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Thread: HLS30-00400 on CL

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    Laidback Purist moonpup's Avatar
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    Default HLS30-00400 on CL

    Another 69 car up for grabs.

    "I am posting this for a friend. He has a 1970 Datsun 240Z. Mint condition. No rust to speak of. The only place where it is at all tender is the floor pan around the seat mounts. The engine bay and part of the underbody was greased, lathered in the stuff, years ago. This being the case, the paint is absolutely perfect underneath it. It is a 4 speed manual tranny. The build date is 11/69. The serial number for this car is HLS30-00400. There are only 86747 miles on the odometer, and with the condition, I can safely say that there is no 1 before those numbers. The car sat in a barn for the last 15 years and as such, the motor is currently stuck. Mystery Oil has been sitting in all 6 cylinders for over a month, but we just havent had time to try to turn the crank by hand. We did get the carbs unstuck and freed up nicely. The car is in great condition, it just needs a good home and someone who can impart loads of time cleaning it up. This is a piece of Nissan history that is worth saving. If you are interested, please reply to this post (I will contact my buddy with your info) and put '69 240Z Datsun' in the subject. If that is not there, I will not even bother reading it."

    http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/1795823768.html
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    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
    1975 280 Zzzap
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    Registered User deadflo's Avatar
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    Like to see the interior...
    If you go to the Craigs Listing the pics are a lot larger.
    I wonder why the bumpers are so black? Dirt?
    The gas filler door doesn't have the chrome knob?
    Also would the air filter housing on such an early car have that long intake? Weren't the first one real short?

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    I think the bumpers have been painted black. You are right about the fuel door. It should have a chrome knob. The air filter housing looks correct. I have #333 and its the same. I am curious about the paint. I don't think it was originally red. Correct me if I am wrong but mine was green with butterscotch. I know they did batches of cars all the same color so I would think that many of the cars around this vintage would be green also. I didn't think they used red until later. It still could be a great buy. There was rust under the battery tray in one of the pictures. Hopefully the engine wont be too much trouble.


    carl
    HLS30 00333
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    Registered User deadflo's Avatar
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    I don't doubt that this car could have been red it was one of the original colors.
    I haven't heard about the cars being painted in batches according to their serial numbers, plus as you know the cars may not really be sequential in actual production, in connection with the numbers they were assigned.
    You can see that in Carl Becks Z car serial archive.
    I know that the dark BRG cars had both butterscotch and black interiors.

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    Mike B
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    I don't see anything in the pictures that leads me to believe it wasn't originally red. Red cars were produced from the beginning. There was a red car shown in the first brochures and the service manual. I think it may have been HLS30-00003? There are many red cars before HLS30-00400 listed in Carl's public registry info on zhome.com. Many of the early cars were built in batches of two or three of the same color, but as deadflo noted, there was some mixing of the VINs too, so I don't think you can read too much into that.

    I would hardly call this car "mint condition" though, as the ad describes it.

    -Mike

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    I know for a fact that HLS3000488 was red. I thought it was 110 but Mike B reminded me that it had to be 905 since 110 came later. You know, my advancing CRS......
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup View Post
    There are only 86747 miles on the odometer, and with the condition, I can safely say that there is no 1 before those numbers.
    It must look a lot better in person than in the pictures because in the pictures I don't see anything that would preclude a 1, 2, or even 3 before those numbers.

    That's not necessarily a bad thing. Generally speaking a low mileage used car is better than one with high mileage simply because of reliability and wear and tear. With a 40 year old car I don't think it matters so much. I'd rather have a high mileage car in great condition than a low mileage car that's been rusting away somewhere. My car had 41,000 miles on the odometer it when I bought it in 1985 but a previous title from a few years earlier showed 14,000 miles. From that I have to assume that it had rolled over at least once. 25 years later and it only has 189,000 and most if that was before 1990.
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    I thought I had read somewhere that they had a color available and painted a number of cars that color and then moved on to the next batch. Something like the first cars to come over were all the same color and that the first ones sold didn't come with a color choice. You took what came off the boat. I could be completely wrong. Does it seem weird that they smothered the car in grease? It may make sense but to me its not the first thing I would think to do.


    carl
    HLS30 00333
    1970 240z

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    Registered User Gary in NJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbudvet View Post
    Does it seem weird that they smothered the car in grease?
    The paint under the grease looks better then the paint on the car. For $6,500 this car looks like in may be in need of a lot of attention.
    Gary
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    Previous Owner of a 10/70 240Z ('83-'85)

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    The red car in the first 240Z brochure was HLS30-00007. The green one is HLS30-00006 and the silver one is HLS30-00008. Thanks to Carl Beck for this.

    By the way 00006 AND 00008 AND 00013 are all going to be on display at ZCCR's All Japanese Car Show on July 10, look at the events calendar.



    #400 was/is red, look at the engine bay tag THROUGH the grease. Lotta money for a siezed up car that was driven hard and put away wet. Buyer is buying the VIN and a huge restoration tab.

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    Mike B
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    Quote Originally Posted by zcar70 View Post
    The red car in the first 240Z brochure was HLS30-00007.
    I think the attached brochure was the first in the US. It has a 1969 production date and shows a very early car without emblems, no radio or clock, etc. I think this is the same car used in the service manual and may be HLS30-00003. I think HLS30-00007 was also red and was used in the 1970 brochure you are referring to.

    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    It must look a lot better in person than in the pictures because in the pictures I don't see anything that would preclude a 1, 2, or even 3 before those numbers.

    That's not necessarily a bad thing. Generally speaking a low mileage used car is better than one with high mileage simply because of reliability and wear and tear. With a 40 year old car I don't think it matters so much. I'd rather have a high mileage car in great condition than a low mileage car that's been rusting away somewhere. My car had 41,000 miles on the odometer it when I bought it in 1985 but a previous title from a few years earlier showed 14,000 miles. From that I have to assume that it had rolled over at least once. 25 years later and it only has 189,000 and most if that was before 1990.
    Just wanted to go on record that the "text" you are responding to was part of the ad's wording by the person that listed it and has nothing to do with me.
    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
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    My opinion of the body is that it was hit hard on the passenger side at some point before it was parked. Very drastic difference in the paint oxidation between the door and the rear quarter. I would take a good look at the frame and weld areas.

    If all checks out I would pay no more than 3 grand for it. You have probably got at least 15 grand in repairs and paint there.

    John

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    I agree, $6,500.00 is too much for this car. It's a real gamble at that price with all the work that needs to be done and particularly if If the original matching engine is beyond repair and cannot be rebuilt, the value drops significantly.
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    Steve

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    I guess it depends on how badly you want a low VIN, and how much of the low-VIN stuff is still there. But for anyone not as concerned about that, it seems pretty dear for the condition. I didn't pay much more than his asking price for my red car. Not low-VIN, but the condition was much better. I'v got some of the pre-purchase pictures on my web site - http://1971.240z.home.comcast.net/~1...d-gallery.html
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    I agree. That car has been hit and it may not track properly. But that's not necessarily something that can't be fixed on frame machines available today. Yes, restoration is a big ticket hobby. I was looking at a collection of old Healeys the other day and marveling at the value of those old beasts. There seems to be quite the disparity in price between them and 240Zs.
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    Registered User zcar70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    I think the attached brochure was the first in the US. It has a 1969 production date and shows a very early car without emblems, no radio or clock, etc. I think this is the same car used in the service manual and may be HLS30-00003. I think HLS30-00007 was also red and was used in the 1970 brochure you are referring to.

    -Mike
    You are correct Mike. I was referring to the 240z trifold brochure with the "flying" 240z logo on the front.

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    Administrator bpilati's Avatar
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    Looks like the back windows doesn't have the defogger wires either.
    Bryan Pilati
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpilati View Post
    Looks like the back windows doesn't have the defogger wires either.
    It shouldn't. 00488 didn't have them. I've always heard that no sub 500 vin had them.
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    I might check it out, but I don't need 4 z's. It looks like the front and side of the car was repainted red. On the front on shot, the wires are painted in the front, they paint the car first then wire it. If it was hit, when they repaired it they probably did the bumpers black and the respray. I'll see if I can find the car, I'm having relay problems with craigslist. I'm in NH.
    Last edited by Chris280Z; 06-19-2010 at 06:30 AM.

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    Registered User deadflo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    I think the attached brochure was the first in the US. It has a 1969 production date and shows a very early car without emblems, no radio or clock, etc. I think this is the same car used in the service manual and may be HLS30-00003. I think HLS30-00007 was also red and was used in the 1970 brochure you are referring to.

    -Mike
    That brochure is pretty interesting. 175 HP??? Quarter mile times of 15.8??? Whats that all about?

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    Registered User deadflo's Avatar
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    Oh I just realized they show triple solex on the car in the brochure. Wonder if they intended to sell em that way in USA in 1970?

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    They were selling the 2000 Roadster with the cam and solexes in the USA then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    I think the attached brochure was the first in the US. It has a 1969 production date and shows a very early car without emblems, no radio or clock, etc.

    -Mike
    Got to be HLS30-00003. Note that the emblems on the brochure are airbrushed on, and poorly at that! Ahh, 1969 graphics technology!


    Wouldn't it be great to fill in the blanks and find out what ever happened to HLS30-00001,2,3,4,5 and 9-12???

    SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE must know!

    Last edited by zcar70; 06-21-2010 at 10:36 AM.

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    Sblake,
    My car came with rear defroster wires in the rear window. At least it came to me with them. I don't know how it came from the factory.
    The probable damage to the passenger side might also explain the fuel door being wrong.

    carl
    HLS30 00333
    1970 240z

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    Registered User deadflo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01 View Post
    They were selling the 2000 Roadster with the cam and solexes in the USA then.
    So does this mean they intended to sell the Z with triples originally? I know later in 1970, there was a write up in Road and Track from Jack Yamaguchi about possibly introducing the triple Solex as an option.

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    Not sure. I know the roadster had the option. I actually saw them in the showroon but I have no clue about Nissan's intent for the S30.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadflo View Post
    So does this mean they intended to sell the Z with triples originally? I know later in 1970, there was a write up in Road and Track from Jack Yamaguchi about possibly introducing the triple Solex as an option.
    It has been my understanding that the triple Mikunis were originally considered as part of a possible Sport package option. Getting them past emissions testing in time may have been the hang up at first, and once they got rolling and the waiting lists kept growing there was obviously no incentive to certify them.

    Just my thoughts - no idea how correct (or not) I may be.
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    Couple of comments having nothing to do with HLS30-00400 - sorry.

    Mike's brochure was printed in Japan and is Japanese Nissan marketing material. Although it is interesting as a pre-description of the car that was about to be introduced, it is by no means what was actually exported to the U.S. I don't know how anyone could argue that the triple solexes were, at one point, a consideration. There's the proof. In terms of the clear hatch glass, radio and clock blank; those were configurations for the S30-S model. I have considered the model configuration of the HLS30U very close to the S30-S specification. A good point for the argument is the presence of the rubber floor matts in the early cars. Imported without carpeting, the early cars were all fitted by Datsun USA prior to distribution.

    The tri-fold brochure is, to the best of my knowledge, U.S. printed literature and probably not done until after January 1970. The man and the woman driving the red car are the same as a postcard I have from Parker Advertising, Inc., photographer Jason Hailey. Notice how the models have turtleneck shirts on. That picture was taken in Winter. No way the red car in the tri-fold is 00007. Kats made a point in another thread about the red car. Same conclusion.

    What happened to 00004 and 00005? We think (with substantial evidence) that they were the North American Test cars. Shipped back to Japan and disposed.
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Lonny,

    This is the archade style postcard I have.

    Chris
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    Thanks Chris, same one I have. Hopefully with my contacts more Parker advertising will be found.

    Bonzi Lon
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbudvet View Post
    Sblake,
    My car came with rear defroster wires in the rear window. At least it came to me with them. I don't know how it came from the factory.
    The probable damage to the passenger side might also explain the fuel door being wrong.

    carl
    Carl, are you the original owner of your 333 car? I ask because the earliest
    240 I have ever seen (over a 40-year period) with a vertical defroster is
    #965, 1/70, owned by Joe and Dottie Novak.

    I'm thinking a PO might have replaced the clear original at some point in time
    due to vandalism or other breakage, or simply because he/she didn't like
    being without the rear defogger and was willing to pay to get one!

    All Z Best,.................................Kathy & Rick
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    Don't get nervous, guys, I'm just playing catch-up after a few days.

    Moonpup (re. post #1), I wouldn't have a problem with the odo reading
    86747. On a 40-year-old car it could be that, or have a 1, 2, or even 3
    in front of it by this time if there were enough places. If the car looks
    like it could still be on its first time around, I could accept that. After
    all, our #171 car has 28700 miles. And I know that for a documented
    fact because we bought her in Aug 73 from the original owner (whom we
    knew) with 26000 miles on her at the time (the car, not the PO)!

    Deadflo (re. post #2), that looks like a good early air cleaner box to me.
    I don't know of any variances in the lengths of the snouts, but all your
    Series 1 came without a carburetor preheater "valve", hence no control
    on top of the snorkel to regulate the preheater function.

    cbudvet (re. post #3), looking at my records, it doesn't seem like Datsun
    ran a bunch of cars of one color, then another bunch of another color.
    Though that would seem to be the logical thing to do: hit as many as
    you can while you have that color in the sprayer! The only things I can
    think of are 1) several booths are in operation at the same time with a
    different color in each, 2) several sprayers are prepared with product and
    a different one is used on each successive vehicle, or 3)there is indeed
    one color at a time but the cars don't run through in anywhere near
    perfect VIN-number sequence. #13 is gold, #16 was green, #19 is silver.
    Chris' #26 and 27 are both green, while Mike B's #32 is blue. I would say
    they could have been trying to get a variety onto the first boat out, but
    then, as another example, #210 is white, #215 is silver, #216 is white,
    #231 is red, #237 is silver. Other than Chris' cars, I don't see any other
    back-to-back numbers of the same color, though there could be some.

    BTW the brochure notwithstanding, the 231 car is the earliest I have re-
    corded in red, which leads me to believe that the actual release of the
    905 red was a little later. This fits with #400 being originally red, just as
    Stephen's #488 and John and Bev Bianchi's #450 were. Likewise with
    the 918 orange, I know of none earlier than #741.

    More to follow; got to go check to make sure Kathy is OK.

    All Z Best,...................Rick (and Kathy, of course)
    1969 Z.CAR (#00013 10/69) since 8/30/76
    1969 ITSA.Z (#00171 11/69) since 8/24/73 28K mi
    1970 (#01905 2/70) since 1/24/11
    1970 (#06289 6/70) original owner
    1971 (#19851 1/71) sold
    1975 280Z (#01343 1/75) mint original
    1971 PL-510 2dr (our 160Z) since 12/31/75
    1969 1600 Rdstr (another 160-Z) since 10/3/10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick View Post
    Don't get nervous, guys, I'm just playing catch-up after a few days.

    Moonpup (re. post #1), I wouldn't have a problem with the odo reading
    86747. On a 40-year-old car it could be that, or have a 1, 2, or even 3
    in front of it by this time if there were enough places. If the car looks
    like it could still be on its first time around, I could accept that. After
    all, our #171 car has 28700 miles. And I know that for a documented
    fact because we bought her in Aug 73 from the original owner (whom we
    knew) with 26000 miles on her at the time (the car, not the PO)! ....snip....
    Please read post #12

    Once again, let me try to clarify.... in post #1, I posted a link to a craigslist ad and copied the text from the person who placed the ad along with some of the pics from said ad.

    The only verbage from me was "Another 69 car up for grabs." PERIOD!!!
    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
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    1977 280 ZXR



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick View Post
    cbudvet (re. post #3), looking at my records, it doesn't seem like Datsun ran a bunch of cars of one color, then another bunch of another color. Though that would seem to be the logical thing to do: hit as many as you can while you have that color in the sprayer! The only things I can think of are 1) several booths are in operation at the same time with a different color in each, 2) several sprayers are prepared with product and a different one is used on each successive vehicle, or 3)there is indeed one color at a time but the cars don't run through in anywhere near
    perfect VIN-number sequence. #13 is gold, #16 was green, #19 is silver.
    Chris' #26 and 27 are both green, while Mike B's #32 is blue. I would say
    they could have been trying to get a variety onto the first boat out, but
    then, as another example, #210 is white, #215 is silver, #216 is white,
    #231 is red, #237 is silver. Other than Chris' cars, I don't see any other
    back-to-back numbers of the same color, though there could be some.

    BTW the brochure notwithstanding, the 231 car is the earliest I have re-
    corded in red, which leads me to believe that the actual release of the
    905 red was a little later. This fits with #400 being originally red, just as
    Stephen's #488 and John and Bev Bianchi's #450 were. Likewise with
    the 918 orange, I know of none earlier than #741.
    Howdy Rick,

    I have an interest in the color combinations used on the early cars too. I have a small amount of data that I have compiled from the public registry lists, ebay auctions, cars I have seen, etc. There were actually quite a few of the early HLS30 cars that seem to have been produced in color batches of two, three, or more (at least based on their VINs). Here is a quick list, I'm sure Carl Beck has better data.
    North American test cars (#4?, #5?) - Silver
    #13, #16 - Gold
    #17, #19, #20 - Silver
    #26, #27 - Green
    #32, #33 - Blue
    #40, #42 - Gold
    #51, #52 - Green
    #57, #59 - Red
    #94, #95 - Green
    #237, #238 - Silver
    #331, #332, #333 - Green

    Here are some of the early HLS30 red cars that I am aware of before #231. I am sure there are others.
    #36, #57, #59, #87

    -Mike
    Last edited by Mike B; 06-21-2010 at 09:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick View Post
    looking at my records, it doesn't seem like Datsun
    ran a bunch of cars of one color......then, as another example, #210 is white, #215 is silver, #216 is white,
    #231 is red, #237 is silver.
    Hi Rick, consider this theory. I doubt that you would have found any consecutive chassis numbers being run down the production line. It just isn't that cut & dried. They were more than likely shuffled and reshuffled many times for a variety of reasons, even before construction had begun. It is even possible that the chassis numbers (VINs) were assigned as the orders from the various markets came in. There certainly would be no need and it would not even be logistically possible to maintain a consecutive build format. All the cars would have been painted in the same booth and run down the same paint line. During that time period, paint was pumped and filtered from 55 gallon drums and run through paint lines to the spray booth. Pressure feed guns were common place and unnecessary color changes were kept to a minimum in order to save on solvents needed to flush the lines and guns. Prior to reaching the paint booth the cars were banked on accumulator lines and more than likely according to color. So, you see it is possible to paint cars in batches of the same color but not consecutively.
    I'm not saying this is how Nissan did it but it was the industry method of operation during this era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick View Post
    .....looking at my records, it doesn't seem like Datsun ran a bunch of cars of one color, then another bunch of another color.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick
    .... I would say they could have been trying to get a variety onto the first boat out, but then, as another example, #210 is white, #215 is silver, #216 is white, #231 is red, #237 is silver. Other than Chris' cars, I don't see any other back-to-back numbers of the same color, though there could be some.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick
    BTW the brochure notwithstanding, the 231 car is the earliest I have re-corded in red, which leads me to believe that the actual release of the 905 red was a little later. This fits with #400 being originally red, just as Stephen's #488 and John and Bev Bianchi's #450 were. Likewise with the 918 orange, I know of none earlier than #741.
    As in so many of your posts, you seem to completely forget ( or just disregard? ) the fact that variants of S30-series Z other than HLS30s destined for the north American market were being made in Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant ( 'Datsun' never made anything, because it was just a badge ) in 1969.

    Surely it isn't that difficult for you to imagine Japanese market cars coming through the production system at the same time as your "American" cars? In the 1969 production year over 950 Japanese market cars came down the lines at the Hiratsuka plant. If any of us had been there, I think we couldn't have failed to notice them...

    I'm sure that Nissan would indeed have made an effort to get a nice variety of colours onto that "first boat out", but they would have been making equal efforts for the cars that didn't need to go on any boat. As colours were painted in batches, it stands to reason that they would not have needed to be divided by market or variant, just as long as the colour was appropriate.

    In the cases of 905 Red and 918 Orange, they were both offered as colours available from the beginning of production on Japanese home market models - so the colours did exist on early production S30-series Zs. In fact, 918 Orange was seen on the Nissan stand at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show. There doesn't seem to be any reason to suggest that they couldn't have been used on 'HLS30'-prefixed cars right from the beginning of production.

    I know I've mentioned this to you before ( so I'm probably wasting my time ) but, in discussions of matters historical, your use of "#13", "#210" and "#215" as shorthand is all but meaningless. Those numbers mean almost nothing without their 'Katashiki' prefixes.

    Perhaps you could add some of the above to your "records"?


    Alan T.

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    Alan, the purpose of this board is for discussion, which it does a great job of generating. Opinions and facts are solicited to allow the reader to come to his own conclusions.

    It seems that you use this forum as a venue to be critical, condescending and just plain rude. We know you are in Europe. We know you advocate the history of Zs OTHER than North American cars. No need to be so damn nasty. Please shelve the attitude and contribute to the discussions or just go away.

    Enough already.

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    Sorry, zcar70, but in this case (as in many others) I have to agree with Alan. Rick seems to post alot of information based on his own recolletcions and logic. Sometimes I think he does it just to see the reaction. That's my opinion. Am I being nasty for voicing it? If so then you need to take down the first paragraph in you post.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by zcar70 View Post
    Enough already.
    While I find the tone abrasive, the information is quite interesting.

    I agree, no need to slight other members. I too am guilty of being "US-Centric" and enjoy being reminded that the Z's were a world-wide platform for Nissan.
    Gary
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    Stop reading the 'tone' and simply read the information. The only reason I said what I said about Rick is that he's the one that was quoted. If he can post what he posts then Alan or anyone else should be able to react to it. This section is 'Open Zcar Discussion', right? The tone is really hard to discern in the written word anyway........
    Last edited by sblake01; 06-22-2010 at 06:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zcar70 View Post
    It seems that you use this forum as a venue to be critical, condescending and just plain rude. We know you are in Europe. We know you advocate the history of Zs OTHER than North American cars. No need to be so damn nasty. Please shelve the attitude and contribute to the discussions or just go away.
    No, sorry. I don't accept that accusation.

    If you think I'm being "condescending", "rude" and "nasty" then I direct you to the emoticon at the end of my last post. Although I guess you won't see it if you don't want to see it, it was put there for a reason. It's meant to indicate a reasonably friendly tone.

    I've pointed much of this stuff out to Rick several times before, and the message still doesn't seem to be getting through. I can't discount the possibility that some of what he does is being done on purpose, but I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt. His first post on this forum seemed - to me anyway - to be aimed at ruffling feathers and sticking a flag in some territory. Perhaps you might want to go back and have a look to remind yourself of that time? I wasn't the only one who thought we were being sent up. But up to and including now, I believe I'm being sufficiently polite and respectful. And unlike you, I haven't told anybody to "go away"....

    This forum is probably one of the best on the web ( in the English language, anyway ) for getting down to the nitty-gritty about these old Japanese cars. It's a shame to see it - after all we've been through - seeming to believe that the story of the "American" market cars is the only story. How can we possibly discuss what turned up in north America, or what was going on in the factory that made these cars, without taking into account everything that was being made there? To talk about batches of HLS30s being painted, whilst ignoring the fact that nearly twice as many Japanese market S30-prefixed and PS30-prefixed cars were going through the very same paint shop at the same time seems positively careless!

    I suggest that if you've got any further objection to my posts that you simply use the 'IGNORE' function. If you want to take it up personally with me, then send me a PM. As for Rick, I'm rather inclined to believe that he's cool enough to take a little pointed criticism on the chin without even flinching. He might even give a little back, which will be well taken. That's the way we eventually get somewhere with all this....

    Alan T.

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    I agree with you as far as content, not everyone who posts here is correct.

    What I do object to are the nasty, sarcastic comments which are unnecessary and rude. You can agree to disagree without being that way. It's easy to be aggressive and nasty from behind the safety of a computer screen.

    I would prefer to make my own determination on what is posted rather than have one member abuse another, however it may be intended, in this forum.
    Last edited by zcar70; 06-22-2010 at 07:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zcar70 View Post
    What I do object to are the nasty, sarcastic comments which are unnecessary and rude. You can agree to disagree without being that way. It's easy to be aggressive and nasty from behind the safety of a computer screen.
    Once again, you are accusing me of being "nasty", "sarcastic" and "aggressive" ( where? how? ) whilst you ignore the circumstances and backstory. Believe me, I'm intending to be adequately polite and restrained. There are no members of this forum who are beyond reproach. No holy cows.

    What's this "behind the safety of a computer screen" stuff? I'll stand by what I say and how I say it in front of ANYBODY on this forum face-to-face, you included. That's because I believe I'm being reasonable, sufficiently respectful and as accurate I can be in what I write.

    If you think I'm just some kind of keyboard warrior then that's your choice, but I would have hoped you'd seen enough of me on this forum by now to understand that, with me, what you see is pretty much what you get.

    And thanks for reminding me that I'm "...in Europe...".

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zcar70
    I would prefer to make my own determination on what is posted rather than have one member abuse another, however it may be intended, in this forum.
    You seem to be the one making that determination. Not only about what is posted but also it's intent. As I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01
    Stop reading the 'tone' and simply read the information. The tone is really hard to discern in the written word anyway........
    To which I'll throw it to back your're own words:
    Quote Originally Posted by zcar70
    Enough already.
    Last edited by sblake01; 06-22-2010 at 08:18 AM.
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    Default Getting back to paint

    OK. Someone mentioned the assembly line in Japan. I "borrowed" this picture from Esprist as It was provided to him by Mr. K. Endo.. If my old eyes do not deceive me. I see my car in front, then an orange car, then a red car. Anybody see anything else? Now we can put this to bed once and for all. .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Randy Taylor
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtaylor View Post
    If my old eyes do not deceive me. I see my car in front, then an orange car, then a red car. Anybody see anything else? Now we can put this to bed once and for all. .
    No, we can't even let it put its pyjamas on.

    That's not the paint shop, so it doesn't say anything about batches of cars during the painting process....


    *Please do not see this as an attack on you, your family, the USA and its dependants and/or anybody else. Your rights are not affected*


    Cordially, yr hmble svnt in EU, etc etc

    Alan T.

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    Ha Ha! Yep, that's your car leading the way Randy. It would be quite an eye opening experience for most of us to see the actual progression of events as a car travels through an automobile production facility. They change position in the lineup several times during the build for a number of reasons. There are a few critical points along the way where it is crucial to have the cars strictly in a predetermined order, so as to mesh with other lines merging together, such as the chassis line, where the cars in the posted pic, shown on the highline are lowered onto the drivelines and before that occurs, the engines have to be scheduled to coincide with the remainder of the chassis components. In '69/'70 this was accomplished using a "broadcast system", which was a mainframe linked printer system that was fed all pertinent information to all locations in the assembly plant. This enabled everyone to stay on the same page (pun intended) and produce perfectly orchestrated assemblies that came together to form the specified vehicle, no matter the model or market variation. There was more than one "sending" from the broadcast system also, where changes and updates were made/added, but only at allowable points, so work already completed was not effected.
    I would have loved to have taken the Nissan Shatai Hiratsuka plant tour back in the day to see our beloved cars being built. It's still fun, piecing together clues and seeing new (to me) data and pics put here on this site from our fellow members. I think we all do draw our own conclusions and occasionally change opinions from the evidence presented. To me it's all speculative and just a hobby to have fun with.

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    Randy,
    Your picture originally came from me.
    Enjoy the Ride
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    As soon as you're done bitching like a little girl, WE can get back on the Subject.

    Nuff said?
    Quitcherbitchen
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    Guys,
    Rick doesn't post with any intention of irritation. He knows this site is "hardball" and he likes to contribute and discuss things with this gang. Welcome him. He's a good-'ol Z guy who wants to talk about Zs. Just read past his # slang. He's used to that format and we can all assume he is talking about HLS30Us, HLS30UNs, or HLS30UVs. I wonder how many of you know the difference between the three models imported into North America. Or that there WERE three different model specifications.

    John,
    Climb out of Alan's _ss lest you make a horse's _ss of yourself. Instead, thank him for bringing reality to what would otherwise be little more than a gossip column. England is not in Europe.

    Thank you, again, Geezer for our lengthy conversations that brought so much understanding of the production process to my attention. The picture Randy posted came from that research conversation when I was questioning the color sequencing some years ago. Kats has my whole collection.

    Thank you and drive happy
    Last edited by 26th-Z; 06-22-2010 at 03:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zs-ondabrain View Post
    As soon as you're done bitching like a little girl, WE can get back on the Subject.

    Nuff said?
    Quitcherbitchen
    To whom ( and / or what ) is this post directed?

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    Wow, has this thread gone off track. Hope someone from NH grabs it and it doesn't get shipped overseas to people with money. If it stay's in NH, when you redo it, I will blast and powdercoat your control arms satin black for free. 8)

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    I cannot vouch for the Nissan plant in particular, but I know that Geezer is on track with the broadcast and painting systems that were commonly practiced among a lot of auto manufacturing plants.

    Chrysler used to paint every single model that they could that called for the same color all at once at the same plant, regardless of being Chrysler, Plymouth or Dodge, 2door, 4door... anything goes. The fender tags on those cars were painted standing up so they could read them, then screwed down on the other side with a zinc plated sheet metal screw. On a true survivor, one screw will be painted over bent metal and the other bare.

    I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Nissan painted other vehicle bodies with the S30 model in the same paint plant before sending them off down their broadcast corresponding assembly plant.
    Last edited by DaveBonds; 06-22-2010 at 06:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    To whom ( and / or what ) is this post directed?
    Mostly You, and the others who are off track on the thread.

    I click on a thread to become hopefully educated on an early Z that is For Sale on Craigslist, Instead, I end up clicking thru the clutter of a bunch of bitching about who's right and who's wrong. So I ask myself, "What the Fucque does that have to do with the #400 Z on Craigslist?"

    And instead of just getting back on track or just walking away, You're right back looking for another fight? Who the hell cares about who it's about. Just get on with the thread. and grow up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zs-ondabrain View Post
    Mostly You, and the others who are off track on the thread.
    So basically everybody, but me in particular. Noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zs-ondabrain
    I click on a thread to become hopefully educated on an early Z that is For Sale on Craigslist, Instead, I end up clicking thru the clutter of a bunch of bitching about who's right and who's wrong. So I ask myself, "What the Fucque does that have to do with the #400 Z on Craigslist?"
    I'd say a lot of it has to do with the "#400 Z" ( ha ha! I see what you did there...! ). If you can't accept that a discussion about the spec and details of a particular car ( in this case, a lot was posted about its OEM paint colour for example ) will naturally bring up related discussions, then I really wonder what it is you expect to see when you participate in a forum? Some of our best collective 'work' comes through such sidetracking. Show me a thread without any subject drift and digression, and I'll show you a pretty dry - and possibly rather short - thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zs-ondabrain
    And instead of just getting back on track or just walking away, You're right back looking for another fight? Who the hell cares about who it's about. Just get on with the thread. and grow up.
    "Another fight"? "Grow up"? You accuse somebody of "bitching like a little girl" ( and "quitcherbitchen" - which is a new one on me ) and then you ask them to "grow up". Bizarre. And you write this over your rather hefty signature line 'advertising' too. The irony appears to be lost on you.

    Seems to me that none of this is really about what is written or the way it is written, but more about who is writing it. If that wasn't the case, then 'zcar70' should be complaining about a few posts in this thread other than just mine.....

    For the record, I think threads like this are the very essence of this forum. The forum takes a specific early car ( it's for sale, so everybody and his dog can pick faults in it without any thought for the owner or his feelings ) and then takes it apart at the same time as telling us what it's 'really' worth. Speculations are made, and somebody pops up with some bad data which is quickly revealed to be mistaken. Somebody takes offence at something a little too easily, and a storm brews in a teacup. It'll soon blow over. Meanwhile, "#400Z" ( tee hee ) is still for sale.

    Really, what's not to like? "Quitcherbitchen" indeed.


    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01 View Post
    Sorry, zcar70, but in this case (as in many others) I have to agree with Alan. Rick seems to post alot of information based on his own recolletcions and logic. Sometimes I think he does it just to see the reaction. That's my opinion. Am I being nasty for voicing it? If so then you need to take down the first paragraph in you post.......
    Morning, Stephen! Morning, everyone!

    Well, guys, Stephen has me figured out pretty accurately!
    I do enjoy the bantering. When I contribute, it is indeed according to what I
    have learned and can recall from over the years, especially the 1970 decade.
    So in the cases where I don't have the information recorded in some manner,
    I have to rely on memory which, when talking about things of 30 and 40
    years ago, can be a little "fuzzy" at times.

    I do it with full realization that someone else may have more accurate or
    more recent information. In that sense, I guess you could say it is for the
    purpose of generating feedback, which IS a form of reaction. I don't think
    that either Stephen or Alan is being nasty at all; in fact, I rather enjoy their
    responses, which I don't interpret as being nasty, but rather as an indicator
    of their zeal and intensity regarding things 'Z'. I really appreciate that!

    BTW, for the younger guys who are management prospects, a very useful
    technique for generating discussion among the staff is to make a statement
    or a proposal, then ask where your thinking is wrong or why the proposal
    wouldn't work. That way you can get the thinking of a whole bunch of
    people into the mix, while inciting some really lively, constructive interaction
    in so doing!

    Moonpup, no offense intended! I was actually agreeing with while amplifying
    what you had said.
    Mike B, thanks for your information, which I will use to update my data. And
    also for the excellent suggestion on where to find even more information; I
    will certainly visit those sites.
    Geezer (Ron), your contributions are ALWAYS very insightful to all of us, on
    how the internal operations of an auto manufacturing plant function and
    dovetail to arrive at a finished product. I totally agree that a guided tour of
    a plant, especially one producing 240Z's (no longer possible), would not only
    be instructive, but exciting as well. Perhaps something like that will be
    possible during ZCON2010 in the near future.
    Alan, thanks for understanding that when I abbreviate a VIN, I am not
    slighting or denigrating the Z population of any other nation or continent.
    GaryinNJ did a fine job of describing how I am using a sort of shorthand that
    most will understand while others make their regional adjustments.

    All of you fellow Z lovers are great, and it would be wonderful to have an
    opportunity to meet and talk in person with each one of you at some point
    in time!! What would keep that from happening? (Here we go again!)

    All Z Best,.........................Rick (and Kathy, of course)
    1969 Z.CAR (#00013 10/69) since 8/30/76
    1969 ITSA.Z (#00171 11/69) since 8/24/73 28K mi
    1970 (#01905 2/70) since 1/24/11
    1970 (#06289 6/70) original owner
    1971 (#19851 1/71) sold
    1975 280Z (#01343 1/75) mint original
    1971 PL-510 2dr (our 160Z) since 12/31/75
    1969 1600 Rdstr (another 160-Z) since 10/3/10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick View Post
    ......snip......
    Moonpup, no offense intended! I was actually agreeing with while amplifying
    what you had said. ....snip.....


    I GIVE UP!
    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
    1975 280 Zzzap
    1977 280 ZXR



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    This thread was off track when things like brochures, defroster wires, and Solex's were brought up. What has taken place in the thread was/is more interesting and informative than the car itself anyway. The car is a rag: period. Some say it shoud be restored but come on, no one is really going to put the kind of money and effort into this particular example unless the simply have an adiding interest in Datsun history. It is, after all. #400 not #004. Rick, I'm glad you got my meaning. You only have about 8 years or so on me so I too must rely on a 40 year old memory to talk about the 70s so I can't be accused of throwing stones in a glass house. "Posting to see the reaction" as I said is totally different from "posting with intention of irritation" as Chris said. I was not accusing you of the latter, in fact, I was not accusing at all, just making an observation. The latter would be a description of what our Ohio based 'mostly stock and original' 280Z owner does.

    Moonpup, I feel your pain.......
    Last edited by sblake01; 06-23-2010 at 07:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy & Rick View Post
    ...while others make their regional adjustments.
    I hope to meet you also one day Rick. We would get along just fine without worrying about our inappropriate terminology or placement of it. I couldn't help but have a good chuckle when I read the above quote. I was imagining the look on Alan's face whilst he reads it. I love/appreciate all you guys just the way you are, don't change a thing.

    Has there been enough interest in HLS30-00400 for anyone to request more pictures? Anyone considering this car had better take a full inventory of the correct early parts and get much better views or preferably see it in person. It will take a special, commited person with deep pockets to take this project on and do it justice.
    Last edited by geezer; 06-23-2010 at 08:47 AM.

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    I would rip that engine out of there and throw a turbo or lsx in there. How does that sound!

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    240Z Elec. Upgrade guy Zs-ondabrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetterben View Post
    I would rip that engine out of there and throw a turbo or lsx in there. How does that sound!
    And along comes Ben....

    Just make sure it's got a good head gasket on the new motor. Ask Ben what that's all about....

    I'd say #400 has potential. Hell, I took a 15 year squater and turned it into a great Daily driver that needs minor body work to be a solid 8/10 How bad could #400 be. A little TLC here and there and it can be a Great car, with a faily low Vin. As compared to the Thousands of 240Z's still out there.

    JMHO
    Dave
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    HLH info at CZCC Do a search for info on the other upgrades I offer.

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    No really i would, i could care less about numbers or years if i want to chop it up make it a convert and throw a v8 in i would. Who really cares. its not special. its a piece of tin made in a shapely manner we all like. The only people who care about numbers are people that have more money than anyone on this site has. SO what do we care? is someone on here gonna buy that car and drop 100,000 bucks into it to bring it to its value of 20 grand?

    What about all the people that in 69 or 70 turned there cars into racers???? oh no....better scold them bastards.....oh numbers matching....this is not a damn judge.
    Last edited by yetterben; 06-23-2010 at 09:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yetterben View Post
    What about all the people that in 69 or 70 turned there cars into racers???? oh no....better scold them bastards.....oh numbers matching....this is not a damn judge.
    Hey watch it now! Fully restored, these cars have about the same value as a new Honda Civic Si.
    Jon

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    exactly..people get all hub bub about early cars. is it cool to know where they are sure. but unless you got 100 grand to make it worth 20 who cares.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yetterben View Post
    ....i could care less about numbers or years.....
    Go on then, care less.

    Quote Originally Posted by yetterben
    ...if i want to chop it up make it a convert and throw a v8 in i would.
    Go on then. Oh, hang on - you're just saying theoretically, right? OK, I get it....



    But seriously, are you sure you're commenting on the right thread ( or on the right car? )? I think the general concensus here so far has been that the car is not all that attractive a proposition except for its ( relatively ) low body serial number. I don't think anyone's hyping it up as the best thing since sliced bread, or telling us that it's a copper-bottomed negative-equity beating 'investment'.

    Quote Originally Posted by yetterben
    What about all the people that in 69 or 70 turned there cars into racers???? oh no....better scold them bastards.....
    Well, not too many people turned them into race cars in 1969 ( unless you know better? ), but the cars that have been race cars for most of their lives are now some of the most sought-after of S30-series Z cars. Rather than 'scolding' the owners / builders, I think most of us would pat them on the back and congratulate them. I for one would always be drawn to the scruffy old race car rather than the 'Concours' stock car standing next to it.

    There's an interesting period race car coming up for auction here in England next month, and the auction house have put an estimate of 40,000 to 60,000 ( that's roughly $60,000 to $90,000 US at the moment ) and some are saying that it's actually pretty 'cheap' if it goes for that kind of money. It'll be interesting to see what it gets knocked down for. You can't buy the kind of history that this car has all that often....

    The slightly strange thing at the moment is that these cars are fetching quite a lot less than some of their contemporaries. 26th-Z commented a few days ago that they are hugely cheaper than most of the 'Big' Healeys, and cars that are considered mechanically and/or cosmetically 'inferior' are worth more. I guess it might have something to do with the perception that tens of thousands of them survive. Is the S30-series Z a victim of its own commercial success?

    As for 'customising' or modifying the cars, in my experience the same kind of rivet-counting and pecking orders exist in those circles as they do in 'stock' or 'collector' car circles. If your car doesn't have the 'right' parts on it, if it wasn't engineered or built well, or - horror of horrors - it doesn't even look good, then it's going to be considered lower down in the pecking order - and therefore worth less - than one that has and does. Same thing as all big boy's toys, in fact.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't think you're going to give anyone here heart failure if you were to buy "#400 Z" ( ) and "throw" a turbo or LSX engine in there. In fact, you might find that some so-called 'collectors' would be quite happy to see another possible competitor in their game of Low-VIN Bingo elimininated.......



    Alan T.

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    I don't think -00400 warrants a premium price. There isn't any historical significance to it's number, it doesn't have any race/owner pedigree - it's just a run-down Series I.

    To me, it looks like a $2,500-$3,000 car that will require a minimum of $7,500 to $10,000 to get right (with a lot of work sweet equity). The figure could be significantly more if the interior and under pinning are in the same condition as the exterior. I would assume the worst.
    Gary
    Guardian of HLS30-91415
    Previous Owner of a 10/70 240Z ('83-'85)

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    Thanks for the correct info Chris. Alan, you crack me up sometimes. I didn't know I had rights other than the right for correct information in this club! Geezer, as always, thanks for your posts.

    Sorry to be off point guys.
    Last edited by rtaylor; 06-23-2010 at 11:21 AM.
    Randy Taylor
    2/71 240z

    HLS30-23242

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    Dear Mr. HS30-H,

    Please be informed that in this thread entitled "HLS30-00400 on CL" started by none other than myself (Mr. Moonpup), that any and all persons whom wish to contribute to it (yourself included) have both my consent & blessings to refer to said car as #400, number 400, or whatever terminology they may think of for the z car already identified as HLS30-00400.

    Sincerely,
    Mr. Moonpup
    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
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    I was just ranting in general about low vin cars. I would do it to car 5 10 17 or 53.The market for low vin z cars is prob like what 50 people in the world. Its not a 2000gt.

    I guess i don't understand the drooling by certain camps over low vin cars. What significance is it. Its still the same car nothing is different if anything **** is farked up. Does car 000004 or whatever that much better than a 73 544594549or whatever? Is it worth more money to who......this is like a bunch of people going oh ahhh i have action comics first appearance of superman.

    Point being is car 00 whatever is not worth anymore than someones super sweet 76 280 with a rb26 in it. I agree this car is not worth 6 grand. not to anyone other then the Jay lenos of the world. I guess every time i see a thread about a low vin car come up people break out the flags draw lines and bicker in reality i am the type of guy to throw a Molotov cocktail at it so know one gets it. Metaphorical but yah get my drift.

    As for race cars indeed cars with a log book and history should be put higher than the first car to roll of the line sent to Canada for salt testing!
    Last edited by yetterben; 06-23-2010 at 11:33 AM.

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    Oh i hate the term collector. Why....Collectors are evil evil people who hoard things and hide them from the rest of the world so that know one will ever enjoy it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpup View Post
    Dear Mr. HS30-H,

    Παρακαλώ ενημερώνεται ότι σε αυτό το νήμα έχον το δικαίωμα " HLS30-00400 σε CL" αρχισμένος από κανέναν εκτός από με (ο κ. Moonpup), ο οποίος οποιαδήποτε και όλα τα πρόσωπα που η επιθυμία να συμβάλει σε το (οι ίδιοι συμπεριλαμβανόμενος) έχει και ο δύο τη συγκατάθεσή μου & ευλογίες για να αναφερθεί στο εν λόγω αυτοκίνητο ως #400, αριθμός 400, ή ο, τιδήποτε ορολογία μπορούν να σκεφτούν για το αυτοκίνητο ζ που προσδιορίστηκε ήδη ως HLS30-00400.

    Sincerely,
    Mr. Moonpup
    Dear Mr Moonpup,

    Είστε το πίσω τέλος ενός αλόγου!

    And here's a little souvenir of the real "#13" for you. You have my permission to use it as your screensaver. Enjoy!

    Έχετε μια συμπαθητική ημέρα!

    Alan T.
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    Are you guys gonna level up and then go play warcraft?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Dear Mr Moonpup,

    Είστε το πίσω τέλος ενός αλόγου!

    And here's a little souvenir of the real "#13" for you. You have my permission to use it as your screensaver. Enjoy!

    Έχετε μια συμπαθητική ημέρα!

    Alan T.

    Kuzingatia asili, ni kuhusu kile inatarajiwa!
    Last edited by moonpup; 06-23-2010 at 01:34 PM.
    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
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    1977 280 ZXR



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    I think that means dude he is gonna hit you with his Mohawk grenade....! You gonna stand for that, are..... are you gonna bitch slap him back with your level 2 million necromancer spell!
    Last edited by yetterben; 06-23-2010 at 01:35 PM.

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    It's all Greek to me! (Well, except for what Moonpup said.)
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    Hey!

    Her Majesty the 26th just reminded me that #403 resides with us! She was officially HLS30UN-00403 and she was 905 Monte Carlo Red. God rust her soul.
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    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
    Go Gators
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    Quote Originally Posted by krislou80 View Post
    does it have defogger control module so i can see it? I'm just interested with it.
    spambot!!!!!!
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    What a hoot. Glad to see that this place remains constant.

    As for England not being in Europe. Poppy-cock. Our pommie mates are all French anyway.

    As for said #400. Well, it looks a bit to gone to rebuild but don't tell Chris that or he'll want it.
    Zed not Zee

    HS30-00352 still being rebuilt (year 6)
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    I agree the price is much more than I would pay even if it was driveable. But if I had room for another resto job I might offer $2500. Low VIN numbers mean nothing anyway unless someone wants a concourse 240. Or is that concors? Somebody help me.

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    Well, it looks like the control arms will be powdercoated for free.

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    Did you buy -00400?
    Gary
    Guardian of HLS30-91415
    Previous Owner of a 10/70 240Z ('83-'85)

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    She just got dropped off.

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    Laidback Purist moonpup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris280Z View Post
    She just got dropped off.
    So it got dropped off on Sept. 6th and now it's back up on Sept. 12th.

    http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/1950359633.html

    Wuz up wid dat?
    1971 240Z Tenth Anniversary
    1975 280 Zzzap
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    I've got 3 other Z's, too many datsun's and not enough room for them, got a 67 pickup also. I think my add is a lot more honest than the last one and I'm just trying to get my money back. Make me an offer.
    Chris
    Last edited by Chris280Z; 09-28-2010 at 05:56 AM.

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    Looks like you have yourself a good parts car.
    Gary
    Guardian of HLS30-91415
    Previous Owner of a 10/70 240Z ('83-'85)

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    Steve

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    Sold on ebay for $2,045. Hopefully Chris280Z got his money back out of it. Good luck to whoever bought it.

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    Sold on ebay for $2,045. Hopefully Chris280Z got his money back out of it. Good luck to whoever bought it.

    -Mike
    Whatever happened to this car? Here's the link to a PDF copy of the eBay listing with the final sales price (be sure to increase the PDF size):

    http://media.collectorcarpricetracke...0568332927.pdf
    Last edited by lonetreesteve; 06-29-2014 at 12:48 PM.
    Steve

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