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Thread: Initial review of MSA weber 40 DCOE carb kit

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Default Initial review of MSA weber 40 DCOE carb kit

    I am trying to install a set of 40mm DCOE webers I got from MSA for my 240Z. The purpose is to get the fuel system up and running before my new L28 gets here.

    I have to say the carbs are beautiful. They came set up as follows:

    30mm venturi
    130 main Fuel Jet
    170 Air corrector
    F11 Emulsion tube
    55F9 idle/slow running mixture jet (I may have to double check this one, it was hard to read at night)

    Naturally it came with a Cannon manifold as standard fare. Here is where I noticed my first initial quality lapse.

    The cannon manifold had very noticeable casting/machining edges that protruded into the bore of each runner that I had to knock down with a file then sandpaper. I got all that smooth as butter after about an hour. When I tried to mount it to the car, it hit my old MSA headers on cylinder number 6 and would not seat onto the head. I had to pull it off and slowly remove material with the Dremel so that it would clear the header. Also, the header was 0.600" thick, and the Cannon is 0.495" thick so I had a hard time getting an equal preload on both parts, but finally after much shaving down of weld material, and washers, I got a nice load on all the bolts.

    My initial impressions of the linkage kit were okay, right up until I noticed my linkage rod that all the arms that actuate each carb bolt to was slightly bent. Which meant that when it was place through all three rod ends it is VERY hard to turn.

    I may have to find another one. Or at least some 0.312" bar stock and make my own.

    The kit came with no return springs at all, just a note.

    I am currently deciding on how I want to run my fuel lines and if I am going return line or not. I have read all the posts on that so I am still making a decision.

    also, very important lesson here so listen up. If you plan to go all fancy smancy and use -AN fitting everywhere like I did prepare to get your wallet gorilla raped! Ouch, Russell is proud of that shiny stuff.

    another note, do not think that a -8 AN fitting (read as 8/16" or a half inch) can fit into a half inch hole, even if it is a 1/2" NPT to -8 AN adapter. I made the mistake of getting too ambitious with my ordering and did not take the time to look at how big -8 hoses are. NPT sizes are called out referring the INNER DIAMETER (as an engineer I should not have forgotten that)

    Keep everything -6 (3/8") and you will be far happier.

    So now I am left to ponder two things.

    What am I going to do about my bent linkage rod?
    Am I going to cut my stock SU linkage rod from the firewall to mate with supplied linkage rod, or run the LOKAR cable kit
    Am I going to run a return line or not.


    So my impressions of the MSA redline kit are mixed. The weber product line is fantastic. But the Cannon and linkage stuff supplied was quickly thrown together.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    When you install, ensure that your linkage from the pedal does not try to turn the throttle valve plates past 90 degrees or you can twist the DCOE's shaft.

    The setting for the linkage should be that the pedal hits the floor just before the throttle valve plate is fully opened.

    Welcome to Weber.
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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Thanks Blue. I will let you know how it goes if you are interested.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Cygnusx1 sells a nice linkage kit should you decide to change it up.

    I'm curious how your progression holes up with the throttle plate. The slightest throttle opening should expose the first downstream progression hole, otherwise you'll have a stumble.

    Good luck!
    2/74 260Z

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I was going to video an example of just that.

    What I did was turn out the lights and shined a bright flashlight into the manifold side of the carb opening. I wanted to see when I would uncover the progression holes just for the reason you mentioned. So far so good. when I applied the slighted amount of pressure to the throttle I got a sliver of light through the first progression hole. I think they may have modified the 151's. Are all butterfies on webers chamfered? This knife edge was a trick to help throttle tip in. (according to the Weber book I am currently reading )
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  6. #6
    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    I was going to video an example of just that.

    What I did was turn out the lights and shined a bright flashlight into the manifold side of the carb opening. I wanted to see when I would uncover the progression holes just for the reason you mentioned. So far so good. when I applied the slighted amount of pressure to the throttle I got a sliver of light through the first progression hole. I think they may have modified the 151's. Are all butterfies on webers chamfered? This knife edge was a trick to help throttle tip in. (according to the Weber book I am currently reading )
    Interesting. If the progression holes are okay, then you are on your way to having a properly-running set of triples! I don't think the throttle valves were chamfered, unless someone modified them. But yes, it is a trick to get the throttle position just right for a smooth tip-in without raising idle speed or enriching the idle mixture.

    Looks like you've run into the typical triple carb installation issues, e.g. mismatched manifold thickness, throttle linkage, intake hitting header flange, etc. I remember the night I decided to slap my triples on. Started the swap around 9 or 10pm and finished around 1 or 2am. I had to hear them run so I started it up with an open header in the middle of the night. Oh the joy!

    2/74 260Z

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    Registered User Travel'n Man's Avatar
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    Wait until you hear those bad boy's fire up!
    Life's a journey; enjoy the ride!

    Mitchell
    L28 - N42 Block w/Flat tops - N42 Rebello Head & Cam - Triple 40 PHH Mikuni's - Headers - Recaro Seats -
    R180 3.9 Diff - Close Ratio 5 Speed - Toyota Vented Brake Upgrade w/ Porterfield High Performance Pads & Shoes

    1972 Datsun 240z
    HLS30-75040


  8. #8
    Registered User Mike W's Avatar
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    I think that you will really like the Webers once you get them dialed in. I purchased my first set decades ago and never had the patience to really understand their principal of operation and the effects of small changes to the different components of the system. In the end they are nothing more than a mechanical computer and once I had that figured out and used a more disciplined process to fine tune them, it actually turned out to be pretty straight forward process to get them to run correctly.

    As a point of reference for you, the new Webers that I installed recently (purchased from Pierce Manifolds, so a differert vendor from yours) came jetted as follows:

    Main 125
    Choke 30mm
    Emulsion tube F11
    Air Corrector 160
    Idle Jet 50F9

    This was actually not the stock configuratiion, but one that I had requested given the starting point of my older Webers. After tuning, and using an AFM, I ended up with these settings that are much more ideal at least for the way my car is configured:

    Main 115
    Choke 30mm
    Emulsion tube F11
    Aircorrector 160
    Idle Jet 55F9

    Initially I did have the off idle stumble but found that the idle jet sizing had the greatest impact on resolving that. Going to a slightly larger jet eliminated 98% of the stumble that I had experienced for years. I'm sure that every car is different but this was how it worked out in my case.

    As to your bent linkage, I actually went to a slightly different setup when I moved to my new Webers, but I believe that my original configuration is similar to if not exactly the same as you received from MSA. I decided to go to a different throttle rod and ended up ordering some 5/16" stainless steel stock from McMaster and just cut it to size. I believe the size of the original rod is actually 8mm, but the 5/16" turned out to work fine. I have the part number somewhere if that will help you. Also, I did have some binding issues with the setup and ended up eliminating the middle "ball joint rod end" that the throttle rod goes through. Because of the stiffness of the SS rod it worked out fine and eliminated a potential point of binding in the system.

    With regard to the OEM linkage, I tried for years to get the OEM setup to work properly and keep the engine period correct in this area, but after switching to a throttle cable and experiencing the difference in drivability, I kicked myself for not doing this years ago. For me, it was the single biggest improvement to the overall drivability of the car and I have no regrets other than wishing I had done it sooner. I think the OEM linkage is actually a good design, but with all of the joints, etc, I just don't think it can compete with the smoothness of a cable.

    On your return line question, I went through the same process of rethinking this again and again. In the end I went without a return and used a FPR that did not require one. I used a Summit FPR that had a range of 3 - 5 PSI and it has worked out great so far. I do have the MSA coated headers and also run a heat shield under the Webers, but at least so far I have had no issues with vapor lock or fuel starvation in general.


    Finally, I think that it was Leon that mentioned the linkage kit from Cygnus. I actually have that kit installed on my car and it is far better and far nicer looking than the stock one from MSA (same one that I used to have). Dave is a great guy to deal with and even went as far as to fabricate an additional arm that I used with my cable setup. I highly endorse his product and he is a great guy to deal with.

    Here's a few pictures of my system that might help.

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    Let me know if I can help you out on anything. I think that you are in for a lot of fun times!!

    Mike.

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Mike it is scary how similar we think!
    I ordered 5/16th rod stock from mcmaster car today as well as a Lokar throttle cable!
    I am fabricating my own fuel rail as we speak but need to track down a drill press to finish.

    I am still on the fence right now about the linkage kit. I like how it looks on your car

    One question. It looks like you made some brackets for return springs on the first and second carb, why not the third?

    We have very similar setuos Mike. I will be chiming in here in this thread to keep you up to date on my install.

    I also have coated headers from MSA and have yet to install my heat shield.


    Very close setups indeed!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Oh where did you get those sweet air cleaners for your stacks. Been looking for those
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  11. #11
    Registered User Mike W's Avatar
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    I got the air horn filters from Pierce. You can see them here:

    http://www.piercemanifolds.com/category_s/172.htm

    On your question about the return springs, I have tried to balance "throttle force" with drivability. With a third spring, there is too much force (in my opinion) on the gas pedal and it gets fatiguing to drive because of that. I will also way that with the old OEM linkage, the addition of a third spring resulted in a very jerky acceleration, especially off of idle. In fact this jerkiness existed even with two springs. The addition of the throttle cable has completely eliminated the jerkiness on acceleration. I have found that 2 springs gives good drivability, reasonable return to idle, and no driving fatigue.

    I also wanted to make the return spring install clean, and so tried to find areas that would accomodate the installaton of a spring end. I ended up having to fabricate some aluminum brackets for the valve cover as well as the throttle arms that Cygnus made to accept the springs and still look pretty good in the engine compartment. In the end, they work pretty well and don't look too obtrusive.

    BTW - Any chance that you are planning to attend the NISMO fest in San Antonio next weekend? My wife and I are planning to go and it would be grewat to finally meet you in person.

    Mike.

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    My weekends are hosed Mike, as my wife is in school on Saturdays, for her masters. So I am babysitting every saturday with my amazingly active 4 year old!

    I would love to go, and one day I am going. I agree, it would be a whole lot of fun to meet you! I have not given up on the Great Texas Z rally. I promised everybody a spring run, but time constraints, and this engine build have taxed me.

    I have also pulled the trigger on the TEXAS 1000 November 11-16, 2012, put on by www.vintagerallies.com

    It is expensive, but I have been saving money every month for a while. And it will be an early 40th birthday present.

    If you can swing it, look into that rally. It is NOT cheap, but it looks amazing!!!!!!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User d240zx2's Avatar
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    Wow! Looks like fun, but way too expensive for this old "retired" dude....
    First & Third owner of HLS30-00721
    B. 01/70 D. 03/12

    New owner of HLS30-15653
    B. 12/70 D.

    Frank in Houston, Texas

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Well normally I would say it was way to expensive for me as well Frank. But I figure I have 7 months to save up for it. And my brother and I are splitting it. Of course that means I have to let him drive my Z, which I have reservations about, but still I only have to come up with half that amount.

    Now back to carbs.

    My order form McMaster CAR came in and the 5/16" mini drive shaft was polished perfection. It turns smoothly in my rod ends on my Cannon manifold. I am expecting my LOKAR cable to come in today or tomorrow. I Still need to find a power wire for my Carter Electric Fuel pump. I mounted it on the vertical plane that holds the rear lower control arm bushing. Seems like a perfect place. Having to fit a fuel filter in that location is going to be a bear though. But that is part of the fun. Both extra wires I have dangling from my fuel sending unit wiring harness do not provide 12 volts when I turn the key, I may need to find another keyed 12 V source.

    I also made good head way on my custom fuel rail. I managed to get the extruded aluminum cut to a good length and both ends tapped to accept the 3/8" NPT fittings. Also got a whole bunch of Russell -6 AN fittings into play with. Still have no idea how I am going to mount the LOKAR cable to the carbs, and I am not sure where return springs are going to mount. I sense more custom metal cutting in my near future.

    Blue I ordered that synchronizer you have listed there. I figured it was a step up from my old Unisyn.

    I will snap some pics soon.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    The "extra wires" near the fuel sending unit need to be energized to support a fuel pump on a 1971. You will find an empty plug near the fuse box that needs to have a hot wire and fuse added to it. Once that is done you should be good to go. I don't remember the color of the wire leading to the empty plug and I don't have access to my car today so maybe someone else can help with the details.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    Can't believe there is that much issue with the linkages on new carbs.Now that I have linkage complete it feels good as far as return pressure and smoothness.
    Maybe I need to start a thread on my Mikuni install to compare!!

    Those wires around the sending unit are the right ones- probably not hooked behind the fuse box area. On my 7
    9/71 the circuit was not complete, but I had a 73 harness laying around that had the rest of the wires. It basically is just a loop circuit to include a fusable link.
    I ordered a pump relay and I'm also going to have a separate switch on the drivers side to turn the pump off at will. I went with the rx7 pump
    Last edited by madkaw; 04-05-2012 at 07:43 AM.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I See, time to dig through the wiring diagram. I think the wire was either black, or green/yellow, which could mean it was green and white but dirty. The blackwire had a male bullet style connector on it.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    Actually it is black with white stripe and a solid green. Looked at them just yesterday
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    My black wire has nothing going to it at all,

    But when I connect a multimeter to the green one, the voltage fluctuates in a set frequency, much like the fuel sending unit. If I were a betting man, I should be tapping into the black/white one. That color combo carries 12V all over the darn car!!!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike W View Post
    The addition of the throttle cable has completely eliminated the jerkiness on acceleration. I have found that 2 springs gives good drivability, reasonable return to idle, and no driving fatigue.
    Could you show us more about how the throttle cable was installed... what it took, or how it was modified - to hook to the accelerator pedal etc.

    thanks,
    Carl B.

  22. #22
    Registered User Travel'n Man's Avatar
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    Life's a journey; enjoy the ride!

    Mitchell
    L28 - N42 Block w/Flat tops - N42 Rebello Head & Cam - Triple 40 PHH Mikuni's - Headers - Recaro Seats -
    R180 3.9 Diff - Close Ratio 5 Speed - Toyota Vented Brake Upgrade w/ Porterfield High Performance Pads & Shoes

    1972 Datsun 240z
    HLS30-75040


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    Registered User Mike W's Avatar
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    So the most complicated part of this for me turned out to be the connection at the carb end, not the pedal. At the pedal, I drilled out the "ball" connection for the initial part of the OEM bell crank and replaced it with a fitting that mated to the Lokar cable. That was pretty straight forward, although I will have to go back through my files to find the exact fitting that I used.

    On the carb end, I managed to find a bracket that mounts to the underside of one of the webers and was designed to acceept a more general purpose throttle cable. I ended up fabricating a small aluminum L bracket that allowed me to adapt this bracket to the Lokar end component. On the firewall, all I needed were some large washers that allowed me to attach the threaded end of the sheath on the Lokar part to the firewall.

    As I recall, I purchased a Weber throttle cable kit some time back from Top End Performance, and that's where I got the bracket. It's pretty simple so I think that it would be fairly easy to fabricate.

    I've included a couple of pictures that might help to illustrate this better, although I don't have any of the pedal area.

    If you want some of the pedal, let me know. I can probably sneak a camera up there to get a shot without too much of an issue.

    Mike.

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    Thanks Mitchell / Mike W.
    I'll have to go look again at the stock pedal assembly - but I think I understand...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Stephen -
    If you do go with a heat shield I did also add a heat barrier to the underside of mine to ensure temps stayed reduced on the fuel bowls - Heat Barrier: Thermo Tec-13575 - just a thought while you are buying and installing.
    Life's a journey; enjoy the ride!

    Mitchell
    L28 - N42 Block w/Flat tops - N42 Rebello Head & Cam - Triple 40 PHH Mikuni's - Headers - Recaro Seats -
    R180 3.9 Diff - Close Ratio 5 Speed - Toyota Vented Brake Upgrade w/ Porterfield High Performance Pads & Shoes

    1972 Datsun 240z
    HLS30-75040


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    Michell, do you have any photos of the Thermo Tec-13575 installed? I'm thinking of doing similar myself.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User Travel'n Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve91tt View Post
    Michell, do you have any photos of the Thermo Tec-13575 installed? I'm thinking of doing similar myself.
    Steve -
    No I don't. It is only approx 1/8" thick and lives on the underside of the heat shield.
    I just cut out a template of the underside of the heat shield cleaned the underside surface, and stuck it right there. That fast and that easy.

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/THE-13575

    • Aluminized Heat Barrier is made up of woven silica with a flexible aluminized finish; the highly reflective surface of the material is capable of withstanding radiant temperatures in excess of 2000 degrees fahrenheit
    • The adhesive backed composite construction material can easily be applied to any surface or wrapped around a hose or wire to make a clean professional appearance
    • Some Typical uses include: firewall, hoods, hoses, doors and anywhere you want to control radiant heat
    Last edited by Travel'n Man; 04-06-2012 at 05:11 AM.
    Life's a journey; enjoy the ride!

    Mitchell
    L28 - N42 Block w/Flat tops - N42 Rebello Head & Cam - Triple 40 PHH Mikuni's - Headers - Recaro Seats -
    R180 3.9 Diff - Close Ratio 5 Speed - Toyota Vented Brake Upgrade w/ Porterfield High Performance Pads & Shoes

    1972 Datsun 240z
    HLS30-75040


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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Sounds great. I'm going to give it a try on my track car. Thanks for the tip.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    You could take it further if you wanted to.

    Buy a simple piece of sheet metal at hardware store and attach it to the heat shield with another bolt in between creating an air barrier between the headers and the carbs. Caine that with the adhesive wrap and you will be seriously protecting your carbs from heat
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Got my fuel rail done today. I love it will take some pics soon
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Very interesting info in this thread. I used the stock linkage and made my own pieces from the rod out of the firewall to the rest. Let me know what you think. If you are fabbing your own pieces, use 7073 aluminum, which is one of the harder alloys. Anything softer will start wallowing out any holes in a short time, and totally defeat all your precise adjustments. My heat shield is a sandwich of .090 aluminum with strips of header wrap in between the two plates. Very effective at keeping the header heat from the carbs.
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    72 240-- stock motor and drivetrain, 50,500 orig. miles

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Default Fuel rail first fitting

    I have finished my initial brackets for my custom fuel rail. I took my inspiration from the OEM brackets that hold the OEM fuel rail.

    I need to round the corners and sand and paint them. Also, I am not happy with the supplied fittings that came with the DCOE's. I ordered some straight banjo fittings from CArbs Direct to clean up my installation. As you can see with piece of scrap fuel line shown, the bend that extreme is not desirable. I have been shortening the hose from the front of the fuel rail to the regulator on the front fender, and I almost have it to where I like it.

    I still need to swap which sides the carbs actuate from and install my heat shield, but that should not be an issue. I still need to fabricate a bracket for the front of the engine to hold the fuel near the valve cover, and wire up my pump.

    But here it is so far.







    Things are shaping up! I ordered a new arm to actuate my rod.

    That linkage rod came from McMasters, and it is was a 5/16" mini drive shaft. It is CRAZY straight. However, I warn you guys. I selected next day air on a 22 dollars drive shaft. Thinking well I want this fast, as I have a car show I really want to enter on the 21st so I want to get this quickly! 43 DAMN DOLLARS to next day air it.. OUCH! You see they let you select next day air, but they tell you it will be added to your price and billed. Your total will be mailed to you in a few days! Well live and learn on that one.

    HAHAHA
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    I ordered a new arm to actuate my rod.
    Oh yea .... that's what I need

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    You know after reading it again, I could have worded that better!

    Hahaha
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User Travel'n Man's Avatar
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    Nice ^^^

    Great looking install - I'm really fired up for you when you get to start those Triples up!
    Life's a journey; enjoy the ride!

    Mitchell
    L28 - N42 Block w/Flat tops - N42 Rebello Head & Cam - Triple 40 PHH Mikuni's - Headers - Recaro Seats -
    R180 3.9 Diff - Close Ratio 5 Speed - Toyota Vented Brake Upgrade w/ Porterfield High Performance Pads & Shoes

    1972 Datsun 240z
    HLS30-75040


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    But here it is so far.


    I really wish I hadn't looked at that picture - - - I "refreshed" my webers, engine and engine compartment about 17 years ago..and they are over do for a rework now... I forgot how good they looked then... another summer project ...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    I'm jealous of how much room you have to install the intake bolts. The mikuni short manifold is a total bitch. On the other hand I wouldn't have room for my cold air intake with that long of an intake .
    That is a beautiful set- up and inspires me to get mine done.
    Waiting on the UPS man!!!!!!
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    240 Z Owner/Nut Case dhoneycutt's Avatar
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    Zedyone...I really like how you set that up. I for one would like to hear more details on the fuel rail!!! That looks sweeeeeeet!
    David A. Honeycutt
    United States Air Force, Retired


    1972 Datsun 240Z HLS3079961
    A Work in Progress

    2004 Mazda 6s
    2009 BMW 535xi

    The Only Difference Between Men & Boys... Is The Price Of Their Toys!

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    Well here is an update on the install.

    I laid on the ground for about an hour last night with the electric fuel pump in one hand and the pump pre-filter in the other. I pondered how to get them in there safely and smartly so that the hoses are not too kinked, and it was as OEM as I could make it. I finally found away to route the darn fuel lines without disturbing any of the factory fittings, clamps, or hard lines. I am very pleased how this turned out.

    Next I turned my attention to the electrical side. I really hate messing with wiring, but since I could not get any power to my rear green wire, AND I could not find where that particular wire surfaced again under the dash, I pulled off my center console (had to do that anyway, as I need to decide what I am going to do with my choke cables) Low and behold, I found this little jewel still taped up with factory blue datsun electrical tape and tucked away. Well I think it was from the factory.

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    It has a green wire, AND a black/white wire. The green wire acts weird when the key is turned and fluctuates a millivolt reading constantly. However, the black/white wire, which is 12V in darn near every other place on the car is a switched 12V supply here as well. Eureka!

    I still need to run the wire to the pump in the most unobtrusive way I can. I would like to run it inside the car all the way to the back, but I may run it next to the factory fuel lines so I can keep it wire tired close to the tranny tunnel. We will see.

    dhoneycutt,

    Thanks very much. You should see it now. I spent an hour polishing it with some aluminum polish last night. Looks like chrome for the moment.

    I purchased a 30" length of extruded aluminum tubing. It had a 1/2" hole through it. It was round on one side and square on the other. I cut it to be about the length of the valve cover, so I could use 90 deg bends to go around it. The brackets I made allow me to get access to the valve cover bolts without taking off the fuel rail. I also used longer studs in the intake so I could remove the fuel rail without taking off torque from the intake.

    I used the square side to attach my carb fittings (drilled and tapped 3/8" NPT using Russell -AN fittings) I thrn drilled and tapped a 1/8" NPT for the autometer fuel gauge after the third carburetor. I tapped Both ends of the line to accept 3/8" NPT. Right now the front end has an NPT fitting to a 90 deg bend that goes to the fuel regulator. I have since fabricated a support bracket to hold the fuel line secure so it is not dangling in the front of the engine. The back of the fuel rail is plugged, but I think I may run a return line in the future to factory spot next to the alternator. I can run a -4 AN line with a restricter in it to give the pump something to push against. This will keep the fuel circulating. So far I have not altered the car in any way permanently, and can go back to SU's in an afternoon. My goal is to not cut, chop, or bend anything I do not have to.

    I may remove the fuel rail one more time to manufacture a way to attach return springs... but I have not decided on that yet. My goal is to be running before the 21'st, which is a great car show I went to 2 years ago and got beat by an old celica.. which was a shame!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    you should already have a green wire run all the way to the back of the car already. Look at your wires running to your sending unit, the wire should be there somewhere
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    No it is there bud, but I cannot find where that wire is IN THE CABIN. I know the rear wiring harness comes into view again around the passenger door. I have no idea where that wire goes inside the car is my issue. It is not getting any power that is for sure. I know the green wire is suppose to get 12V, but unless I find it in the cabin and feed it some power, I will have to run a wire.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    240 Z Owner/Nut Case dhoneycutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    You should see it now. I spent an hour polishing it with some aluminum polish last night. Looks like chrome for the moment.

    I purchased a 30" length of extruded aluminum tubing. It had a 1/2" hole through it.
    Please! more pictures!!!

    Where did you purchase the extruded aluminum tubing? I was thinking of something like this but had not seen it done on non-fuel injected engines before. ( I know, I live a very sheltered life)
    David A. Honeycutt
    United States Air Force, Retired


    1972 Datsun 240Z HLS3079961
    A Work in Progress

    2004 Mazda 6s
    2009 BMW 535xi

    The Only Difference Between Men & Boys... Is The Price Of Their Toys!

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I went to ebay motors and typed in the search engine "universal fuel rail"

    Got more hits than I care to mention...

    http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_...l+rail&_sacat=
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    If your using a fuel pump relay then do you really need to find the exact route of that wire. If you find where it comes off the ignition switch and where it goes towards the back of the car then you have enough.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    I have not wired in a relay at all. I have seen the green wire in the back, and I do not care how it gets back there, but I have NO idea where it is in the cabin. After it goes in the chassis in the back it is GONE. I guess I could start pulling interior bits off to find it, but I really do not want to!

    If I knew where it was, I could tap into it. I still want to wire in a relay, but I will worry about that after I get the car running.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User idoxlr8's Avatar
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    Great information, Thanks.
    I'll be ordering my Webers shortly and this thread is great reference
    Dean

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    Under the glove box corner of the cabin. I think it is a seperate wire plug and it's green, just fish around all those wire bundles under the dash by the glove box, you will find it.

    I might wire my relay in tomorrow and I will take pics if I do.

    The UPS man showed up today with a Mikuni install kit
    Last edited by madkaw; 04-09-2012 at 06:16 PM.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Default Jan 71 Wires out of dash centre at fuse box

    Here is the assembly coming out of the dash on a 1971 Jan 240z.

    You can see the green and black leads taped back with blue tape. This is in front of the fuse panel.


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    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Bingo guys I found where the rear green wire ends up.

    I hooked up a voltmeter to the green wire in back and propped up the meter near the rear tire.

    Then ran a 12v hot jumper straight to the battery and used that as my ping signal

    I looked for green wires and low and behold I found my connector and started to get 12.7 volts back to the pump wire HUZZAH!

    I just need to hook it up to a 12V switched power (like the black/white wire directly next to it on the same plastic plug shown in blues
    Picture) and fit a 20 amp fuse and relay and presto! Power to the pump!

    This really goes to show the value of an original car who has all stock wiring
    Last edited by Zedyone_kenobi; 04-09-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Quote Originally Posted by madkaw View Post
    Under the glove box corner of the cabin. I think it is a seperate wire plug and it's green, just fish around all those wire bundles under the dash by the glove box, you will find it.

    I might wire my relay in tomorrow and I will take pics if I do.

    The UPS man showed up today with a Mikuni install kit
    Oh yeah let the fabrication party begin!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  51. #51
    Registered User rocketdog's Avatar
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    My Webers are due to arrive in a few days from MSA (even on SALE!). Been pondering this for some time and have stacks of copies of threads from this and other websites. Lots of good feedback, ideas, problems and solutions! It will be a fun project with no deadlines.
    Late 260Z; 2005 Daytona Blue paint; Triple Webers 40DCOE; competition springs w/Tokico HP shocks; Koenig 17x7 Crosshairs w/ Yokohama AVS 215/45 WR 17; Original owner; Show car w/ many awards

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    best of luck buddy!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    UPDATE:

    I finally was able to get back into the garage late tonight.

    I got my throttle cable hooked up, which was of course, not a direct fit and required some clever drilling and filing. With that being said, I have a new name for my pain...

    It is called the heat shield.

    How the sam HELL do you get that thing bolted on with those stupid little springs that came in the weber kit. There is just no room to install them!!!

    Any tricks!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  54. #54
    Supporting Member Diseazd's Avatar
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    Check with Eiji......He gets a number of different heat shields from Japan.....he might have a solution to your problem.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7600346077563/
    ______________________________________________
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7603350695459/

    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I did the next best thing, I read the directions! I got her on.

    Today I just about finished up the install. I have all the electrics hooked up. Verified all the fittings are tightened. I have the throttle cable ran, and attached to the rod. I have all the arms adjusted to exactly the same length. The only thing I have to do is get a longer return spring somewhere, as my SU return spring is not going to work out as well as I thought it would. Then turn the key and check for fuel pressure and leaks!

    Then it is set the carbs at a good starting setup and let her rip!!!

    Very exciting!

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    I am looking forward to hearing her run. This has been a long process, as every single part going on the car had to be modified or made to work with the OEM datsun stuff. I guess if I were not abject to cutting up my car, it could have gone faster, but the OEM car lasted 42 years, and I do not mean to do anything that will not last another 42.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    You need a chrome - LED Flashlight to snap into what was the fuel filter holder.... Or maybe a Mr. K bobble head...

    It just looks like something is missing there... actually it is... but it shouldn't look that way...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Last edited by Carl Beck; 04-15-2012 at 06:27 PM.

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    Not sure what heat shield you are using so I may not be of much help, but I will tell you how I have done this on my setup. And you are correct, it is tricky.

    I have one of the aluminum heat shields that were made for Webers and I believe was sourced from Japan. I learned about it on this forum but would have to go and do a search to find the thread. It was actually pretty expensive for what it is, but it does work well and although tricky to install, it can be done.

    So I start by installing each of the carbs using the springs, nuts as well as a washer that I place between the spring and carb itself. I leave the bottom ones as loose as I can get them without having the nuts fall off.

    I then maneuver the heat shield onto the studs by starting from the front end making sure that the shield is sandwiched between the washer and the carb. Once that first stud is in place, I will tighten up the nut a bit by hand. Now as you move the heat shield in place you just have to make sure that you have it sandwiched between the washers and carbs and once I have all of that aligned, I will tighter the last nut (closest to the firewall). You really cannot see in this area so you end up having to do this all by feel, but I found that after doing it the first time and developing a process, subsequent installs were pretty easy.

    The other challenge is tightening the nuts as there is not a lot of room to get a wrench in there. I believe that I use a 3/8 drive socket with extension and it just barely fits, but I can manage to get everything tight.

    In any case, hope that helps. If you need it I can look up the vendor where I purchased the shield as I don't recall off hand where I sourced that part.

    Mike.

  58. #58
    Registered User rocketdog's Avatar
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    Looks great..........now I'm starting mine. Are you going with the stock distributer with vacuum disconnected? I'm lookng at the Mallory w/ mechanical advance ($400 from Summit; $500 from MSA) Got the SU's and header off. Sprayed PB Blaster on stud nuts and they came off very easy. Easy loosen w/socket then unscrewed w/ fingers. Had to disconnect the streering at the coupler to allow my header to slide enough to clear the studs. Have new studs on order but what's there look great. First time header was off since installed in 1978. I'm going with Mike W's Fuel Log w/ braided SS lines.
    Late 260Z; 2005 Daytona Blue paint; Triple Webers 40DCOE; competition springs w/Tokico HP shocks; Koenig 17x7 Crosshairs w/ Yokohama AVS 215/45 WR 17; Original owner; Show car w/ many awards

  59. #59
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I am using the same heat shield sourced from Japan. Right now I have it installed with Zero springs, and just use washers and bolts. I found it easier to get a socket on the bottom nuts if I took the air horns off. REally gives you some hand room to maneuver. That washer technique is a good one Mike. My problem is when I installed my studs I used that hardcore aviation grade locktite my dad gave me. And I installed them so that their is not much stud length on the outside...(), But now that I have everything held in place, I could probably remove one at a time and install the spring on each one.

    Other than that, I only need to find some return springs today at a local parts store.

    Carl, Mr. K bobblehead would be perfect! hahah
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketdog View Post
    Looks great..........now I'm starting mine. Are you going with the stock distributer with vacuum disconnected? I'm lookng at the Mallory w/ mechanical advance ($400 from Summit; $500 from MSA) Got the SU's and header off. Sprayed PB Blaster on stud nuts and they came off very easy. Easy loosen w/socket then unscrewed w/ fingers. Had to disconnect the streering at the coupler to allow my header to slide enough to clear the studs. Have new studs on order but what's there look great. First time header was off since installed in 1978. I'm going with Mike W's Fuel Log w/ braided SS lines.
    Jeebus! You can have a fully-programmable crank-triggered ignition system for the amount and ditch the distributor altogether. That is what I'm in the process of doing on my 260Z.
    2/74 260Z

  61. #61
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    You can set up a crank trigger ignition for 399 dollars? I did not know that. I am running a recurved factory dizzy at the moment, no vacuum advance.

    I was thinking of going mallory as well, but will hold off on pulling that trigger until I have the carbs more in tune. Never change that many things at once! You never want to second guess your carbs AND your ignition if you have a choice.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  62. #62
    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    You can set up a crank trigger ignition for 399 dollars? I did not know that. I am running a recurved factory dizzy at the moment, no vacuum advance.

    I was thinking of going mallory as well, but will hold off on pulling that trigger until I have the carbs more in tune. Never change that many things at once! You never want to second guess your carbs AND your ignition if you have a choice.
    Yep.

    I got a crank trigger wheel and sensor mount for $150, EDIS module, coil pack and VR sensor for $50, the Megajolt controller for $175, and assorted wiring/relays add up to about $25. So yes, crank triggered ignition for $400 is easily possible. With that said, it's possible to get the EDIS parts, trigger wheel, and sensor mount much cheaper if you do some fab work yourself. I bought everything ready to go since I didn't have the time to trawl junkyards and fab custom parts. Meaning you can have crank triggered ignition for $250-300.

    I was ready to go to a ZX distributor until I realized this.
    2/74 260Z

  63. #63
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    That is awesome! Thanks Leon!

    UPDATE:

    I figured out my return spring situation, and for now I am happy, but I forsee a much cooler solution in the future using the fuel rail. However, that is hooked up.
    I fired up the CARTER pump, and yes, it is a bit loud, but once the car is running I do not think it will be an issue.

    I had a leak at the pump I had to tinker with to get to seal. Finally found some yellow teflon tape approved for fuel and it sealed it up tight. Absolutely NO AN fitting leaked on ounce, so that is money well spent.

    I had no other fuel leaks save one. I noticed some fuel on my heat shield... and then noticed that number two carb was dripping a bit. I had the pressure up to 3 psi at the time. Holley reg works with ease.

    I am guessing my float could be off, which would not surprise me, as absolutely NOTHING has been right yet with this install. Every single thing required some form of modification to work.

    So I am guessing that in order to check the float, I have to pull the top cover off. Before I set out and do a huge search, is there a quick way to set the float?
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  64. #64
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Thought about it laying in bed this morning. I have the rear of the car jacked up quite a bit so that may be the cause of my leak. I will check today
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  65. #65
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Okay, I could not sleep, so I got up and took the car off jack stands and adjusted the fuel pressure to 2-2.5 psi, and let the pump run for about 30 seconds.

    Zero leaks from anywhere. I am going to set the idle mixture screws to 1.5 turns out, the idle speed screws to 1/2 turn from contact with the throttle, and have a go today after work!!!

    Wahoo, this is getting exciting!

    Well maybe I should put those springs in the bottom of the carbs holding the heat shield instead of a washer... hummm, okay after that it is vroom vroom time.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  66. #66
    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Some Webers leak where aux venturi couples to the body of the carb and fuel passes through to the main circuit.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  67. #67
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Is that a defect blue, or is just an inherent Weber 'thing'
    I will keep an eye on it.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    On some versions with the spring retention clips, the seal is not so good due to weak spring.

    Also if the fuel is too high, it may slosh through the main circuit.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  69. #69
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    UPDATE:

    I got the car running last night. I have not balanced them yet, but it starts and idles very easily. I do not think my return spring is strong enough though. It idles smoothly, but does not idle any lower than 1400 rpm. But I have today to work on that. I will start by getting the air flow balanced then work on getting the air fuel correct.

    I can see the balancing act here. YOu want to get the carbs balanced with the idle low enough while not uncovering the first progression hole. It is a very interesting set of interdependencies...

    I am really looking forward to this. I am VERY happy I have a wideband O2 installed right now!!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  70. #70
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Drove the car today. WHAHOOOOO

    I first disconnected the linkages from the throttle bar on each carb. Then I unscrewed progression hole cap. I adjusted each throttle plate so that none of the first hole was uncovered, but was just going to be uncovered upon first movement of the throttle shaft. I then unscrewed the idle mixture screws one full turn as a way to get the car to idle at all with only a 1/4 or 1/2 turn from fully seated.

    THe car settled into a nice 1100 rpm idle once fully warm. I could not fit my new synchronizer on the air horns as there is just no room, so I ordered the snorkel for it today. So I used my unisyn.

    Now as you know Weber guys, the only way to increase or decrease air flow into the car is to move the throttle shafts. BUT that may uncover a progression hole. My solution to this was to start over and adjust all the idle speed screws so that I had a little more play area before I uncovered a progression hole and then start to sync the air flow. Well long story short, I got them all pretty close, but my unisyn varies from run to run, so I am going to stop fiddling with air flow until I can use my real tool. First drive, I was ultra lean. I would go completely dead with any application of the throttle at all. Like shutting down the engine all together, and my wideband would read 20:1. OUCH. So I adjusted the idle mixture screws a half turn at a time until I was reading about 12:1 at idle. Then I set out on my next drive.

    WOW, I was thrilled with the response. Pulls very nicely. I was almost scared to rev it with part throttle to my 4500 rpm point. But I did in second gear and it was smoooooooooth.

    Let me reiterate. I have ZERO popping through my exhaust at 4500 rpm at part throttle.

    My only problem now is that I do not have the pedal adjusted correctly, as I never get full throttle. I will need to get my wife out there to help me do that. But the car needs no choke at all to start from cold. I have not even checked the timing, but the driveability is amazing.

    THe sound.. heee..heee.. I am still smiling.

    I just wish I could get them to idle lower. I am stuck idling at 1000 rpm now. I will play with that idle speed circuit again when I have more time. But she is running and looking great.

    Oh I discovered slow leak on my fuel filter added before the pump by the tank! DRAT. I should have used teflon tape on those fittings.

    And now the pics!





    I took off that filter holder just for you Carl!

    Last edited by Zedyone_kenobi; 04-18-2012 at 03:46 PM.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  71. #71
    Brian
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    Glad to hear they are running good right off the bat. Love the look of your engine bay. I just got mine adjusted and running pretty smooth. I just took the air horns off on the back carb to sync carbs then put them back on after and seems to be good. The snorkel would be nice though. Now drive it an enjoy.

    Brian

  72. #72
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    There are a few things you will notice right off the bat - no acceleration surge (dumping the linkage is not a bad thing / once you have tried the cable) - immediate torque difference - and that triple carb sound. It'll put a smile on your face every time you drive your car......you gotta love it!!

    From my understanding on my Mikuni's the correct idle is approx 1000 rpm's - you may not need to go any lower - what are the idle spec's for Webers?
    Last edited by Travel'n Man; 04-18-2012 at 05:43 PM.
    Life's a journey; enjoy the ride!

    Mitchell
    L28 - N42 Block w/Flat tops - N42 Rebello Head & Cam - Triple 40 PHH Mikuni's - Headers - Recaro Seats -
    R180 3.9 Diff - Close Ratio 5 Speed - Toyota Vented Brake Upgrade w/ Porterfield High Performance Pads & Shoes

    1972 Datsun 240z
    HLS30-75040


  73. #73
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    Don't know what idle is right for webers. I have read about 900 rpm is normal.

    I had no surge on my Ztherapy SUs bud. I did have surge on my original carbs. The surge I believe comes from worn throttle linkage rods.

    Still the cable feels great!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  74. #74
    Registered User rocketdog's Avatar
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    Small detail that you'll get to, but take some acetone and a rag and get that bright blue marking paint off the top of each carb. Comes off easily. Unsrewed my old manifold studs today...piece of cake... took only 1/2 hour. New ones arrive tomorrow. Started assembling the linkage onto new maifold and switching the sides on the carbs where the linkage connects. Have a sheetmetal company as one of my tenants who will fab a heat shield for me out of SS or aluminum...for free...which anyone can afford. Still planning out my SS braided lines and AN fittings. Can't wait to hear and feel the difference.
    Late 260Z; 2005 Daytona Blue paint; Triple Webers 40DCOE; competition springs w/Tokico HP shocks; Koenig 17x7 Crosshairs w/ Yokohama AVS 215/45 WR 17; Original owner; Show car w/ many awards

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    Your high idle is exacerbated by the high initial timing you are running. I wouldn't recommend dropping it back down though. Nice job on the install. Looks great!

    Steve

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    That occurred to me Doradox, and your right, I would not come off 14 Deg BTDC. I plan to run about 17 on the new motor with a re curved dizzy or a mallory.

    I just need to figure out the jetting now. I am still getting a lean stumble when I jab the throttle as fast as I can at low rpm. This is normal for the most part as the intake velocity is not optimum, but I have not done any pulls while monitoring the wide band yet. I am just do thrilled to have a car that is happy to rev and drive and sound so amazing. The midrange is a definite improvement over the SU's. It feels very strong!

    I am still playing with the linkage and spring tension to get it where I like it. It is all about angles!

    I still get a bit of pooling on my heat shield, but I think that only happens when I slam open the throttles and the engine falls flat. I mean it makes sense. I am dumping gas into the main circuit via the accelerator pump while the intake velocity drops to nil. Where else is the gas going to go but out of the carb?
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  77. #77
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I love these carbs!!!!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  78. #78
    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    Drove the car today. WHAHOOOOO

    I first disconnected the linkages from the throttle bar on each carb. Then I unscrewed progression hole cap. I adjusted each throttle plate so that none of the first hole was uncovered, but was just going to be uncovered upon first movement of the throttle shaft. I then unscrewed the idle mixture screws one full turn as a way to get the car to idle at all with only a 1/4 or 1/2 turn from fully seated.

    THe car settled into a nice 1100 rpm idle once fully warm. I could not fit my new synchronizer on the air horns as there is just no room, so I ordered the snorkel for it today. So I used my unisyn.

    Now as you know Weber guys, the only way to increase or decrease air flow into the car is to move the throttle shafts. BUT that may uncover a progression hole. My solution to this was to start over and adjust all the idle speed screws so that I had a little more play area before I uncovered a progression hole and then start to sync the air flow. Well long story short, I got them all pretty close, but my unisyn varies from run to run, so I am going to stop fiddling with air flow until I can use my real tool. First drive, I was ultra lean. I would go completely dead with any application of the throttle at all. Like shutting down the engine all together, and my wideband would read 20:1. OUCH. So I adjusted the idle mixture screws a half turn at a time until I was reading about 12:1 at idle. Then I set out on my next drive.

    WOW, I was thrilled with the response. Pulls very nicely. I was almost scared to rev it with part throttle to my 4500 rpm point. But I did in second gear and it was smoooooooooth.

    Let me reiterate. I have ZERO popping through my exhaust at 4500 rpm at part throttle.

    My only problem now is that I do not have the pedal adjusted correctly, as I never get full throttle. I will need to get my wife out there to help me do that. But the car needs no choke at all to start from cold. I have not even checked the timing, but the driveability is amazing.

    THe sound.. heee..heee.. I am still smiling.

    I just wish I could get them to idle lower. I am stuck idling at 1000 rpm now. I will play with that idle speed circuit again when I have more time. But she is running and looking great.

    Oh I discovered slow leak on my fuel filter added before the pump by the tank! DRAT. I should have used teflon tape on those fittings.
    That's awesome, gotta love triples! It's good to hear that your problem is finally alleviated, as I've thought it was a lean mixture issue from the moment your problems appeared.

    Never use PTFE tape on fuel fittings! It will break down and eventually cause a leak without you knowing.

    The 1000rpm idle is fine. Progression holes are what really determine idle speed (along with static timing), since correct transition circuit operation is dependent upon initial throttle position. If your throttle plates are oriented correctly, I wouldn't touch a thing.

    For syncronization, as you saw, the Weber SK tool is head and shoulders above the Unisyn. I'd never even try to use a Unisyn on a set of triples, let alone dual SUs! You should be able to fit te SK just fine with the air horns removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    That occurred to me Doradox, and your right, I would not come off 14 Deg BTDC. I plan to run about 17 on the new motor with a re curved dizzy or a mallory.

    I just need to figure out the jetting now. I am still getting a lean stumble when I jab the throttle as fast as I can at low rpm. This is normal for the most part as the intake velocity is not optimum, but I have not done any pulls while monitoring the wide band yet. I am just do thrilled to have a car that is happy to rev and drive and sound so amazing. The midrange is a definite improvement over the SU's. It feels very strong!

    I am still playing with the linkage and spring tension to get it where I like it. It is all about angles!

    I still get a bit of pooling on my heat shield, but I think that only happens when I slam open the throttles and the engine falls flat. I mean it makes sense. I am dumping gas into the main circuit via the accelerator pump while the intake velocity drops to nil. Where else is the gas going to go but out of the carb?
    Intake velocity does not drop to zero unless your engine isn't spinning. You should be able to floor the throttles in high gear and low rpm and have your car lug, but not shut off. This is discussed in Keith Franck's "White Paper" for tuning the Weber DCOE, in the Sidedraft Central "Files" section. You can eliminate all stumbles as well if you read and follow along!

    Oh, and video or it never happened.
    2/74 260Z

  79. #79
    Registered User rocketdog's Avatar
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    Boy, Zedyone, you do have a fug snit between the air horns and the strut! Just tested the fit on my late 260 and there must be 6 inches to the strut. Got the manifolds installed today. New studs went in easy. Used that copper spray but masked everything off. Glad I did as it goes everywhere like spray paint. Manifolds fit pretty easily, just had to grind off a bit of one corner of the Cannon intake.
    Late 260Z; 2005 Daytona Blue paint; Triple Webers 40DCOE; competition springs w/Tokico HP shocks; Koenig 17x7 Crosshairs w/ Yokohama AVS 215/45 WR 17; Original owner; Show car w/ many awards

  80. #80
    Registered User Mike W's Avatar
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    A couple of comments on the fuel pooling you have observed on your heat shield.

    I have seen this same phenomena on my setup with two different sets of Webers. I did some research on this on the Sidedraft Central news group and apparently fuel leaks out of the front of the DCOE's is a fairly common problem. There is a thead where you can read about it here:

    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...l/message/5412

    Given that I had the same issue I decided to try and fabricate the rubber washers that the author of the post above identified as a solution to this problem. They were a little tedious to fabricate, but I made and installed them to see if they would resolve the leak issue. I would say that I had some minor improvement but could never really get the washers to fit tightly enough to eliminate the problem. So I decided to go another route.

    I took some pretty precise measurements of the air horn OD, the choke body ID, and a few other areas and identified a couple of O Ring sizes that could be used to really seal off this area. I purchased some O Rings from McMaster Carr that had and ID of 44 mm and were 2 mm thick. The McMaster part number was 9262K529. I also purchased some o ring lubricant which I applied to the parts before assembly.

    So I put the O Ring over the inner part of the air horn before inserting into the carb body. I find that it takes a little pressure to "force" the O Ring into the channel between the air horn and the carb body, but you can actually feel it snap into place when it is fully seated. Tighten down the air horns and you are good to go.

    After driving with this configuration I can say that it solves 95% of the problem. I might see a few drops of liquid on the heat shield after 50 - 100 miles of driving so I think this largely solves the issue.

    On the Sidedraft Central forum however you will also read about the notches that are cut into the carb body to allow for alignment of the choke and aux venturi and the opening they provide to exacerbate the fuel leak problem. I posted some questions about this issue and proposed fix which you can read about here:

    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...l/message/5456

    Presently my solution only uses the O Rings and does nothing specific for the notch issue, but from my experience so far it looks like this solves 95% of the problem.

    Hope that helps.

    Mike.

  81. #81
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    LeonV Video is coming Saturday!
    I have to get my Go Pro working again. After I find it. Where ever it is...

    I may just use the iphone! Its HD and my go pro is not.

    Also I am not using the white PTFE tape Leon. I have some aviation yellow pipe thread tape. IT says it is fully compatible with silicones, hydraulics and petroleum products. So I hope I am okay. I have a hard time getting NPT fittings to NOT leak. I only seem to have about a 70% success rate regardless of how hard I torque them.

    Mike, GREAT thread, and my pooling is very minor right now. Almost a non issue. But I have the air horns that slide all the way into and around the venturi (or is it the choke). I have the 151's DCOE

    I am pretty sure I need to up my main jet. I was reading Mr Franks paper and at low rpm (2000 rpm) in 4th gear holding the throttle steady my AFR were right at 14. He recommends 12.5, and I tend to agree with him on that. I am currently running a 130 main and 170 air corrector. My overall driving is darn near flawless. I do have a hint of a hesitation on the progression around 1800 rpm, but I mean it is slight, and not consistent. I think I am only a few jets and a few twists of the screws to have a perfectly fine running set of webers. Really the more I read, the more I think the hesitation issue in mid rpm thing is blown out of proportion. It seems a perfectly logical thing to tune out. My car was darn near running perfectly 30 minutes from first starting it. The Webers are do darn Logical. I absolutely LOVE them.

    Before I mess with jets though, I am going to verify fuel level of the floats. Not sure if I am going to do it the weber way, or the Mr. Frank way. I do not know where to get a piece of acrylic that small.
    Last edited by Zedyone_kenobi; 04-20-2012 at 04:56 AM.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  82. #82
    Registered User olzed's Avatar
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    Regarding NPT threads leaking. I tried thread tape on NPT and BSP hydraulic fittings, many times, but always went back to using hemp.
    I owned and worked on excavators for 30+ years, and always used plumbers hemp on tapered thread fittings. Just a few strands teased out and wound around,to half fill the thread, will give a fitting that can be tightened into a position that suits, and will not leak with pressure in excess of 2000 psi.
    Thread tape seems to compress too much and gives a not too positive feel when tightening the fitting. If you are using a bend that has to finish in a certain position, hemp will give you that ability, and can even be backed out a little and still not leak.
    Thread tape will be cut into a useless mess when the fitting is screwed in, whereas hemp fills the thread and will not be squeezed out.
    I still have a bundle of hemp that I use when the need arises. It's 'old school' but still does the job.
    FWIW

    Brian.
    Last edited by olzed; 04-20-2012 at 12:45 PM.

  83. #83
    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    LeonV Video is coming Saturday!
    I have to get my Go Pro working again. After I find it. Where ever it is...

    I may just use the iphone! Its HD and my go pro is not.

    Also I am not using the white PTFE tape Leon. I have some aviation yellow pipe thread tape. IT says it is fully compatible with silicones, hydraulics and petroleum products. So I hope I am okay. I have a hard time getting NPT fittings to NOT leak. I only seem to have about a 70% success rate regardless of how hard I torque them.

    Mike, GREAT thread, and my pooling is very minor right now. Almost a non issue. But I have the air horns that slide all the way into and around the venturi (or is it the choke). I have the 151's DCOE

    I am pretty sure I need to up my main jet. I was reading Mr Franks paper and at low rpm (2000 rpm) in 4th gear holding the throttle steady my AFR were right at 14. He recommends 12.5, and I tend to agree with him on that. I am currently running a 130 main and 170 air corrector. My overall driving is darn near flawless. I do have a hint of a hesitation on the progression around 1800 rpm, but I mean it is slight, and not consistent. I think I am only a few jets and a few twists of the screws to have a perfectly fine running set of webers. Really the more I read, the more I think the hesitation issue in mid rpm thing is blown out of proportion. It seems a perfectly logical thing to tune out. My car was darn near running perfectly 30 minutes from first starting it. The Webers are do darn Logical. I absolutely LOVE them.

    Before I mess with jets though, I am going to verify fuel level of the floats. Not sure if I am going to do it the weber way, or the Mr. Frank way. I do not know where to get a piece of acrylic that small.
    I'm glad you have discovered the inherent "awesome-ness" of the Weber DCOE!

    With regard to float setting, Keith makes and sells the tool for $40 or so through his online listings. I'm planning on getting some Hypojets and possibly e-tubes. He is local to me and I've offered up my Z to do some e-tube testing.
    2/74 260Z

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    This thread is really getting me worked up to get my Mikunis going. Sounds like my shorty manifold was the only option if you want a cold air box since things are so tight with the Webers.
    I also wonder if the Mikunis will be easier to dial in since they have accelerator pumps.
    I hope you spend some money to dial your Webers in on a dyno, I think it would be worth the money, plus interesting reading for us!
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madkaw View Post
    This thread is really getting me worked up to get my Mikunis going. Sounds like my shorty manifold was the only option if you want a cold air box since things are so tight with the Webers.
    I also wonder if the Mikunis will be easier to dial in since they have accelerator pumps.
    I hope you spend some money to dial your Webers in on a dyno, I think it would be worth the money, plus interesting reading for us!
    Webers have accelerator pumps too, the only difference between the two being that Weber uses a piston-in-cylinder pump while Mikuni uses a diaphragm type.

    Dyno tuning may help, but diligently using a wideband should get you 97% of the way there. The wideband essentially pays itself off!
    2/74 260Z

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Yup, the wideband is spot on the best investment you can make with triples.

    I have been reading more of Francks info, and I do not think I need to go bigger on my primary jet. I am running a 130 now, and from everything I have seen that is large for 400cc of cylinder. I may have too large of an air corrector which directly effects how much vacuum it takes to move the fuel up the emulsion tube cavity. It is more of a vacuum controlled bleed off. Franck says NEVER use the air corrector to correct the AFR on the top end directly, that is the main fuel jets job. But the air corrector will control when the main circuit comes in.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    Yup, the wideband is spot on the best investment you can make with triples.

    I have been reading more of Francks info, and I do not think I need to go bigger on my primary jet. I am running a 130 now, and from everything I have seen that is large for 400cc of cylinder. I may have too large of an air corrector which directly effects how much vacuum it takes to move the fuel up the emulsion tube cavity. It is more of a vacuum controlled bleed off. Franck says NEVER use the air corrector to correct the AFR on the top end directly, that is the main fuel jets job. But the air corrector will control when the main circuit comes in.
    Exactly! The main really only controls WOT mixture, the rest of the dynamic range is controlled by the e-tube, idle and transition circuits. This is why the e-tube is so critical in proper operation of these carbs. It's properties control the mixture across the engine's dynamic range.
    2/74 260Z

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Default Proof!!

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdamico...83/?likes_hd=1


    hope this works!

    And this is the old gal at the local Friendswood texas annual car show, where she took 2nd in the pre 1979 import class. Yeah. Lost to a stinking 1954 beetle with about 50k in modifications to it. one ugly beetle. But I did beat a nice turbo 912

    Last edited by Zedyone_kenobi; 04-22-2012 at 05:45 AM.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  89. #89
    Registered User rocketdog's Avatar
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    Default Feelin' Some of Your Early Pains

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	52836Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	52837Got my manifolds all nicely installed and the steering knunkle back together that I had to take apart to make room for the exhaust header. Went to install the first carb and the studs on the manifold are too short. No way to put on the nut and spring washer. Did one bolt and the washer was squeezed flat and the Nyloc nut was only 1/2 on. Had to take all the LocTited studs off and redo them. Why didn't they say " Be sure to leave 1 1/4 inch stud exposed from the surface of the intake manifold."!!!??? Much easier to work on the bench instead of bent over inside the engine bay. After that the carbs went in quickly.

    I had a heat shield fabbed from aluminum: 21" x 6" with a 3/4" lip in the back bent at 120 degrees so the shield drops down from the carbs at a 30 degree angle. I drilled out one hole for each carb to mount and cut out sections for the other 3 mounting studs. Don't need 6 nuts holding on a piece of aluminum. Had to do a little hand cuting with tin snips and wire cutters to get it to fit under the carbs. Used Mike W's idea of the shield, a washer, spring washer and nut. With the shield angled downa bit I could fairly easily reach the washers and nuts by feel and tighten with an ratchet extension.

    Installed the linkage per their spec. Had to move where my stock linkage bolts to the firewall over about 1 1/2" so it is now a fairly straight shot to the carb linkage. Figure fewer angles the better. First try the floored gas pedal equaled full open throttle.

    I'm done for about 2 weeks as have to attend to family stuff, plus I haven't yet ordered all my braided SS, AN fittings, regulator and all that fun stuff
    Late 260Z; 2005 Daytona Blue paint; Triple Webers 40DCOE; competition springs w/Tokico HP shocks; Koenig 17x7 Crosshairs w/ Yokohama AVS 215/45 WR 17; Original owner; Show car w/ many awards

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    Registered User Hunter260Z's Avatar
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    Zedyone
    Your car looks awesome,I wish my Z looked that good. There is nothing,I would change on your car. Great looking car. It also sounds good. No busting out with the Webers.
    Ray
    1974 Datson 260Z
    RLS30-27748 Matching #'s
    L26 Stock w/72 Round Tops
    Interpart Front Spoiler
    Addco Front & Rear Sway Bars
    My Very First Car
    Purchased 5/23/1974

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Thanks hunter, love that blue color on yours!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User d240zx2's Avatar
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    Stephen, you have turned a good Z into an outstanding Z. When I first saw your Z, I was impressed. I cannot begin to imagine the before and after of your efforts. From appearance to performance, you have done it all and have done it well.
    First & Third owner of HLS30-00721
    B. 01/70 D. 03/12

    New owner of HLS30-15653
    B. 12/70 D.

    Frank in Houston, Texas

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    So I guess most folks running the triples are just putting a breather filter on the crankcase tube? I was trying to science out a way to run the PCV with some vacuum, but I have noticed guys just doing away with this by putting a breather on the pipe. Any negative effects doing this?
    Since I am going to run a vacuum log I could put a PCV valve on the end of it to hook up to manifold vacuum, but rather not if I don't have too.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    That means more than you know coming from you Frank. Thanks very much!
    I will post more videos of my car once I get the Webers dialed in. Actually, you just gave me an idea for a new thread!!

    new air correctors have been ordered!! I picked up some 160's, which is a smaller size than my 170s' which should be allow my mains to come in a tad faster.
    Last edited by Zedyone_kenobi; 04-23-2012 at 07:34 AM.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Quote Originally Posted by madkaw View Post
    So I guess most folks running the triples are just putting a breather filter on the crankcase tube? I was trying to science out a way to run the PCV with some vacuum, but I have noticed guys just doing away with this by putting a breather on the pipe. Any negative effects doing this?
    Since I am going to run a vacuum log I could put a PCV valve on the end of it to hook up to manifold vacuum, but rather not if I don't have too.
    If I had a vacuum log, I'd definitely do it. You can put the PCV valve either into the log or remove the breather tube from the block and stick a PCV valve in there. I believe stonehenge69 did this on his stroker, using a Mistubishi PCV valve.

    Drawing out blowby gasses by vacuum is a good thing, and will not only improve performance but keep your oil cleaner as well.

    Here it is: http://www.zcar.com/70-83_tech_discu..._686437.0.html
    2/74 260Z

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    That's what I thought and that's what I'll do!!
    I will just hook it up to one end of the log.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Read the history section on this page and you will be an expert: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankca...ilation_system

    You can vent to road
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Read the history section on this page and you will be an expert: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankca...ilation_system

    You can vent to road
    ...and then find out why it's not a good idea.
    2/74 260Z

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    Okay 160 air correctors installed and wow what a difference. My low RPM air/fuel ratio while cruising in 4th dropped from 15.8 to 14.1. Still a bit lean but the big story is my flat spot stumble at transition to the mains is 80% gone. Almost impossible to make happen as the main circuit is just right there ready to come in and take over when I need it.

    I will drive it a few days like this and decide if I want to run a 150 AC.

    I have no intentions on running a bigger main jet.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  100. #100
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I want to close this thread and end it, as they are installed and running.

    My review is complete as they are just a joy to own and drive. I can finally rev my car up without any issues whatsoever. The Weber carb is a joy to tune and drive with every thing having immediate and measurable results!

    I want to start a new thread on tuning, and tracking the results of changes.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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