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Thread: Check out this "71 240Z"

  1. #1
    Yellow Z-Car Club DougN's Avatar
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    Default Check out this "71 240Z"

    Came upon the below auction, and since it is not too far away, looked a little closer. Something seemed a bit odd about the car, what do you think?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...TQ:MOTORS:1123

    Listed as a '71 240Z with HLS30 29519, yet something seems a bit odd. I emailed the seller and asked about the discrepancies and was basically told to F-off:

    (photos provided for posterity):
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    Doug

    '73 240Z (HLS30-126840)(10/72) Yellow (64XXX original miles)
    '66 MGB (GHN3L108501)(12/14/66) BRG
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    Registered User IBZINYA's Avatar
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    Not sure I see the "discrepencies" that you are seeing. It looks as though the car is complete and the production tag does not appear to have been tampered with. The current price is in my opinion not a bad purchase as well... $2100.00 will not buy you much more car than that these days. I think he's probably being honest with what he has and could make for a good Z to a new home.

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    The pics are fuzzy, but doesn't it have a whole lot of 280Z parts on it? The dash, console, door panels, hood, hatch, tail light panel, etc. are from a 280. I can't see the front turn signals in any of the pics, but they might be from a 280 as well. Also, unless the camera is playing tricks, there is something going on with the stripes. They look very crooked from the back.

    The engine bay VIN and inspection lamps are located in 240Z position, but it looks like there are 280 parts there as well. Did the '71 have a vacuum canister there? What about the radiator support to fender ducts? Are they on the '71s?
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
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    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Looks like a 260Z with the door tag from a '71 240Z to me. I'd want to see the other VIN locations prior to bidding. Could be a nightmare to title or register outside of Georgia. In Oregon, for example, to title a car from out of state, the car must be inspected by the DMV in person and all known VIN locations must match. I suspect other states may be similar.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Ahh yes, I didn't think about the 260. That makes sense Arne.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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    Registered User mgood's Avatar
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    Look where the door closure is, the type, It look like mine and I have a 280. Also the dash looks like a 280. Looks like 2 pictures are not from the same time period, the car in the garage from 11/01/2007 and the Vin tag from 11/24/08 all the others are from 11/22/08. Why the different picture times.
    Michael 11/75 - 76-280 - HLS30-281,114
    Web site -Click Here and ORIGINAL OWNERS OF THE 280Z (1975-1976 -1977 - 1978 - ONLY) REGISTRATION[

  7. #7
    Yellow Z-Car Club DougN's Avatar
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    Looks like someone bought this '71 280Z I thought the same thing, and either a) someone took the VIN tags from a '71 240Z and stuck them on this 280Z, or b) someone stuck a whole bunch of 280Z parts on this '71 240Z shell. Most likely (a) in my opinion. I did ask the seller for a photo of the etched serial number on the firewall (I believe 280Z's have this as well?) to see if it matched the VIN tags. He ignored the request.

    I'm not an attorney, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but it would seem that selling the car if it is (a) is illegal?
    Doug

    '73 240Z (HLS30-126840)(10/72) Yellow (64XXX original miles)
    '66 MGB (GHN3L108501)(12/14/66) BRG
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  8. #8
    early 260z RLS30 030417 mars23z's Avatar
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    I agree that car looks like a 260z, but im not an expert. Those bumpers and the tail lights just look more like those from a 260z. Could it be a later year 240 like a 73?

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    After doing a little surfing on Cardomain, I agree with Arne. The '71 240Z is actually an early '74 260Z. Everything I originally thought looked like 280Z parts are really 260Z parts. The inspection lamp, VIN tag, vacuum reservoir, radiator, dash, door panels, tail lights, etc. all fit 260Z designs. I would say that there was some VIN swapping going on. I wonder what he did about the stamped firewall VIN?

    Here is a random 260Z I found on cardomain. Look at the picks and compare them to the "240Z on Ebay" http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1932829
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
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    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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  10. #10
    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mars23z View Post
    Those bumpers and the tail lights just look more like those from a 260z. Could it be a later year 240 like a 73?
    Only if the tail lights were swapped from a later car. All 240z's have the integrated white backup lights. All US 260 and 280z's have the separate white backup light closer to the license plate. Swapping out the rear panel is a whole lot more work than swapping the VIN tag which is what I suspect happened here.
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

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    Registered User blue 72's Avatar
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    Problem is that someone will buy it not knowing much about Z's only to later find out that the previous owner was creative and happened to own a rivet gun.
    '72 240Z - F54, P79, '78 5 Speed, 3.9 R200

  12. #12
    Z Pilot BRE-240Z's Avatar
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    I emailed the seller, last week, right after the auction was first posted -- and told him that I thought that the car was a 260Z. I asked him if the VIN that's stamped on the firewall matched the door plate, and was told that the seller was 'not an expert' and that he apparently wasn't interested in identifying it further.

    My guess....it's an early 260Z with VIN plates from a 240Z.
    .


    1971 Datsun 240Z
    HLS30-30806
    Asheville, North Carolina
    IZCC #14802



  13. #13
    Go Fast, Don't Crash 280~Master's Avatar
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    I know for a fact here in GA you don't need a tile for a car this old nor do you need it inspected, all you need is a bill of sale and you can register the car.
    When I bought my 76 280Z I took the title to change it over and was told its an antique and did not need all of that.
    The great news about this, you might ask.
    I got a great antique tag for the Z free of charge.
    So any type of Vin change would be very easy in GA..

    Also looking at the plate, it looks like he has the antique tag on it.

    From GA DMV Website.
    Antique Plates
    To qualify for these tags, your vehicle must be over 25 years old. Or, your vehicle must be designed and manufactured to replicate an antique vehicle.
    So he made the 260 look somewhat like a 240 and told the DMV it was a 240.

    The registration fee is $20, and there isn't a special tag fee. You may transfer the tags to another antique vehicle in your possession.

    If you wish to display the Georgia plate coinciding with the vehicle's model year, you'll have to complete an affidavit, and the vehicle must be from 1970 or earlier. Take the form to a county tag agent office, where a visual inspection on the vehicle must be completed.

    Remember to keep the current tags in the vehicle at all times, along with the affidavit.
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    Last edited by 280~Master; 12-02-2008 at 03:37 PM.
    John Thomas Bertrand
    Model: HLS30 STD CPE 2DR
    Color: 305 LIGHT BLUE
    Serial: HLS30-298085
    Engine: L28-081399
    Port of Entry: 34 JACKSONVILLE
    Method of Transport: TRUCK
    Dealer to whom delivered:
    Brown Datsun INC
    213 E Liberty ST
    Lyons, GA 30436


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    Administrator bpilati's Avatar
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    I know the front bumper, hood and side view mirror are all wrong for a 71; among other things.
    Last edited by bpilati; 12-02-2008 at 04:33 PM.
    Bryan Pilati
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    Registered User lonetreesteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue 72 View Post
    Problem is that someone will buy it not knowing much about Z's only to later find out that the previous owner was creative and happened to own a rivet gun.
    Well, that someone paid $3,550.00 for a 240Z 'Clone' and a very poor attempt of one at that. This is outright fraud and I feel for the uninformed buyer. You see this happen with the old Pontiac LeMans and Tempest cars from time to time that are passed off as GTOs. Or the base Chevelles that are passed of as Chevelle SS's. Now granted, most of the owners of these cars will come out and say that it's a clone and it will still have the original LeMans ID tags, etc. But this guy did such a bad job, I'm surprised it went for $3,550.00.
    Last edited by lonetreesteve; 12-02-2008 at 08:20 PM.
    Steve

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    The problem is that there is no real benefit to cloning a 240Z using a 260Z. My guess is that the 260Z was a stolen car and a junkyard 240Z VIN was used to launder it.

    Turning a Tempest or LeMans into a GTO makes sense in some ways, but dialing a Z back three years is a bit more sinister sounding to me. He only swapped the VIN, he didn't try to clone anything. I am not accusing the Ebay seller of anything, but SOMEBODY broke the law.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
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    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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  17. #17
    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    Well, with any luck, the seller will get bent when the buyer tries to register it-or has it worked on. Possibly the buyer will join the club, find the thread and head right back to the seller with the law-since several of us let the seller know he had a major VIN issue that could and most likely would bite him in the butt.
    I would say the seller bit, found the vin problem and is selling before getting stuck with the issue-hoping it won't come back to him-if it was my 3550-you can bet I'd be bringing the police back to his door.. thrashershop...I just hope the buyer knows to get good documentation, and pays with something requiring ID to cash.
    Will

    ps just for later searching
    Ebay auction # 300275847579
    Seller trashershop
    1971 DATSUN 240 Z. COLOR IS RED WITH BLACK INTERIOR. RUNS GOOD BUT NEEDS CARB WORK. I ORIGINALLY PURCHASED THE CAR TO RESTORE BUT NOW HAVE DECIDED TO GO IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. TRUTH BE TOLD I THINK A BIT OFF MORE THAN I CAN CHEW. LOOKING TO SELL THIS CAR TO PUT TOWARD THE PURCHASE OF ANOTHER CAR OR WOULD CONSIDER A TRADE FOR A JEEP WRANGLER IN EQUAL STATE OF REPAIR.
    Last edited by hls30.com; 12-02-2008 at 09:11 PM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    The problem is that there is no real benefit to cloning a 240Z using a 260Z.
    I can think of several possible reasons. Smog exemptions for the older car, or qualifying for the Antique registration which is generally very low-cost in most states. So it might not be as "sinister" as it first looks. The 260Z donor may not be stolen, maybe the real 240Z was rusted, and got scrapped as a "260Z".

    Doesn't make it right, though. I too feel for the buyer, it's bound to come up at some point.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Is there any way to find the buyer or notify Ebay? We KNOW this isn't a '71 240Z, so whether the seller knows it or not, he sold a car that was not as advertised.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    I can think of several possible reasons. Smog exemptions for the older car, or qualifying for the Antique registration which is generally very low-cost in most states.
    Really? Even the 260Z is now 35 years old. Is there a difference between 35 and 39 years old? I thought most states consider a car an antique after 25 years.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

  21. #21
    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    I can think of several possible reasons. Smog exemptions for the older car, or qualifying for the Antique registration which is generally very low-cost in most states.
    Here in Georgia the car has to be 25 years old to get an antique plate so next year even a 1984 300ZX will qualify. The specialty plate costs an extra $20. Emissions testing is only required in 13 counties surrounding the Atlanta metro area and once again cars older than 25 years are exempt.

    If this fraud was perpetrated for either of the above reasons it wasn't done recently because a 1974 260Z would have met both requirements in 1999.
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    Really? Even the 260Z is now 35 years old. Is there a difference between 35 and 39 years old? I thought most states consider a car an antique after 25 years.
    Depends on the state. Here in Oregon, 25 years qualifies as "Special Interest", and "Antique" requires more, I think 50 years. But it varies wildly from state to state.

    Same with smog testing - I think the cutoff in California for that is 1975 model year. Other states may be considerably different.

    Not saying any of this may have been the motivation for the deception, but it is possible. It's also possible that the seller MIGHT not have known that it was a 260Z either. The VIN-swapper may be farther removed than that.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    I'm purely speculating here, but the seller might have bought the car and once he tried to buy parts for it, figured out that he had been duped. At that point, he put it on Ebay and claimed that he "bit off more than he could chew". When asked by members here about the VIN, he got defensive and blew them off. I think he KNEW the car wasn't legit, but he was just trying to erase his own mistake by screwing someone else.

    If this is the case, it doesn't matter if he did it himself or bought it that way. It was his responsibility to keep the car from going back into the system.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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  24. #24
    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    Some states designate Vintage, Antique or Classic tags by year of manufacture and not it's age.

    There are many plausible innocent scenarios that can happen and fit all the evidence presented.

    That said, the pictures presented elicit questions and require explanation in order to safely consider or condone the sale. But pictures can also lie. I've seen pictures of "rust-free" cars ... that weren't. Conversely, I've seen cars that didn't look so good turn out to be gems.

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  25. #25
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    It would be quite difficult to try and title/register this particular vehicle in many other states. Whoever paid their $3550 is probably uninformed of any of these factors.

    Not all states are so lax with their smog laws. I lived in Arizona for a while, up until earlier this year, and went through the registration process there with my Z. Anything built after 1966 and registered in Maricopa and Pima counties must be smogged. Historic vehicle plates are given to any who carry collector vehicle insurance on the car, and are thus exempt to emissions testing as well.
    Last edited by blue 72; 12-03-2008 at 08:26 AM.
    '72 240Z - F54, P79, '78 5 Speed, 3.9 R200

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    Yellow Z-Car Club DougN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    Is there any way to find the buyer or notify Ebay? We KNOW this isn't a '71 240Z, so whether the seller knows it or not, he sold a car that was not as advertised.
    If you click on the auction, then on the "1" feedback the seller just got from the person who bought the Z, you can get to the real ID of the buyer. You can them click on the buyers ID, and it will bring up their profile. You can then use the "Contact member" link on the left side to send them an email.

    I don't know if eBay will care if the car is legit or not - but it might be worth contacting them?
    Doug

    '73 240Z (HLS30-126840)(10/72) Yellow (64XXX original miles)
    '66 MGB (GHN3L108501)(12/14/66) BRG
    '10 BMW E93 Silver

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    I sent him a message

    Hello, My name is Mike and I belong to a message forum called classiczcars.com. I am contacting you about the recent purchase of the car advertised as a 1971 240Z. There seems to be some discrepancies about the model and year and wanted to direct you to a thread on the forum. Several respected long time member are concerned that is is not a 71 240 but in fact a 260z with mismatching VINS. This is not spam and it is not intended to scare you but I want to make sure you are informed.

    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=32671

    My username on the board is gotswap.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Last edited by gotswap; 12-03-2008 at 08:21 AM.

  28. #28
    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Perfect wording. Thanks Mike. Hopefully, the buyer takes a look and can take action if warranted. With any luck, everything will work out for the buyer.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

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    Registered User gotswap's Avatar
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    Got a response, looks like we were too late.

    "thanks Mike and i think that you are correct
    i wish i had known this before paying , i found out that a distributor cap for a 70 -74 wouldnt fit thanks"

  30. #30
    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Dang. At this point I'm curious if the VIN tags even match. He really should try to contact the seller and see what's up. If the car was stolen, then he will be screwed.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

  31. #31
    Registered User biddljj's Avatar
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    CZCC-11405
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    Nobody mentioned the idea that the Seats are not original either.

    Not just a Z - zdisease

  32. #32
    Registered User Zealous's Avatar
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    CZCC-16672
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    Just wondering is there anywhere on this site where we keep a list of "bad" ebay sellers to advise caution to new people such as myself? I did a quick search but didn't find anything...

    Cheers
    JC
    Cheers

    JC

    Current Project: 1971 Datsun 240z Series I - HLS30-14842
    Current drivers:
    1972 Datsun 240z - HLS30-69726
    2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R
    2010 Mazdaspeed3

  33. #33
    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    search "bad ebayer list", and you will get the largest(mostly about one problem child...), but it has links to another one or two.
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

  34. #34
    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    CZCC-4106
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    If I had purchased the car, I would get some law enforcement involved-the proof the seller was aware that there could, and probably was, a problem is clearly documented here and in ebays internal messaging system-before the auction ended. The buyer could get his money back and the seller would have to deal with the situation he was aware of and chose to ignore.
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

  35. #35
    Biafra for President e_racer1999's Avatar
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    I doubt that this eBay ID will remain valid for long; doesn't seem like a long time eBayer.

    But still, I certainly hope that eBay is informed
    Jason King
    6/72 240Z / HLS30 89646 (Yellow)
    1996 Infiniti I30 *I finally have all Nissans again!*
    1971 510 4door (wife's car)
    IZCC Member #14186

    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

  36. #36
    Registered User jtl260z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougN View Post
    Came upon the below auction, and since it is not too far away, looked a little closer. Something seemed a bit odd about the car, what do you think?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...TQ:MOTORS:1123

    Listed as a '71 240Z with HLS30 29519, yet something seems a bit odd. I emailed the seller and asked about the discrepancies and was basically told to F-off:

    (photos provided for posterity):
    That's not a 240z...The tail lights and the center console are a dead give away. It could be a 260 with a 280 hood, or maybe a 280 with skinny bumpers. Who knows? No front marker lights to further prove the model.
    Jason

  37. #37
    Registered User jtl260z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgood View Post
    Look where the door closure is, the type, It look like mine and I have a 280. Also the dash looks like a 280. Looks like 2 pictures are not from the same time period, the car in the garage from 11/01/2007 and the Vin tag from 11/24/08 all the others are from 11/22/08. Why the different picture times.
    Good call on the door striker. Definitely a 260Z.
    Jason

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