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Thread: 240Z Header Recommendation

  1. #1
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Default 240Z Header Recommendation

    I have done the search but I am still up in the air as to which header to buy. I need to replace the rusted header on my '71 240Z as well. The car's motor is stock & running the SU's. I have asked several knowledgable Z people and I have been given several opinions.

    1) Price no object 1 3/8" or 1 1/2" Stahl header (Pretty much universally the best but it is $775 plus shipping)

    2) 1 5/8" Nissan Motorsport header either chromed or unplated (ceramic coating extra) The opinions vary on whether the chrome will last or rust. I am leaning towards getting an unplated one and ceramic coating it.

    3) MSA ceramic coated header (I have one of their coated headers + their aluminized exhaust system on my '78. Fitment was an issue and the drone a problem. Sal says they have improved their header design and are working on the drone.)

    I'd like opinions of those who are using the different brands. Especially anyone using the Nissan Motorsport header chrome or coated. Thanks!
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    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  2. #2
    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Default

    There are a couple of other options:

    BRE race header replica, $1500.00

    Rebello Stepped race header $??

    Nissan motorsports header with huge primaries that would not work well...

    But for the best performance in a street or race car I would suggest the Stahl. I have spoken to Jere and he really knows his stuff. Builds a really well made product...It's worth the money.

    The MSA header's primary tubes might be a little big for a 2.4

    I know that Les Cannaday has another option as well along with the Stahl that he sells. you might want to call him for his personal take on what is available. 760-940-6365. les@classicdatsun.com

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Ron has a good point, in that most of the stuff on the market today is designed to flow well on a modified L28 and will have tubes too large for those of us still running mostly stock L24s.

    After the issues I had with the old Hooker Super Comp header I have in the yellow car, and with some personal ideas about best flow, my own criteria for exhaust on a stock L24 would be a small tube header with a thick, machined one-piece flange. I'd mate that up to a custom-built 2" or 2 1/4" exhaust that has both a resonator and a high flow muffler. I really like how the Dyno-Max #17-741 fits in back, much like stock.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Mark Belrose mark belrose's Avatar
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    Default

    Some may think this is a totally ridiculous idea, but why not go with the stock manifold? I've ran several headers on various L24s through the years, and low end power (what I'd call driveability) always suffers when installing a header on stock motors. In my opinion, it's just a waste of money. If you had better intake via modified carbs, porting, bigger cam, etc... then a header is worth considering.

    Mark

  5. #5
    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    Default MSA header

    I recently made my header purchase from MSA. The first header for my 2.4 SUCKED. The flange was thick but had slotted mounting holes(looked like a universal fit). The inside transition area inside where the pipe and flange meet was sloppy and full of voids-not very smooth. One header pipe hit the forward intake on the bottom--I sent it back to SAL
    The second header was the LATEST version from a new vendor. The flange is a HUGE improvement with a precise drilled flange(no slots). The transition inside the pipe runners with very well done with no voids and smooth welds. The coating looked good and have read good things about performance.
    The one pipe still made contact with the forward intake. With reluctance I grinded off about a 1/4" of material for clearance. This was in the area of the coolant passages which I was not using .I can't believe they cannot resolve this issue: maybe they will, I complained about it and recieved some compensation for it.
    So I guess for me it is bang for the buck. 300$ for a coated header seems pretty good, maybe not the best.
    Hope this helps
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

  6. #6
    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark belrose View Post
    Some may think this is a totally ridiculous idea, but why not go with the stock manifold? I've ran several headers on various L24s through the years, and low end power (what I'd call driveability) always suffers when installing a header on stock motors. In my opinion, it's just a waste of money. If you had better intake via modified carbs, porting, bigger cam, etc... then a header is worth considering.

    Mark
    I agree in principal, Mark. My red 240Z still has the stock manifold and I have no plans to change it.

    But when I made my plans to pull the oil-burning L28 out of my yellow 240Z and go back to a stock L24, I had to make a change - the round port L28 manifold wouldn't mate to the square-port E31 head. I really wanted to find a stock L24 exhaust manifold for it, but couldn't come up with one that was both affordable and not rusted and/or warped to junk. And since the parts car came with a header, the header is what I went with. Not altogether willingly, but that's where I ended up anyway.

    Anyway, I guess my point is that since jmark's car already has a rusty header on it, he probably doesn't have a stock manifold to put back on it. And finding a good one can be hard.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Arne, do you think there is a market for a stock exhaust manifold (with injection gallery) that is in good condition? It came out of my car which was running very well until the head cracked/gasket blew/head warped. The manifold is not warped and only has minimal surface rust (So. Cal car).
    -Bo

    1972 240z - Not original and still not done.
    "Something wicked this way comes...."

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm View Post
    Arne, do you think there is a market for a stock exhaust manifold (with injection gallery) that is in good condition? It came out of my car which was running very well until the head cracked/gasket blew/head warped. The manifold is not warped and only has minimal surface rust (So. Cal car).
    Yes and no. There are people like myself who would prefer to go with that rather than a header. But there may not be many of us, and those manifolds are heavy enough that shipping costs are non-trivial. So the market for them might not be all that great. I see them sell on eBay now and then, but the sale price isn't normally that high - it's the shipping costs that add up.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Your thoughts mirror mine. I would hate to get rid of it if someone else could use it, but I need to clear out the garage. The wife does not want me storing parts I am not using.
    -Bo

    1972 240z - Not original and still not done.
    "Something wicked this way comes...."

  10. #10
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Arne you are correct about the car already having a header. Ron I emailed Les and he felt the Nissan was too much and that the Stahl was tops. He felt for a less costly solution go with a MSA coated header. What other type does he sell? Stahl builds a 1 3/8" & 1 1/2" model which is probably better sized for the stock motor.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  11. #11
    Registered User Marty Rogan's Avatar
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    I agree with Mark as well. For an un-modified L-24 street car, the stock manifold flows well enough and you avoid all the fitment and droning problems.

    If you must go with a header, you might want to consider ordering from the Jet-Hot Coatings website. I got a Pacesetter Header from them direct. They ordered the header, coated it and shipped it right to my door for around $300.
    I was impressed with the quality of the workmanship and had no installation issues.

    Just another option to consider.

    Marty

  12. #12
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    I have emailed Jere Stahl and he will be back to me soon.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm View Post
    Your thoughts mirror mine. I would hate to get rid of it if someone else could use it, but I need to clear out the garage. The wife does not want me storing parts I am not using.
    If I was keeping the yellow car, I'd want yours for myself. As it is, I don't want to spend more money on a car I'm trying to sell.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Default headers/Stock exhaust

    Hi Mark,
    I'd go as small primaries as you can find for a stock 240, on the street, unless you plan on really winding it.....

    That being said, if you are interested, I do have a couple of stock manifolds, you're welcome to check out if needed...and Mackamans stepped ITS header...that could be bought for a bargain...the stock manifolds are even less if you are looking that direction, I think I owe you for a windshield anyway.
    I'm sure you've seen the write up by Katman years back comparing headers to the stock 280 manifold...I think maybe 2 HP/Torque difference? Over on Zhome.com.......

    Quieter/heavier....vs.....2-3 HP, louder "maybe a good thing?"

    Headers do look cooler as well.

    Personal preference issue

    David

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Sorry Jmark, I am in Phoenix racing this weekend.

    Les says nothing more than 1 1/2"

  16. #16
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys. Keep it coming. Stahl is the only header mfg. that makes a 1 3/8" & 1 1/2" primary header as far as I know. Jere is going to get back to me on his recommendation. From what I am seeing the one point everyone agrees on is the Stahl is tops. Katman recommended a Stahl 1 3/8" or 1 1/2". David what does Mack's header look like? Is it one similar to what Sunbelt uses? How big are the primaries on it? Anyone here actually using a Stahl header?
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  17. #17
    Not enough Zs yet! nwcubsman's Avatar
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    You may want to e-mail Jock Rhodes.
    jock@billsdatsun.com
    He has a header that is good for a stock L24, at least that is what I've heard. He is knowledgable and you may want to talk to him. I don't know the price. All I have seen is painted, but I'm sure he or you can get it coated. I personally prefer the ceramic coatings. They have been very resilient.
    Bryan
    ___________________________________________
    12/72 240Z, HLS30139612
    2/73 240Z, HLS30149546
    IZCC #14892

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    Default Header....

    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    Katman recommended a Stahl 1 3/8" or 1 1/2". David what does Mack's header look like? Is it one similar to what Sunbelt uses? How big are the primaries on it? ?
    Mackamans is a stepped header that could be made to look acceptable....Welds are a little rough but is quite functional...I'll send you a picture when I'm back home.

    David

  19. #19
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Thanks David. I saw your old car at the HPDE event at VIR this weekend. JT was there in your old Hybrid 240Z.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  20. #20
    Registered User Phred's Avatar
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    Default I Bought $tahl

    These are 1.5" primary, 2" collector. Worked great on ITS 240, and on street 240. Will use them on a 3.0 since I have them, probably a bit small for 3.0, but should work fine for street racer.
    Phred
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  21. #21
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phred View Post
    These are 1.5" primary, 2" collector. Worked great on ITS 240, and on street 240. Will use them on a 3.0 since I have them, probably a bit small for 3.0, but should work fine for street racer.
    Phred
    Sweet. Did you coat them or just use his normal finish?Do you have to do separate exhaust or can you go to one?
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  22. #22
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    I'll let everyone know what Jere Stahl has to say once he gives me recommendations.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    Default Another option?

    Hi,

    I use a Clifford Research (Clfford Performance) header with a stock L24, stock L28, and a L28 with a E31 & N42 head, and it has lasted well over 20 years. It was sold through Nissan orginally with their dual exhaust (in the early 70's). I beleive the header is still available, but the dual exhaust is long gone. It even had a option for smog fittings. Fits greaat, stock shield fits, however, you need to use a Nissan thick gasket. There motto: 6=8

    Not sure how to contact these guys, but they make/made a ton of stuff for I6 for Jeeps, Fords, Chevy, etc..... They were located in Corona, CA. There web page was/or still is: cliffordperformance.net

    Great product, if they still made that orginal dual exhaust that they produce for Nissan Motorsport, I would buy it in a minute. I had it on my Z in the 70's, the write up was " it would wake up the nearly dead"........

  24. #24
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70z4fun View Post
    Hi,

    I use a Clifford Research (Clfford Performance) header with a stock L24, stock L28, and a L28 with a E31 & N42 head, and it has lasted well over 20 years. It was sold through Nissan orginally with their dual exhaust (in the early 70's). I beleive the header is still available, but the dual exhaust is long gone. It even had a option for smog fittings. Fits greaat, stock shield fits, however, you need to use a Nissan thick gasket. There motto: 6=8

    Not sure how to contact these guys, but they make/made a ton of stuff for I6 for Jeeps, Fords, Chevy, etc..... They were located in Corona, CA. There web page was/or still is: cliffordperformance.net

    Great product, if they still made that orginal dual exhaust that they produce for Nissan Motorsport, I would buy it in a minute. I had it on my Z in the 70's, the write up was " it would wake up the nearly dead"........
    Don't seem to show the Z products anymore......
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  25. #25
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Jere Stahl emailed me that 1 3/8" would be fine for a stock 240Z. His company hasn't bent 1 3/8" since last year! Expects to do a run soon.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  26. #26
    Registered User Phred's Avatar
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    Default $tahl Header

    jmark,
    The finish in the pic is "as recieved" from Stahl. It's just paint. I am waiting till after I dyno my next eng. to refinish them with one of the high tech coatings. I really like the dual exh. sound, so I took the time to build a full dual system all the way to the outlets. You can easily buy or build a two into one merge collector for a single pipe system. When I first saw the race Z's in the early 70's, they had duals with megaphones straight out the center in back. So that's what influenced me. I used all mandrel bends and heli-arc'd the whole thing with a short crossover just ahead of the muffs. At the rear, I did a zig-zag around the fuel cell and built a resonator with two small race type muffs welded together. They have a 2.5 ID x 4" OD x 12" long, and I finished it off with a couple stainless tips. The only bummer with the side to side layout was I had to enlarge the cutout in the rear bodywork. I tried a stock type verical layout, but the lower muff was too close to the ground. Back in 98' when I bought this header, it was $512.00. I'll be interested to know what they go for now.
    Phred
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    I too like the dual exhaust, but the early systems either had the megaphone output with no glass packs or glass packs stacked so they would fit the single output on the drivers side. It would have two chrome tips right on top of each other going out where the stock muffler was located.

    I am not sure why the MSA dual system also has them side by side? I need to look at my old Nissan Motorsport catalog to see if there is a good picture. The megaphones would attach where the glass pack section came off.........

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phred View Post
    jmark,
    The finish in the pic is "as recieved" from Stahl. It's just paint. I am waiting till after I dyno my next eng. to refinish them with one of the high tech coatings. I really like the dual exh. sound, so I took the time to build a full dual system all the way to the outlets. You can easily buy or build a two into one merge collector for a single pipe system. When I first saw the race Z's in the early 70's, they had duals with megaphones straight out the center in back. So that's what influenced me. I used all mandrel bends and heli-arc'd the whole thing with a short crossover just ahead of the muffs. At the rear, I did a zig-zag around the fuel cell and built a resonator with two small race type muffs welded together. They have a 2.5 ID x 4" OD x 12" long, and I finished it off with a couple stainless tips. The only bummer with the side to side layout was I had to enlarge the cutout in the rear bodywork. I tried a stock type verical layout, but the lower muff was too close to the ground. Back in 98' when I bought this header, it was $512.00. I'll be interested to know what they go for now.
    Phred
    Paint seems to have held up well. I think it is rated to 1800 F. I am not sure the ceramic coating is rated that high!
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  29. #29
    Registered User 240ZGL's Avatar
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    Default

    70Z4fun, I have one of those meg setups.
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    Last edited by 240ZGL; 02-13-2007 at 06:34 PM.
    HLS30-143697 1973 110 ORANGE
    Period correct performance restoration
    Sanyo Sport kit induction, Datsun Comp exhaust. Datsun Comp internals. "C" grind cam
    Mallory DP ignition W/ Pertronix kit. Koni struts, Koni RallySport springs. Euro rear sway bar
    Who said they don't build em like they use to.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Rogan View Post
    I agree with Mark as well. For an un-modified L-24 street car, the stock manifold flows well enough and you avoid all the fitment and droning problems.

    If you must go with a header, you might want to consider ordering from the Jet-Hot Coatings website. I got a Pacesetter Header from them direct. They ordered the header, coated it and shipped it right to my door for around $300.
    I was impressed with the quality of the workmanship and had no installation issues.

    Just another option to consider.

    Marty

    Marty - What coating did you have Jet-Hot put on yours? I'm sending mine out to them tomorrow, along with my intake. I specified the Extreme Sterling which is rated for 1700 degrees. It has a slightly textured finish. They are doing both inside & outside of the header and just the outside on the Cannon intake. They quoted a price of $280.00. They are aluminum oxide blasted first and they will pay the return shipping. I thought that was reasonable since the header is virtualy irreplaceable and I want it to last. Doing the intake will reduce heat transfer somewhat.

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    Default Factory Dual Exhaust System?

    I wonder if there was enough interest in headers and the dual exhaust system that Nissan sold back in the 70's, if Clifford Research would reproduce these for us that want a performance system, but want to keep something original?

    I did talk to them earlier in the week about the headers, and they were going to check the old stock.

    I have the header, but would love to go back to the dual system. When I talked to them, they were saying it was hard to compete with all the systems out there at the time, plus muffler shops doing some thing.

    There system was great, and modular and you could install it with out going to the muffler shop.

    Any interest?

    Bob

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    Hi Bob - That is the system I'm using. It is an original from a Fairlady Z (optional). Even though the Fairlady Z was RH drive it bolts right up with no clearance issues on a LH drive. I've been down that road before, trying to duplicate a set of headers that I designed & built. Although we had more than 20 people commited to buy a set, we couldn't find anyone to mass produce them at a price that was affordable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70z4fun View Post
    I wonder if there was enough interest in headers and the dual exhaust system that Nissan sold back in the 70's, if Clifford Research would reproduce these for us that want a performance system, but want to keep something original?

    I did talk to them earlier in the week about the headers, and they were going to check the old stock.

    I have the header, but would love to go back to the dual system. When I talked to them, they were saying it was hard to compete with all the systems out there at the time, plus muffler shops doing some thing.

    There system was great, and modular and you could install it with out going to the muffler shop.

    Any interest?

    Bob
    Let me know what they say about the old stock. I have heard good things about the 1 1/2" Clifford research header.
    Last edited by jmark; 02-14-2007 at 06:21 AM.
    Mark
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    I have been talking with Sal at MSA & they have redesigned the flanges on the headers & made some adjustments for fitting issues as well. They are working on the exhaust system drone as well. Their header primaries are 1 1/2".
    Mark
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    Bob - I would be interested in seeing a picture of the Clifford Research header, to compare to the original Fairlady Z one I have. I've never seen one. If that's not possible I can take some pics of mine for you to compare. I searched the net and couldn't find one picture of either one. Anyone who is concerned with weight would not want this system. Heavy and bullet proof.

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    Default msa header

    Jmark,
    I would ask them (msa) if they addressed the fitment issue with the on pipe hitting the intake as I stated in my earlier post-first page
    The flange is much better!!! I supposedly got the first one of the lastest version if that makes sense. It is 100% better then the one I sent back to them.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Quote Originally Posted by madkaw View Post
    Jmark,
    I would ask them (msa) if they addressed the fitment issue with the on pipe hitting the intake as I stated in my earlier post-first page
    The flange is much better!!! I supposedly got the first one of the lastest version if that makes sense. It is 100% better then the one I sent back to them.
    What did Sal say to you about the 2nd header fitting issue?
    Mark
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    Just my opinion, take it for what its worth...

    No header ever made is a bolt on part. They all require some level of port matching and fitting to get all the benefits headers are supposed to provide. Even the Stahl header requires some port matching to the gasket and head and its the best that's available short of something custom. Every header I've ever installed on an L6 (Stahl, Nissan Comp, MSA 6/2 6/1) has required work with a carbide bit and I never buy them chromed or coated because of this. After I get the part fitted I send it out for a proper finish.

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    Sounds like good advice John.
    Mark
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    I believe Sal side stepped the issue gracefully saying that he was going to get with his vendor on this issue. He creditied me a small amount for my aggravation.
    But let me say again there was no comparison between the two headers. I would have NOT accepted the first header because it didn't even line up with the ports well. I gasket matched to check alignment and the forward tubes were off an 1/8". The newer header port lined very well and the flange is far superior.Even the welds were better and the port areas of the pipes were smoother without voids. I will live with grinding off some aluminum from my intake in an area that will not effect the intake .
    Un fortunetly that is the best MSA can do right now I guess, but like it has been said it is hard to be 100% satisfied especially at that price.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    I will glad to post some pics of the header since it is off the engine right now. Unfortunetly I am stuck out of town in the blizzard so it will be a day or so.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Default

    I went with Arizona Z Car 6-1 header. The flange was the right thickness and the whole thing bolted up easily.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    71 240Z HLS3019867 1/71 prod. date
    Z-THERAPY carbs
    Pertronix ign, Flamethrower coil, Taylor 8mm wires
    Motorsport blade fuse box
    ARIZONA Z-CAR 6-1 header
    Centerforce clutch
    Tokico Illumina 5 way struts rear, KYB front
    Courtesy Nissan OEM springs
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    One more quick note. I should state that I ordered the 6 into 2 header pipe so the fit characteristics might be completely different then the 6 to 1 pipe!
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Quote Originally Posted by zztom View Post
    I went with Arizona Z Car 6-1 header. The flange was the right thickness and the whole thing bolted up easily.
    zztom the motor looks sweet.
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by madkaw View Post
    I will glad to post some pics of the header since it is off the engine right now. Unfortunetly I am stuck out of town in the blizzard so it will be a day or so.
    Please do.
    Mark
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    From the Stahl website......
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    Mark
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    Thanks Mark....
    71 240Z HLS3019867 1/71 prod. date
    Z-THERAPY carbs
    Pertronix ign, Flamethrower coil, Taylor 8mm wires
    Motorsport blade fuse box
    ARIZONA Z-CAR 6-1 header
    Centerforce clutch
    Tokico Illumina 5 way struts rear, KYB front
    Courtesy Nissan OEM springs
    American Racing Outlaw I wheels

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    Default msa 6 into 2

    Here is those pics Jmark.
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    Steve
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    Looks like Nissan Sport Magazine is going to take my suggestion and do test of the main headers available for a stock 240Z motor. Art's car will be the test bed. Hopefully they can test examples from MSA 3-2 & 6-1 1 1/2" primary, Stahl 1 3/8" & 1 1/2" 3-2, Nissan Motorsports 1 5/8" primary, Arizona Z 1 1/2" primary & Pacesetter.
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    Looks like Nissan Sport Magazine is going to take my suggestion and do test of the main headers available for a stock 240Z motor. Art's car will be the test bed. Hopefully they can test examples from MSA 3-2 & 6-1 1 1/2" primary, Stahl 1 3/8" & 1 1/2" 3-2, Nissan Motorsports 1 5/8" primary, Arizona Z 1 1/2" primary & Pacesetter.
    Bump for those who missed this.
    Mark
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    I have been talking to Sal at MSA he says they are going to be carrying Stahl headers soon in addition to their MSA brand.
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70z4fun View Post
    Hi,

    I use a Clifford Research (Clfford Performance) header with a stock L24, stock L28, and a L28 with a E31 & N42 head, and it has lasted well over 20 years. It was sold through Nissan orginally with their dual exhaust (in the early 70's). I beleive the header is still available, but the dual exhaust is long gone. It even had a option for smog fittings. Fits greaat, stock shield fits, however, you need to use a Nissan thick gasket. There motto: 6=8

    Not sure how to contact these guys, but they make/made a ton of stuff for I6 for Jeeps, Fords, Chevy, etc..... They were located in Corona, CA. There web page was/or still is: cliffordperformance.net

    Great product, if they still made that orginal dual exhaust that they produce for Nissan Motorsport, I would buy it in a minute. I had it on my Z in the 70's, the write up was " it would wake up the nearly dead"........
    There is a NOS Clifford Research Header for a round port on ebay right now.
    Mark
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    Nothing against, Sal or the guys at MSA, but Stahl headers are already available from Classic Datsun, and the pricing should be better from Les.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    Nothing against, Sal or the guys at MSA, but Stahl headers are already available from Classic Datsun, and the pricing should be better from Les.
    Ron, I asked Les for his opinion and he mentioned if price was no object go with the Stahl. I did not get the impression he carried the Stahl line. He also felt that the new MSA headers were decent. I have ordered many items from Les & Sal. As far as I am concerned both do a great job for the Z community & I have great respect for both of them.
    Mark
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    I will tell you that I am biased, MSA is fine, and Sal is a good guy.

    Les is the smaller player who sells service with his parts so I try to support him as best I can. I am sure it is different for you because you are across the country from both these locations. MSA and Les are less than 50miles from my location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    I will tell you that I am biased, MSA is fine, and Sal is a good guy.

    Les is the smaller player who sells service with his parts so I try to support him as best I can. I am sure it is different for you because you are across the country from both these locations. MSA and Les are less than 50miles from my location.
    No problem. I wish I had the choices you have there. Les would redo my 71 240Z one day! I have spent more than I care to admit in both stores.... From what Sal says there is not much margin on the Stahl headers so maybe Les doesn't push them.
    Mark
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    Les is not a margin guy. Anyone who knows Les well, knows that he will recommend the right thing for you, even if it costs him a sale.

    His detailed knowledge of these cars is amazing but narrow. He does nothing with FI cars, or any of the later Z and ZX cars. His niche covers all Roadsters, 210's, 510's and 240, 260 and a little with the 280Z's.

    He doesn't have a catalogue, and minimal overhead. He has a fine collection of rare hard to find parts, a number of racing and high performance parts.

    He specializes in restorations, mostly roadsters, and 240Z's and an occasional 510. His work is the best I have ever seen and he is going 100 different directions on 30 different projects at any given time. If anything he can be a little short on the phone because he is that busy, and he gets a lot of calls for stuff that he does not deal with. So when you call him be sure to be specific regarding your call.

    Les also does race support for me and 5 other datsun race cars in his "spare time", and he is trying to parlay that into a business rather than doing restorations. His motors are excellent, and my 2000 roadster continues to run extremely well with a full season of racing. I have several race transmissions that have been built or refreshed by his shop. Hard to find parts for my Ultra close and Medium Close roadster transmissions are always a challenge and Les has been there to make it happen each time. The same with my differentials for my roadster...

    I will get off my soap box now....

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    Les has always made time whenever I have called. Just wish he wasn't on the other side of the country. I'd love to see what he could do with my '71 240Z.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
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    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
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    Check these guys out "if only for the wow factor". My guess is that the pricing will be enormous. They look like art but a shame you can't see them under the carbs and a heat sheild.

    http://www7.plala.or.jp/ysgarage/
    Zed not Zee

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    CZCC #1608

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    Les and MSA (Sal) are both good folk to deal with. I've always had good experiences with both - except Sal will stop talking for a second to take a breath. Les, once he's rolling, seems to be able to talk for minutes at a time without breathing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    Les is not a margin guy. Anyone who knows Les well, knows that he will recommend the right thing for you, even if it costs him a sale.

    His detailed knowledge of these cars is amazing but narrow. He does nothing with FI cars, or any of the later Z and ZX cars. His niche covers all Roadsters, 210's, 510's and 240, 260 and a little with the 280Z's.

    He doesn't have a catalogue, and minimal overhead. He has a fine collection of rare hard to find parts, a number of racing and high performance parts.

    He specializes in restorations, mostly roadsters, and 240Z's and an occasional 510. His work is the best I have ever seen and he is going 100 different directions on 30 different projects at any given time. If anything he can be a little short on the phone because he is that busy, and he gets a lot of calls for stuff that he does not deal with. So when you call him be sure to be specific regarding your call.

    Les also does race support for me and 5 other datsun race cars in his "spare time", and he is trying to parlay that into a business rather than doing restorations. His motors are excellent, and my 2000 roadster continues to run extremely well with a full season of racing. I have several race transmissions that have been built or refreshed by his shop. Hard to find parts for my Ultra close and Medium Close roadster transmissions are always a challenge and Les has been there to make it happen each time. The same with my differentials for my roadster...

    I will get off my soap box now....
    Ron, Most of us are familiar with Les through the restoration program. But how do you get ahold of the shop? They don't have a website do they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadflo View Post
    Ron, Most of us are familiar with Les through the restoration program. But how do you get ahold of the shop? They don't have a website do they?


    http://www.classicdatsun.com/

    Chris A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    there are these too....

    BRE header?
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


  66. #66

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    Here's some pics of a Clifford Research header for round port heads that I just grabbed on eBay. It may have even been from someone here, dunno. Can't wait until it comes.....even though it will be a while before I do my engine swap and get to use it.
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    =Enigma=
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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    yep....
    What size primaries Ron? That looks like a piece of art.
    Last edited by jmark; 02-23-2007 at 04:27 AM.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by =Enigma= View Post
    Here's some pics of a Clifford Research header for round port heads that I just grabbed on eBay. It may have even been from someone here, dunno. Can't wait until it comes.....even though it will be a while before I do my engine swap and get to use it.
    If it had been a square port I would have been bidding. Glad to see a board member got it.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    You got a great deal. That is less than the cost of the coating on it. That header will last for decades. If it was a square port it would have gone for a lot more. Glad it worked out for someone here.

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    I had put a bid on it too, but you guys took it over my meager "if nobody else really wants it" bid. Like Ron siad-great buy!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    JMark, It has been so long I would have to go back and measure...

    I think they are 1.5" but that is a guess. I will have the car out for a photo shoot in a couple of weeks and will measure for you.

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    Z Club of San Diego Montezuma's Avatar
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    I was looking at MSA's header that was listed on ebay(a new marking idea that MSA has), anyway...it said that the header is "not for automatics" can anyone tell me why? I am just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montezuma View Post
    I was looking at MSA's header that was listed on ebay(a new marking idea that MSA has), anyway...it said that the header is "not for automatics" can anyone tell me why? I am just curious.
    The automatic tranny is wider than the manual and the header hits the side of the valve body where the transmission oil pan bolts on. The header will not bolt up flush to the cylinder head because of this.

    Trust me, I know for a fact. Tried it on the 72 that I gave to Bill Ramsey (fun in my z).

    Chris A.
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    Z Club of San Diego Montezuma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    The automatic tranny is wider than the manual and the header hits the side of the valve body where the transmission oil pan bolts on. The header will not bolt up flush to the cylinder head because of this.

    Trust me, I know for a fact. Tried it on the 72 that I gave to Bill Ramsey (fun in my z).

    Chris A.
    I understand......my friend gave me a really killer JDM header....but I guess I may not be able to use it. Not all headers are designed the same so maybe it may work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montezuma View Post
    I understand......my friend gave me a really killer JDM header....but I guess I may not be able to use it. Not all headers are designed the same so maybe it may work.

    So true my friend. I could have taken the header to a muffler shop and had things bent and tweaked to fit around the tranny. But in the end it wasnt worth it. The header was old and the car (L28 w/SU's) ran great with stock exhaust.

    You'll just have to bite the bullet and try and fit it into your car. I'm guessing
    you have an auto-tranny then?

    Regards,
    Chris A.
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    So true my friend. I could have taken the header to a muffler shop and had things bent and tweaked to fit around the tranny. But in the end it wasnt worth it. The header was old and the car (L28 w/SU's) ran great with stock exhaust.

    You'll just have to bite the bullet and try and fit it into your car. I'm guessing
    you have an auto-tranny then?

    Regards,
    Chris A.
    Yup auto with a broken stud in the exhaust manifold. The header actually cost me a used Coor's Neon light. My friend who game me the header will be the one that will help me install it. This one might be worth tweaking to make it work.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    So true my friend. I could have taken the header to a muffler shop and had things bent and tweaked to fit around the tranny. But in the end it wasnt worth it. The header was old and the car (L28 w/SU's) ran great with stock exhaust.

    You'll just have to bite the bullet and try and fit it into your car. I'm guessing
    you have an auto-tranny then?

    Regards,
    Chris A.
    Yup auto with a broken stud in the exhaust manifold. The header actually cost me a used Coor's Neon light. My friend who game me the header will be the one that will help me install it. This one might be worth tweaking to make it work.

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    Supporting Member ChrisA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montezuma View Post
    This one might be worth tweaking to make it work.
    Absolutely, let us know how it goes.

    Chris A.
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    JMark, It has been so long I would have to go back and measure...

    I think they are 1.5" but that is a guess. I will have the car out for a photo shoot in a couple of weeks and will measure for you.
    Thanks!
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    You got a great deal. That is less than the cost of the coating on it. That header will last for decades. If it was a square port it would have gone for a lot more. Glad it worked out for someone here.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    If it had been a square port I would have been bidding. Glad to see a board member got it.
    Yep. I was counting on the fact that most people are looking for square port headers and would pass this one up, but I still expected to pay more. I was actually quite surprised when I saw the final bid. Sometimes it just works out that way. This will go perfect with my soon to be ported P79 head. I'm a very happy camper to say the least. I'll be even happier when it arrives at my doorstep.
    =Enigma=
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    My name is Adam and I'm a Zeeoholic!

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by =Enigma= View Post
    Yep. I was counting on the fact that most people are looking for square port headers and would pass this one up, but I still expected to pay more. I was actually quite surprised when I saw the final bid. Sometimes it just works out that way. This will go perfect with my soon to be ported P79 head. I'm a very happy camper to say the least. I'll be even happier when it arrives at my doorstep.
    Let us know how the header works out.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
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    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwcubsman View Post
    You may want to e-mail Jock Rhodes.
    jock@billsdatsun.com
    He has a header that is good for a stock L24, at least that is what I've heard. He is knowledgable and you may want to talk to him. I don't know the price. All I have seen is painted, but I'm sure he or you can get it coated. I personally prefer the ceramic coatings. They have been very resilient.
    I see Jock has his headers for sell on Ebay now.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
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    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    I see Jock has his headers for sell on Ebay now.
    Has anybody here used this header?
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
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    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    I picked up a vintage copy of "How to Modify 510, 610, 240Z Engines & Chassis" printed 1973. In it Jere Stahl discusses the merit of using a 1 3/8" primary header on a stock motor 240Z. Great book if you can get a copy.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
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    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
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    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    I picked up a vintage copy of "How to Modify 510, 610, 240Z Engines & Chassis" printed 1973. In it Jere Stahl discusses the merit of using a 1 3/8" primary header on a stock motor 240Z. Great book if you can get a copy.
    This is the book I am talking about.
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    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
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    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    Master of Weaponry Dtsnlvrs's Avatar
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    Any new word on Clifford tooling up to produce some more Z headers. I just installed a Pacesetter via Jet-Hot, but would replace it right away if I could get a Clifford!!!
    Russell A. Buckwalter
    SFC US Army
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    She now lives on a showroom floor.....I WILL BUILD ANOTHER ONE

    If Nissan Motorsports is NISMO, is Honda Motorsports HOMO?

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Not that I have heard Russell. =Enigma= bought a nice one off Ebay.
    Mark
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    Supporting Member =Enigma='s Avatar
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    Well I got the header and it's in pretty good shape, however the flange seems to be fairly warped. This might be by design and I'd love someone to comment, but I won't know until I go to mount it. This won't happen for a while. If I find that I need to have the flange planed or ground level, it shouldn't be too big a deal since it's so damn thick. The header will eventually make it way onto a 280ZX motor I grabbed a while back for a swap.

    I tracked down the seller (Peter somthing) to the zcar.com forum where he posted some info that I wish I had before bidding, but all in all I'm satisfied at this point. We'll see what happens when I go to mount it.....

    Here's a link to the info he posted on zcar.com:
    http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...30366&t=630349

    According to Peter:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete1978Z
    I just layed the straight edge over the flange area. If you were looking at it in the car, it's convex at 3 & 4 then 1 & 6 pull away about 3/16". And there is a slight twist.
    Last edited by =Enigma=; 03-14-2007 at 12:30 AM.
    =Enigma=
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    =Enigma= The best thing you could do at this point is buy a new gasket. Who knows how old and deformed the one that came with the header is. Then you will be able to port match the header to the head. First use a feeler gauge to find out how far out of flat it is by mounting it to the head without a gasket. After the flange is milled the apropriate amount, port match the head to the gasket and the header to the gasket as well. I don't know if you are using inserts or not. Have you bolted it to your head yet? If there is a twist that prevents it from being bolted on properly, that will have to be addressed first. It's a shame this wasn't done before it was coated. you will just have to be more careful with it. After all is said and done, you will still have gotten a great header for the money. Good Luck, and let us know how you make out with it.

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Just a heads up, you'll soon be able to order Stahl headers for your Z from MSA.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    Z Club of San Diego Montezuma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    Just a heads up, you'll soon be able to order Stahl headers for your Z from MSA.
    Sal was at our Z club meeting last Tuesday night; he announced that; yes, MSA will sell Stahl headers but they will not be cheap. I think the price was up around $900. He also mentioned that the MSA header has been improved.

  93. #93
    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Hi guys, I would order directly from Jere.

    Model #28
    240Z, 260Z, 280Z Size Price
    1-3/8" Assembled $775.00
    1-1/2" Assembled $775.00
    1-5/8" Assembled $775.00
    1-3/4" Assembled $775.00

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    Hi guys, I would order directly from Jere.

    Model #28
    240Z, 260Z, 280Z Size Price
    1-3/8" Assembled $775.00
    1-1/2" Assembled $775.00
    1-5/8" Assembled $775.00
    1-3/4" Assembled $775.00
    Ron, Those are old prices. If you read the note on the website it mentions this. I think the new price is $862.

    http://www.stahlheaders.com/index.htm
    Last edited by jmark; 03-14-2007 at 03:59 PM.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
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    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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    If you're going to lay down $900 for a header you might as well do a before and after dyno run to show us all what the difference is.
    Jon

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    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    Hopefully Nissan Sport is going to test a bunch of headers for a future issue. I believe they are going to use Art's Z.
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
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  97. #97
    Not enough Zs yet! nwcubsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmark View Post
    I see Jock has his headers for sell on Ebay now.
    Hi jmark,

    Sorry for not seeing your question till now.

    Actually, Jock has sold them on ebay for years. He has told me so, at least. I only recently saw his ebay store for the 1st time. I have not personally used his header although he tried hard to sell me one. I opted for the MSA 6-2 and was sorry I did. I do have a friend that uses his 6-1 header and he likes it alot. His is a very strong car.

    Good luck!
    Bryan
    ___________________________________________
    12/72 240Z, HLS30139612
    2/73 240Z, HLS30149546
    IZCC #14892

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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    =Enigma= The best thing you could do at this point is buy a new gasket. Who knows how old and deformed the one that came with the header is. Then you will be able to port match the header to the head. First use a feeler gauge to find out how far out of flat it is by mounting it to the head without a gasket. After the flange is milled the apropriate amount, port match the head to the gasket and the header to the gasket as well. I don't know if you are using inserts or not. Have you bolted it to your head yet? If there is a twist that prevents it from being bolted on properly, that will have to be addressed first. It's a shame this wasn't done before it was coated. you will just have to be more careful with it. After all is said and done, you will still have gotten a great header for the money. Good Luck, and let us know how you make out with it.
    Thanks for the words of advice. It will be awhile before I have a chance to get to this but I'll certainly fill you in once I dive fit. I may even try a test fitting on the spare engine after I finish up with the current project. Hopefully by April15th........
    =Enigma=
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    My name is Adam and I'm a Zeeoholic!

  99. #99
    '71 240Z, '78 280Z jmark's Avatar
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    MSA has the Stahl header online now.

    http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/CTGY/PEC25
    Mark
    '71 240Z White 904
    VIN HLS3022975
    '78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
    VIN HLS30468702
    IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
    '07 Nismo 350Z Silver Alloy Serial #0007
    VIN JN1BZ34E47M552354


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