers at the time we are talking about. They even had their own wind tunnel. They were quite capable of designing that rear spoiler themselves, and I believe that they did.
    Hi Alan:
    I don't recall "Nissan" having a wind tunnel in 1967,68 or 69. At least it was broadly reported that they used models in a fluid dynamics simulation - and later used a wind tunnel at one of the Universities in Japan. Yes/No?

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi Alan:
    I don't recall "Nissan" having a wind tunnel in 1967,68 or 69. At least it was broadly reported that they used models in a fluid dynamics simulation - and later used a wind tunnel at one of the Universities in Japan. Yes/No?

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Hi Carl,

    Not sure if you ever saw this "Datsun Styling" press release from April 1969 that I posted last year http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=35384. In the attached picture it shows "wind tunnel research" in the #2 photo. I'm not sure if this was a Nissan owned facility or not, but it seems they did use wind tunnels as part of their design work.

    -Mike
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    Last edited by Mike B; 07-18-2010 at 10:26 PM. Reason: typo

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    Hi Mike:
    Yes - I wasn't questing the fact that Nissan made use of a wind tunnel - only the fact that they had their own at that time. All the reports I've seen said that they used a University wind tunnel because they didn't have their own at that time.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Neither Nissan nor BRE designed that rear spoiler - instead it looks like they both adapted almost directly - the rear spoiler designed, developed and styled by GM/Chevy for the 1967 Camaro.
    Now Carl, you know what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about the theory and concept of rear spoilers in general ( of course not ), I'm talking about the size, shape and fitment of that particular rear spoiler, and I'm quite sure you know that.

    I look forward to seeing you apply the same kind of warped semantics to the rest of the car. When you meet up with Yoshihiko Matsuo next week, you'll be telling him that his title of 'Chief Designer' on the 'Maru Z' project was false, as nothing on the car had been 'designed' first by Nissan.

    Here's some advice: Don't. It's going to sound a little silly.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Front end "lift" reducing chin spoilers and rear spoilers for added downforce were all used on mass production models here in the U.S. years ahead of the Z.
    I see we are back "here in the U.S." again, and the rest of the automotive world is playing catch-up. After all, your President claims that the USA is "...the nation that invented the automobile..."

    So whilst we have your attention, perhaps you'd like to comment on the claims made in this thread that both Pete Brock and Carroll Shelby had design and/or engineering input on the S30-series Z before launch?

    If I popped up and claimed that Mike Costin and Colin Chapman had contributed to the design process, I'm sure I'd be inundated with requests to both prove and quantify it. Shelby ( ) and Brock perhaps sound a little bit more likely as candidates to you, I guess? After all, those 'Japs' just copy everything, don't they? Especially when they are designing an "American Car, Made In Japan".......

    Or is it just a matter of semantics....?


    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi Alan:
    I don't recall "Nissan" having a wind tunnel in 1967,68 or 69. At least it was broadly reported that they used models in a fluid dynamics simulation - and later used a wind tunnel at one of the Universities in Japan. Yes/No?
    Wrong, Carl.
    Nissan did have their own full-size wind tunnel at their Chuo Kenkyujo facility.

    They also contributed to the building and running costs of the university wind tunnel you mention, as this kind of philanthropy would help to produce graduates who were skilled in the use of such facilities before joining the Nissan workforce.

    It's all written up in Nissan's 1964-1973 ten-year report book, including the financial reports.



    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Now Carl, you know what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about the theory and concept of rear spoilers in general ( of course not ), I'm talking about the size, shape and fitment of that particular rear spoiler, and I'm quite sure you know that.
    Hi Alan:
    Yes, I know what you are talking about. I thought it would be productive to look at where it originally came from, rather than argue about who used it first on the Z.

    There seemed to be a question of "who" designed it. It has always been broadly reported that Nissan "used" MacPherson and Chapman Struts, the A/T used was a Ford design produced by JATCO, S.U. Carb's etc etc - No one seems to argue with that - - I don't see the rear spoiler as being any different.

    Indeed most of the automotive magazine articles about the 240Z in 1970, all mentioned the fact that there really wasn't a lot of new technology created, but it was the combination of technologies selected to work well together, and the packaging of them, that made the Z Car such a brilliant design.

    No reason we shouldn't recognize the rear spoiler as well for what it is and where it came from. Indeed the automotive reporter from the L.A. Times made the first comment about the Z having a Camaro rear spoiler at the Tokyo Motor Show back in Oct. of 69. Nothing really new there...


    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    I look forward to seeing you apply the same kind of warped semantics to the rest of the car. When you meet up with Yoshihiko Matsuo next week, you'll be telling him that his title of 'Chief Designer' on the 'Maru Z' project was false, as nothing on the car had been 'designed' first by Nissan.

    Here's some advice: Don't. It's going to sound a little silly.....

    I have to say I was very pleased that Mr. Matsuo accepted my invitation to join me and all the Z Car Enthusiasts at the 40th Anniversary Celebration Of The Z Car in Nashville. Several of the Directors and Supporters of the DHM will be there as well. The ZCCA Officers working with Nissan have planed a really great event. It is especially nice that many people in the Eastern US will now also have the opportunity to meet him personally.

    Of course Mr. Matsuo will also be visiting the Datsun Heritage Museum in California the following week. We have some exciting plans there are well.

    As to original design, no question that the styling of that beautiful body and many of the detail features were created by Mr. Matsuo and his team. In that regard, I'm sure that lots of people there will have many questions they would like to ask him directly and I wanted to assure that they would have the opportunity to do so.

    Mr. Matsuo's visit this time will also be covered by several automotive magazines and news press people. My hope is that perhaps finally - they will learn for themselves "who" did design the Z - and we won't see the myth repeated so often in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    So whilst we have your attention, perhaps you'd like to comment on the claims made in this thread that both Pete Brock and Carroll Shelby had design and/or engineering input on the S30-series Z before launch?
    I believe that my original Post about the origins of that rear spoiler was the best information I could add to the discussion.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    If you read the ad:

    This BRE Datsun 240Z Rear Spoiler (highlighted in yellow above) is similar to the one Datsun offered for the Zs at the time but is not identical. The rear spoiler BRE ran on their 1970-71 Championship 240Z racers was slightly higher so as to be more effective at the higher speeds the BRE Zs would run and be balanced with the affects of the front BRE air dam. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

    It states BRE modified a Datsun design for racing purposes. What is the big problem folks?
    Mark
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    Hi Guys, not that I want to get involved in this, however, my understanding is that the BRE 46 ran the Nissan (432) rear spoiler. Early and late photos of the BRE 46 car support this theory as it is a ribbed spoiler, there is no way to confirm or deny that their could be a slight height difference in the BRE product vs. the Nissan product.

    My car has the Nissan (432) unit, and so does Gerry Mason's original #3 BRE 240Z.

    I am sure that the Brock's in this case are not certain of the exact situation here. They remember it their way. Please keep in mind are talking about events that happened 40+ years ago, and quite frankly it is easy to mix this information up to some degree. I will be seeing Gayle and Peter in a couple of weeks and will talk to them about it. I am sure that they will correct the website as I know that they do their very best to be clear about what is, and is not correct. As we all know they have made a small correction already.

    Also keep in mind that Peter ran the race team, and although he was involved in all aspects of the car, I am sure he had one of the team members working directly on this and he had some (but not a lot) of involvement with this.

    My recollection is that there is a similar spoiler on the Shelby (Brock) Coupe which pre dates the Camero's rear spoiler. I know that Brock & Shelby had issues at high speed down the Mulsane Straight at Le Mans and as the story goes they went to a series of aerodynamic engineers and settled on this same type of rear spoiler design that you see on the Z.

    As for the original molds. Really there are no "original" molds, you can make X number of parts out of a single mold and then it has to be replaced. In this case I know that these molds have been used and replaced, as needed. Again, copies of the original molds have been made and are used currently. I also know who has these molds and who gets parts from them. I believe Les and the Brocks get them from the same guy.

    BRE Spooks are three pieces, the main unit with two fiberglassed covers for brake ducts. Most often the spook is sold without the fiberglass ducting. This unit is a Peter Brock design, and the idea comes from the front spoiler he designed made for the Roadster.

    I think it is important to clarify the historical significance of these items, but I do think that we as a group can be a little more polite, spirited debate is fine, but this thread reads like a championship prize fight. Let's ratchet this back a little and discuss this like gentlemen.

    I hope that this helps to clarify this. If anyone has a problem with what I have stated above please feel free to PM me and we can discuss this off line.

    thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    If you read the ad:

    This BRE Datsun 240Z Rear Spoiler (highlighted in yellow above) is similar to the one Datsun offered for the Zs at the time but is not identical. The rear spoiler BRE ran on their 1970-71 Championship 240Z racers was slightly higher so as to be more effective at the higher speeds the BRE Zs would run and be balanced with the affects of the front BRE air dam. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

    It states BRE modified a Datsun design for racing purposes. What is the big problem folks?
    The perhaps not-so "big problem" was what was originally written on the BRE website. See a quote in post #2 of this thread.

    See also posts #20 & 21. BRE changed the text on the rear spoiler blurb.

    However, they might need to change it again. According to Carl, it might be more accurate if they change the text to "..this rear spoiler was originally designed for the Chevrolet Camaro...."


    Ron,
    I think you're right. Although that ribbed rear spoiler was originally designated for the PS30-SB 'Fairlady Z432-R' ( note the 'R' ), and was initially developed and homologated by Nissan's competitions department at Oppama. It was then adopted as an option for other Z variants before launch.

    I think the BRE site is still somewhat confusing, and also wrong about the height issue. If you order a rear spoiler from their website today, do you receive the 'ribbed' ( 432-R ) type, or the later, taller, non-ribbed type - as per the old Interpart catalog? They appear to illustrate the 'ribbed' version......


    Alan T.

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Hi Alan,

    Yes, the 432-R rear spoiler to be exact...

    Also, based on the rules for SCCA C Production rules I think the rear spoiler would have to be an item that was available for the 240Z and was homolgated from the Japanese market place, just like the 5spd transmission that was used by BRE from the european and Japanese marketplace.

    This was a production based class so adding aerodynamic enhancements that were not a option with or OEM for the car would be against the rules. I am sure that there are FIA papers for the 432-R spoiler to be used in competition. Just like there is FIA papers for the Roadster competition 5 Speed that was used in the BRE cars.

    The whole story about the front spook was based on providing brake ducting for the Roadster, then the Z (that just happened to help the aerodynamics of the car back then).

    I got my fiberglass parts for my Z from the same guy that is manufacturing parts for the Brocks, and it is the 432-R ribbed spoiler and not the later, non ribbed spoiler.

    I have compared it to a right hand drive 240Z with an original 432-R spoiler and it is exactly the same.

    Alan, I will speak to the Brocks and get this sorted out.

    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by doradox View Post
    That's a funny looking Camaro......

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Carter
    I have compared it to a right hand drive 240Z with an original 432-R spoiler and it is exactly the same.

    Alan, I will speak to the Brocks and get this sorted out.
    Thanks Ron,
    Sorry to trouble you with this at a busy time.


    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    I spoke to Gayle via email, explained the concern and the site has been modified to the following:

    "You've been asking for them and now they're available... our original BRE Datsun body parts as run on our Championship racers AND amazingly, made by the same company that made them for us originally in the '70s!

    The rear spoiler featured on this BRE 240Z (highlighted in yellow above) is a direct copy of the rear spoiler BRE ran on their 1970-71 Championship 240Z racers and is designed to balance the affects of the front BRE air dam. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

    Of course we had to also provide you the latest in technology. In addition to the original fiberglass body parts, we now offer them in carbon fiber. Be cool with either. Just select which you prefer when ordering. Carbon Fiber of course costs more and the drop down window will give you the addt'l charge for Carbon."

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Ron,

    BRE should have you on their payroll.....




    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    No Alan,

    They can't afford me

    We help our friends out. The Brock's have been very good to me, I am more than happy to return the favor. It's a small world out there.

    Ron

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    Mike B
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Nissan did have their own full-size wind tunnel at their Chuo Kenkyujo facility.
    Alan, is this a photo of a protype Fairlady Z at the Nissan Chuo Kenkyujo wind tunnel? I assume it is a protype since there doesn't appear to be any badges on the hood or fenders.

    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    gnosez,
    I'm fairly sure that one was a purely American design. Certainly not a 'factory' / Sports Option part in Japan as far as I'm aware.

    By late 1972, the Nissan works race cars in Japan were using the big three-piece rear spoilers, like this:


    Not that it matters, but this is the same spoiler that currently resides on my 240z for the past 30+ years. It's huge....

    Even though it seems tensions rises during these types of discussions, I still find the discussions to very interesting and thought provoking. My hat's off to all....

    **EDIT** Photo addition....
    Last edited by Z Speed; 07-28-2010 at 11:00 AM.
    "May the traffic be light and the curves be tight."

    "72" 240-Z
    "02" E46 M3
    "05" S40 T5
    "02" Honda Passport

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    The Large three piece spoiler you have Z speed was based around the Trans AM/IMSA cars post 1973, and is an american part as far as I know. Although I am sure that the larger spoiler at that time might have been used and designed across several markets for racing.

    I agree spirited debate is interesting, provocative and a great learning experience. I just don't care for members calling each other out on a public forum. I feel that we are gentlemen (and ladies), and we could be a little kinder to each other and still get our point across. Maybe I am just too picky...

    Ron

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    Thanks Ron. I agree with your, "kinder" statement. I too try my best to adhere to that belief....

    As for the spoiler, that statement is the best description I've heard. This car was setup (put together) in the early "70's) for local racing during that period. Besides the removal of the triple Mikuni's, (boy I wished I still had those) the car hasn't been altered from the original race form since that period. Thanks for the information. I always wondered about the spoiler on my car. I don't see many Z's running this particular unit....

    Thanks for the input. Always appriciated....

    **EDIT** The wheels where changed out as well....
    Last edited by Z Speed; 07-28-2010 at 11:26 AM.
    "May the traffic be light and the curves be tight."

    "72" 240-Z
    "02" E46 M3
    "05" S40 T5
    "02" Honda Passport

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    I have seen photos from the 1972/1973 time frame with the early fender flairs and this wing. Looks like it was also available in 72 in Japan, and like I said, it could have been used across several markets including the Japanese market.

    These types of parts are designed and fabricated to fit certain rules based on a racing class, or classification. Does your car have fender flares too? If so it could be a late C production car. Do you have any racing history that goes along with this car?

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    My step father was a 747 pilot for Northwest Airlines and flew to and from Japan regularly during the 70's all the way up to the Delta merge. He was the original owner. He along with one of the managers of, what is now defunct; Downtown Datsun in Seattle built the car. He personally bought and imported many parts directly from Japan as he could just carry, what he bought, onto the plane during his trips....

    I know the mirrors, spook, spoiler, fiberglass light buckets, and last but not least the light cover and chrome rings were brought over from Japan. From what he told me (he's passed on now) he also added Volvo needles to the SU's once he swapped them back in and sold the Mikuni's. I have never verified this. If they are they are still in there. The car has been sitting for many many years. When I got the car in the early / mid 80’s (can’t remember when it was passed on to me) I only drove it a few years then parked it. It’s been sitting in my garage ever since. I really want to do a full restore someday. I’ll need tons of help when I do....

    Off the top of my head, the only thing I've replaced on this car is tires, exhaust, mechanical oil pump, and little odds and ends. I know the motor was balanced and the motor mounts were redone after the stock ones broke pushing the fan into the radiator during a race. He use to race it a lot in the 1970-80’s at what was SIR at the time and now is called Pacific Raceways. I wish I could remember what class he raced in, but I do know it is no longer running for many years now. This was not a major competition car, but it has seen a whole lot of track time. It has 98k org. miles....

    The car does not have nor did it ever have any fender flares...
    "May the traffic be light and the curves be tight."

    "72" 240-Z
    "02" E46 M3
    "05" S40 T5
    "02" Honda Passport

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    Default BRE Rear Spoiler - Product quality

    I ordered one of the rear spoilers and received it yesterday. I was wondering if others here have ordered this spoiler from BRE and if what they received was of the same finish as the one I received. I did speak with an individual at BRE and was told all the ones in stock look the same as the one I received. I have to admit I was a bit surprised at the lack of finish as I was expecting a ready to bolt on spoiler.
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    1971 240Z - HLS30-23305 2/71
    1971 240Z - HLS30-30855 5/71

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    Today I thought I'd go ahead and do all the measuring/marking for installing the BRE rear spoiler. What I discovered is that the outer studs are not the same distance apart as the originals, making it impossible to install. The original studs, according to installation instructions I found on line, were 40 3/4" apart. The current spoiler has the studs at 40 5/16". I am disappointed that a BRE product doesn't meet the standards that the early year products did. I have great respect for BRE and this won't change my support for them.
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    Last edited by Galaxybj; 09-17-2014 at 02:24 PM.
    1971 240Z - HLS30-23305 2/71
    1971 240Z - HLS30-30855 5/71

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    I can't see any excuse for the damaged finish along the entire top edge of the spoiler. That is not incidental damage, it has been ground or filed off. I suspect there is a problem with the mold and the edge is not coming out clean and this is someone's very poor "fix". This should be completely finished in gelcoat and ready for installation or paint to color of your choice. As to the mounting studs, one might presume no prior installation holes in the vehicle and therefore new holes would be drilled to the current spec. If BRE assured you that the spec was the same as original, then you have an issue to take back to them - along with the finish item.

    As an aside, my dealer had already installed the 1st gen BRE "Spook" and spoiler when I bought my car - and they are still with it. The BRE site shows the current "Spook" as the original but it is really the 2nd gen. design for 1971 and after. Here are a couple of pics of the 1st gen. "Spook", used only for the 1970 competition season.
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    Jim Arnett
    HLS30-15320 12/1970, original owner
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    IZCC Original Owner Registry #53

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    When I purchased mine it was a second gen spook stye and it fit. When I did research into the BRE parts there was two generations of the spoilers and spooks from them. SO you might have gotten a closed match product, but the wrong gen from your last one that you are replacing. I did ask BRE about accuracy to the originals, they told me they were using the same molds. THey are getting a little worn, on the spooks their was indication marks in the mold to tell you were to drill, well if you look hard enough in the light at the right angle I was able to find all but one of the marks. The spoiler mold is two parts and if it is getting worn it would explain the grind marks because that is the seam and resin would seep. I think they expect your going to paint it and it is good in that case that they do not try to cover it up with paint, because the surface would get thicker and thick paint cracks and swells a lot on fiberglass. The one thing I did not like about the spook was the weaved fiberglass they placed on the back, I'm working for an original look and they did not have weaved fiberglass so I need to get resin out sand it down on the back and put mesh fiberglass on the back.

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    Pete Brock's personal S1 240 is supposed to be unveiled at JCCS 9/27 and looks to include the spook and spoiler, so BRE may have updated info on how they install. New BRE shirt gives a silhouette with both classic details:
    http://www.bre2.net/mm5/graphics/000...tshirt_lgt.jpg

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    I am not sure that the installation would be any different given the rear hatch is the same as it was 40+ years ago and these rear spoilers are to be the same as 40+ years ago. Here are the instructions I found https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByCv...Jpdw&cindex=17

    Unfortunately the current spoilers do not come with everything listed on the original instructions.
    1971 240Z - HLS30-23305 2/71
    1971 240Z - HLS30-30855 5/71

  54. #54
    Registered User ajmcforester's Avatar
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    Default

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached is the Spook directions. if you get the spook and you have the lower valance with the welded in bolt location do not use the fasteners listed they are a slightly different size and pitch.

    I asked about the washers here is the response I got for the sizes

    "The original BRE parts guy says 7/8” small washer and 1˝” large washer. I ran this by Peter and he said this sounds about right although he doesn’t know if they make a washer as large as 1.5” but he says you want it to be as large as you can find."

  55. #55
    Jim Arnett jfa.series1's Avatar
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    Here's a few considerations when installing a BRE rear spoiler:
    - Make sure to clean and paint the brackets holding the studs to prevent rust.
    - Use self-locking nuts when securing it to the hatch.
    - Consider inserting a small O-ring on each stud prior to mounting to the hatch. The O-ring will help seal the hole thru the hatch and it helps hold the stud brackets slightly above the hatch surface and reduce abrasion to the hatch paint. The O-rings can also be used to help adjust the clearance of the ends of the spoiler against the fenders.

    As to the rough top edge on the new series of spoilers, here is a shot of the top edge of my old one. It has a flat about 5/16" wide across the entire edge. I don't know if this flat has disappeared from the new units.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Jim Arnett
    HLS30-15320 12/1970, original owner
    L24-020208 (original)
    IZCC Original Owner Registry #53

  56. #56
    Registered User Galaxybj's Avatar
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    Today I had a very nice conversation with Gayle Brock regarding the rear spoiler. The crew at BRE gathered together yesterday after the Tribute 240Z returned to their shop to discuss the issues I brought up with fitment and talked to the individual who installed the rear spoiler on the Tribute 240Z to see what issues he had encountered. It was discovered that the mounting studs on one side were moved inward (1/8" by my measure). Gayle said they will be sending me the previous version to replace this current version.

    While I was talking with Gayle I happened to ask about the clear headlight covers that BRE sold back in the early 70's and if they may consider bringing them back. She said they actually had recently had that discussion and are considering it. Their concern is if there is enough interest in their clear covers. I had them on my 5/71 Z and really liked the looks (when I got her back the covers were not on her) Very clean looking compared to the ones available today with the rubber seal.
    1971 240Z - HLS30-23305 2/71
    1971 240Z - HLS30-30855 5/71

  57. #57
    Registered User psdenno's Avatar
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    I had a set of their headlight covers installed on my '71 in '72 and they held up for decades. Just needed to do a little grinding to fit into the headlight scoops.
    Dennis
    1971 240Z - Original Owner
    2010 Infiniti G37 Convertible

  58. #58
    Registered User NVZEE's Avatar
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    Any condensation problem with the headlight covers? I suppose that climate (i.e., Seattle vs Phoenix) and even headlight temperature (incandescent vs 100-watt halogen, etc) could play a roll in that as well.
    1972 240Z

  59. #59
    Registered User Galaxybj's Avatar
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    Never an issue with condensation as there wasn't an "air/water" tight seal. To install you had to file/sand (as psdenno mentioned above) down the edges to get the fit as close to the headlight bucket as possible. Tedious process to get the right fit, but well worth it. I ran 100W Hella halogen headlights.
    Last edited by Galaxybj; 09-26-2014 at 12:46 PM.
    1971 240Z - HLS30-23305 2/71
    1971 240Z - HLS30-30855 5/71

  60. #60
    Registered User psdenno's Avatar
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    As mentioned by Galaxybj, the fit was loose enough to let air blow in and let moisture escape. Never had a problem with condensation. In addition to looking good, they kept the snow out of the headlight nacelles in the winter when I lived in the Midwest.
    Dennis
    1971 240Z - Original Owner
    2010 Infiniti G37 Convertible

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