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Thread: Triple Carb vs. Holley 4BBL Carb

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    Registered User red_dog007's Avatar
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    Default Triple Carb vs. Holley 4BBL Carb

    For a 240z, with Stage II cam, 1980zx distributor, exhaust system, what would be better.


    40mm Triple Carb kit, or the Holley 4BBL Carb? How would these two compare in availble performance for the L24? The Holley does seem like it would be nice as I wouldn't have to keep 3 Carbs in sync, but only if it is worth it. Would it even be much better then stock Carbs?

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    Registered User Walter Moore's Avatar
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    Do a search on the forums:

    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ghlight=barrel

    It seems to be a very touchy subject, but the SUs work fine on nearly any L24. The next step up is triples. The 4 barrel apparently doesn't gain you much, if anything. Remember, the throttle plates in the stock SUs are over 1 3/4 inches. Those things flow a lot of air.
    '71 240Z, Because any fool can drive fast in a straight line.

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    i would go with 44s on an L24, personally.

    4bbl = easy to tune, most mechanics know them forward & backward
    trip carbs = great power and sound, throttle response, no pooling of fuel in the intake manifold.
    Jason King
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Again, there are several Bible Creek Hillclimb (Oregon) records held by 2.8L Z's with standard issue 46mm Hitachis.

    There is such a thing as the "Unique" factor and there is the "best" factor. Throw away the latter for the former, what's the gain? I don't understand the attitude that rejects out of hand the format NISSAN engineering chose when these cars were in production......
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    I'd have to agree. For the best overall performance, use the S.U.'s. By the time you fiddle around with that Holley to the point that it more or less works, all you end up with is a compromise. And bad gas mileage. I, personally, don't know of anyone that ever got the tuning right on a Holley 4bbl equipped L series. And, unless you plan to do more to that L24 than you described in your post, the same goes for 40mm triples. I don't understand the tuning question as a factor of whether or whether not to use a particular induction system on 240Z's. What's so hard about tuning S.U.'s? They're much easier than dialing in Holleys, Webers, Mikunis, etc.
    Last edited by sblake01; 10-01-2007 at 09:19 AM.
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    Save money and keep the best setup (non race), the SUs!! esp. with the stock air filter housing (pre 73)...

    Best no-brainer in the history of the world (to quote a local mortgage radio ad)...

    Fuel/air has a straight line to the head with the 3 carb / SU setup...the 4 barrel setup, the air/fuel has a lot of travel to go through, and it's not in a straight line. I've heard of people on here doing that setup, but eventually going back to the SU setup...as there isn't a significant increase in anything...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Palmer View Post
    Again, there are several Bible Creek Hillclimb (Oregon) records held by 2.8L Z's with standard issue 46mm Hitachis.
    Making power is one thing. Getting a record at a hillclimb is another. Triples make more hp than dual SU's, and I think you'd be hard pressed to prove me wrong on that one. The 4 barrel manifold is junk sold to rednecks who grew up with Chevys and are too lazy to figure out how to tune SU's.

    That's my take on it anyway.
    Jon

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    Jmortensen, I can say the same for putting a small block in a Z- lazy front heavy garbage. In my opinion
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenshinX View Post
    Jmortensen, I can say the same for putting a small block in a Z- lazy front heavy garbage. In my opinion
    You might want to do some research on your opinion. While you are entitled to be wrong, the new Chevy V8's (LS) and older Ford V8's (302) are lighter than the L6. Lot's of guys over at Hybrid Z running more weight on the rear of the car than the front due to the heavier trans and diff required to handle their new "lazy" engine's power. After the swap is complete they usually do end up gaining weight overall, but it almost all gets added on to the rear of the car and not the front assuming a more modern engine setback like the JTR, MSA, or John's Cars setups.

    But that's all a bit of a thread jack, so we should keep it confined to the fact that triples make more power than duals. Don't believe me? Call Rebello, take a look at what Nissan ran on the CP cars back in the day, see what GT3 Z engines use, FP cars, etc.
    Jon

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    Registered User Walter Moore's Avatar
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    Having hoisted the L24 around in my garage for several years, I can attest that it is one HEAVY engine. A newer aluminum block V8 may well be lighter.

    But back on topic... As I said, it is a touchy subject.
    '71 240Z, Because any fool can drive fast in a straight line.

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    Cool

    If $$$ is no object,then Triples-no question the best performer.If $$$ IS a consideration,then SUs.A Holley is a last resort(got-it-sitting-on-the-shelf and really don't care about doing it right)

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    In 1974 I discarded the factory SUs on my 1970 Z in favor of triple Mikuni-Solex carbs. Coupled with a BRE 3/4 cam, those carbs added what feels like an extra 100 hp to the otherwise, mostly-stock L24. I can now understand the current gen's love affair with nitrous....we just did it the old-fashioned way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Palmer View Post
    Throw away the latter for the former, what's the gain? I don't understand the attitude that rejects out of hand the format NISSAN engineering chose when these cars were in production......
    Curiously, that brings up the original plans for the 240Z---the original preproduction brochures sent to dealers in 1968/9 for ordering the 240 included the 'Sports' 240, a car with 175 HP and Triple Mikuinis. The Standard, lower trim level vehicle had the SU's.

    Due to emissions requirements that were instituted in 1967, and their continuing reinterpretation, the Mikuini Option was killed. This was one of the considerations for Toyota not bringing in the 2TG motor option here in the USA as well, while Canada got it...1600CC DOHC Four Cylinder with Dual Mikuini PHH carbs. Just like the Fairlady Roadsters that preceeded it, Nissan's conservative engineering and emissions policy doomed the good engine options to those areas outside the USA. The 432 continued on the track of 'ultimate performance' with 40PHH Mikuinis, and since the target market on the Z was nixed for the Mikuini Option, it was dropped altogether worldwide. Sad...

    So yes, considering the Mikuinis give roughly 15-20% more HP as stated by period literature from both Mikuini USA and Nissan (175 versus 150hp for instance) one must 'consider what NISSAN engineering chose when these cars were in development'

    If you only consider production you rule out the choices the engineers made, and settle for what the Government Regulations Dictated. Saying the SU's were the choice of engineering is somewhat of a mis-statement. The SU's were what was setteled upon for price point and more importantly long term emissions sustainability. Frankly, Nissan didn't trust technicians in the USA could perform the upkeep properly...and they were probably correct.

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    fwiw you dont have to run a 4bbl. I ran a morotcraft 2bbl, and it had tremendous response, tons of high rpm pull, and great mileage compared to my su's. With the 2bbl, I got 26 in the CITY, and with the su's the best I could get was 23 on the HIGHWAY.

    EDIT: I dont know if they have an intake manifold for a motorcraft, my application consisted of a custom intake manifold, and a carb spacer.
    Last edited by justin260z; 11-20-2007 at 02:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justin260z View Post
    ...with the su's the best I could get was 23 on the HIGHWAY.
    How odd. With my stock SUs I get a solid 30 MPG on 60 MPH highway driving, and 20-21 in town. Are you talking about the factory flat-top carbs that the 260Z came with? If so, those don't count...
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    '86 Turbo justin260z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    How odd. With my stock SUs I get a solid 30 MPG on 60 MPH highway driving, and 20-21 in town. Are you talking about the factory flat-top carbs that the 260Z came with? If so, those don't count...
    Im talking about the early round tops. I dont know why i get that mileage.... maybe I need to rebiuld them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    Frankly, Nissan didn't trust technicians in the USA could perform the upkeep properly...and they were probably correct.
    If Nissan felt that way they had their heads up their asses. If you agree... well you do the math. Aren't you the VW freak? How many sets of downdraft Webers would you estimate have been tuned in the rednecked US of A? I can tell you I used to see quite a few old Porsches running around on downdrafts. You're talking about an easier to tune version of the same basic carb just turned on its side. No big mystery. In fact I think they're a lot less mysterious to the average mechanic than an SU.

    Not sure where the self-loathing anti-Americanism comes from, but get over it. I think the reason for importing the SU's and not Mikunis was purely emissions. If I recall correctly Nissan (and many other makes) also kept using carbs on cars in other countries longer than they did here in the US for emissions reasons.
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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    He was actually talking about Mikunis but that doesn't change anything. Some of his info seems to be based on fact, i.e., what he's read but a lot of it seem to be based on opinion. Not just in this thread but others also. I don't know where that comes from but if he believes it, I guess he's entitled to.
    Last edited by sblake01; 11-21-2007 at 03:44 PM.
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    Down-draft vs Side Draft:

    Just one case of engineering "choice" for example:

    Interesting that Mr. Iida commented in an interview reported by Nostalgic Hero, that when his team designed the first L20 in-line six cylinder, OHC engine (with a four month design cycle), they used side draft carb's because they had less resistance to flow, than the down drafts, and thus produced more HP and Torque. (115 ps or 113.43HP)

    Everything in Engineering is a trade-off however. Mr. Iida also said that the reduced resistance to flow of the side draft carb.'s, combined with poor valve stem seals - - resulted in oil being sucked up the cylinder walls, and the oil rings used were not sufficient to initially seal, nor wipe the walls clean - thus high oil consumption resulted.

    He also tells us that the twin carb's were difficult to tune and the original L20 suffered from a high idle speed - which caused higher fuel consumption and customers complained about the noise at idle from the engine.

    A year after initial production, the second version of the L20 was equipped with a down draft carb. - lost some HP/Torque (now down to 105ps or 103.56HP), but equipped with new valve seals and newly designed oil rings, combined with reduced flow from the downdraft carb - the oil consumption was brought under control, and with the down-draft engine idle speed was lowered to increase fuel mileage and reduce noise in the car at idle.

    {on later engine designs, in addition to better rings and seals - Positive Crankcase Ventilation reduced the tendency to suck oil past the rings and valve stems into the cylinders - when pressure went negative in the cylinder, relative to the crankcase - on the intake stroke. Engines designed later had to have PVC to be exported to the US starting in 67 AIR...cjb}

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Last edited by Carl Beck; 11-21-2007 at 10:43 PM.

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    ! I recall people changing from the Zeniths and Solexes wholesale on Porsches because they were 'too complex' to tune. And they went to a Weber...yeah, 'complex'...
    And scads of people went with a Single 48IDA or even a 32NDIX on a VW offroader because it was 'easier' to tune than 'troublesome multiple carbs'.

    It's not 'self-loathing anti-Americanisim' at all, but a simple observation of everyday facts of life, as well as posssibly revealing some unpleasant facts---don't shoot the messenger!

    Corvairs were loathed with two one-barrels, much less the four one-barrels, and the big conversion was to put a single two barrel on them, or even better a 390 Holley (sound familiar?) Resulted in terrible drivability when cold, and carb icing, but hey, there's only a coupla screws to turn, and I don't have to 'balance' anything---whatever that means.

    Call all the names you want, but years of firsthand observations show me that maybe Nissan's concerns about their service department throughout the midwest at the time may not have been too far off base!

    Keep in mind this was a period when people may have to travel from L.A. and the corporate office to fix customer's cars, or attend to troublesome warranty situations.

    In the 1970's multiple carburetor systems on small bore imported cars had the average corner mechanic running for cover. That was something exotic, like on a Ferrari, or other European Marque.

    For the same reason, people lifted up the secondaries and stuck galvanized plates of sheetmetal and tar under their Tri-Power Firebirds 'because they sucked too much gas'...

    There's a reason I moved WEST. To get away from simpletons who thought because they could fit a spanner to nut that made them qualified to dispense high performance advice. I came to where I bought all my VW parts from. I came to where those funny little jap cars that everybody seemed to like to take sledghammers to every fourth of july for $20 a whack came through the ports.

    I don't know if that answers your question or not, but facts of the matter are MYTHS surround the complexities of triple carburettors. About how they need to constantly be adjusted, blah blah blah.

    I know they're not true, you know they're not true, but I can see guys who insist that they have to fiddle with it every week or more, and will tell everybody they know that is how they are supposed to be.

    The 432's were serviced at specialty dealerships in Japan for just such a reason. Does that mean any dealership mechanic couldn't do it? Probably not...but would you let your Porsche 904 Carrera be serviced at the local VW dealership? Flat Four Air Cooled, same same, right?

    Engineers rarely give much credit to the field folks.

    You may get extremely pi$$ed off about it, but it's a fact of life. You want to cry about an Engineer's estimation of their service force in 1968, talk to them, don't beat me up over it!

    Judging from my experiences in the 70's with midwestern service networks, the Nissan Engineers may not have been that far off base. If it's a personal slight to you, then you'll have to deal with it, but I'd suggest yelling at the Nissan people, not me. While emissions may have been the death blow, the final nail in the coffin, the coup de grace....serviceability longterm was on everybody's mind. You may not want to admit it, but keeping it running with the existing service network is a major concern to any OEM when they introduce a new product.

    Just look what Nissan went through trying to get people to understand how a 'power valve' works in the 73-74 Flat-Top SU's. And then the major education campaign for the 'new' EFI system coming in the 1975 model year.(Very similar to the VW Education Campaign done in 1967 with the Type 3 debut and conversion from Dual 32 PDSIT carbs to Bosch EFI...)

    But back to the topic at hand: If the car doesn't have forged pistons, and is limited to below 7000 rpms, then you may as well give up on triples and go with the Four Barrel. It will make the power same as anything else below that point, and it's cheap. Cheaper than most any of the alternatives given thusfar.

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    Registered User Tony D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    How odd. With my stock SUs I get a solid 30 MPG on 60 MPH highway driving, and 20-21 in town. Are you talking about the factory flat-top carbs that the 260Z came with? If so, those don't count...
    My wife's 260 with round tops will get a solid 27+ mpg if I keep it on the highway at or below 65mph (you could say 60mph average I suppose).

    Get to the 75+mph range, and the car will be in the 22-24mpg range.

    Crack triple digits for a tankful, and you will see 19mpg...

    In town it can be anywhere from 17-mid 20's depending on how friskily I'm teasing the throttle.

    This 260Z has a 3.7 Gearset, late ZX Gearbox, and stock everything else save for the Round Tops. So FWIW, chances are good you have the carbs tweaked a bit rich, or have some other non-optimal componentry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    It's not 'self-loathing anti-Americanisim' at all, but a simple observation of everyday facts of life, as well as posssibly revealing some unpleasant facts---don't shoot the messenger!
    Sorry Tony, I think we're still in disagreement here. Last week it was that the metric system is inherently more accurate than SAE measurements, this week it is that midwesterners are too stupid to deal with side drafts. As far as I can see, you're not the messenger, you're the one coming to the conclusions. There are stupid people everywhere and your straw man example of people covering up the third carb on their tri-power V8's doesn't prove that everyone in the midwest is a moron. What's more, finding a good mechanic ANYWHERE is a chore. My buddy (a very talented mechanic) used to say about some of his Californian co-workers "I don't know how to spell mokanic but I are one". Turns out California isn't stocked with geniuses either. Surprise, surprise.
    Jon

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    Registered User Tony D's Avatar
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    Actually, that was quite some time ago, but if you want to hold a grudge on Metric system being inherently intuitive, I can't help you. it was not last week, check it.

    Similarly, after 20+ years of having to deal with Midwestern attitude about japcrap, nazikrautburningwagens, and whatever other racist, narrowminded and ignorant drive you care to hear I got fed up and LEFT.

    Rally around the flag if you want to. There was a time in my youth that I felt if I could do it, anybody could. Unfortunately as time has gone by, I realized that this was not the case.

    Instead of getting upset by their incompetence, I simply choose to accept they exist and call a spade a spade. People are idiots. But I find the acceptance of Japanese Vehicles, and Imports in general to be the RULE here out west, than back in the mideast.

    I will remind you in the late 70's a Ford Executive...one of the annointed 'family' in fact, while being driven around SoCal commented there 'sure were a lot of imports out here'...and when the local Ford Rep explained that people drove great distances, so fuel economy was a big concern as well as reliability the Annointed One insightfully replied that 'It must be some sort of regional anomaly'....

    The lights are one, but nobody's home. And that was the environment in which I was raised. Sorry, but it's still distasteful. But with that kind of an upbringing and seeing it all around me, it's hard to shake the impression that there is a dearth of intelligence in that part of the country when it comes to Imports, Import Technology, and generally anything that didn't come out of Detroit.

    And they didn't cover up the third carb, the covered up BOTH the secondary carbs. That would probably have gone hand-in-hand with the guys putting the 390's on the Corvairs, both 140 and 180HP models... etc.

    Ignore the rest of the examples, I got a million examples. The point was in 1970, multiple carburettor systems were not the standard in the general mechanical knowledge pool. And that is what you have to draw from. Fixate on what you want to argue about, fine. Just don't miss the bigger picture.

    Sure there are idiots everywhere, and sure, California is not an exception.
    Thanks for making my point about why it was considered a bad idea to go with Triple Mikuinis on an OEM application versus two SU's.

    Frankly, with non-adjustable jetting the Mikuinis would be easier to meet emissions compliance longterm than variable jetted SU's. They made JDM emissions requirements till 1980 at least on Toyotas with 2TG's and 18RG's. And those requirements were stricter than CA regulations for a good part of that time... So while on the face of it the 'polite answer' was that emissions nixed the package, there is more to it than that. Primarily nobody KNEW what US Emissions REquirements were going to be one year to the next. THAT is a better explanation than simply saying Mikuinis wouldn't meet emissions requirements. Once they stabilized after 1975, it became easy to make compliance. But from 67 to 75 there was so much fighting, lobbying, and changing of regulations it wasn't funny.

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    so, where can i get a nice set of triples for a reasonable price gents?!

    interesting read for a new member to say the least

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Interesting that Mr. Iida commented in an interview reported by Nostalgic Hero, that when his team designed the first L20 in-line six cylinder, OHC engine (with a four month design cycle), they used side draft carb's because they had less resistance to flow..................

    etc.

    Wow Carl,
    20 months ago - on this very forum - you were dismissing Hiroshi Iida and that Nostalgic Hero article in favour of your own '1966 as Year Zero' theories. What happened? Did you have another Road To Damascus* moment?

    ( * not to be confused with any old movies starring Bob Hope and Bing Crosby ).




    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01
    Some of his info seems to be based on fact, i.e., what he's read but a lot of it seem to be based on opinion. Not just in this thread but others also. I don't know where that comes from but if he believes it, I guess he's entitled to.
    Sorry, are you talking about TonyD or CarlB here?



    Tony,
    Watch out for the stragglers from the HUAC that are still at large - they'll be knocking on your door soon if you are not careful.

    They'd have been knocking on my door too by now, 'cept none of them seem to own a valid passport.............



    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    Rally around the flag if you want to. There was a time in my youth that I felt if I could do it, anybody could. Unfortunately as time has gone by, I realized that this was not the case.
    That's not my point. My point is not to say that every 'Merican is a goddam genius. My point is to say that not all Americans are too damn stupid to work on sidedrafts, and if you assume that they are, then you're the one who is not the genius.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    Instead of getting upset by their incompetence, I simply choose to accept they exist and call a spade a spade. People are idiots. But I find the acceptance of Japanese Vehicles, and Imports in general to be the RULE here out west, than back in the mideast.
    Acceptance of Japanese vehicles seems to be the issue for you then I guess. You seem to automatically think this lack of prejudice against Japanese cars makes the people smarter somehow. That's the part I'm taking issue with. Midwesterners might not like Hondas and there are definitely some morons out that way, but they're also the guys pulling 275 whp out of a 2.3L Ford with a 390 Holley on it. They might not be using sidedrafts, but the fact that they can and do squeeze their preferred motors to a similar (if not higher) state of tune makes me think that maybe they're not as dumb as I once thought.

    I'm just making the point because I used to think all those backward hicks in the midwest were a bunch of idiots until my boss at a Porsche shop got a subscription to Circle Track magazine. When I asked him if he liked watching rednecks drive around in a fishbowl, he made me read an article on aerodynamics and took me out to the shop. Every modification listed in the article was present to one degree or another on a 944 Turbo which was fairly new and still pretty high tech at the time.

    I'm not a fan of drag racing either. Seems like a horribly expensive and destructive hobby to get 10 or 12 seconds of joy out of, but I've also come to realize that it isn't just building a huge engine and mashing the gas pedal.

    I guess I see just as much ignorance in people who hate pushrod V8's because they're "old technology" as you see in people who hate Japanese cars because they're built by (as my friend's immigrant dad says) "fuggin forners". Ignorance is ignorance. Assuming that 10's of millions of people that live in the center of the country are too dumb to work on a carburetor--that's ignorant. You're just calling it the way you see it. So am I.

    The thing on the metric system was a month ago, sorry for dredging up ancient history. ;-) http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=126831
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    Curiously, that brings up the original plans for the 240Z---the original preproduction brochures sent to dealers in 1968/9 for ordering the 240 included the 'Sports' 240, a car with 175 HP and Triple Mikuinis. The Standard, lower trim level vehicle had the SU's.
    Hi Tony D / everyone:
    ""included the "Sports" 240"" ... That makes it sound like there was more than one model - there wasn't. The 69 brochure covered the Datsun 240-Z as it was spec'd for the U.S. at that time. There was no lower trim level vehicle mentioned at that point, that I can find.

    The 1970 Showroom Sales Brochure, that outlined the standard trim, equipment etc actually raised the trim level. (while spec.'ing out the 150HP emissions version) After that brochure went to publication, Nissan included Tinted Glass and Rear Window Defroster as Standard Equipment also. (although it was listed as Optional in the 70 brochure).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    Nissan's conservative engineering and emissions policy doomed the good engine options to those areas outside the USA. The 432 continued on the track of 'ultimate performance' with 40PHH Mikuinis, and since the target market on the Z was nixed for the Mikuini Option, it was dropped altogether worldwide. Sad...
    Emissions Policy - what can we say? The U.S. Voters got what they wanted - less pollution from the cars. Many people thought that was a good thing - and therefore the better car: but I know what you mean.

    Interesting to note that in the long run, those heinous US Emissions Requirements, may have actually lead to far better performing engines today. We'll never know if the manufacturers would have applied the available technology as it came along - of if they would have invested billions of dollars in the necessary R&D to develop it, without being forced to or not.... but I doubt they would have.

    If we are looking at the choices Nissan's conservative engineers made - it is important to note that selection of the S20 for the Z in Japan, was a Management decision, not an engineering choice. Given that the S20 was a Prince Engine - we'll never know if the engineers at Nissan would have selected it or not.

    Neat as the 432 was at the time, or neat a total package as it is still today - the S20 was selected to comply with Japanese government restrictions on engine displacement, while offering a great performing 2.0L engine in the JDM (even if at a significantly higher tax rate and initial price). Emissions or Displacement - government's influence drives engineering choice most of the time. Competition Rules and Regulations drive engineering choice at other times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    So yes, considering the Mikuinis give roughly 15-20% more HP as stated by period literature from both Mikuini USA and Nissan (175 versus 150hp for instance) one must 'consider what NISSAN engineering chose when these cars were in development'
    While the triple carb'd L24 produced 175 HP - it also used a 10.5:1 compression ratio - whereas the 150 HP version was lowered to 9.0:1. So I'm not sure how much HP gain can be attributed solely to the carb's in that case.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    The point being made was that on average the service structure was not compatible with OEM requirements required to support such a system. I'm not saying they all were morons, but ON AVERAGE they WERE NOT capable of that level of support. Not that it takes a genius to synch carbs, but Forrest Gump was working on the chassis rack, and Bubba was just promoted to LOF... We are talking about guys with an Average I.Q. maybe in the 100 range if you are lucky. You would hope they could do it, but many times they can't. And that's a fact. Not a knock, just a cold evaluation of the workforce...not just here in America, but generally EVERYWHERE.

    You are mixing people in the afetermarket with people on an OEM level. You make the assumption that since the engineers did not have confidence in their OEM service structure to support the product that is somehow is a blanket condemnation of Americans in general. It's not, it's a factual analysis of their workforce and there is nothing wrong with agreeing with it from my point of view. They felt the same about the JDM workforce, limiting access to Mikuini-Equipped Triples to only special workcenters with specialized training. You admit you can't find a good mechanic. That in and of itself is a condemnation of the 'average worker'! Don't use absolutes, as I wasn't.

    FOR SHAME!

    I made the comment 'frankly I agree with them' because I do. The service departments most likely could NOT support this setup. I remember having to reset my Corvair after coming back from the GM dealership because they would NEVER get the synch correct. Would it pass GM specs? Probably, maybe, but three notches on the Unisynch was not acceptable to me! And from what I read in the FSM it wasn't acceptable, either! It sure as hell wasn't that way when it went IN to the dealer!

    And this was within a 2 hour drive from the factory training centre. Gawd forbid someone at a Buick Dealership / Datsun setup had to worry about getting to Carson or Gardena for training.

    Getting power from one engine or another does NOT mean they can come in an synch a multiple Mikuini Setup. It's a red herring.

    I deal with technical instruction as part of my job. I deal with people here in the USA with High School Educations...period. I have YET to find someone in the general distribution network with a 4 year degree.

    Now...overseas? At a MINIMUM I deal with people having a 4 Years Bachelors. I was amazed to be doing a field evaluation on a gent with a MASTERS in international finance! The educational requisites for going into the mechanical field here in the USA has been very VERY low.

    What makes America great is the fact that ANYBODY can do WHATEVER they want. What hurts America in many cases is also precisely that as well! Someone may be a stellar performer as an individual, but has absolutely no background in finances or anynthing other than his specialty. Not a balanced individual. Again, not a knock, but a truthful assessment.

    You are using extremes to make your point, while I am using the sad averages. It becomes clear you haven't spent much time in the Mideast. I grew up there. I never said acceptance of Japanese Vehicles was a sign of intelligence. I simply said that I moved BECAUSE OF IGNORANCE.

    There is a big difference.

    I never said people in the Mideast were ignorant because they couldn't work on a carburettor, I said the general workforce of the Nissan / Datsun Service network was likely not about to work on CARBURETORS! That they be in the Mideast is irrelevant to the discussion. But regarding the Mideast comments; that's based on years of dealing with them in the most-trained regions of the Big Three not being able to service their own products much less a smaller line of supplementary vehicles. You're parsing and twisting what I said into something else altogether. My simple statement was that Nissaan Engineering thought that the service network most likely could not support the product, and I agreed with that assessment. Nothing more, nothing about the mideast, just a general statement that the average Datsun guy in the mid 60's and early 70's would most likely not be able to properly service a triple solex setup for long term emissions compliance and low customer complaints. They used specialized dealerships in Japan to deal with this, and as a matter of fact, the NEW GT-R is getting the SAME treatment in the JDM. Likely here as well. What does that TELL YOU about the CURRENT 'Average Dealership Mechanic'? Has anything changed with FAR BETTER internte-based training of technicians compared to the 50's 60's 70's? And that was ALL I was saying. All the rest is pent up agression over something I never said but which obviously you have some issue with. Pushrod V8's? Who cares? The L-Engine is similarly 50-ish design as well...what does that have to do with anything?

    If you take so much offense to that, evaluate what you have said, because you are supporting my statements. There are stupid people everywhere, they are the rule rather than the exception, and that people with preconceived notions can be bullheaded and refuse to see the obvious answer even when it's placed before their noses!

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    Carl, you said:
    <<
    After that brochure went to publication, Nissan included Tinted Glass and Rear Window Defroster as Standard Equipment also.
    >>

    What's up with the tinted glass? My 10/71 has all original glass, but no tint...or is it so subtle that it's pratically the invisible type? Just curious.

    Thanks! Everyone have a good weekend, now....
    --Dave aka Dogma420 My Gallery
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    i'm sure it's the ever-so-slightly-tinted-to-prevent-a-bunch-of-uv tint
    Jason King
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    Frankly, Nissan didn't trust technicians in the USA could perform the upkeep properly...and they were probably correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    There's a reason I moved WEST. To get away from simpletons who thought because they could fit a spanner to nut that made them qualified to dispense high performance advice. I came to where I bought all my VW parts from. I came to where those funny little jap cars that everybody seemed to like to take sledghammers to every fourth of july for $20 a whack came through the ports.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    The lights are one, but nobody's home. And that was the environment in which I was raised. Sorry, but it's still distasteful. But with that kind of an upbringing and seeing it all around me, it's hard to shake the impression that there is a dearth of intelligence in that part of the country when it comes to Imports, Import Technology, and generally anything that didn't come out of Detroit.
    All of this suddenly becomes this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    I never said people in the Mideast were ignorant because they couldn't work on a carburettor, I said the general workforce of the Nissan / Datsun Service network was likely not about to work on CARBURETORS!
    Do you mean to say that if they worked at a Datsun dealership and a triple carbed Z rolled through the door that they would refuse to work on it? If that's your contention, why didn't they refuse to work on the dual SU's? Seems to me like a Mikuni is a lot more similar to your average 4V carb than an SU which has no jets to change and no accelerator pumps but instead has oil and springs and needles and nozzles and all the rest.

    I really don't see where you get off saying I'm the one who is twisting your words around and that I should be ashamed. I've reread the whole post and I just don't see this as a lack of comprehension or any sort of deception on my part. Look I think you're a really smart guy and I've come looking for your advice before and probably will again, but I think you need to perform a cranio-rectal extraction this time.

    The one thing I think we do agree on is that in the US it seems that some people with low IQ's get into wrenching on cars because it doesn't require a degree. That said, I've worked in seven shops in my earlier years (mostly just out of high school), and looking back on it I can say that there might only have been one shop that I worked in that just didn't have a guy smart enough to work on Mikunis. That is of course a subjective assessment, I won't label mine "factual" as your seemingly subjective assessments have been labeled. Also my high IQ didn't make me a good mechanic. In fact I wasn't a very good mechanic by ANY standard of measurement. I was slow. Very slow. And I made mistakes. It's a much better hobby for me than a profession. I don't claim this to mean anything more than that IQ tests probably have little to do with who will be a good mechanic.
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_racer1999 View Post
    i'm sure it's the ever-so-slightly-tinted-to-prevent-a-bunch-of-uv tint
    Could also be the blue tint at the top of the windshield.
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogma420 View Post
    Carl, you said:
    <<
    After that brochure went to publication, Nissan included Tinted Glass and Rear Window Defroster as Standard Equipment also.
    >>

    What's up with the tinted glass? My 10/71 has all original glass, but no tint...or is it so subtle that it's pratically the invisible type? Just curious.

    Thanks! Everyone have a good weekend, now....
    This was discussed at:
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...earchid=508167

    but Mike said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    Does anyone else with a low VIN car have clear glass on the door windows and quarter windows? The clear glass is labeled M-214 and the later tinted glass is labeled M-224.

    -Mike
    It is a very light tint... but can be seen when side by side with the non-tinted glass.


    FWIW,
    Carl

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    "Do you mean to say that if they worked at a Datsun dealership and a triple carbed Z rolled through the door that they would refuse to work on it? "

    In many instances, that was exactly the case! Similarly GM dealers eschewed Quad 48IDA's on Inglese Manifolds...

    Subjective Opinion, perhaps. What makes a fact? If I see it everywhere, doesn't that lend credence to the status of it being a factual observation? You may want to read the subtle qualifiers in your selected quotes. Interestingly you chose 'The lights are on' passage without including who SAID the statement to which I was referring, and how it relates to the general disconnect with the land of imports the ruling class of the Ford Family (and most of the Detroit Big Three) were on the point.

    You got your nickers in a twist because I said I agreed with the Nissan Factory Engineers Evaluation that their general distributorship workforce would be incapable of properly maintaining the proposed Triple-Mikuini System. Anything else said, or brought up is irrelevant, really.

    I don't think my head is allowing me a view of my pancreas by any stretch of the imagination. You have agreed finding a good mechanic is difficult. Well, that is the same thing the Nissan Engineers were saying, your average guy at a distributorship most likely would not be able to handle this job without some more training than they already had.

    I don't know why that statement upsets you so much, but it seems pretty straightforward and logical assessment of the situation existing at the time. It's not Impuging America, even the Big Three make these kinds of assumptions. Some cases they are warranted. Chances are more often than not, they are.

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    Don't want to nit pick, but from what I've even seen on this website, even avid Z owners seem to have issues with SUs...why would these dealerships be able to handle sync'ing SUs but not triples? I understand from my point of view that SUs are easy, but imo back then the double SU setup would probably rank right up on the same level as triples in America circa early 70s...
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    i dunno, 2 throats does not equal 6 throats. even with crappy tuning, SUs can run pretty well. try a crappy tune on triples and it's pretty nasty. that being said, although triples are a lot like tuning downdraught webers, SUs are a lot like tuning the simplest of motorcycle carbs, especially since many motorcylces even used SUs. just fromn personal experience, it's a lot easier to hold two tubes to your ears than it is six
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_racer1999 View Post
    i dunno, 2 throats does not equal 6 throats. even with crappy tuning, SUs can run pretty well. try a crappy tune on triples and it's pretty nasty. that being said, although triples are a lot like tuning downdraught webers, SUs are a lot like tuning the simplest of motorcycle carbs, especially since many motorcylces even used SUs. just fromn personal experience, it's a lot easier to hold two tubes to your ears than it is six
    For the record, unless you get into fixing twisted throttle shafts, you only balance 3 throats on triples. So it's 2 vs 3, not 2 vs 6. Balancing triples is super easy. It's getting the jetting right that people have trouble with.
    Jon

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    got it, that's what i meant
    Jason King
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Going back to the original question about which carbs to choose for his L24, I'd suggest that the degree of modification to his engine will help make that decision for him. If the key engine breathing components (head, cam, exhaust) are stock, then it's likely that his max HP will be the same (or pretty darn close) with all 3 if they are properly tuned. If he has modified those components, then the problem with the SUs is that the only way to adjust the mixture at different RPM/Flows is to grind the needles. This is not a very easy process to master, and is clearly not reversable if you go to far (throw those needles out and start with the next pair). That is a significant benefit in my mind for the triple webers/mikunis on a modified L series engine - you can tune separately for idle, part throttle, and WOT. Of course, the jets are NOT cheap.

    I've not worked on 4 barrels on a Z so don't know how much/little tuning flexibility there is.
    Daniel
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    Screw the politics , why not try a single 2'' SU with a turbo ?
    Mine needs NO tuning or screwing around with , brings on really good power , and gets great mpg ! It's out of a Jag , pre turbo , 5 lbs boost , whoosh !

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    You should swap that S.U. out for a Weber....


    Carl B.

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    No, swap it for a Mikuni! I'll bet that red_dog007 is regretting posing this question.
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