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Thread: Major screw up

  1. #1
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Default Major screw up

    I did a trade with a dude from CA... He sent me set of triple webbers and manifold. Only downside is that THIS IS NOT MATCHING TRIPLET


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    Is it anyway possible to run with this setup or should i just resell these as matching pair + one..??

    All of them are 40mm.

    Edit: dont mind about that booklet it came with the package!
    Last edited by Reverend; 03-13-2013 at 10:27 AM.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Looks like a mash-up of the old and new style DCOE. This won't work (well) because of a few design changes, notably the different pitch and taper of the idle screws. I'm sure there are other minute differences that will make setting the carbs up properly a major headache.

    Get a matching set.
    2/74 260Z

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    Registered User siteunseen's Avatar
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    Damn hippies!
    1972 240Z #918 New Sight Orange
    1977 280Z #305 Light Blue Metallic
    1972 240Z #110 Persimmons Red

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    I wonder if i could get a similar style 3rd carburator...will it then work?
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  5. #5
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Those 2 are 40 DCOE 18's and that "extra" is 40 DCOE 149
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Registered User Lazeum's Avatar
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    The progression holes are most likely different, don't run those together.

    I would hunt for a 3rd DCOE 18, it shouldn't be too hard to source. We are many with this type of DCOE.
    Matt - 72' 240z

  7. #7
    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Some junkers near you @ low price: Three 40 Dcoe 18 26 45 for Spares or Repair | eBay

    NOTE THE 18 NEEDS A THROTTLE SHAFT IT COULD BE TOAST.... I did this fix once. Not too bad to do. You may be able to scavenge the parts from the others.

    New seals would be needed.
    Last edited by Blue; 03-14-2013 at 04:32 AM.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


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  8. #8
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Might just be easier (read: cheaper) to sell these 2 + 1 and try to get a matching triple.. :/ Dayum my luck.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  9. #9
    Registered User RIP260Z's Avatar
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    I agree Koalia, they are a bit dear
    RS30 June 1978 built 260Z (9th last)

    1965 Nissan Silvia (CSP311) the next restoration

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    But still... i wonder does anyone have extra 18-series Weber for sale...
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    I might be able to help you. I have several vintage 40DCOE-18s 'spare'.

    One of them might be a close enough match to the two you have. Tell me what the individual numbers on the covers are ( the 'No' on the pad underneath the 'Tipo' line ) and I'll see if I've got one that's near.

  12. #12
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Numbers are 15515 and 15391.

    CheerZ!
    Last edited by Reverend; 03-17-2013 at 10:42 PM.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    OK, I managed to find my box of used carbs, and I selected a single 40DCOE-18 that might be a good candidate.

    The manufacturing date is a little later than yours ( mine is no.27752 ) so it's not really a perfect match. However, theoretically any early 40DCOE-18 should match up with another early 40DCOE-18 as far as circuits and internals etc, so it should work.

    I'm away in Japan for a couple of weeks from tomorrow, so can't really do anything about this until I come back. Hope you can wait....
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    Koalia, you might try contacting Jeff Winter with Rallye-Sport in Westminster, CO. He is one of the best L-Series engine builders in the US and he might have a matching carb for you. Try emailing him at: rsport@qwestoffice.net or calling him at: 303-427-0510. If he does not have it he will know where to get it.

    Good luck!
    JTIII

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Thanks Alan! Im in no rush, im planning to drive with SU's this summer, or at least the beginning of it, cause getting all the jets etc etc is money eating process. Got to take this slowly so i can afford to buy butter to cover my bread Might a trade come in question? I have no use for that 149 series Weber.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Back from your trip yet Alan?
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm back. But very busy at the moment.....

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    No worries
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  19. #19
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Still looking for extra 18 series weber if anyone has one for sale (or giveaway lol)
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    I've still got the one I offered to you.

    You don't want that one...?

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    Yessir i do! I just tought you had forgotten Got to keep me channels open. Should we continue this via PM or here?
    Montezuma likes this.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Well i decieded to continue this old thread, as this kinda is about my good luck with carburators. I ordered a linkage set from pierce manifold, provided them pictures of my current setup and write up. First of all, the rod is way too long, i guess you can cut it shorter without ruining it. Secondly, rod ends are with wrong threading, does not fit the manifold. Thirdly, IF the rod would be cut to proper size, my linkage wouldnt work as the brake booster tube is on the way... Check the pics.

    What would you do? Im still learning, dont want to be spoon fed but some creative ideas would be nice.

    http://sdrv.ms/19zV7Uf

    http://sdrv.ms/19zV8HO

    http://sdrv.ms/1cChDJo
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Analysis:

    1. It looks like the vacuum line tap in the runner uses the same casting locations as the rod-ends that hold the linkage-rod.

    Solution 1. Try to fit or make a low profile 90degree fitting for the hose so that it is diverted at the manifold and does not interfere with the linkage

    Solution 2. Try to find another casting location on the manifold for drilling and tapping a new vacuum line fitting



    2. Sadly, from experience, the guys at Pierce are nice but not the brightest. They should have asked you about metric fittings as you are in Europe. Being in the states, most of their product line is not metric thus the size / thread differences.

    Solution 1. You should be able to source the metric components in Finland (ss linkage-rod, rod ends). Call a machine shop or engine rebuilding shop and talk to someone there. Here in Canada, I can buy the stock for linkage rod in most hardware stores....not SS but they have it...in imperial sizes though.

    Solution 2. Assemble your manifold and carbs, no linkage. Bring this and the stock linkage from the Z (noting distances from where that last shepherd hook sits relative to runner 1) along with photos of linkages and manifolds to a machine shop along with your heap of linkage parts and ask them to finish the assembly and supply any require parts to make it work.

    Looks like you are on the home stretch now! One more push and you will have it sorted!

    btw What manufacturer of manifold do you have?
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


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    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  25. #25
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    After thinking more about it there are two ways to go:
    1.

    Raise the height of the existing rod links and use a very long rod like the one below.

    Connect a lever on the end of the rod and connect to the bell crank on the fire wall.

    Once you get the long rod up higher, you will have room for the brake booster hose to connect.

    You will probably have to relocate the throttle arms on the carbs to the front side of the carb.



    2.
    Use a short rod like below and use a cable (not shown) to pull the rod
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    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  26. #26
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Got the carburetor linkage working and found proper 90-degree connector for brake booster. BUT i may have asked this before ( i couldnt find where):

    I need to find a easy to install / cheapish throttle cable. Linkage disaligns with the one in car, about 1.5 inch and the original rod does not bend that much. I will add picture later.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  27. #27
    '75 280z tamo3's Avatar
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    How about like this?
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    and throttle cable installation.
    CABLE_INSTALL
    '75/280z

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    Registered User TBone028's Avatar
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    Reverend, if you look under the tech publications and how-to section, you should see a parts list and write-up of how I did my throttle cable install on my Weber DCOE's. Hopefully it gives you some ideas on how you want to do yours.
    1972 240Z - 3.1L with some goodies
    1974 260Z - SOLD!

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    Yea ive read it. Lokar cable seems to be the only way, when speaking cheap wire throttle.

    So close but so far. I could perhaps try to fabricate a rod to suit my needs also, i just dont know where.




    You can see that small disalignment.

    Another thing that worries me is that the inlet manifold and header are different sizes. What i mean by that is that the header is thicker from where you tighten it to the head, that warps the big "washer" and i dont know is the inlet tight enough. I've put some lock washers before big one and hopefully it solves the problem...



    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Screwing up continues. I might as well use this thread. The oem linkage did not align with the setup so i tried to modify the oem throttle rod. With bad results of course. Found out a machine shop that modded my rod and it looks like this



    Looks good, except it does not work. The misalignment moves it to very weird positions, and its not working as predicted. It should be maybe located 1 inch to the left from original place. I've seen pictures of similar kinds of setup SOMEWHERE, but cant found out. Those who have similar(ish) setup please respond, how did you do it.

    CheerZ
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  31. #31
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Couple more shots


    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    I'm sure I posted this pic,
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    I had a bit more room to play with then you do. The ? looking hook that I used is very different than yours.
    The real problem you are facing is trying to correct for lack of alinement in 2 different axis, you may just have to bite the bullet and go with a cable.
    1970 240Z HLS30 01955 March/70

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Here is a weird idea that may work.

    Precisely weld a nut to the top of a bolt. (both Axis are 90 degrees to each other).

    The bolt would screw into the manifold to adjust the height.

    The nut on the top of the bolt would accept your existing heim joint for adjusting the main rod's location towards and away from the motor.

    You can weld fillets to the nut then grind for strength and beauty.

    This is inexpensive and lets you adjust up/down and in/out to get the rod aligned with the firewall end
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


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    For precision during the welding:

    The manifold should be used as a jig when welding. Thread the bolts into the manifold and adjust to the same height then place the nuts on a long threaded rod. Sit this on the bolts and adjust so that the nut-to-bolt is the same ..... then weld.
    Last edited by Blue; 02-14-2014 at 08:12 AM.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  35. #35
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    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  36. #36
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Okay, so I triedto start it without the linkage. Fuel started to move trough the lines nicely but I noticed a major leak on the regulator, so firstly I retigthtened it. Primed carbs couple of times manually cause no working linkage. Tried to start it but no luck on that. it makes funny "puff puff puff puff" noise, like a steam train but does not start. I wonder what I have done wrong
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Registered User grannyknot's Avatar
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    Are those puffs coming out of the tail pipe or the air horns?
    1970 240Z HLS30 01955 March/70

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    you may have to hold the linkage (throttle valves) open more when someone else cranks
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


  39. #39
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    When is the last time the engine ran? Puff-puff-puff while cranking might be an intake valve stuck open or an exhaust valve not opening. Or a leak at the manifolds. Are you sure everything is tight?
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Puffs are coming from the tailpipe. I got manifolds pretty tightly torqued. Yea, got to get a pair of hands for help. Car ran about 6 months ago (with SU's)
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    I did the adjustments by manual (idle speed and mixture screws) and managed to fire it up, yay! But it runs super rough, only like on 3 cylinders. When i rev it, it spits and coughs but fires up more cylinders. All in all, i dont really know is it the timing or badly tuned carbs
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    double check plug wire order
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

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  43. #43
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Plug wires are okay. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vw2pznsl2e...310_191707.mp4

    Im planning to reduce timing a bit and try again.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  44. #44
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    Works quite good now, idle is still quite rough. I do have unisyn tool but its not accurate enough, it seems. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdavlotzfp...315_125936.mp4

    Weirdest thing: i have some sort of liquid coming from the exhaust.. its clear and quite tasteless. Not fuel. I got scared and opened the oil pan, but luckily only oil came out. My car has been in quite cold garage trough the winter and fuel is over 6 months old, i wonder is it possible that water has been condensed in to tank and now pouring out the exhaust?
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Water is a product of petroleum combustion. It's normal. Normally it would stay in vapor phase but your cold exhaust system is causing it to condense to liquid, and drip out the tail pipe.
    Captain_Zeros likes this.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    Good to know, never has it happened before so thats why i spooked. Let the adventure continue then!
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Reverend, so what did you do the match up the triples to the stock throttle linkage?
    1970 240Z HLS30 01955 March/70

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    I still havent them matched up. Im looking for parts locally so i could do THIS:
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    I know where to get them balljoints but the rest of the parts i need....
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

  49. #49
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    Timing is set up to about 12 degrees, runs quite okay on idle BUT i have major problem. Its leaking coolant from somewhere. Coolant drops from the lowest point of transmission (bell housing). I looked both block drain screw and heater hose outlet, but both seemed okay... im very confused right now.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Check between the head and the block right above the starter at the back of the engine. My last engine leaked there, from the headgasket, and dripped down the back of the engine. There's also a core plug in the back of the head that you can check.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    Registered User z boy mn's Avatar
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    Hey Reverend, I want to chime in here as the photo a few posts back (#48) is from my engine bay...and I stripped it off the car this year as it was binding up. :-(

    What you see there is how I modified the firewall bracket to make a "repeater" of sorts, but there was so much slop that it never hooked up correctly and the rubber washer/o-ring in the stock firewall assembly didn't let it rotate smoothly, so it would stick. Plus, there was so much side tension that both the repeater on the firewall and the bar on the carbs would deflect a lot when you stepped on the gas. The car originally had the repeater assembly with a long rod that attached to a bracket on the closest carb cover, but that didn't work well either.

    My solution this year (untested yet as it's still COLD in MN) was to eliminate that middle piece, put a heim joint in one of the arms on the carb rod to account for the misalignment, and make new connecting rod that goes from the pedal all the way to the bar (it was about 11"). I did lots of figuring, and my mock-up worked great...but, no real-world testing yet. I do have some photos on my other computer I should be able to find if that would help.

    So, if this helps, don't do what I did (or maybe you could try it but do it better somehow).

    My next solution was to just switch to cable. Top Performance had a cable kit for about $100, I think.
    Last edited by z boy mn; 03-23-2014 at 06:04 AM.
    Current Z: 1971 Datsun 240Z, 3.1 Stroker (F54 block, P90 head, 490-290 cam, triple Webers); 95% complete
    First Z: 1972 240Z, destroyed in a shipping accident. Ack!

  52. #52
    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Yea, pictures would be awesome! Meanwhile i have WAY bigger problems ahead. As i said before, my engine is leaking coolant from somewhere. Engine drain plug is dry as sahara and i checked that the head bolts were at correct torque. Then i realized something. There is water plug (or whatever it is called, those 8+1 plugs that are around the engine) just over flywheel at transmission side. I squeezed the lower water hose to get some pressure on the system and a fountain of water started to drip from the bell housing... There is high (100%) possibility that the water plug is leaking... SO i have to take the engine/tranny off to fix this problem...
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Registered User z boy mn's Avatar
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    I just found a picture of the test bracket I made to make sure everything lined up smoothly and the carbs opened all the way. A simple fix. Since then, I made a custom rod that has a heim joint at one end (carb arm) and hooks to the pedal assembly on the other. Hope this helps! (P.S. No idea on the coolant leak...good luck with that!)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Current Z: 1971 Datsun 240Z, 3.1 Stroker (F54 block, P90 head, 490-290 cam, triple Webers); 95% complete
    First Z: 1972 240Z, destroyed in a shipping accident. Ack!

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Looks simple enough to me to make And it works properly? I think less the parts, the better it works.

    This is not carb related, but is core plug failure common to happen on Z's? Mine is from CA and i suspect it has been run with very minimal amount of anti-freeze (wich has anti-corrosion materials). Im going to try to replace the plug by removing only tranny and accessories....
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Hi Reverend, I can't guarantee it works just yet, but I think it will. It sure looks a lot clearer without that extra piece, and everything feels really smooth. Of course, we still have 2 feet of snow on the ground, so I won't know for sure for another month...or two...when the roads clear. :-(
    Current Z: 1971 Datsun 240Z, 3.1 Stroker (F54 block, P90 head, 490-290 cam, triple Webers); 95% complete
    First Z: 1972 240Z, destroyed in a shipping accident. Ack!

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    Reverend, if that rear freeze plug is leaking coolant because of a corrosion issue you might want to replace them all while your at it. Sorry, I'm sure you don't want to hear that.
    1970 240Z HLS30 01955 March/70

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Yea, i might change them all, i have to start from somewhere. Thank god the rest of them are 800% easier to replace. So far so they all look good and does not drip or sweat...so time will tell. It has been most warmest winter of this decade, snow has melted from all over the country, as normally there is at least 2 feet. I dont mind at all... haha. This is my solution to the carb linkage, so far it works good but as the long rod over the manifold does not have support at the end part, it bends a little, not much, just enough you notice.

    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Seems like i need to make more modifications, linkage works but its stiff as hell (at the pedal) and wont pass inspection as it is now. Carbs works...okay-ish. You can accelerate without any hesitation but cruising steadily 2-3K rpms..that aint working. It spits and stutters while holding your foot steady.. too little idle jet?


    Oh yea, i managed to change the freeze plug. It was nice 8 hour 2 man job... Well at least i got to introduce the world of Z's to my friend who now is all Datsun
    Last edited by Reverend; 04-08-2014 at 12:01 AM.
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    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Carbs are synced now and idle jets are 2.5 turns open (50F9) but it still spits while cruising. Taking the car for tuning soon, hopefully that solves it.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Hey Reverend, just an update on my end. I'm putting together the carb assembly I talked about and you tried, and I think I figured out a way to keep the bar from deflecting. I'm using another bracket that comes off the valve cover to negate the tendency of the rod to pull away from the motor. I'm using heim joints and some threaded rod. I'll have a photo when I put it all together. Good luck with your tune-up in the meantime!
    Current Z: 1971 Datsun 240Z, 3.1 Stroker (F54 block, P90 head, 490-290 cam, triple Webers); 95% complete
    First Z: 1972 240Z, destroyed in a shipping accident. Ack!

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    Exactly my toughts!! I was thinking of putting exactly the same thing to get rid of the bending! I managed to get that pedal feel a bit more softer by modifying the assembly, i gotta take pic to show. Its still quite stiff but way better than it used to.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Here's a couple photos of what I did. I can't road test it yet, but it works really smoothly. 10mm rod ends and threaded rod, plus an aluminum nut I made and welded to the valve cover. VERY smooth now, and no flexing / binding / bending. Yay! Click image for larger version. 

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    Current Z: 1971 Datsun 240Z, 3.1 Stroker (F54 block, P90 head, 490-290 cam, triple Webers); 95% complete
    First Z: 1972 240Z, destroyed in a shipping accident. Ack!

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    Formerly known as Koalia Reverend's Avatar
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    WOW. That looks cool, any stifness on pedal movement?
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    It's still not on the road (it's snowing right now) so I can't offer a real road test perspective, but from the garage the pedal feels great. Sorry the pictures aren't all that clear, but I think you can get the idea. (I also replaced those plastic bushings in the manifold to remove any slop there, too. They were hard to find, but seemed to have made a difference.)

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    Wow, still snowing? Weather has gone all loco, here near arctic its warm and cozy. Have you tried to press "pedal to the metal", does it open throttle all the way or too much or is it adjusted just fine? I think i have a bit too short rod and it might "over open" if pressed to bottom.
    Last edited by Reverend; 04-25-2014 at 03:00 AM.
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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    Feels like it's just right. Carbs bottom out just before pedal does, but I like it that way. Still no road tests, but the snow didn't stick so that's something. I'm not sure how they could "over open" ...doesn't that just mean you'd jump to warp speed? ;-)
    Current Z: 1971 Datsun 240Z, 3.1 Stroker (F54 block, P90 head, 490-290 cam, triple Webers); 95% complete
    First Z: 1972 240Z, destroyed in a shipping accident. Ack!

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    Zboy, no, they can't "over open" but if your carb butterflies are bottoming out before the gas pedal is then you are stressing it and the linkage which means that metal is wearing and possibly bending. I only bring this up because while our cars are down and we can't use them we have the whole winter to make them perfect, so now would be the time to match the gas pedal stop to the butterfies being fully open. In the situation you describe with your carbs, it won't be the brass butterfies that wear but the aluminum bore they are pushed against as well as the aluminum that the butterfly shaft rides on.
    That will in time create air leaks and un-metered air will screwup the mixture.
    In the short term it is not a big deal but matching up the gas pedal stop with the butterflies isn't hard to do.
    Chris
    Last edited by grannyknot; 04-25-2014 at 04:29 PM.
    1970 240Z HLS30 01955 March/70

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    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xdyfj14tc...427_151327.mp4

    There is my Z (not me testing it) and got lousy 130hps on dyno. Well.. it only has triples and header so thats not a big surprise. Maybe a mild cam next? Anyway, carburators are now tuned and it runs very smoothly
    -72 240Z "Goldie"

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