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Thread: Rear Spoiler

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    Supporting Member Diseazd's Avatar
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    Default Rear Spoiler

    I'm thinking about putting a rear BRE spoiler on my 71 resto. I don't know anything about how they are attached etc. Are they bolted on to the tailgate and if so what keeps water from entering the bolt holes and rusting the metal? Do you think the juice is worth the squeeze? I like the look!
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    I don't know for sure, but I was told I had a BRE spoiler on mine before I bought it. I was told by a person on this board that saw my car, another from someone at a Z-Car show I went to.

    Apparently they could tell by the bolt holes drilled into the rear hatch - so it's an assumption that it is, in fact, bolted. Since I don't have the spoiler, I don't know how water was prevented from getting in...sorry
    '72 240Z HLS30-73667 (sold)
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    Mine bolted to the tail gate - on the outside edges, where the decklid closes over the water drain area - and as I recall, two holes in the deck lid itself - just above the rubber plugs in the lower edge. Water runs in the areas anyway...

    With the BRE style Spook and Spoiler the Z is much more stable at highway speeds. The rear spoiler also seems to reduce the intrusion of exhaust gases into the cabin. I've had mine on since 72, and so far there hasn't been a problem with rust. I coated the studs in the spook with RTV before bolting the spoiler on...

    I also have another 72, with only the front Spook.. for the most part it is used to cruise longer highway trips at 75/80 mph. It is fine, but I do notice when passing large trucks, or driving in heavy cross winds, that it isn't quite as "locked down" as the Z with both.

    Adding the front Spook without the rear spoiler - actually increases lift at the rear, even though it greatly increases down force on the front. If you like the look, I'd say add them both.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Last edited by Carl Beck; 10-31-2008 at 06:26 AM.

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    My vote is for both spoilers. I wish I could do something to prevent the exhaust gasses from coming in through the truck of my 510 Kills me when the windows are rolled down as it seems to create a vacuum

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    If you like the look, I'd say to do it. I'm quite certain that once you have one in hand that you'll be able to figure a way to seal the holes. And as Carl noted, the benefits are fairly well documented.

    I thought about adding one to mine when I painted it, but decided that while I do like the BRE rear spoilers, I still prefer the look of the rear end of a Z without. But that's totally personal.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    This is the backside of an original BRE rear spoiler. It's just as Carl describes with two mounting studs on the outside edges of each side that correspond with the drainage channel and another further inboard on each side, that were cut off and not used on this one. I would use only the outer mounting studs and perhaps a good adhesive on the inboard locations.

    PS - I have been considering using rare earth magnets instead of adhesive on the inboard mounting points.
    Last edited by geezer; 02-14-2011 at 09:50 PM.

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    Registered User 240ZGL's Avatar
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    I have a 432 rear spoiler, there are 4 mounting bolts that go right thru the skin on the hatch.
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    I have the MSA rear spoiler. It also requires drilling holes in the top of the tailgate to mount it down.

    Fit is good, but I'm not happy with the open cell foam gasket they have on it. I'll be replacing it down the road with closed cell neoprene.
    Julio
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    geezer,

    My dad and I are having a debate regarding the exterior appearance of the spoiler you posted. I recall that spoiler having a raised or indented section along the right side which looks like it is for an emblem. Is that right or am I thinking of another spoiler i.e. the 432?

    I know that Eiji's orange G nose car has the rear spoiler I am referring to.
    Last edited by five&dime; 10-31-2008 at 08:38 AM.

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    The original BRE spoiler is the same as the 432 spoiler. Peter Brock used the 432 spoiler on the BRE 240Z's. There is a flat section on the back for an emblem should you desire to install one.

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    By flat section do you mean a small flat section only wide enough for an emblem not the whole width of the spoiler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Z View Post
    My vote is for both spoilers. I wish I could do something to prevent the exhaust gasses from coming in through the truck of my 510 Kills me when the windows are rolled down as it seems to create a vacuum
    It creates a lower pressure area inside the car, "relative" to the higher pressure area outside the trunk lid/tail lights. You have to make sure your trunk lid seals are working, seal all area's around the tail lights and make sure the seam sealers in the body haven't dried out and cracked. Past that point you have to have the tail pipe extend at least 1.5 to 2 inches past the end of the bumper.

    Take a strip of cloth about 3" wide by 12" long. Place it over the trunk lid seals and close the trunk lid on it. Then see how much pressure it takes to pull it out. If it pulls out easily, either your seals are shot, or your trunk lid is adjusted incorrectly. Over the years trunk lids can also get warped, and fail to mate properly on top of the seal. Try that test at several places around the seal.

    It's pretty much the same on the Z's. On the Z's the rear spoiler moves the higher pressure area behind the car farther back, away from the tail lights.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter View Post
    The original BRE spoiler is the same as the 432 spoiler. Peter Brock used the 432 spoiler on the BRE 240Z's. There is a flat section on the back for an emblem should you desire to install one.
    Hi Ron:
    I think it might be less confusing to say;

    "Peter Brock originally used the Nissan rear spoiler on his C-Production 240-Z's"

    Then later BRE produced their own version locally. The BRE version did not have the flat spot for mounting the rear deck lid emblems, nor did it have the two molded reinforcing ribs seen on the front of the Nissan spoiler. See image below. The Nissan spoiler had a steeper rake as well.

    Today, Les at Classic Motorsports has reproductions of the Nissan rear spoiler. He may also carry the original BRE style.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
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    Last edited by Carl Beck; 10-31-2008 at 09:35 AM.

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Hi Car & Zero,

    Carl, you are correct, the spoiler on the C-Production BRE 240Z was a 432 spoiler. The spoiler that BRE sold as a "BRE" Spoiler could have been different. Les Cannaday sells the 432 spoiler as a "BRE" spoiler and a 432 spoiler.

    Zero, the spoiler has a flat section that is around 12" to 15" on the passenger side rear of the car. If you look in my gallery you will see photos of the spoiler front and back. Note the section that has the DATSUN decal on the back of the spoiler. That decal is 13 inches long and is where the flat section is on the spoiler.

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    I know Interpart also made what is described as a BRE type rear spoiler early on. Both the Interpart and BRE offering were sold without the raised portion for an emblem. BRE must have made both versions, with the raised area - that mirrored the 432 spoiler and without. Mine does not have the raised area and for all I know could be an Interpart piece, but the guy I bought it from said it was an original BRE - meaning - from their catalog.

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    I am a little fuzzy on the exact details, but Interpart took over selling BRE items when Peter Brock moved away from racing. I believe that Mac Tilton was directly involved with Interpart. So saying you have a BRE/Interpart item is correct. BRE cataloges ceased to exist in 73 or 74? after that BRE Datsun performance parts were sold through Interpart.

    The spoiler pictured above in Carls post is the 432 spoiler, that type of spoiler ran on the BRE 240Z #46.

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    Thanks Geezer......It's nice when my son and I can both be right.....I remember the BRE spoilers from the 70's and was almost certain there was not an emblem section. I'm looking for originality, so I won't be putting the emblems on the spoiler. Guy
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    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    I'm glad both of us are right b/c in this economy.... neither one of us can afford to bet and be wrong. We have to have all our extra cash to put into our Babies A.K.A Datsun's

    As far as my exhaust leak goes, my exhaust does not have an extended tip so I think that should be my first order of business.

    Thanks for all the great info!!!

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    Yes.... The parts business of BRE became Interpart... and the guys that bought the BRE Parts business added other lines of performance equipment and accessories to expand the profit center. So for a time the BRE Parts business and Interpart were one and the same really.

    To my knowledge BRE never sold the Nissan Part, nor did they reproduce an exact copy. The BRE rear spoiler was built differently, and had a fully enclosed bottom. The only original Nissan spoilers I've seen pictures of - were open (not fully enclosed) on the bottom. I was looking for a picture of mine... but it looks like I'll have to take one on the car... The original BRE Spoiler Mounting instructions don't have any pictures either.

    The BRE Spoiler came with a foam rubber seal - that was supposed to go under the spoiler - I didn't put it on mine. I didn't want it holding moisture on the car - better to let the water run off. It also came with DATSUN and BRE decals... I didn't put either on.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Side note - I think I might want to have a die-cut BRE logo for my front spook. Anyone heard if Les or the re-incarnated BRE has plans to repop those stickers?
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diseazd View Post
    Thanks Geezer......It's nice when my son and I can both be right.....I remember the BRE spoilers from the 70's and was almost certain there was not an emblem section. I'm looking for originality, so I won't be putting the emblems on the spoiler. Guy
    Guy, I don't think you could correctly call it going for originality unless you used the actual Nissan rear spoiler complete with the appropriate emblem/s. Even then I believe it was an option in most markets or sold from the Sports Options Catalogs or Performance Catalogs. Anything from BRE or Interpart or any of the current reproductions are aftermarket pieces, so there is no right or wrong emblem choice. I just refer to my rear spoiler as a BRE type. I have no plans to mount any emblems on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Side note - I think I might want to have a die-cut BRE logo for my front spook. Anyone heard if Les or the re-incarnated BRE has plans to repop those stickers?
    Funny you should ask. These were just announced in the last BRE newsletter sent out a couple of days ago.

    http://www.bre2.net/mm5/merchant.mvc...ecals_sub_240Z

    -Mike

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    Supporting Member Diseazd's Avatar
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    Ron......Most Z's running around in the 70's had the BRE spoilers. Just ordered my BRE type spoiler from Motorsport. $152.95 plus S&H.
    Last edited by Diseazd; 10-31-2008 at 11:16 AM.
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    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diseazd View Post
    Ron......Most Z's running around in the 70's had the BRE spoilers.
    Yes they did, most were aftermarket, some were dealer ordered from Nissan. My last post was just my feeble attempt to point out the differences to anyone reading this thread so they can differentiate between the BRE look you and I are trying to achieve, and what is actually considered original. Different people will look at this a different way, example, Ron Carter considers the 432 spoiler the "original". We can't say he is wrong and I don't think what we are doing is wrong either but we can't call it "original". Well you can if you want, but I just wanted others to note the difference if that makes sense.

    Edit - Guy, do you know if the underside of the one you ordered is enclosed at the bottom? Just curious of how it is constructed and how it is mounted.
    Last edited by geezer; 10-31-2008 at 11:30 AM.

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    Supporting Member Diseazd's Avatar
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    Ron....No, but will reply when I receive it in a week. Guy
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    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Yes.... The parts business of BRE became Interpart... and the guys that bought the BRE Parts business added other lines of performance equipment and accessories to expand the profit center. So for a time the BRE Parts business and Interpart were one and the same really.

    To my knowledge BRE never sold the Nissan Part, nor did they reproduce an exact copy. The BRE rear spoiler was built differently, and had a fully enclosed bottom. The only original Nissan spoilers I've seen pictures of - were open (not fully enclosed) on the bottom. I was looking for a picture of mine... but it looks like I'll have to take one on the car... The original BRE Spoiler Mounting instructions don't have any pictures either.

    The BRE Spoiler came with a foam rubber seal - that was supposed to go under the spoiler - I didn't put it on mine. I didn't want it holding moisture on the car - better to let the water run off. It also came with DATSUN and BRE decals... I didn't put either on.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Carl, the 432 (Datsun) spoiler that Les sells, is fully enclosed on the bottom with fiberglass, and the studs for securing it to the hatch are mounted in this bottom piece. I would imagine that a small o-ring or thin rubber washer would be a wise addition to seal it from water. I believe some spoilers sold during those days even came with some sort of seal for the front edge of the spoiler so water would not run underneath, but which ones I don't know. I have the 432 rear spoiler from Les, as well as the BRE front spoiler (made from BRE molds). However, I understand that BRE front racing spoilers were different from the ones they sold.
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    Default NISSAN/BRE Rear Spoilers

    Here is a picture of the BRE rear spoiler from late 71. As you can see it lacks the upright reinforcements on the front face, as shown on the Nissan part. There is also no provision for mounting the original deck lid emblems on the rear surface.

    I call it a "Nissan" rear spoiler because as I understand it - it was an optional accessory. Not standard on the 432Z's.

    The U.S. Parts Catalog lists about six different part numbers for the Nissan rear spoiler - but no notation is made for applied dates.

    Pictures of the 73 JDM models - show a rear spoiler that looks like the BRE spoiler, at least on the front face. The upright reinforcing ribs of the earlier style are no longer there, so Nissan must have also changed their original design.

    The Parts Catalog shows six studs mounted across the bottom, about equally spaced on the Nissan part. The BRE Spoiler uses two studs on each side, on the outer edges of the deck lid, plus to in the deck lid itself - which are reached via the two rubber drain plugs in the deck lid lower edge.

    Bryan - note that I did put rubber washers under the Studs.

    BRE ran their original design front spook in 1970 on the #46 C-Production car. Sometime in 1971 they changed to the MK-II design, put it on their #46 and #3 Z cars, and sold that model to the public.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
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    I'm stepping back up onto the old hamster wheel again......

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    I call it a "Nissan" rear spoiler because as I understand it - it was an optional accessory. Not standard on the 432Z's.
    What everybody usually calls the "BRE" rear spoiler, and what others ( as seen in this thread.... ) call the "432" rear spoiler - that's the one usually identified by the vertical ribs on its front face - would be more accurately described as the '432R' rear spoiler. This item was first seen at the press preview event held at Nissan's Ginza, Tokyo showroom on October 18th 1969, and was mounted on the PS30-SB model 'Fairlady-Z 432R' that was on display there. This model was a purpose-built homologation special, constructed and made available to the general public in very small numbers in order to legalise the model for Japanese GT racing. Nissan only needed to make 25 cars in order to qualify for the JAF GT class - so that's what they did. This rear spoiler also made it into the JAF homologation papers for the 'Fairlady-Z 432' ( NB - this is NOT the '432R' ) and 'Fairlady Z/Z-L', and also the JAF / FIA 3023 papers for the Export model 240Zs.

    This "PZR" rear spoiler was also included in the standard showroom model options lists for the other current Japanese domestic models of that period ( November 1969 through October 1971 ). It could be optioned at time of order, and was sometimes fitted by the dealer supplying the car to the customer. We could call it a standard Japanese extra-cost option for all models, but in Japan it is more commonly known as the '432R' rear spoiler, because that is the model that it is identified as having originated from.

    To sum up, this spoiler was standard equipment on the PS30-SB model 'Fairlady-Z 432-R', but was offered as an extra cost showroom catalogue option for the other models.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Pictures of the 73 JDM models - show a rear spoiler that looks like the BRE spoiler, at least on the front face. The upright reinforcing ribs of the earlier style are no longer there, so Nissan must have also changed their original design.
    You're a couple of years out, Carl.
    In October 1971 - with the introduction of the L24-engined models to the Japanese market lineup - the new 'smooth' rear spoiler ( without the distinctive vertical ribs of the 'PZR' spoiler ) was offered as an option across all Japanese market models. As far as I am aware, the ribs were deleted from the new design as they held water between them when it rained, and this water would flood across the window and into the gap between the tailgate and roof panel when the tailgate was raised.........

    You seem to have managed to make it sound as though Nissan 'copied' the BRE design for the 'smooth' spoiler. I'd say the opposite is far more likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The Parts Catalog shows six studs mounted across the bottom, about equally spaced on the Nissan part. The BRE Spoiler uses two studs on each side, on the outer edges of the deck lid, plus to in the deck lid itself - which are reached via the two rubber drain plugs in the deck lid lower edge.
    There is an illustration and instructions / dimensions for mounting of the later 'smooth' spoiler in the October 1971 factory service manual for the HS30, PS30 and S30 models. These are the exact same dimensions as the six mounting studs on the OEM early 'PZR' type ribbed rear spoiler that I sourced from Japan for my 432R replica project, and they correspond with the mounting holes for the standard smooth rear spoiler seen on all the UK export market cars.

    Photos: 1969 Japanese market options list, 1971 Japanese market options list close-up, and October 1971 Japanese market FSM page scan:
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    Last edited by HS30-H; 11-02-2008 at 05:01 AM.

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    So a spoiler with the ribs and flat spot is a "PZR" or "432R"? I have one I picked up when I was stationed in Japan and want to know what to call it. I plan to someday fit it my 73 but until I do I just keep up in the rafters of the garage. I always wondered what to call it...I knew it was not a BRE.

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    But Montezuma, it is what BRE ran on their 240Z race car in 1970, so it "IS" to americans the "BRE" spoiler as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montezuma View Post
    So a spoiler with the ribs and flat spot is a "PZR" or "432R"? I have one I picked up when I was stationed in Japan and want to know what to call it. I plan to someday fit it my 73 but until I do I just keep up in the rafters of the garage. I always wondered what to call it...I knew it was not a BRE.

    Montezuma,
    Just to clarify the term: "PZR" was factory internal vernacular for the PS30-SB 'Fairlady-Z 432R' models ( "PZ" was PS30 'Fairlady-Z 432', "ZS" was S30-S 'Fairlady-Z', "ZDX" was S30 'Fairlady-ZL', etc etc ) so you could feasibly call that style of rear spoiler - especially if you sourced it direct from Japan - either "PZR" or "432R" style.

    It seems logical to me to use the term that identifies the source or root of the original design, or which at least points to where it came from.

    Everybody is of course quite free to call them what they want. However, in my opinion it seems better to make that choice after you have had all the appropriate and relevant information placed before you. I'm sure you would agree



    Alan T.

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    Supporting Member Diseazd's Avatar
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    Geezer-Just got my BRE rear spoiler from Motorsports. It is smooth on the front (no ridges) , smooth on the back (no place for emblems), and is fully enclosed underneath. It is lined on the bottom with a foam gasket as Carl mentioned and bolts with two bolts that attach via the drain plugs. The quality is perfect! It's exactly what I was looking for. I'll post pics when my computer savvy son can get to it.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7600346077563/
    ______________________________________________
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7603350695459/

    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    Default OEM spoiler

    Hi Alan,

    thank you for the explaining details,I learned why the ribs disappeared.

    Here is a spoiler now on sale Yahoo auction.
    http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w30694693

    This is a real OEM with no-ribs version.We can confirm it is an OEM when look at inside of the spoiler. The stud bolts finishing and reinforcements are the sign of the OEM.

    My 1970 Z432 should have a spoiler with ribs version,but now installed an OEM with no-ribs version.

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884

    1972 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-60213 (12/71)
    L24-072419

    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Did anybody make a spoiler that did NOT overlap the rear quarter panels? I have one that is either missing the "tabs" for each side or was designed just to fit the hatch.

    I dont think I will be installing it on the 70 but may install it on a 71 or 72 after this one is done.

    Any help?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Side note - I think I might want to have a die-cut BRE logo for my front spook. Anyone heard if Les or the re-incarnated BRE has plans to repop those stickers?
    I recieved the BRE 240 Z Die Cut for Airdam decals today. I followed Mike B's link in answer to Arne's post here. Bonus...Along with the decals, I was sent the reproduction brochure, "Datsun 510 Trans-Am Decor Package". Very nice!

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    Gayle and Peter are great about that stuff, they are using the same guy that I used to have all the die cut decals made for my BRE replica, so they are great quality and a well made and correct reproduction of the original decals.

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    Mike B
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    Ron (Carter)

    I noticed that the BRE site has this comment on the page where they sell the decals:

    "Just a reminder: the BRE race car graphics and BRE logo are trademarks of Brock Racing Enterprises LLC. If you have, or are creating, a clone of a BRE car, please contact us for licensing information at info@bre2.net"

    I wonder what they consider a clone to be? Copying the exact BRE paint scheme and decals? What if someone uses different color combinations? I think someone in another thread proposed painting their car a similar scheme, except using yellow and black. I wonder if that would be considered a clone? Can someone be sued for having an unlicensed clone of a BRE car?

    -Mike

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    Default BRE Licensing

    Hi Mike,

    Yes, BRE is protecting their trademarks. This includes the paint scheme, decals etc. Mostly this is to protect BRE from companies that would offer a model for sale with their paint scheme on a Datsun car in such a way as it could be considered a "BRE" type vehicle.

    This is not meant to deter individuals from building a BRE replica, and it is not a way for BRE to generate revenue. It is a way for them to protect what they have created.

    In order for BRE to hold up their trademarks they must enforce this to all parties. Including tribute vehicles like mine.

    Gayle has forwarded me a copy of their agreement and I have made several recommendations regarding how they approach this as it is not meant to effect the construction of tribute cars, and create problems their owners. If anything it would be a bonus at the time that a BRE approved tribute car came up for sale as it will be well documented by the real article.

    As to the specifics of your question....

    BRE Graphics in narrative form:

    Car has diagonal strips that extend from the top rear of the front quarter panel, across the door seam, to the bottom of the front of the door.

    Approx 1/3 down the length of the stripes there is a break where the name Datsun or BRE is placed.

    Car is to be painted in two contrasting colors.

    The first color is to extend from the front of the car (front spoiler) over the top of the car (hood, roof and trunk lid) down the back of the car (down the backside and below the bumper).

    This “top” color is to extend slightly down the sides of the car (approx 2 inches)

    This “top” color is to be used for the stripes. In the case of a two-color car the “top” color will be the color of the entire stripe

    The second color is to be used:

    For the sides of the car, filling in the entire area from below the line of the top color to the bottom of the car.

    On the back of the car in the area that houses the brake lights.

    As a “panel insert” on the back half of the top of the car

    There is the option to use a third color. If a third color is used it will be used as the color of the bottom 2/3rd of the diagonal stripes

    Also included as part of the schema is the use of over-sized race numbers. These numbers are placed on the hood of the car, on each side of the car and on the top of the car in the 2nd color “panel insert”.

    The BRE logo is to be visible from all sides of the car. In the back it will be placed where a license plate would reside. In the front it will be on the spoiler. On the sides it is to be placed where side marker lights would normally be located.

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    I understand the power of trademarks, but does BRE still race S30's? If not, I don't see much issue here, as long as it's clear that the car is a "replica".

    Am I off-base on this?
    Julio
    1972 240Z (in-progress, 95% complete)
    CZC# 15388

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Julio,

    I would suggest that you forward your question to Gayle Brock directly. As far as I know, they do not race Datsuns of any type currently.

    I know that Peter has a 510, but it is not painted up as a BRE car.

    As far as I know, they are within their legal right to do this, I thought that the paint scheme is a little far fetched, but Gayle says otherwise.

    I will stress again, that they are not trying to apply pressure to any party who wishes to build a replica or tribute car. They are trying to protect their property from model manufactures and alike.

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    I've been exposed to trademarked material and I have a few patents, so I am a strong proponent of enforcement, but only where it makes sense.

    Is BRE focused on limiting use by individuals making replica vehicles, or just going after those trying to make money off of their name? If the latter, I completely, 100% support their position.

    However, if they limit partial emulation or actual "replicas" of 30+ year old Datsun paint schemes by individuals, I don’t believe it to be reasonable. It's also a good way to hurt BRE’s reputation in the Datsun motorsports fan base...

    However your write-up does beg a legal question.__Is the BRE Datsun paint scheme a "registered" Trademark or “currently” valid Copyright?

    I'm no lawyer, (and am operating from memory here), but my limited understanding is that trademarks have infinite life span. Copyrights, like patents, expire after a period of time. My recollection is copyrights have a 28-year life span unless re-registered in the year it expires. If re-registered, they last a very long time.

    If BRE is using the "legal" card to limit use, it might be worth checking into.
    Julio
    1972 240Z (in-progress, 95% complete)
    CZC# 15388

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    Again, I cannot speak to the legal side of this as I am not a lawyer. Gayle was clear to me that this was not an attempt to generate $$$.

    It is to protect their TRADEMARKS, according to the draft agreement she sent over to me.

    The document is called "BRE Tribute Trademark Agreement".

    Again, I would forward any additional questions to Info@bre2.net

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    Ron,

    Are you referring to Pete Brock's orange 510? If so, a guy named Dave in MD from the 510 forum bought that car from Pete a few years ago. He has a great shot of the two of them in front of the car with Pete signing the title The car is immaculate!!

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    no - Peter built a new V8 powered 510. I think it is pictured elsewhere on this site from the recent Japanese Classic Car Show..

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Whaaa??!!!

    I got to drive a Titan for the first time this weekend. I was just thinking how great that engine would be in a 510 or S30 If you could make it fit......
    Last edited by five&dime; 11-11-2008 at 06:56 AM.

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    I think to more fully understand or appreciate the "Trade Mark" thing - you have to keep in mind that Peter Brock is a "Professional Designer". In a broader sense he is an accomplished and well known Industrial Designer. He has designed cars, hang-gliders, and Graphics Packages among many other things.

    For example, Mr. Brock created the paint scheme and logos for Shelby America while employed there. Of course we all know that Mr. Shelby had copyright and registered trade marks on everything related to the Shelby Brand Name.

    The BRE Racing Team's cars were all rolling bill boards for "Peter Brock Designs" and the BRE Corporation, and thus the image of the BRE Cars Graphic Design packages, became Registered Trade Marks of Peter Brock and BRE Inc. They were "award winning" Graphic Design Packages

    Model Companies are one group that reproduce the BRE Design images, but there are people out there that were selling complete BRE Decal Packages on E-Bay as well, without permission and without paying the royalties due.

    Like Ron said, if you are doing a replica or tribute car I don't think you would have any problem getting a release from BRE. Matter of fact if the replica was complete and accurate enough to warrant a "release from BRE"... it would in a way be an endorsement of accuracy from them!! On the other hand if you are making money by using a BRE Design, without paying the royalties due any professional designer... you are in effect stealing from them.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    On the other hand if you are making money by using a BRE Design, without paying the royalties due any professional designer... you are in effect stealing from them.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    I didn't know about his background as an industrial designer.Thanks for that.As I stated in my previous post, completely agree with your statement above. In fact, I feel strongly enough about it that I don't practice illegal duplication of movies or software.

    FWIW, I was simply digging a bit deeper into BRE's perspective regarding "not for profit", personal use by an individual. For classic Z's, the BRE graphics are iconic, symbolizing a "fast" car, similar to the GT40 Gulf color scheme. (I've seen a couple of those driving around with Gulf graphics).

    It's also "where" you draw the line onwhat they consider "infringement". For example, would CoastGuard Z's ghost diagonal fender stripes be considered infringement? In my mind it would not, because it's not a direct copy of the BRE paint scheme. Of course, lawyers might happily make alot of money fighting over something like that in court...

    My apologies to anyone if this is a sensitive subjetc. I'm kinda like a kid poking a dead frog with a stick on this one...
    Julio
    1972 240Z (in-progress, 95% complete)
    CZC# 15388

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Julio,

    I am not sure where the line is drawn here. Ghosted images are a good question.

    These are not sensitive questions, just ones I don't have answers to and would refer to the people directly involved.

    This subject has direct bearing on me personally because I have built a BRE tribute car, and I will get mine licensed by BRE. I would suggest others to do so as well.

    BTW, The frog is still dead

    Carl,

    Thanks for the background, we know the history, sometimes I overlook that others do not.

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