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Thread: Sticky EFI thread, please chip in FI guys!

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    Car Guy
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    Smile Sticky EFI thread, please chip in FI guys!

    Since there has always seemed to be a lot of threads with people in need of help with their 280z EFI systems, I have come up with an idea that might get those people in need of help on the right track and give them a little basic knowledge about how the fi's on these cars work! This in return would give us a break on not having to explain everything and how the efi system work so often as they could refer back to the sticky post for those types of questions. Not only this, but they could refer back that post for example and they will know what the parts are called so there wouldn't be anymore of the "black part on the top left", but the actual name and part so we would know exactly what their talking about the first time. I'm not however implying that this post would be all the answers to all their techincal questions, that's not the point of it. The point is to give them a basic understanding of how the Bosch efi system works on these cars and what the parts are called before they ask their question. That's why the sticky post would be called "Please read before you post your efi question" at the top of the help and fi sections of the forum.

    Basically this might include a link to the atlantic Z car page and a link to the the efi bible. Better yet, a diagram that shows the names of all the parts on the fi system that could be posted right into the post so it's easier to refer to for part names without clicking the links. I would do this from my book, but my scannor I can't seem to get my scanner to work.

    Before I posted this, I pm'd Stephen (sblake01) as he is our big fi guy here on the board and he thought that is was a good idea so I forwarded the message to Mike who in return liked the idea. There are down sides to everything, and like Stephen mentioned, different model years differ and sometimes these cars get tampered with by previous owners. This is why it would be great if all you efi guys could chip in and post links, diagrams information, common problems (all efi related) or whatever you feel is necessary to be included in this post. Please keep it as simple as possible. Since a lot of us own different years of 280Z's, you might have some stuff to chip in on here as you're familiar with that particular year of car. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

    I will wait maybe a week or so and this will go you all a good chance to post what you want into the post. Once this is done, I will copy and paste everything into one post and send it to Mike who in return be the one to make the sticky post.

    Like I said my scanner is not working at this time to post that diagram of the efi names and pictures of each part, but will keep working on it. Here are the links to the EFI bible and the Atlantic Z car page. I will start off:

    Electronic Fuel pump- Pumps fuel from the tank to the engine

    Fuel Damper- Acts as "muffler- that is, it keeps pressure surges from making noises which could be heard by the driver

    Fuel Filter- Filters out particles in the fuel before reaching the inectors

    Fuel injector- Spray fuel into the combustion chamber

    Dropping Resistor- Causes a voltage drop so that the injector operates on less battery voltage and also protects the injector from voltage surges coming from the alternator from the effects of other parts in the electrical system.

    Electronic Control Unit (ECU)- Controls the injectors by turning their ground on and off. Governs how much fuel is injected by holding the injectors open for longer or shorter periods of time.

    Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR)- Keep the pressure in the fuel system to a constant 36 psi.

    Air Flow Meter (AFM)- Measures the amount of air coming into the intake mainifold. The more air passing through, the farther the flap inside will be pushed open.

    Idle speed screw- Use it to adjust the idle speed

    Throttle Position Switch(TPS)- Contains a set of contacts inside that tell the ecu if the engine is either idling or declerating.

    Water Temperature Sensor- Allows the ecu to richen the mixture until the engine arrives at opperating temperature.

    Air Temperature Sensor- Measures the temperature of the air coming in from the air cleaner.

    Cold Start Valve- A seventh injector to add additional fuel on a cold start up. Only gets current when the starter is cranking.

    Thermotime Switch- Opperates according to both temperature and time. (Hopefully somebody can come up with a better definition than that).

    Air regulator- Allows the engine to be at a fast idle to aid in warm up.


    http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/EFI&fuel.htm
    http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techti...ectionbook.pdf
    http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techti...e_Bulletin.pdf

    Please chip in what you would like to see in this post!
    Last edited by 76Datsun280z; 12-13-2007 at 03:54 PM.

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    Registered User 280z1975's Avatar
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    I would suggest putting a photo of each of the EFI components and then also a larger shot of the engine bay with them labeled.

    Since I suggested the idea I will also implement the idea to ... just won't happen till Monday or Tuesday as I have work all weekend long.

    On a better note, my car is now registered, licensed and insured to terrorize the Belgian roads ... that only took 6 months to complete!
    -Gregg Germer -

    1975 280z - HLS30-210542
    My 280z's Webpage - http://www.gregggermer.com/280z.htm - a chronicle of it's transformation

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    Registered User mgood's Avatar
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    Great info from you both, my car runs great now but you never know. The info is always helpful.
    Michael 11/75 - 76-280 - HLS30-281,114
    Web site -Click Here and ORIGINAL OWNERS OF THE 280Z (1975-1976 -1977 - 1978 - ONLY) REGISTRATION[

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    Quote Originally Posted by 76Datsun280z View Post
    Thermotime Switch- Opperates according to both temperature and time. (Hopefully somebody can come up with a better definition than that).
    the thermotime switch controls the cold start valve, by changing the ground as the engine heats up. turns the cold start valve off so it doesn't have a rich mixture a long time after startup.

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    Actually, the thermotime switch has a coil that begins to heat up when it gets a signal from the starter but only when the coolant temperature is below 35 deg. C. and will only operate for a maximum of 8 seconds at which point the cold start valve will close. It really doesn't have anything to do with the mixture other than allowing the fuel to flow through the cold start valve during that duration.
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks gusy,

    Since I suggested the idea I will also implement the idea to ... just won't happen till Monday or Tuesday as I have work all weekend long.
    That would be great!

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    Car Guy
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    For any 280z owners that are in need of fuel injection help, please refer to these links and information given on this page before you make a post in the help section so you will have a better understanding of how the fuel injection system works on your car. By doing this, it will in hope give you a better understanding of what the problem is and when you do post your question, it will in return give our fuel injection guru's a better understanding of what the problem is on your car.




    Electronic Fuel pump- Pumps fuel from the tank to the engine

    Fuel Damper- Acts as "muffler- that is, it keeps pressure surges from making noises which could be heard by the driver

    Fuel Filter- Filters out particles in the fuel before reaching the inectors

    Fuel injector- Spray fuel into the combustion chamber

    Dropping Resistor- Causes a voltage drop so that the injector operates on less battery voltage and also protects the injector from voltage surges coming from the alternator from the effects of other parts in the electrical system.

    Electronic Control Unit (ECU)- Controls the injectors by turning their ground on and off. Governs how much fuel is injected by holding the injectors open for longer or shorter periods of time.

    Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR)- Keep the pressure in the fuel system to a constant 36 psi.

    Air Flow Meter (AFM)- Measures the amount of air coming into the intake mainifold. The more air passing through, the farther the flap inside will be pushed open.

    Idle speed screw- Use it to adjust the idle speed

    Throttle Position Switch(TPS)- Contains a set of contacts inside that tell the ecu if the engine is either idling or declerating.

    Water Temperature Sensor- Allows the ecu to richen the mixture until the engine arrives at opperating temperature.

    Air Temperature Sensor- Measures the temperature of the air coming in from the air cleaner.

    Cold Start Valve- A seventh injector to add additional fuel on a cold start up. Only gets current when the starter is cranking.

    Thermotime Switch- the thermotime switch has a coil that begins to heat up when it gets a signal from the starter but only when the coolant temperature is below 35 deg. C. and will only operate for a maximum of 8 seconds at which point the cold start valve will close. It really doesn't have anything to do with the mixture other than allowing the fuel to flow through the cold start valve during that duration.

    Air regulator- Allows the engine to be at a fast idle to aid in warm up.


    http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/EFI&fuel.htm
    http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techti...ectionbook.pdf
    http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techti...e_Bulletin.pdf
    Last edited by 76Datsun280z; 04-07-2008 at 08:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Sticky; FI

    My shout is Great Idea! I'm one of those guys who will be studying it. Thx!! (71' 240w/83zxt transplant)..

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    Great idea!! First question it appears.....just bought a 76 280z. runs well for about 15 minutes and then runs rough. feels like it's running rich and flooding out. i'm leaning towards a temp switch, but it doesn't sound like the thermotime switch is the bad guy based on what i've read here. any other ideas??

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    I'd lean towarards the water temperature sensor or it's connection. If it were the thermotime switch, it would take less that 15 minutes for the symptoms to show since that would likely lead to constant flow through the cold start valve.
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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    I just had my car on a lift to check the fuel pump strainer. I should've had my camera to get pics of the pump & damper for ya.

    I'll get you pix of the other things first.
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    Thanx Stephen.... i was leaning that way as well. I hate chasing electrons.....is that switch NC or NO? If it's NO, I should be able to jump it and fool the system.

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    It's not a switch. It's a thermister (I think that the electrical term). It starts with a higher resistance when the engine is cold and decreases the resistance was the coolant temp rises. It changes the fuel enrichment and fuel injection pulse as the engine warms up. If you jump it I'm not sure that will accomplish what you're trying to accomplish.
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    nope, it won't. and thermistor is correct. they were all over the airplanes i worked on. thanks!!

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    I've come up with a way on the EFI cars to help pinpoint a common problem. Using my fuel injection cannister cleaner the other day to clean out the injectors on my daughter in law's car (non Datsun), it dawned on me that I could fill the cannister with gasoline, set the pressure in it to 36 or so, attach it to the fuel rail, unplug the fuel pump relay so it doesn't pump, and run the car off the cannister. If the car runs right off the cannister, but not when normally hooked up, then the problem is either in the tank or lines or the fuel pump itself. Not sure I explained that clearly enough, but at least I understand it.
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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    This is the fuel injector cleaning tool that I mentioned in the previous post. The first tip is for the EFI cars. The cannister connects to your air compressor and the fuel pressure can be set with the regulator on top of the cannister. Attach it to your fuel rail where the line from the fuel filter goes, plug the return line below it, unplug the fuel pump relay, set the fuel pressure to about 30psi, open the valve on the bottom of the cannister, start the car, and let it run until the solvent runs out. Next to it is the cleaner I use. It's important that you plug the return line as you don't want the solvent to get in the gas tank. It's also important to disable the fuel pump so it doesn't pump fuel from the tank during the operation.

    The other can to the right is used to decarbonize. This can be done on EFI or carbed cars. Without the compressor connected to the cannister and it's pressure regulator turned off, connect the cannister to a vacuum port on the intake such as the one for the brake booster, start the car and slowly open the valve on the bottom of the cannister and little by little let the decarbonizer into the port. If you let too much in at one time, the engine will stall. It'll smoke like crazy until all of the solvent clears but, when you're done, your piston tops, valves, and combustion chambers will be clean.
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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    Isn't that pretty much the same a SeaFoam? How can you tell things are decarbonized Also, do think it would hgurt if you de-carbonized twice or twice in one summer (like once a month)?
    thxZ
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 05-25-2008 at 06:15 PM.
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    Pro Inject-R Kleen is just what the name implies. D-karbonizer is similar to Seafoam but stronger. As in you only have to do it once. Seafoam could take two or more applications. I used to use Seafoam but I like the results with OTC's products. Are you asking how can you, as in anyone, tell if things are decarbonized or how can I tell? I use a boroscope. A rather pricey tool but I've used it enough to cover the initial cost. I don't think it would 'hurt' anything to do it twice in a month with seafoam but it's not necessary. I do the D-karbonizer treatment and the fuel injection cleaning about once every year and a half or so.
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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    What are you looking at wit hthe borescope? just the piston-tops?
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    Piston tops, valves, combustion chamber. etc. Whatever you can see.
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    Rigid tools puts out an inexpensive, like 230-250 bucks, digital borescope used for looking into plumbing and closed spaces. It's way cheaper than a normal borescope and the 2 x 3 viewing screen is easier on the eyes. The head is about 1/2 inch in diameter, but should fit thru most, if not all spark plug holes. You can't really direct the head at all, but it comes with a mirror attachment and a magnet attachment. Great for finding the screw you just dropped into the cylinder..... I've used the high dollar scopes to inspect the innards of jet engines and the real cheapies to look at turbine wastegates on recip round and flat motors during my years as an aircraft mechanic. These are a good mid range scope. Any decent hardware or plumbing shop should be abale to get them.

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    I just noticed my typo up in my post. That, of course, is borescope not boroscope. Speaking of inexpensive scopes, check this out, a frend sent me the link the other day:
    http://www.1800endoscope.com/pencam.htm
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    hey guys i have a question i have had my car for a year and a half now and i had been troubleshooting it and i came down to the conclusion that the ECU is bad and i need to replace it, anyways i went to autozone to order a replacement and they only sell remanufactured ECU's well i waited a week to get it and when i got it i first realized that the one i bought was alot different from the orignal, the one i bought is longer and has missing pins where you would connect it to the Harness the part number on the one i bought its A11-600-000 and the orignal part number is A11-100-002 i was wondering will the one i bought work on my car? or where should i go so that i get the correct ECU that is the same as the orignal? any answers would be a great help
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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    The missing pins would bother me. Auto parts stores sell generic ECUs and I doubt if that one would work properly in your car. I know where a 76 ECU is but I don't know if it works or not but I assume it does because it's not the reason the car no longer runs as it is a friend's parts car. If you want me to check into it, let me know.
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    thanks stephen for the information i searched today and on MotorsportsAuto.com i found that i could order the exact one i need for around $200 but i would be interested in the one that you have, and if im not mistaken the 76 and 75 ECU are interchangable? i ask this because my car is an early 75 but i would still be happy to have any info about the ECU you have knowledge about
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    I'll have to check the numbers on his and I won't be able to do that until tomorrow. I do believe that the 75-76 are interchangable. Remember, I have no way of testing them (but I'm working on something that might allow me to do that), but I assume it's good because the car was running when he got it but he took the engine out the put it in is 240Z. I'll get back to you on this as soon as I know something because I'm sure it will cost a lot less than $200.
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    Talking runs good for 3-4 minutes then runs ruff

    Hi Zcar, I got my car running finally. ended up being a dirty connection on the temp sensor. I would like to point out that there are 4 temp probes under that top radiator hose located on the thermostat housing, I found 3 of them. thanks to this post I found the fourth one and it was the temp sensor. I was trying to match a temp sensor to my thermotime switch. till I looked at the link to the fuel injection bible. on page 28 is a picture of the thermostat housing with the 4 probes. now for that Road Test! Great site. thanks All
    Last edited by Fordlover; 01-31-2009 at 01:47 PM.

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    Default once around the block

    I got around the block with the car running fine,had to jump the starter relay as the key won't start it, almost had me thinking about keeping this japanese bucket of rust, then it started the lopeing trying to die crap. it did actually die when I got in the drive way.I need this car to run been 2 years now if it wern't for the rebuilt motor and the new tires on it I would have scraped this rice burner! Yea hows that for a RANT!
    OK I will spend the 20$ for a temp sensor tomorrow. But I need to also know where the vaccum resivour gets its vaccum from. there is a hose or 2 missing.I downloaded and searched the fcm and didn't see a vaccum diagram. I did search the site and saw a vac diagram posted on a thread about A/C heater problems but it was for a 78 model.
    heres what I am dealing with a 4/75 per data plate on the drivers door jam. So what year is it? it is fuel infected also. not a big fan of fuel injection. automatic transmission which seems to work fine. I have today took the longest ride it 4/10 of a mile. WOW! not quit a trip to FLA.I live an hour south of Atlanta. I need to figure where the vaccum relays get there vaccum from as that is one of the hoses missing. any help might just save old RUSTY>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordlover View Post
    I need to also know where the vaccum resivour gets its vaccum from. there is a hose or 2 missing.I downloaded and searched the fcm and didn't see a vaccum diagram. I did search the site and saw a vac diagram posted on a thread about A/C heater problems but it was for a 78 model.
    heres what I am dealing with a 4/75 per data plate on the drivers door jam.
    It's been 10 years since I owned my '77, but IIRC there was a single vacuum line which ran from the vac diaphram under the dash to the manifold and the other nipple on the manifold was for a "idle helper" of sorts which bolted directly to the manifold. Regardless, if they're both plugged either should affect the drivability of the car.

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    Good sticky BTW, I'd like to add my $.02. I see a lot of talk about the cold start system. When I owned my '77 back in the 90's I swapped out the fuel rail with one from a ZXturbo which had larger diameter tubing, but the catch was it did NOT have a provision for the cold start valve so it snowballed from there.

    I discarded the air regulator, cold start valve, thermotime switch, and the coolant lines which ran to a base plate sandwiched under the air regulator. I pipe plugged cold start hole and the others. It certainly cleaned up the engine bay considerably and the car ran GREAT without all that garbage. This until the first snowfall in Wisconsin.

    Also, I see no mention of the BCDD valve (hangs under throttle body). It's there to "hang" the rpm's during shifts and reduce hydrocarbons. The problem is quite often it "hangs" too much and becomes quite annoying. Fortunately the aftermarket throttle bodies, and perhaps the other OEM ones people retrofit. do not have a provision for this and it can be eliminated.
    Last edited by preith; 02-06-2009 at 01:29 PM.

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    BackDoorZ BackDoorz's Avatar
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    I'd like to add something here. I see where a lot of people are asking about fuel injectors. Which ones to use, new or remanufactured, and so forth. The following information maybe known, but here it is anyway. The link comes the Reuters website. It is a stock listing for Standard Motor Products. Under "Full Description", paragraph identified as "Engine Management Segment". As you can see Standard Motor Products makes several different brands. Are they all made to the same specs? That's a good question.

    Standard Motor Products Inc (SMP) Company Profile | Reuters.com

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    Ok, so I am a novice but learning quickly thanks to all of your posts. Would have never attempted to upgraded alternator or drop my gas tank and recoat without this forum among other things. So bare with me. But it would be nice to have a spreadsheet or something similar (not sure if everyone has excel) that list each part, a description/function for each part, location and photo of each part (earlier post would probably work fine,), a column of symptoms that part is bad or needs adjustment based on everyone's experience, add a column with tests etc that can be performed to check each part, and finally the location in the FSM that spells out some of this information. Maybe this is to much work for someone or several people to do but for someone like me diagnosis is the hardest part.

    One last note, you guys read the FSM and it makes since. Sometimes when I read the thing it looks like Chinese. I know that some of this only comes with experience but every little bit of clarification helps.

    Again, thanks to all. You guys are amazing. I hope to be able to help others soon.

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    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhermes View Post
    One last note, you guys read the FSM and it makes since. Sometimes when I read the thing it looks like Chinese. I know that some of this only comes with experience but every little bit of clarification helps.
    That is probably because most of it has been translated from a japanese manual and most probably by someone with english not being their native language.
    Some sections have sentences that throw you of a bit. Takes a bit of getting use to, but you will get the hang of it.
    Chas
    Last edited by EuroDat; 04-01-2013 at 02:26 PM.
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's kinda like the Chinese picture-instructions for assembling furniture. You can be sure if you're supposed to insert a screw into Hole A, or screw-up Hole A...
    Drive Responsibly.
    enjoy classic Rock music.

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