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Thread: Rear Glass w/no defroster??

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    Registered User Dat240ZG's Avatar
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    Default Rear Glass w/no defroster??

    I own #248 and noticed the other day that the rear glass has no defroster grid and that the consol has no provision for a rear defroster at all. Anyone else have that?

    My #1793 has the vertical elements.

    Interesting.....

    Bryan
    Dat240zg

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    I recall that #472 had no defroster, but 12xx did. Narrows the numbers down a bit.

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    Yes, the earliest cars did not have the defroster.
    -Mike
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    I was looking at # 313 (yes, it's up for sale) last week and I also noticed the lack of the rear defroster. On the console plate the rear defroster switch is not there and in its place was a rectangular plastic plug.

    For comparison, on my 2/70 car (# 1841) there is a rear defroster
    Steve Golik
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    I once owned #488, no defroster.
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Welcome to the low vin club! I am looking for one of those console plugs.
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    For those with low VIN's and no defroster glass - Do you have the holes cut out of the plastic roof finisher for the nonexistent defroster wires?

    Thanks,
    Jim

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    I have #1399, no defroster (as reflected above), but I don't see any opening or plugged opening for defroster wires.

    Stephen
    January 1970 240Z
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    So #1456 was the first to have a defroster. I didn't know the number was that high. I had always heard that the first 500 or so didn't have a defroster. I guess you can teach and old dog new tricks
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    Mine doesn't have a plug or anything. Just a blank area where you would typically find the switch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    I am looking for one of those console plugs.
    Chris, is that the plug that has the pebble texture and the pair of mounting tabs that attach with screws to the underside of the console finisher?
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    I find this kind of ironic. People who bought the earliest cars probably felt cheated. They were missing amenities and features that appeared as standard equipment a short time later.

    "I can't see out the back because it's frosted over"
    "My radio is AM only".
    "My crankshaft is causing the engine to vibrate too much"

    Some of them might have had the dealer "upgrade" them as in the case of the defroster by using the parts that 26th-Z posted. Now these early cars are highly regarded. The "upgraded" cars might even be less valuable since they're not "original".
    -Mike
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Ah, the lovely nuances of the early Zs!

    If the car came with clear glass, the interior headliner molding for the overhead light did not have a little nich for the defroster wire. The blanking plug in the console for the switch is identical, although smaller, to the blanking plug for the parking lights. I don't know what you are describing, Arne. Picture? The very first switches for the defroster glass were black and not lighted. Clear glass is not all that difficult to find in Japan because only the ZL model came with defroster glass. Its all a fun game, yea?
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW
    I find this kind of ironic. People who bought the earliest cars probably felt cheated. They were missing amenities and features that appeared as standard equipment a short time later.
    What I have learned over the past three years or so is that the original HLS30 was a specific model of the S30 family and we Americans didn't really miss much of the amenities at first. But as you know, the Z became more loaded as time went on. There are two distinct models of the Japanese Fairlady Z that can be compared to the HLS30 Datsun 240Z, but it was really an individual on its own. I suspect cost had a lot to do with what came to America at first, and I believe this because I believe the Japanese had no idea how popular the car would become. Certainly Nissan intended to export their cars to increase their sales and certainly they viewed the American market with high anticipation, but I do not believe they were all that confident and thus I do not believe the marque was designed specifically for the American market. If you bought a fully loaded Fairlady ZL in Japan at the time, you got headlight covers, an 8-track tape deck, passenger foot rest, and all sorts of things we never even saw as options. The bone stock Fairlady Z S30-S came with a blanking plate for the radio, clear hatch glass, rubber floor mats and so on. The export HLS30 was sort of a mixture between the S30-S and the ZL. Of course, it was a Datsun 240Z instead of a Nissan. 'D' hubcaps came to America. Wheel covers in Japan are different.

    So you see, the American export HLS30 was quite different at first, and as Nissan began to see the increadible demand, they responded with more amenities as well as improvements. I'll brag about my early examples by saying that they are the lightest and fastest of the Zs until the 280ZX turbo. However, they leaked exhaust gas back into the cabin the worst, little parts originally made of plastic broke and lets not even talk about the geometry of the rear axels! When I rebuilt the engine for 26th last fall, the machinest laughed and said he couldn't understand how my "vibrator" stayed together as long as it did.

    Its fun for me to talk about the low vin cars. I hope you guys with your "new" low vin toys enjoy them. They are distinct, quite different, and a lot of fun to talk about.

    Chris
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    Originally posted by: 26th-Z

    Certainly Nissan intended to export their cars to increase their sales and certainly they viewed the American market with high anticipation, but I do not believe they were all that confident and thus I do not believe the marque was designed specifically for the American market.

    Why then were the cars first exported to the U.S. (as opposed to Europe or elsewhere) with cabins that could easily accommodate individuals 6 ft. tall, while the home market needed and got foot rests?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    If the car came with clear glass, the interior headliner molding for the overhead light did not have a little nich for the defroster wire.
    Chris,
    So does 26th & 27th have the "nichs" for the defroster wires?

    Anyone else?

    Jim

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    The first cars were sold in Japan, moonpup, not exported. America probably got the first exports, and do keep in mind there was guy here named Katayama who was somewhat influencial, because America was a sales target - no doubt. I think it is pretty well documented that Matsuo san took this into account and dimensioned the chassis to accomodate tall people. But with the issue surrounding clear hatch glass; there seems no doubt that it was a cost consideration that configured the first American exports with the glass that came standard in the S30-S. Of course, the PS30-SB didn't have defrosters. I guess we could consider clear glass a performance part?

    Nope, no nich for defrosters.
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    Laidback Purist moonpup's Avatar
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    Originally posted by: 26th-Z

    The first cars were sold in Japan, moonpup, not exported.
    Originally posted by: moonpup

    Why then were the cars first exported to the U.S. (as opposed to Europe or elsewhere)
    So as not to confuse anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    The bone stock Fairlady Z S30-S came with a blanking plate for the radio, clear hatch glass, rubber floor mats and so on.
    Reminds me (as many things about the late '60's Japanese cars do) of a typical English car. Why would the heater be optional in England, of all places?
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    I'll brag about my early examples by saying that they are the lightest and fastest of the Zs until the 280ZX turbo.
    A big "Amen" to everything you said, except this. Your cars were neither the lightest or fastest of the Z range.


    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    Why then were the cars first exported to the U.S. (as opposed to Europe or elsewhere) with cabins that could easily accommodate individuals 6 ft. tall, while the home market needed and got foot rests?
    "Needed and got"? Who said they "needed" them?

    The footrest was actually a sports-oriented optional item, and not fitted to *every* Japanese market Z as you seem to think it was. I'll leave the question of why it might have been called a 'sports' option to your imagination...... 

    And have you ever seen the seat mounts on a Japanese-market bodyshell? They might help to answer some questions for you ( even if some of them are questions you might never have thought to ask ). This enduring "designed for the USA market" thing is misleading.

    The S30-series Z was just ONE of the Japanese cars designed and manufactured in that era that were beginning to accommodate a potentially taller customer base ( in Japan as well as elsewhere ). This was not an Export market-only phenomenon; the Japanese were getting taller too. Just look at the ergonomics of some other models like the C10 Skyline range for comparison.

    Alan T.

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    Laidback Purist moonpup's Avatar
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    Originally posted by: HS30-H

    "Needed and got"? Who said they "needed" them.
    Well apparently the U.S. market didn't, as they weren't an easily accessable option for us, right?


    Originally posted by: HS30-H

    And have you ever seen the seat mounts on a Japanese-market bodyshell? They might help to answer some questions for you ( even if some of them are questions you might never have thought to ask ). This enduring "designed for the USA market" thing is misleading.
    Hey, thanks for reminding me about the seat mounts. (Oh and yes, I was aware of the differences.)


    Originally posted by: HS30-H

    Alfadog and That Ozzy Guy, you might be interested to know that the Japanese "Home" market S30-series Z cars had extra seat mount brackets - so that the seat runners could be unbolted and moved several cm forward of the "normal" position. If you look at the seat mount brackets in the floor area of a non Japanese market Z, you will see that the REAR bracket has TWO holes in it ( am I right? ) - however, the forward bracket only has one hole position. This means that the Japanese market had the option of having the seat mounted forward of its usual export position.
    Hummm...Another accommodation for the home market?

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    HS30-00352 has no rear defroster and a black plastic plug on the centre console. There is no wiring loom to the would be switch nor to the location where the wires would meet the defroster nor any slots in the overhead plastic thingy.

    Car will be garaged all its life, so no need for the defroster now. Worst case is that I'll leave the car idling with the hand throttle and the heater pouring out to defrost the thing. Just gotta love that hand throttle.
    Zed not Zee

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    Just to confuse the issue, HS30 011692 doesn't have the rear heater, the notches in the plastic trim, the console switch OR the provision in the wiring harness.
    Then again, the rear glass is also only 4mm thick with rubber to match.

    HS30-H might be able to shed some light since it also has the 'optional' seat mounting bolt holes.

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    HS30 103305 also didn't come with heated rear glass!
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    You Aussies and Kiwis are confusing the issue at hand. They're talking about American (HLS30) cars and you're talking about Australia/New Zeland (HS30) cars.
    Miles

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    philo "Z" opher Zedrally's Avatar
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    Hi Miles, were just getting them back for all the confusion their given us in the past!!!!
    Mike of the Mire

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    Hi moonpup (everyone):
    I'm sure that you must have been badly mislead, confused by the subversive writings of Mr. Kawamata, Mr. Katayama, and indeed Mr. Matsuo on this subject .. Just like 99% of the rest of the world.

    It's all been propaganda... marketing fluff... . We can't believe Mr. Matsuo when he documents his story of how the Z Car came about - - no, no, no... It has been deviously translated to fool the Americans. Nor indeed that pure marketeer Mr. Katayama.. (would you buy a used car from this man?)

    Some of the troubling facts of the matter that we simply have to get over include :

    In 1960 the first "Fair Lady" went on sale - built in Left-Hand-Drive only the SPL212. From 1960 though 1962 Nissan had built 695 sports cars and had exported 684 of them. Barely able to supply the huge Japanese Domestic Market with 11 sports cars!!

    In 1963 (starting Oct. 62)... the Fairlady 1500 (aka Datsun 1500 roadster), really put Nissan in the Sports Car business. With production of some 6533 units in 63 and 64, they Exported 3887. Supplying the now sports car hungry JDM with 2646 units.

    In 1965 as Mr. Matsuo took on his new assignment as Chief Of Design, for the Sports Car Styling Studio (staffed with a whapping 3 people)... Nissan Motors Ltd. built 4,066 Sports Cars.. of which 4,293 were exported. (so Domestic sales shrank to something like 673 units)

    By 1966 as Mr. Matsuo decided to change his approach, and focus instead on the US Regulations and Katayam'a suggestions .. Nissan built 6105 sports cars and exported 5,922 of them. (so Domestic sales were something like 193 units). It becomes very obvious that what Nissan really needed at this point - is complete family of sports cars to satisfy such huge domestic and world wide demand.

    In 1967 as Mr. Matsuo got Mr. Katayam's support for a new sports car for America, and the design evolved toward the car we know today as the Z Car. Nissan built 7622 sports cars and exported 6,714 of them (so Domestic Sales skyrocked to 948 units).

    By 1968 as Nissan readied the Z Car for America, with a planned production of 20.000 units per year, the JDM Sports Car Market consumed a whapping 991 units of the 13,690 produced. (where do you suppose they all went?)

    Based on selling 991 Sports Cars in Japan in 68 - makes you wonder why the Z was planned for initial production of 20,000 units per year ???

    By the end of 1969 as Nissan put the Z Car into production.. uh as a "family of cars"... intended to sell broadly into that Japanese market, and oh, by the way sell as well into the "world export market "...da... the JDM demand for sports cars hit a total of 99 with the remaining 8,769 dumped overseas. Must have thrown a real scare into the market sales forecasters... can you see the panic on their faces?

    Oh yes - that "World Market"... please, someone tell us where in the world in 1970 did Nissan have more than 50 Authorized DATSUN DEALERS in any one country, other than the 750 here in America - - maybe Canada... Australia maybe??? (anyone have a List of Authorized DATSUN Dealers from 1970 for Australia? - I can only find a couple of distributes there in 1970.)

    So you see moonpup - we can't let the facts, nor the documented writings of the men involved confuse us. Can We???



    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Laidback Purist moonpup's Avatar
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    Orininally posted by: Carl Beck

    I'm sure that you must have been badly mislead, confused

    A big "Yahoo" to everything you said, except this.
    Last edited by moonpup; 07-14-2006 at 03:56 PM.

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    philo "Z" opher Zedrally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    huge big snip..

    Australia maybe??? (anyone have a List of Authorized DATSUN Dealers from 1970 for Australia? - I can only find a couple of distributes there in 1970.)

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Hi Carl, I didn't want to hijack the thread from it's original question, however as you have (I don't feel guilty about it now) I can explain to you why you didn't find a list of Authorised Dealers in Australia. There is no list from that period, the Dealers were appointed by the Distributor, you must remember the only presence Nissan had in Australia was through an appointed Distributor.
    There generally was one in each State operating independantly to each other and importing directly from Japan. FWIW The population of Aust. at that time would have been equivilant to Tokyo, just to get an appropriate idea of scale. This incidentally would go a long way in explaining the importation of the C110 (again from memory) into South Australia, which was reported in an thread which attracted considerable debate earlier in the year.

    The Distributor then appointed Dealers, these where located in large country towns, generally any town with a population greater than 2K already had a distributor of UK makes, the authorised dealer usually was an authorised Morris or Mini agent. Show rooms where mariginal, read generally no room, sales where by brochure. Sales reps generally went from town to town trying to interest any service station (as we called petrol stations/mechanics at the time) into becoming a Authorised Dealer, after all the start of the network had to begin somewhere. I re-call the Service Sation/Mechanic opposite (1 man band) where I grew up in the late 50's/early 60's had the "Authorised Dealership" for Rambler, only every sold one car and that was to himself!

    Neon and other signs displaying Datsun Dealer started appearing in the mid 70's (not exactly sure of the date) after Nissan resumed distributors rights and started marketing in there own right. (I remember chasing a part for my 260 in 1978 in St Arnaud, pop. 1500 which had a Datsun Dealer) and there was a list provided in the service/handbook at that time.

    Sorry for the hi-jack, perhaps Mike can move the thread and re-name it from your post as it is an interesting subject. I would be interested in reading from others in other countries what other vehicle makes where sold by their "Authorised Datsun Dealer"?

    Regards
    MikeN
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    Thanks Mike
    That is very interesting and it explains why I can't find a list of Authorized Datsun Dealers. As you may know, Mr. K started here in the US with about the same set-up. Datsuns being handled by distributors, and he too recruited Gas Service Stations among some of the first Dealers. The difference is he started that process here in 1960..... and finished that year with something like 23 "Authorized Datsun Dealers".... by the end of 1973 he had built that into a Dealer Network with over 950, now very successful Datsun Dealers.

    It really is an amazing success story, supported by an even more amazing Corporate Strategic Plan, executed with boldness and precision... once the ball got rolling here. Not only in terms of sales, but the associated support - technical training, parts, transportation systems, capital investment, real estate accusations etc etc. Of course all along the way Toyota either lead or kept pretty close...

    thanks for the information..
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01
    So #1456 was the first to have a defroster.
    HI Stephen (everyone):

    Anyone else know who owned HLS30 01455?... the last car to arrive without the defroster? I'll give you a hint - he wrote a book about the Z's....

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    Hey, thanks for reminding me about the seat mounts. (Oh and yes, I was aware of the differences.)

    Hummm...Another accommodation for the home market?
    If you were aware of the Japanese-market seat mounts, then presumably you must have noticed a few other "accommodations" ( DESIGN CONCESSIONS - each way ) for both LHD and RHD versions, and mechanicals other than those seen on your HLS30-U? Perhaps you don't see them?

    Here are some examples of the kind of misinformation and bias that might have misled you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The Z Cars for Export were Left Hand Drive models - No production Right Hand Drive 240-Z's were "produced" until very late Jan or Feb of 1970. There are no 1969 RHD 240-Z's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    No Right Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z's were "produced" in 1969.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The first Right Hand Drive (HS30) 240-Z was produced in late Jan or Feb of 1970.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The history of the design and development, production and sales of the LHD Z - shows clearly that the "240-Z" is the "Daddy". I don't believe that's a personal "bias" - just a presentation of the facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Yes, the total story of the Z would have to include a short chapter about all the various minor incarnations for nitch markets. However if you think they are "as important", "as significant" as the HLS30 - - then I have to believe you have missed the real "Story Of The Z Car".
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    As the thread started with Kat's original post - it covered 1969 production. In that context "E" applied to the HLS30's - If we were talking about 1970 production then "E" would cover both HLS and HS models.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    What I said was the 240-Z was specifically designed for the US market - and every other variation was simply a side benefit to Nissan of no where near the significance in the overall scheme of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market.

    Did you spot the biggest lie in there? I'll quote it again for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    ................your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.
    And that's all you need to remember about that particular commentator.

    Alan T.
    Last edited by HS30-H; 07-15-2006 at 06:35 PM.

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    Originally posted by: HS30-H

    Oops...Too many re-quotes to requote!
    With the exception of the RHD S30's being produced in 1969, I see nothing wrong with the other statements made by Mr. Beck that you quoted and I also see that once again you have provided no proof, either verifiably or logically, that these other statements are in anyway incorrect.

    As for the RHD in 69 statements, I do believe it was only recently that possible verifiable information has come forth to presumably disprove Mr. Beck and that when those statements were made by Mr. Beck, this "new" information had not yet been made public.

    Now, since most companies that make a product for the public have a specific market that they will target, could you kindly inform all of us in your opinion just what market Nissan was targeting for the production of the S30.

    Please make your argument as logically as you can, as I don't believe you or anyone else for that matter has yet to uncover any verifiable proof.

    Oh.. One other thing regarding the seat mount statement made by you that I quoted. Could you please explain what "normal" meant in your statement "could be unbolted and moved several cm forward of the "normal" position."

    Or why the Japanese market needed an option to have the seat moved forward of its "usual export position" if let's say the target market was in fact the JDM?

    Sorry, you never answered that and I was just curious.
    Last edited by moonpup; 07-15-2006 at 08:29 PM.

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    Default Here we go again...

    Hi moompup:
    The quotes of mine related to Production of Right Hand Drive 240-Z's in 1969 - that Alan posted - were from 2003 (see thread referred to below)..... If you follow that thread, you will see that as the subject evolved over the years - I did in fact agree that it was possible cars before HS30 00004 were made - I also went on to explain that my main concern was to dispel the myth that existed in Australia that they had received any 69 Production 240-Z's.


    4-02-06 Post #19
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20843&page=2

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Hi Alan (everyone)
    Yes, while it could be true that HS30 00003 started production in 69, we have not yet found the car to be in existence. As you pointed out in an earlier thread - Nissan's publications can contain a lot of mistakes and mis-information.

    The primary reason for that statement, was to debunk the common Myth that the first 500 "HS30" Z's were produced in 1969. For years we saw HS30's advertised For Sale in Australia/NZ with VIN's between HS30 00004 - HS30 00500 represented as being 1969 Production Year cars... which certainly was not the case.

    We do have HS30 00004 and we (its current owner at the time and I ) agreed that the car was most likely produced in Jan. or Feb. of 1970. Based, among other things, on its original engine serial number and his memory of when it arrived in Australia mid-1970.

    Some of the US Nissan Publications also show production of units sold to the public - starting at HLS30 00013. So far we have not been able to find the car nor any record of it being sold.

    So are HS30 00003 and HLS30 00013 thru 00015 Myths?... could be - but so far we list what we can find.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

    As the information gathered by Kats in Japan years later has shown - there were at least two Pre-Production or Production Prototypes built in 69.. ie HS30 00001 and 00002. We are still waiting to see if we can find some documentation on 00003 - which is shown in some Nissan Publications as being the first Production vehicle (released to the public).

    I belive that all the other quotes are on the money.

    This "family of cars from the beginning", "unanticipated demand", etc etc dribble - not only greatly distorts the actual design, development and production processes, it refutes the most significant accomplishments of the men involved and completely misses the most amazing aspect of this historic automobile.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    With the exception of the RHD S30's being produced in 1969, I see nothing wrong with the other statements made by Mr. Beck that you quoted and I also see that once again you have provided no proof, either verifiably or logically, that these other statements are in anyway incorrect.
    Er, was it news to you that RHD S30-series Z cars were produced in 1969? If so, I respectfully suggest that you might like to do a little catch-up research ( you might like to start with the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show ).

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    As for the RHD in 69 statements, I do believe it was only recently that possible verifiable information has come forth to presumably disprove Mr. Beck and that when those statements were made by Mr. Beck, this "new" information had not yet been made public.
    There you go again. "RHD in 1969" is well documented common knowledge. The problem is that you seem to have that sad affliction known as 'Beck-O-Vision', which manifests itself as an inability to understand that the HLS30-U is an S30-series Z, but the S30-series is not an HLS30-U or indeed a '240Z' ( of any denomination ).

    You get the point? Don't write "240Z" when you mean 'S30' and "S30" when you mean '240Z' ( and don't forget to be specific about which type of '240Z' you mean ).

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    Now, since most companies that make a product for the public have a specific market that they will target, could you kindly inform all of us in your opinion just what market Nissan was targeting for the production of the S30.
    Would you like to rephrase that after reading my advice?

    The answer is of course that Nissan was targeting several markets with the S30-series Z models. You might have meant to ask in which particular market Nissan was expecting the majority of sales to be made ( yes? ) - and of course that would be the USA, the market where one particular type of S30-series Z cars was aimed at ( the HLS30-U ).

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    Please make your argument as logically as you can, as I don't believe you or anyone else for that matter has yet to uncover any verifiable proof.
    . "Verifiable proof" of what exactly?

    You only have to look closely at your car to see the evidence that the S30-series Z car was designed and manufactured with more than one target market in mind, and for more than one single variant to be produced at the same time. Maybe you have not seen enough other variants contemporary with your HLS30-U to fully comprehend this?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    [Oh.. One other thing regarding the seat mount statement made by you that I quoted. Could you please explain what "normal" meant in your statement "could be unbolted and moved several cm forward of the "normal" position."
    I believe ( as far as I remember ) that I was explaining their presence in the Japanese-market cars to somebody that had not seen or heard of them before, and who was at the time the owner of an Australian market model. I think it should be clear to you what "normal" in that particular context would be. It is a question of perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup
    Or why the Japanese market needed an option to have the seat moved forward of its "usual export position" if let's say the target market was in fact the JDM?

    Sorry, you never answered that and I was just curious.
    You dug a hole and I just stepped over it. Be careful you don't fall in it yourself.........

    The S30-series Z was a whole family of cars. It is not ME that is telling anyone otherwise. The extra holes in your seat mounts would tell you something if you opened your mind to it - just like the question that started this whole thread off. 26th-Z was very eloquent in his reply, so if you don't like this particular piano player then I suggest you might listen to the way 26th-Z plays the same tune.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Hi moompup:
    The quotes of mine related to Production of Right Hand Drive 240-Z's in 1969 - that Alan posted - were from 2003 (see thread referred to below)..... If you follow that thread, you will see that as the subject evolved over the years - I did in fact agree that it was possible cars before HS30 00004 were made - I also went on to explain that my main concern was to dispel the myth that existed in Australia that they had received any 69 Production 240-Z's.
    This was not long after you finally realised that the 'HS30' and 'HLS30' VIN prefixes ( not to mention the 'S30' and 'PS30' ) each had their own body serial number sequences, wasn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    I belive that all the other quotes are on the money.
    I'll keep quoting you then. It adds perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    This "family of cars from the beginning", "unanticipated demand", etc etc dribble - not only greatly distorts the actual design, development and production processes, it refutes the most significant accomplishments of the men involved and completely misses the most amazing aspect of this historic automobile.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    "Dribble"?

    Carl, you make your own big contributions to the myths that surround these cars.

    Refusing to acknowledge the S30-series Z as a "family" of variants is possibly the biggest single mark of disrespect you could make to the engineers and designers that worked on the project. Next time you meet Matsuo san you might like to ask him ( face to face ) what he thinks of your "American car, made in Japan" quote. He already told me what he thinks of it.

    If you want to use the quote and still keep a straight face, you might like to apply it ONLY to the HLS30-U model.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    "Dribble"?

    Carl, you make your own big contributions to the myths that surround these cars.
    Hi Alan:
    I try to research the subjects and report in a summary fashion what which I find. Taken from sources that can be referenced, for everyone here to read. So far nothing would indicate that the Z Car was ever "Designed From The Beginning" to be a "family" of cars all of equal importance to Nissan Motors Ltd.... Nor do I believe that the history books will ever focus equally on all the variations of the core design - that core was the DATSUN 240Z according to the people that designed and built it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    Refusing to acknowledge the S30-series Z as a "family" of variants is possibly the biggest single mark of disrespect you could make to the engineers and designers that worked on the project.
    As usual - your replies are to statements taken out of context, or misquoted into statements I have not made. A good debate tactic, used to change the focus of the specific subject, but not very productive in terms of a discussion intended to pin down specifics and facts.

    If you would like to view the first generation of S30 Z's (70-78) in hindsight as a "family of variants" I certainly would have no problem with that.

    Personally I view them as variations to the original design, because my focus has been on attempting to find out not only who did actually design the car, but how that design came about, evolved and how it held its "design integrity" through the design to production transition.

    At issue here is your assertion that "from the beginning" Matsuo's design was for a "family" of models. According to him, he and his team turned out a very specific final design. One that fit a very extensive set of major design requirements, all encouraged by, driven by, and/or derived from Mr. Katayama and the American Market. While retaining Mr. Matsuo's overall styling concepts.


    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    Next time you meet Matsuo san you might like to ask him ( face to face ) what he thinks of your "American car, made in Japan" quote. He already told me what he thinks of it.
    I will do that. I will also ask him why everything he has written for publication, everything he has stated publicly - would seem to be at such odds with his personal conversations with you.

    From my research:
    The Story of the Z Car - is the story of how Nissan changed the Design Paradigm for the automotive world in 1970, with the design and development of the Datsun 240-Z. That change was all about designing specific models for specific targeted export markets, rather than modifying domestic models for export. Nissan certainly did make accommodations during the down stream engineering and production planning phase to the Export model - to allow for limited domestic sales.

    While "British Sports Cars" stayed very British, and "Italian Sports Cars" stayed very Italian; Nissan, Kawamata, Katayama and Matsuo - designed and then built a Sports/GT specifically for America, it was Sized for Americans, Powered for American driving needs, Luxuriously appointed to American expectations, designed to meet all US Regulations and priced to sell competitively in America - at great profit margins for Nissan.

    That change in automotive design philosophy is what put Nissan in the #1 Sales Position here - and put the English and Italians all but out of the market.. and indeed in many cases out of business. It wasn't a family of sports cars - it was a design that evolved over time with and ever more specific focus on American customers - the DATSUN 240-Z. Everything else after that, was simply a logical and rational spin-off from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    If you want to use the quote and still keep a straight face, you might like to apply it ONLY to the HLS30-U model.

    Alan T.
    For the reasons stated above - I believe that the statement is a good way of summarizing what actually took place, and I see no need to change it. It was actually a way of getting people to read the rational behind it... and it seems to work pretty well. If I titled it "Changing The Design Paridigm"...I doubt it would grab much attention.

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Carl Beck responding to HS30-H

    "As usual - your replies are to statements taken out of context, or misquoted into statements I have not made. A good debate tactic, used to change the focus of the specific subject, but not very productive in terms of a discussion intended to pin down specifics and facts."

    Thanks Carl, I was going to point that out earlier but never got around to it. I tried to nail him down, but he just continues to dance around. Example:

    Originally Posted by moonpup
    Or why the Japanese market needed an option to have the seat moved forward of its "usual export position" if let's say the target market was in fact the JDM?

    Sorry, you never answered that and I was just curious.
    HS30-H's response:

    "You dug a hole and I just stepped over it. Be careful you don't fall in it yourself........."

    As you see..."not very productive in terms of a discussion intended to pin down specifics and facts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    You get the point? Don't write "240Z" when you mean 'S30' and "S30" when you mean '240Z' ( and don't forget to be specific about which type of '240Z' you mean ).
    Hi Alan:
    Ah... and just what would one mean - if they did use "S30" or "S30-series"? I've always found those terms to be meaningless, if not qualified with additional information.

    IF You Use "S30" would it mean:
    a) S30 unibody
    b) S30 Fairlady Z-L

    IF You Use "S30-series" would it mean:
    c) S30-series of First Generation Z's (70-78)
    d) S30-series of Nissan Fairlady Z-L's..


    I certainly would not suggest that "S30" nor "S30-series" ever be used without the necessary additional information needed to to assign them an understandable meaning.

    Don't use 240-Z when you mean Fairlady Z-L. Or, don't use 240-Z when you mean "the first generation of Z cars. etc etc. Do attempt to understand statements within the context that they are intended.


    I think we could, and indeed should, drop the use of "S30" and "S30-series" as stand alone terms. By themselves, they are completely nondescriptive. Just use Fairlady Z-L, First Generation Z's, etc. That would be far less confusing for everyone.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Default In Japan

    Hello,
    Like Chris siad,I see this quite some times in Japanese auction.Please see this,
    http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k34893503
    do not be surprised the starting bid,it is normal price in Japan.And this item has been showed up again and again.Why nobody buy it? I think it is just not attracitive/rare item for japanese people.If the starting bid is way low,maybe some one bid.
    I am curious about these optional items(tinted and defroster).How many people did not choose these items?I think it could be non-defroster 1970-197? 240Z in the U.S. And how the dealer service man replace these parts for the brand-new 240zs?Was the labor easy or not?Where did these trash windscreens(also how about hub caps?) go?

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
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    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884

    1972 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-60213 (12/71)
    L24-072419

    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Hi Kats:
    Most of the Dealers I knew at the time never were ask to replace the clear glass with the tinted glass and rear defroster. Keep in mind that by the time the 240-Z's started arriving at the dealerships, Nissan Motor In U.S.A. had close to 900 Authorized Datsun Dealers. They tried to get at least a couple cars out to every dealer.... so only a couple of 240-Z's with clear glass would have been delivered to any one dealer at the time. If any of them did remove and replace the clear hatch glass, they most likely threw the originals in the trash.

    The Dealers put aluminum wheels on almost every 240-Z before they sold them. That added additional profit to the car for them. At $3526.00 MSRP the dealers only had about $500.00 in profit to begin with. They paid on average about $20.00 for aluminum wheels then - and listed them at retail to the customers at $450.00.... thus adding $370.00 profit to the sale ! That was almost as much as they made selling the car. Body Side Protective Molding was also a very common extra cost equipment item added by the Dealers to most 240-Z's here. That cost them about $45.00 per car and they listed it for between $125.00 and $175.00.

    The original "take-off" steel wheels and hubcaps were first sent to the Part Department for storage. At first this was only a few cars, but as the supply of 240-Z's started coming on stronger.. original wheels and hub caps started piling up in the Dealers Parts Departments... and then when they took up too much room and there were no buyers for them - the Dealers simply threw the excess stock in the trash.

    In the Northern States, the Dealers were able to sell some of the stock steel wheels to customers that wanted/needed to mount winter tires. But that wasn't too many. No one wanted to buy those ugly hubcaps... not after they had seen a 240-Z with aluminum road wheels. Some customers did request that their hub caps be put in the cars prior to delivery - but the truth is most customers never even saw the original hub caps. By the time the Dealer was ready to deliver the car, they had already been removed and replaced the extra cost aluminum wheels.

    As late as 1985 several Dealers still had some in their warehouse as they had retained a few... but as time passed and more room was needed for newer parts that were being sold - the last of the OEM Take-Off's were also thrown in the Trash. This is a normal way of doing business - obsolete and non-selling parts get throw out, because the cost of shelf space to store them, exceeds their value.

    There isn't much demand for rear hatch glass here in the US - it doesn't seem to get broken very often. For a long time, if an owner had a broken rear hatch glass - they just went to the local junk yard and bought the entire rear deck lid The only people here in the States that want the clear hatch glass with no defroster wires - are people restoring the very early cars (prior to #1456) - and there aren't really that many of them, that don't have their original glass.

    On the US Spec. DATSUN 240-Z's after #1456 the tinted glass with the rear window defroster was standard equipment - so the customers had no option. Of course the tinted glass was a very useful standard equipment item because the hatch back design leads to a lot of heat in the car from the Sun. To keep the cars cooler, the after-market suppliers came up with the first rear window shade kits.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.


    Carl Beck
    Clearwater, FL USA
    http://ZHome.com

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    Carl,

    I disagree with you and I will thank you to not refer to my opinion as "dribble". In kind, I will try to stay off your case. I too, have read a significant amount of various accounts and documents. I too, have spoken directly with Matsuo-san and Katayama-san. I too, have an example of the car undergoing meticulous reconstruction. And my opinion is "family". I'm sorry you disagree and I think if you buy me a beer, I will feel much better.

    Alan, you gotta get off his case!

    Hi Kats! I sent your link to Jim - he is looking for clear glass.

    Chris
    Enjoy the Ride
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    {Imagine the sound of Arne donning his Nomex gear, in preparation for the flames.}

    You know, as a 240Z owner who has not met - and likely will never meet - any of the principals in the design process of these cars (note that I am trying to be all-inclusive here), threads like this one (and there have been several since I joined here about a year ago) are interesting, reassuring, and yet rather troubling to me.

    Interesting, because I learn all sorts of little details.

    Reassuring, because it is obvious that there are many people here who are extremely passionate about these cars, and that bodes well for the future preservation of them.

    But troubling as well, because there seems to be a serious undercurrent of sniping, back-stabbing and general ill-will to some of these posts.

    Now I will grant that as a Z owner I am a relative newbie. But (unfortunately) I'm not a young man any more, and my decades of communicating with other humans tells me that even if we all were to talk personally with the principal parties, it is probable that we would all come away with differing opinions. None of us were there, and so none of us will ever know the details, motivations, etc. first hand.

    So I guess I'd really be happier if everyone would just lighten up a bit. We are all here because we share a passion for these cars. I really don't think it matters to most people 30-40 years later why a certain part was or was not used on a certain car or in a certain market at any one point in time. Yes it matters that we know about the parts, but from this distance in time, the motivations behind it probably aren't important.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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