body strengthening

[khughes]

sorry to go into this again but i just recieved an email from stewart Wilkins after i asked them about strengthening up the 240k.

Basically he stated that the 240k body is already very strong, and doesn't need stitch welding along the suspension towers. He did recommend a roll cage (which we all expected) and a front strut brace.

He said that if there was a weakness, it could be that the layers in the chassis rails may seperate, so that if the bottom seam was fused together it would enormously increase it's strength.

now i am not 100% sure where he is talking about, can anyone give me a clue?

I was looking at the rails in the engine bay (right under the firewall) on the weekend (finally finished stripping!), i noticed that the welds between the top of the engine frame rail and the firewall wasn't that crash hot (leaving fairly large holes, but this could just be cosmetic).

Don't suppose anybody knows where a strut brace can be bought? (SWR was over $300 for an adjustable) if anybody has some influence, maybe we can get a few of us together for a good price?

[aarc240]

Have a look at the frame rail from below and you will see a vertical edge.

If you have a factory manual, go to section 'Body and Frame', 'General Description' and there is a detailed line drawing of the body. Fig BF-1 for sedan, BF-2 for hardtop.

Section D-D is the relevant view. The bottom of this could be welded or 'fused' to increase the strength but I've yet to see a car that needed it, even after extensive use on VERY rough dirt roads in Central Australia.

The price for the strut bar is within reason given the labour involved in making the part. I sure wouldn't do another for any less!

The roll cage might be good for strength but keep in mind that as soon as you install one then the car can only be registered as a limited use dedicated rally car.
That unfortunately is a fact of life throughout Australia now under the National Code Of Practice unless you are prepared for the expense of type approving the car (and therefore any other with the same body) with a specific design of cage installed.

What sort of 'large holes' remain?

[khughes]

Thanks, that explains it well, and certainly it saves me the trouble doing it then!

you scared me there for a second, as i have a 1/2 cage installed (i was assured it would be okay since my car will be registered as a 2 seater now). I checked the NCOP and a 1/2 roll cage is acceptable(as long as it doesn't go forward of the front seats)

I know it isn't as strong as a 6 pt, but atleast it should give some side to side bracing, My cage isn't attached to the roof where the B pillar would be.. not sure if any are.. but i would assume that in extreme circumstances some flex could occur here?

not the greatest photo.. but you can sort of see the hole i am referring to

[Mat Big Hat]

kent, is going to be a dedicated track car? the reason i ask is that the absence of a b pillar may be the weak link in chassis rigidity. perhaps the cage will compensate to a degree, but there's going to be some twist depending on how much you thrash it

[aarc240]

Technically it's a roll bar with rear support legs, which is how it's viewed in NCOP documentation.

We use a similar setup but include brackets welded to the body sides and to the roof rails.
By positioning/shaping the rear legs to stay out of the rear seat occupant safety zones you can retain the 5 seat certification when lap/sash belts are installed in the front
Remove the rear seat when using harnesses to comply with the law.

Those holes are interesting!
Our earlier hardtop doesn't have them so unless they are obviously blow-throughs from welding I would suspect that Nissan changed that area to comply with crash testing.
Be careful with reinforcements - you will likely need to talk to your engineer as any changes there are going to need a good deal of thought to ensure crash loads are distributed properly. Or at least in a manner that Transport will accept.

[khughes]

It won't be a dedicated track car, mostly a weekend cruiser with a fair bit of fun on the track (maybe 2x a month).

The Car is a 7/74 model, so i am surprised if this was a structural change that early on in the cars life (though i guess anything is possible). I don't remember if the other side is the same, maybe it is as you say, a defect in welding, it certainly isn't that clean a weld. Has anyone got a later model car they can check this area for me?

Talking about crash loads, is it easy to get reinforcement bars installed in the doors and the dash area? i know this was a requirement for import cars if they did not already have them, but how easy would it be to get these put in. Hopefully it would never be needed, but if you do get hit side on, it would be nice to have a little protection (certianly worth the money for my life!).

[aarc240]

Not too hard in the doors, basically a 'hat' section with the flanges against the skin and 'ears' at each end which are either welded or rivetted to the front and rear of the inner door shell. I use 1.5mm thick C1030 bright rolled steel sheet to make them.
Lot's easier with the skin off but doable, just takes a bit of wiggling and swearing to get them in position.
They need to be reasonably close to the door latch mechanism (not the exterior handle) and work better with the later 'bear claw' latches.

Dash area, I really can't see much advantage.
However if you are referring to the A pillars being pushed in then that may be worthwhile although a lot of work.
Only way I can see would be to lift out the dash shell, add folded/formed sheet steel sections inside the bottom edge and some decent folded sheet steel corner braces / mounts from each end of the shell to the A pillar.

That way a side impact pushing the A pillar in would dump some of the load into the now strengthened lower edge of the shell. Take more to bend the shell so more energy would be dissapated in doing that rather than pushing the A pillar into the space your legs need.

The doors sound like a pretty smart move which I hadn't considered even after done them for compliancing grey imports.
Most all the mods on ours have been the old story - less weight more speed and bugger the consequences.

[aarc240]

Forgot a couple of minor points.

Make the hat section as deep as will clear everything inside the door. A length of rectangular timber makes a good test gauge for clearance.
35 to 50mm wide plus the flanges is pretty good.

Put a curve in them to get a close match to the skin shape and dab plenty of bitumen body sealer into the resulting gap after installing.
No sealer and they will drive you crazy when the skin and bar start vibrating against each other.

[Noddle]

Don't suppose anybody knows where a strut brace can be bought? (SWR was over $300 for an adjustable) if anybody has some influence, maybe we can get a few of us together for a good price?

Are you a Handy Man, have access to a workshop, welder, oxy etc..?

why not make one your self ?

I was looking into making one, done some rough drawings to get an idea what I needed, This may give you an idea on how to make one

Nigel

[khughes]

I wish i was!! it would make things 1000x easier!

[240kconvertible]

I'm very close to getting a strut brace made up custom by the engineer doing the hard yards to my K, maybe we should get together and have a bulk batch made up???
I will be getting one custom made regardless of what happens as I really need it (no surprise here) and can't be bothered doing it myself. I will post a price my engineer (cobra craft) gives to me for the strut brace shortly.

My vert should have been in the engineers shop by now but as they have been really busy catching up to the new year and I haven't finished all the welding that needs doing before it is finally ready it is booked in for the end of Feb. Fingers and toes crossed by everyone who reads this that it goes in in time.

If I could produce a propper weld I'm sure it would have been finished at the engineers by now, but the truth is I can't weld for ****..........if I wasn't scared of being payed out for the next few years I would post pohoto's of the welds I produce, but thats not going to happen so lets just forget about it

P.s I have an oxy welder in my garage (190 amp) that we can use but I don't really know how.

[Noddle]

I'm very close to getting a strut brace made up custom by the engineer doing the hard yards to my K, maybe we should get together and have a bulk batch made up???

Did the engineer create any drawing, ie Auto CAD .DWG files that I may be able to get my hands on ?

Nigel

[240kconvertible]

He hasn't started on it yet as he has to get the engine fitted first before doing it. It will probably be done early next month, I'm not sure how it will be designed but if I can help you in any way with drawings or designs I will definitely send them to you.

I'll keep you updated as it goes along Nigel.

Andrew

[khughes]

what sort of shape is he making it out of? i would be interested in getting one made up at the same time if it is out of the flat type bar, with as much clearence from the engine as possible (ie. close to the bonnet, if i need to get measurements, i may need some time to put the engine back in etc..), anyways.. keep me in the loop

[khughes]

here is a better photo of the rails (without the paint), it looks like you are right, seems to be built that way to absorb an accident?

and yes.. after stripping the car, i found a lot more rust than i had hoped the worse being the drivers floorpan (as you can see), above the air con box, around the top of the front and rear wind frames, and both sides between the door frames and the wheel arches..

[aarc240]

Remember to stuff some 'mastic' type sealer in the holes after painting. That stops water travelling into the frame rails. You can paint over the mastic afterwards to tidy the appearance.
Don't use silicone - it won't remain stuck to the body and will eventually allow water to seep in. The same problem occurs with windows, windshields etc because silicone rubber (RTV) doesn't like staying stuck in areas that are flexing or vibrating.

[matt240K]

sorry i just noticed this thread now. I don;t come here much.

I have a 240K rally car, which has been strengthened exensively as follows:

1. strut towers. I have had the spot welds come apart before. I stitch them then plate the top with 3 mm plate.
2. chassis rails. stick to the fire wall. (dunno if it reallyhelps much TBH). But the biggest prob with the rails is crushing where the steering members bolt on. I plated both sides, and some cars need tubes welded into the rails. (some already have them)
3. strut brace. a peice of 6mm tongue welded to the reinforing plates on the strut towers. then bot a 30mmRHS tube assy on. why does it need to be adustable?
4.

[matt240K]

oops. shouldn't have used the quick reply for a long post

4. roll cage. I have a fully integrated cage right through to the strut towers. it's tagged or welded in about 38 places. . its got cross members under the dash, triangulated door bars, rear diagonals, and rear floor cross members. that changes everything. depends on what you do with the car as to whether you want all that. I can guarantee you'll notice the difference in handling the day you put the door bars in though.

5. the wekest point of a K is not the body. its the rear suspension. I've plated the trailing arms, and also extensively re-inforced the rear cross member. the reason for this is that when they bottom out, the trailing arms y snap. once you strengthen them, the cross member starts flexing. when you build it all liek a fortress it stops breaking.

[240kconvertible]

Did you get your body dipped Kent? The floor looks nasty, like my sills were.

My vert still hasn't gone to the engineer (and no closer to getting a strut brace). He kept promising it would go in in the next fortnight until after 5 months I gave him the arse. Don't anyone ever go to Cobra Craft engineering Ken is full of ****.

I ended up booking it into Stewart wilkins motorsport following your lead for around the start of July. It will cost a bit more I think, but at least it should get done this year. I'm also glad to say that there is no more rust or rust holes left unwelded anywhere on the shell and it is all in primer with 2 coats of por 15 over everything.

[khughes]

Matt, some great info there, thanks for posting it! i would have loved to get the full cage done, but at the time it was too $$$ and would have caused issues for me in road registration.. there is always the option later on though

Hey Andrew,

to be honest i have done nothing on the car for a long while, since all that striping and poring i did a little while ago.. i have had other priorities unfortunately.. i have been meaning to get a hold of you though to borrow your body deadening spray gun to get down into the rails with the POR.. no hurry though..

time for me to start saving to get the rust spots + priming done professionally (then POR'ing again of course), then comes the painting, then comes putting everything back in(and hopefully it will all go back in!).

[240kconvertible]

If you'd like I can post the gun out to you or if your in Maroubra sometime you could come and pick it up and check out the vert.

The really good gun with the long snout was stuffed by me so I had to replace it with a $24 dorrra job from supercheap (china) auto. It works quite well though and I even ended up spraying primer out of it as I couldn't get the industrial boat high fill primer to go through my normal primer gun. It will spray up into all of the rails fine and can even be used to spray the marine clean and metal ready.

I used it and a garden hose to clean the rear rails out of dirt. Can't beat high pressure water.

Seems like we have both been slack for a while. I was hoping to have mine on the road by end of financial. Did you get your body dipped or do it all your self? I ended up getting all the panels except 1 guard dipped. Made it soooo much easier.

[khughes]

do you know what the thing was called? the only thing i could find remotely similar was an air attachment engine spray gun thingy.. is that what you have?

I ended up choosing the long and cheap path of using paint stripper, a scraper and a hell of a lot of effort, i then just painted it (after cleaning, metal readying etc.) with a paintbrush () and used a HPLV touch up gun to try and get into the inside of the doors etc..

i am hoping to get some time on saturdaty to finally pull the timing belt off the RB25 and fit a new water pump to it.. i have been meaning to do that for well over a year now..

[240kconvertible]

I think it was called a engine degreaser gun but can't be 100% sure. It's a cheapie but does the job.

http://www.wurth.com.au/MetalMar07SpecWeb.pdf check about one third of the way down the page. What you want is one like this but with the longer snout. I tried to extend one with tube but it didn't work at all. I found that you had to put it on it's smallest level of spray and then do a bit of each rail at a time to avoid pools building up.

Timing belts are so much fun, I just did the head on a cressida and put the front cam seals on backwards. I didn't notice until a drive out to picton to go skydiving, when we arrived smoke was coming from under the bonnet. The seals have since been put on the right way. I guess this is what happens when amatuers do a mechanics job

How much power at the wheels you aiming for Kent??

[khughes]

yeah i just hope i don't discover too many shoddy "repairs" when i goto try and start the car for it's first time

that is why i am not going to even touch the suspension or brakes on the car now.. an engine that does not start i can live with

not really aiming for anything in particular to start with, though long term with the help of a GT30R turbo and possibly an RB30 block.. 300kw? but first.. it has to get on the road!

[240kconvertible]

I'm aiming for the same amount, shouldn't be too hard to get. I expect we'll be doing high 12's to low 13's with that kinda power.

I sold an RB30 block recently for $200 the bastard only wanted the block so I still have the head ecu gearbox etc etc in my garage.

The vert is now booked in for early september with SWR to get the engineering side of things done so hopefully should get on the road for summernats next year.

[khughes]

that is good to know they do engineering there (i guess that solves my who should engineer the car question).. did they give you an idea on price of engineering? pm me if you don't want to discuss publically..

hehe.. do you want a spare RB30 head then? (in all seriousness i think it is time for a rubbish dump run)

[240kconvertible]

Heh heh I know it's due for the bin but there are so many other things that should go with the head that I can't be bothered starting. There are 2 engines to get rid of, 1 x gearbox, 4 x lancer mags, assorted hilux parts, truck petrol tank, assorted rb30 parts and 7 rims & tyres. I really should list it on ebay with $0.01 cent reserve and get some other sucker to pick it up.

In regards to the engineering I don't really have a price for certain yet, Trent didn't even want to start on it for a while due to other commitments, these being 3 x 180b rally specials and 1 x 240z rally special for a rally in Kenya. The job has grown quite a bit from my inital 3k quote from the original engineer who fuc&*d me around.
I emailed them a list (check below) of what I want done and a price I'm happy to pay and they didn't seem scared and we're willing to take on the job. Although nothing is in writing and the start date is still a while away.

List of Mods I offered $5500 to complete

(1) fitment of 300zx rear cradle, diff, suspension and brakes.
The rear arches will need to be widened, and holes cut out for the shocks + mounting points as well as 4 new mounting points fabricated for the cradle & tail shaft connected.

(2) fitment of R31 front crossmember, suspension, rack & pinion steering.
The steering would need to be connected - column to rack, crossmember & suspension made to fit

(3) fitment of engine and gearbox
Mounts would need to be made for both. The front firewall and tunnel will need to be cut to allow room for the gearbox bellhousing. I would like the front cylinder of the V8 to be in line with the front axle line. I have placed a bare block inside the engine bay and it appears that it will fit quite nicely.

(4) A pillar to B pillar support bar fabricated

(5) Brake booster master cylinder & lines + upgrade to hoppers style kit for front end.

As you can see there is a heap of work to be completed and SWR has asked for 2 months to complete it. Summernats is now off the cards for another year sadly. When it's completed I'm going to ask Alfa for verfication on weather or not it is the most modded C110 around I'm quietly confident he won't be able to find one with more mods

[khughes]

wow.. i would be hugely impressed if they could pull that off for what you want to pay!

i got them to do fitting of R34 front calipers and disks, fit camber plates, supply and fit front shock inserts, fabricate gearbox mount, fit DR30 brake booster, fabricate driveshaft, R200 moustache bar and bushes, fit 260Z rear stubs/half shafts, supply and fit rear disks ($2500 alone), fabricate 1/2 roll cage.. i think that was it.. but it came to double what you are looking at..

i was happy to pay it, they do great work, but it certianly was a rude shock when i found out how much i had to fork over, it was around $3k more than i had expected.. but then again you pay for what you get

i still need to get my R200 diff fixed, get larger driveline bolts installed, and have the driveshaft binding issue fixed.. but i know when i book it back into them i may get carried away again and spend a fortune

[240kconvertible]

So would I

You should have put a whole rear cradle into yours as Trent agreed that $1500 would be enough for fitment of the cradle without brakes connected. I get the feeling he didn't take into account the arch flaring though. I'll probably end up doing the flaring of the rear guards myself and also the A - B pillar supports to save costs.

I think that when they see the car for the first time and we discuss all the mods the price may vary. $2500 sounds a bit steep for rear disc upgrade though.

The cheapest way to get it all done is to go to a welder/boiler maker and then get an engineer to sign off on it all. I wasn't happy to go this route because of the risk of not having the wheels in the right position. You'd be surprised at how cheap this route is.

Do you know what they were charging you an hour? The price you've mentioned seems a bit high for the work you've had carried out. For example you can get 2 tailshafts cut and welded together & balanced from $250 in sydney and Hoppers bolt up kits from $1100 for brakes, at least I know that your happy with the finished result and I can go to sleep knowing my wheels will be aligned properly. . . . . . . . . I'll start preparing for a rude shock

[khughes]

the 1/2 cage was about $1250 from memory, the brake setup on the rear was a kit thing that they do, using falcon disks and commodore calipers with the banksia brake.. the tailshaft was around $900 i think for a custom 1 piece balanced etc. um.. i think the front shocks cost me came in at under 1k (it wasn't a straight forward replacement).. i think the rear moustache bar was around $300 or so.. the rest was for labour and bits and bobs.. i can't remember the labour charges, but i have a reciept somewhere...

fitment of the rear cradle will be interesting, can't wait to see it done.

[240kconvertible]

The tailshaft sounds like a nice little bit of equipment. I would be interested to find out what they charged you an hour for all that work.

It will be nice to get the engineering stage completed as I've been waiting for 4 months already. The 300zx cradle is a lot wider than the standard one and I'm having trouble deciding weather or not to put the plastic flares on or flare the steel in the arches to accomodate the new cradle. What do you think?

I was leaning away from the flares as the front wheels won't stick out as far as the rear ones will when the new suspension goes in and I get the feeling they won't fill the flares at the front without spacers.

[Noddle]

Are you a Handy Man, have access to a workshop, welder, oxy etc..?

why not make one your self ?

I was looking into making one, done some rough drawings to get an idea what I needed, This may give you an idea on how to make one

Nigel

Sorry for dragging up and old thread, but I'm been slowing making my strut brace,
I had these laser cut out of 6mm mild steel, I think its a bit thick, but not seeing one in the flesh, I'm not sure of the correct thickness,
these cost me $25, pretty good I though.
I have a .DWG (Auto Cad) drawing if any one wants it.
Nigel

[Requiemk]

All i don't see any problem in bringing up old threads in this forum. Yes please would love a cad of that AM not to sure on if its thick but if its already made up no point changing, thickness wont affect anything in my point of view.

[Noddle]

.DWG file.

[Mastadd240K]

Thanks noddle that will come inhandy!

[Noddle]

3. strut brace. a peice of 6mm tongue welded to the reinforing plates on the strut towers. then bot a 30mmRHS tube assy on. why does it need to be adustable?

I had always though of making it adjustable, with left and right hand threaded bar, but after reading what matt240K said, I'm going to put it together on the car and weld the main cross brace, the picture show its better than I have explained it.
also I decided that 6 mm was to thick, so I ask my brother to "spin" it down to 4.5mm on his lathe.

Nigel

[240kconvertible]

Good work Nigel,

I'll get one of those made up for sure.

[Noddle]

Hi,

I'm still working on my brace, at last the weather is good enough to work outside.

more pictures here

http://noddle.110mb.com/Strut%20Brace/index.html

Nigel

[240kconvertible]

I'm impressed with the amount of work you have done yourself Nigel, and you have the same brand welder as me yours is a little bit more powerful though, did you buy it on ebay?

I'll be using your cad drawings shortly thats for sure.

[240kconvertible]

List of Mods I offered $5500 to complete

(1) fitment of 300zx rear cradle, diff, suspension and brakes.
The rear arches will need to be widened, and holes cut out for the shocks + mounting points as well as 4 new mounting points fabricated for the cradle & tail shaft connected.

(2) fitment of R31 front crossmember, suspension, rack & pinion steering.
The steering would need to be connected - column to rack, crossmember & suspension made to fit

(3) fitment of engine and gearbox
Mounts would need to be made for both. The front firewall and tunnel will need to be cut to allow room for the gearbox bellhousing. I would like the front cylinder of the V8 to be in line with the front axle line. I have placed a bare block inside the engine bay and it appears that it will fit quite nicely.

(4) A pillar to B pillar support bar fabricated

(5) Brake booster master cylinder & lines + upgrade to hoppers style kit for front end.

As you can see there is a heap of work to be completed and SWR has asked for 2 months to complete it. Summernats is now off the cards for another year sadly. When it's completed I'm going to ask Alfa for verfication on weather or not it is the most modded C110 around I'm quietly confident he won't be able to find one with more mods

Just for the record i paid twice that, Summernats is still off the cards for another year and Alfa never did show me a more modified K out there

[khughes]

Just for the record i paid twice that, Summernats is still off the cards for another year and Alfa never did show me a more modified K out there

Haha.. after a statement like that i feel the urge to tub the car

[Noddle]

I'm impressed with the amount of work you have done yourself Nigel, and you have the same brand welder as me yours is a little bit more powerful though, did you buy it on ebay?

I'll be using your cad drawings shortly thats for sure.

Yes, a ebay welder ($365 + freight),

I wanted something that I could use with gas / gasles wire, and had some control over amperage / wire feed, most of the cheap ones were hi / lo and that was it.

as i have said before, I enjoy working on my car, and I like to be able to say, I did it my self..

Nigel

[240kconvertible]

Haha.. after a statement like that i feel the urge to tub the car

I'd love to see a tubbed K, can anyone photoshop it up?

You'll probably need to get yours tubbed after you turn the boost up and get sick of wheelspining all the time Kent

[khughes]

haha.. my car is almost tubbed.. rust wise (ok.. i joke!)..

i have to keep telling myself.. i believe in IRS.. i believe in IRS...

[240kconvertible]

haha,

Like the little train going up the hill...i think I can get traction, i think i can get traction

If single swing arm irs is good for holdens and fords with 550nm it should be ok for the K, you'll just need to get some really stiff springs, perhaps some that were made in the viagra factory.

[Noddle]

Another project finally finished, (to many to name),

http://noddle.110mb.com/Strut%20Brace/index.html

Nigel

[khughes]

looks great!

[soopakarr]

sorry if it's been mentioned but for a strut brace....

S13 silvia brace and all u need to do is 180 the strut top plates (cut and weld) and thanks to the import streetcar scene those braces are cheap and reddily available