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Thread: Weber DCOE tuning swap shop - sticky?

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Default Weber DCOE tuning swap shop - sticky?

    I was thinking that we here at Classic Z cars are a unique bunch that are willing to share knowledge at the slight hint of a question.

    What I would like to propose is an online collaborative parts sharing for Weber DCOE?

    Anybody who has triple webers on their cars, has a bunch of spare parts, jets, linkages, rod ends, emulsion tubes, etc. We are all trying to improve the tune of our cars, and for the vast majority of us, we settle on good enough, rather than perfect because the price of jets and air correctors are prohibitively expensive to buy in bulk. 6 of anything is about 40 bucks.

    however, a padded envelope is not that expensive and a stamp is within all our means. What I propose is a listing of all the spare jet sets, air corrector sets, venturis, chokes, linkages, etc we may have that we would not mind loaning out to other Weber owning members.

    The purpose of this is to let people try out different configurations on different engines at nothing more than the cost of an envelope so they can find what works and only have to BUY parts once.

    This will also aid everybody out as people can report back before and after runs with their new set ups and collectively we will all see more cause and effect from a set of mains or idle jets.

    I am about to place a large order to get my gal dialed in, but what I will not be using I will offer to anybody else to try in their DCOE's.

    We can all save each other a bunch of money.

    I will make a list of all the parts I have available for check out.

    This whole thing will rely solely on the honor system. The payout is a larger data base of information on the effects of what parts do what. Since we are all running L series engines with L24, L26, or L28's we can really narrow down what is a good configuration and what is not.

    We may find a special setup by accident that really sings.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    I'm in.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    I'll be going to Keith Franck's place pretty soon to tune the Z with his new idle jets and e-tubes. Luckily enough, he's local to me. I'll post up after doing so. Sounds like a pretty good idea though, although I currently don't have much of a jet selection to send out.
    2/74 260Z

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    I need three new 175 fuel bowl needle valves. Once I get them I can unload the three new 225's that are in the carbs and the three old 175's





    I also need 12 air horn tabs.




    I also have 3 extra long-flo filters
    Last edited by Blue; 08-07-2012 at 11:45 AM.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I currently have Installed:

    160 Air correctors
    130 Mains
    F11 Emulsion Tube
    55F8 Idle Jets


    170 air correctors I can loan

    I have ordered:
    180 Air corrector
    140 Main jets
    50F9 Idle Jet
    55F9 idle jet


    I have to go through all my spares to see what I have available.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    I have a set of tripples on a canon Intake and either one or two spare complete carbs-and a canon intake in two parts (broken runner). I believe they are all DCOE 40s, but on the od parts I am actually not sure. I also have two pairs of the Down Flow Webers with manifolds. I have the Haynes Techbook Weber Carburetor Manual (also covers SUs)-and an original Mikuni book, and the Nissan Motorsports Schematic on the Mikunis, and SUs, early and late.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I currently have Installed:

    170 Air correctors
    130 Main jet
    F11 Emulsion Tube
    55F9 Idle Jets


    Updated Loanable tuning jets:
    180 Air corrector
    160 Air corrector
    140 Main jets
    130 Main jets
    55F8 idle jet
    50F9 idle jet

    parts coming in:
    120 Main jet
    60F9 idle jet
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    Too bad I'm the other side of the ocean but we do that also here in Europe

    I've tuned 3 different configurations of L28 always with 40DCOE.
    I always found idle jets 50f9 or 55f9 working the best over xxf8 units for instance which are too lean for our L-engine.
    F11 emulation tube always works good also.
    My car was always healthy during accel with bleed jet (the one on the bottom of the fuel bowl) being clogged with solder.

    The rest of the configuration depends on choke size, carb size.
    with 32mm choke, N42 head, flat tops & Schneider stg2 cam:
    Main: 135
    Air: 200
    idle: 55f9
    => good AFR but timing was low to avoid ping. setup was undercarbed after 5500tr/m (rich AFR at high rpm whatever the air jet was)

    then with P79 milled/port/polished, Rebello street cam & flat tops, still 32mm chokes:
    Main: 115
    Air: 185
    idle: 50f9
    => New setup is much more efficient, I had to restrict fuel a lot to get good performance (= good AFR). car is undercarbed for now after 5000rpm.

    Stock setup with 35mm choke (too big!)
    Main: 140
    Air: 180
    idle: 50f9
    => not very efficient, a lot of fuel required since vacuum is not so good during operation, idle is easy to tune.
    Last edited by Lazeum; 08-21-2012 at 12:17 PM.

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    55F9 is a great idle jet for L28. It is so close for me. I could probably get away running with it all the time as it is only lean under VERY low load, steady state cruising in 3rd and 4th gear.

    I am surprised that your mains are so rich! But every car is different. I am betting the bigger choke on your cars allow you to run more fuel in the mains as you are getting more air. My 30mm chokes are making my 130 mains very rich indeed. I may need to get some 32mm chokes.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  10. #10
    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    The main on the stock setup has to be big since 35mm choke does not provide enough suction to pull enough gas out of carbs. So we have to open up jet size.
    bigger jet does not always mean more fuel on different setups. The 115 on my current P79 setup is pulling more fuel than the 140 on stock setup for instance.

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    OH I agree, The amount of variables that contribute to fuel delivery from the carbs to the engine is staggering. Head, exhaust, camshaft profile, carb chokes, ignition, Valve lash, etc. Its all contributes to how much vacuum the carb sees, and what is the strength of that vacuum. Such a wonderfully complex thing to tune, and when you think about how Webers are built, and how many ways you can tailor them to accommodate so many variables, the beauty of the design is amazing.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Hmmmm for the idle jet, I have 55F11 and they seem rich on the 240z with cam. I get the car back in a couple of days and can investigate more. I probably do not have the balance between exposed progression holes and idle enrichment set correctly as I could drive around with no mains installed up to ~ 3000rpm... that must be rich indeed...maybe they were drilled.

    Anyway, the books and the net say this for relative idle jet air orifice size:

    Rich - F6 F12 F9 F8 F11 F13 F2 F4 F5 F7 Fl F3 - Lean.

    Does anyone have a table of absolute hole sizes and number of holes for the air inlets for the above parts? I think it is time to raise the bar from symbols to real numbers. Assigning a cross sectional effective hole size to each symbol would be a first step.

    Thanks!
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    That's why they look beautiful, it is because they are powerful!
    The reward is the power & the sound out of them. When you tune them right, their sound becomes better also. You can use O2 sensor, butt dyno but ear is also a good tool to know if they are healthy.

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    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    Does anyone have a table of absolute hole sizes and number of holes for the air inlets for the above parts? I think it is time to raise the bar from symbols to real numbers. Assigning a cross sectional effective hole size to each symbol would be a first step.
    go look at the chart in the link below

    Then we need to do some maths to find out what is which.
    Lat's take an example to compare __f11 & __f9 with same inlet orifice (the 55 in front of 55f9). they have only one hole each so it is easy to compare.

    F9 is having air hole at 1.00mm & outlet at 2.00mm.
    whereas
    F11 is having air hole at 1.20mm & outlet at 1.50mm


    So for the facts: f11 is having more air going inside it ==> leaner than f9
    On the other side: Outlet orifice is smaller on f11, it means suction is higher with f11 than f9 at same intake pressure. It means to me gas & air would be sucked harder. Gas being more dense than air (and inlet orifice being a restrictor for gas), more air versus gas will be added to the flow compare to f9.
    So to me, f11 are definitely leaner than f9.

    Maybe I'm wrong with my theory but this is how I analyze idle jets. I'll be pleased to hear what everybody's thinking.
    To try something new on my car, I wanted to try richer jet than f9. So I went with f6 since outlet orifice are the same size, only air orifice is changing so it is easy to find out.

    Same goes for f8 jets, they are leaner than f9, only air orifice is changing so analysis is straightforward.
    Last edited by Lazeum; 08-23-2012 at 11:56 AM.

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Blue, could you drive in 4th gear up to 3000 rpm with the main Etubes removed? That is fascinating.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Yeah it was strange. It is a 4 speed, I cant recall if I was in 4th or still in 3rd but I was surprised to see the high rpms.

    I'll do some empirical runs with lots of data hopefully on Saturday.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  17. #17
    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Default Weber DCOE Idle Jet Analysis F9 F8 F11 Rich Lean 240z Datsun triple




    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Blue; 08-23-2012 at 04:37 PM.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  18. #18
    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    to make sure we're on the same page.
    the air inlet is the side hole, the gas inlet is the bottom hole and the outlet is the top hole.

    see diagram below:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    First 200mi ~ 13mpg, next 160mi ~26mpg.. same jets...idle enrichment, throttle plate position progression holes have very interesting interplay I hope to start investigating soon.

    btw the 3000rpm with mains removed was when pig-rich 13mpg setting.
    Last edited by Blue; 08-26-2012 at 06:50 AM.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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    Brian
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    I have set(6) of 65f9 idle jets, 165, 170 air correctors if anyone needs them. Im running 45's(152) on a stock L24 with 2.5" 3-2-1 headers. Chokes 36, 60f9 idle, 145 main, 195 air, f16 e tube. I dont have a o2 sensor but it runs very good right now. Definately rich at idle but transition is pretty smooth. All of my jetting decisions have been made based off of spark plug color. I thought about trying a 60F8 to see if idle will lean out some without affecting transition to mains but my guess is that it will. Glad to see people willing to contribute...jets get expensive. Oh yeah...last time I checked, probably with little different jetting, my milage was about 20 mpg.

    Brian
    Last edited by pjoe; 08-26-2012 at 11:41 AM.

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    wow you are running 45's with 36mm chokes on a stockL24! Great googley Moogley!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Brian
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    Yeah thats about what everyone says. I also live in the city and most of my driving is short trips around neighborhood. My biggest challenge was getting the throttles to open at EXACTLY the same time. That made all the difference in the world when it came to just off idle driving. I also have the air bleed screws turned out 1 or 2 turns past what was needed to ballance air flow between barrels of carb. Its fun around town but really fun out of town.

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    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    that was my first thought: you're having big chokes. your next move could be to source smaller units but you would have to tune everything again...

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    Brian
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    If anything I'll bolt on SU's and save webers for later use but Im not even close to given up on them yet. They run pretty good for how I drive. I assume everyone agrees 60f8's will not help. Your 151's have 3 progression holes too, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    wow you are running 45's with 36mm chokes on a stockL24! Great googley Moogley!
    Do you adjust your carbs with a pair of heavy-duty zircon-encrusted tweezers?

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    No I use a screw driver!
    Not sure what you mean by that question?

    Am I missing something.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Registered User beermanpete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    No I use a screw driver!
    Not sure what you mean by that question?

    Am I missing something.
    No, you are not missing anything. A bad attempt at humor on my part it seems.

    Great Googley Moogley was used in a Frank Zappa song. My reply was another Zappa line.

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    Registered User conedodger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beermanpete View Post
    No, you are not missing anything. A bad attempt at humor on my part it seems.

    Great Googley Moogley was used in a Frank Zappa song. My reply was another Zappa line.
    "It's a way of life"

    I knew you were referencing Zappa... 8)
    Rob
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    1999 Toyota 4Runner Supercharged
    1975 Porsche 914 stroker motor autoX car
    1973 Datsun 240Z Restoration project. New paint in original white. E31 head on 2.4 block. Nissan Motorsports header. R200 with Nissan motorsports LSD.

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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    My bad at 39 I got great googly moogly from the old man in the commercial who misspelled the Chiefs in an endzone on football field and painted Chefs. HAHA...

    My apologies!
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    My bad at 39 I got great googly moogly from the old man in the commercial who misspelled the Chiefs in an endzone on football field and painted Chefs. HAHA...

    My apologies!
    It's alright, you didn't arouse the Central Scrutinizer... All is well...
    Rob
    2000 BMW R1100 RT-SE (for sale)
    1999 Toyota 4Runner Supercharged
    1975 Porsche 914 stroker motor autoX car
    1973 Datsun 240Z Restoration project. New paint in original white. E31 head on 2.4 block. Nissan Motorsports header. R200 with Nissan motorsports LSD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedyone_kenobi View Post
    My bad at 39 I got great googly moogly from the old man in the commercial who misspelled the Chiefs in an endzone on football field and painted Chefs. HAHA...

    My apologies!

    No apology required. Frank didn't make up that line and I assumed you quoted Frank.

    Now it's off to Montana to be a dental floss tycoon for me. (The tweezers ae for plucking the dental floss.)

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Default Mule Jets

    Stephen,

    I was thinking that the best tuning tool (cost wise) would be a small drill set, soldering iron and an O2 sensor.

    The idea would be to simply drill jets/correctors bigger or ; solder and drill smaller to experimentally tune. Once nearly dialed in with the "mule jets", buy the correct factory machined jets that match the "mule jets".

    http://www.piercemanifolds.com/product_p/98.0181.00.htm
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  33. #33
    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    That is awesome blue!
    I would think you would need a drill press to do a good job, but you are 100% right. That is awesome
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
    1968 Datsun 2000 SRL311-03416

  34. #34
    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    From what I read, the "pin vise" is used to drill by hand. The holes will not be as precise as factory but it should allow for very close approximations.

    I also read that one must be careful to keep the solder off the mating surfaces to ensure a good seal.


    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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