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Thread: Nissan Repro Program Car on Ebay

  1. #1
    Not enough Zs yet! nwcubsman's Avatar
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    Default Nissan Repro Program Car on Ebay

    Got a spare $30k lying around. FYI

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-...ayphotohosting
    Bryan
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    2/73 240Z, HLS30149546
    IZCC #14892

  2. #2
    Mike B
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    I think that one belongs to a member here. Looks like a really nice car.

    -Mike

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    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Good car for collectors, I'd be nervous driving it around. $30k doesn't meet reserve, BTW. I hope it gets sold for good money!
    Steve

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    Registered User FilipeA's Avatar
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    Hi

    It looks a very nice car, but mine is much better... ... it`s mine!!
    I will like to see the final price of it, hope it gets more them $50K

    Filipe Azevedo

  5. #5
    Yellow Z-Car Club DougN's Avatar
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    Yes, I believe that is bobc's beautiful car. I wish I had the space and the $$$ for it! I think of it this way, if I wanted a new Z, I could buy a 350/370, or I could buy this "new" 240 for about the same cost. One will go down in value after purchase, one will hold its value, or likely go up. No contest for me, I'd get the 240!
    Doug

    '73 240Z (HLS30-126840)(10/72) Yellow (64XXX original miles)
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  6. #6
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Lovely car! I'm anxious to see how it sells also. I noticed that one of the pictures was already in my file from 2006. I also notice many things characteristicly Vintage Z and / or Pierre. Haven't seen a VZ on the market in quite some time.

    Doug, if you bought the 350, you could at least drive it. For the value of the VZ to stay steady or go up, you wouldn't be able to drive it much.
    Enjoy the Ride
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  7. #7
    SFZCC westpak's Avatar
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    Very nice Z hope to get mine to look like that some day

    One thing though that struck me was the gas tank, for a "resotred" Z it didn't look that great or is it me? everything else looks so nice.


  8. #8
    Registered User rtaylor's Avatar
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    I saw that car a WCN last month. As good as they are the pictures don't convey how nice this car looks. Worth every penny in my book.
    Randy Taylor
    2/71 240z

    HLS30-23242

  9. #9
    Registered User FilipeA's Avatar
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    Default Vintage Z program

    Hi

    I have to put my sincerely toughts about this car that I already started to say something listed above.
    My restoration program, make me spend much money on parts and seraching of perfection and new parts.

    As "westpak" said there is some parts on the car makes me think that I probably did a restoration better them this on my car.

    In my restoration, I did / put

    INTERIOR

    - new dash, new vinil (chassi and seats) , new door panels, new rubber set OEM(bought few weeks ago), new steering wheel, new heater control panel, new 5 speed ball, new plastic interior, new door arm rest, new rear mirror viewer, door locks, window handles, and many other stuff that my english words don`t come by....

    ENGINE Compartiment

    - Engine rebuilt with OEM piston bearings, new head bolts, new shocks, new fuel, water, oil pump, new plastic fan blade and fan cluctch, zinc all parts, new brake master cilider, new cluct cilinder, new complete OEM exaust, new disc brakes, and as above many other stuff

    - Exterior

    new paint, all new datsun symbol, new tyres, new front and side headlights, re-chrome bumpers, OEM nissan bumpers rubbers (all) and many other stuff

    Take a look at my pictures... if I had the center console symbol it will be a Vintage Z Car





















    Many pictures are missing here, I probably will be critisized, but that´s my toughts.
    Don´t get me wrong, a vintage Z will be always a Vintage Z, but I think my car is better them it car that is for sale.


    Filipe Azevedo

  10. #10
    Registered User FilipeA's Avatar
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    HI

    I can put some more if you want....













    Filipe Azevedo
    Last edited by FilipeA; 05-14-2008 at 09:47 AM.

  11. #11
    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    Filipe,
    Your reasoning is the reason Nissan stopped the program early-they found out that the restomod costs were more than they bargained for even taking some reasonable shortcuts. When commitment leads budget, the job details will almost always be better than when Budget curtails commitment.
    These cars are important because of what they are(a manufacturer establishing a program to refurbish and resell their own used cars as new ones), not the level of detail in their restomod. I can't bring myself to call the program cars resorations because Nissan had the ability to truely restore the cars and clearly chose not to-No Z in the early seventies came from Japan with a program plaque on the console, program stickers on the windows, or a certificate of authenticy-much less reprinted manuals.
    The car in this thread is a beautiful example of a program car-not a true Restoration.
    Compare a Program car to a true #1 stock class car they are not the same. The best kept unaltered Program car will lose points (for the nonstock items added by the program) in the stock class of a ZCCA show, and not loose any in the modified classes-meaning as a restoration, it does not measure up-clean or not.
    That doesn't mean I don't want it!
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 05-14-2008 at 10:08 AM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

  12. #12
    The alphabet begins w/ Z. AndysPlit's Avatar
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    In my opinion part of the allure of the VZ's is historical. Aside from the obvious fact that it's a Z, what else makes these cars special is the fact that no other car manufactuer ever had a program like this. That in itself make these select 240's unique.

    1978 Datsun 280Z (owned since Aug 1997)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    Hi

    I have to put my sincerely toughts about this car that I already started to say something listed above.
    My restoration program, make me spend much money on parts and seraching of perfection and new parts.

    As "westpak" said there is some parts on the car makes me think that I probably did a restoration better them this on my car.
    Hi Filipe:
    You are doing a wonderful job on your Z - it is truly beautiful. You are also doing it in a part of the world where obtaining the needed/desired parts is most difficult.

    If you have found and purchased 500 New Old Stock (NOS) parts - you have now replaced about one third of the NOS parts that Nissan used on each of the Vintage Z's.


    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    In my restoration, I did / put

    INTERIOR

    - new dash, new vinil (chassi and seats) , new door panels, new rubber set OEM(bought few weeks ago), new steering wheel, new heater control panel, new 5 speed ball, new plastic interior, new door arm rest, new rear mirror viewer, door locks, window handles, and many other stuff that my english words don`t come by....
    Your English is nearly perfect. Many of the new parts you bought, you were able to buy because of the Vintage Z Program. Nissan worked with aftermarket suppliers to have OEM quality reproduction parts made for the Vintage Z Program, and for people like you and I to be able to buy. All the interior plastic panels, the seat upholstery, the diamond vinyl upholstery, decals, rubber bushings, sheetmetal replacements for the rear hatch threshold among many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    ENGINE Compartiment

    - Engine rebuilt with OEM piston bearings, new head bolts, new shocks, new fuel, water, oil pump, new plastic fan blade and fan cluctch, zinc all parts, new brake master cilider, new cluct cilinder, new complete OEM exaust, new disc brakes, and as above many other stuff
    Nissan sent the engines to their engine remanufacturing facility so the VZ engines were rebuilt to OEM spec.'s. They sent the transmissions to their transmission rebuild facility for complete rebuild. The rear ends were also rebuilt. Likewise the complete brake system, clutch system, cooling system, exhaust system etc etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    - Exterior

    new paint, all new datsun symbol, new tyres, new front and side headlights, re-chrome bumpers, OEM nissan bumpers rubbers (all) and many other stuff
    The VZ's received the same...

    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    Take a look at my pictures... if I had the center console symbol it will be a Vintage Z Car
    If you had a Vintage Z, you would have one of the 38 cars completed during this very unique Program. When you are done, you will have a very beautifully completed 240-Z, and certainly very rare example in Europe. However you will have one of several hundred restored 240-Z's.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    Many pictures are missing here, I probably will be critisized, but that´s my toughts.
    I'm not criticizing your thoughts - only I believe you have a basic misunderstanding of the extent Nissan went to when they remanufactured the Vintage Z's.

    Many people also believe that they would rather have a Restored 240-Z, than one of the Vintage Z's. Everyone is entitled to own what they want. Many people would rather do the restoration/refresh/restromod themselves and that is wonderful as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA View Post
    Don´t get me wrong, a vintage Z will be always a Vintage Z, but I think my car is better them it car that is for sale.
    Filipe Azevedo
    "Better" is a very subjective term. If you think your Z is better, then that is certainly true for you and many people would agree it is better for them as well. I believe that for the money paid - $35K to $40K a Vintage Z represents a better value today, and they will most likely represent higher values in the future.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.
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  14. #14
    Registered User Oiluj's Avatar
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    I agree with Carl's comments above. The VZ has historical value that a owner-restored Z will not likely have.

    Of course, my Z won't be quite as nice as either the VZ or Filipe's, so what do I know...
    Julio
    1972 240Z (in-progress, 95% complete)
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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FilipeA
    I can put some more if you want....
    Please don't!
    Personally, I don't understand why you hijacked this thread. If you want to do a thread about your car then do a thread about your car. Oh, wait, you already have done several threads about your car. This thread has nothing to do with your car. Your car is nice, and I applaud your efforts but it really has nothing to do with the car being discussed here.
    Last edited by sblake01; 05-14-2008 at 01:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01 View Post
    Your car is nice, and I applaud your efforts but it really has nothing to do with the car being discussed here.
    Maybe not, but it was still interesting to read the response from Carl, that clearly points out the extent of the restoration process that these "program" cars went through in comparison to FilipeA's restoration. If anything, this intrusion served to enlighten me somewhat.

  17. #17
    Registered User bobc's Avatar
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    Default My VZ

    Thanks eveyone! This has sure been an interesting road to travel so far and it's only been one day. To all that have commented, thank you. I keep getting emails from people who tell me they sold or bought their Z for significantly less and that I'm dreaming if I think I can sell it for this. Well, I guess everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I have no idea why anyone would take the time to write an email like that. It just seems weird. Do you think they'd complain if their neighbor sold his house for a really high price so the value of their house went up too? Hmmm, I just don't get it.

    All of your comments have seriously started me rethinking this decision, so don't be surprised if I change my mind about selling it. About the gas tank, I'm embarrassed. I used a shop rag to wipe it off and some of the red lint pulled out into the undercoating. I need to clean it off again with a towel. The flash really makes that show up. Bad on me!!!

    FYI, I think there are something like 47 people watching the auction now.

    Best to all. And even I sell it, I've still got a 70 Z, so I plan to still be here!

  18. #18
    Registered User mally002's Avatar
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    Bobc,

    Good luck with the auction, my Orange one went last month on ebay and I know what you mean about all the nut job questions.....I'm curious from your description, what car are you "lusting" for?

    Take care,

    Randy

    1970 240Z HLS30 00797 White / Blue

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    BobC
    That car is too beautiful, special, and desirable to let go!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

  20. #20
    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobc View Post
    ...snip.... I keep getting emails from people who tell me they sold or bought their Z for significantly less and that I'm dreaming if I think I can sell it for this.
    ...snip... Do you think they'd complain if their neighbor sold his house for a really high price so the value of their house went up too? Hmmm, I just don't get it....
    Emphasis mine.

    Bob:
    That's EXACTLY what I've been telling people here for years!

    Personally I hope that you DO get that and more! More to the point, I wish I had the money to bid on your car, but I don't, but if your car goes up in value, mine, even not being a VZ program car, nor even in the same "class" would go up in value too.

    I agree with the individual that mentioned that the real detriment to Z prices going up are the Z owners that nay-say any increase in their value. I'm not planning on selling, but I do want to garner a bit more respect for my car at open marque cruise-in's.

    FWIW
    E

  21. #21
    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Default preach it, E!

    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    Bob:
    That's EXACTLY what I've been telling people here for years!

    Personally I hope that you DO get that and more! More to the point, I wish I had the money to bid on your car, but I don't, but if your car goes up in value, mine, even not being a VZ program car, nor even in the same "class" would go up in value too.

    I agree with the individual that mentioned that the real detriment to Z prices going up are the Z owners that nay-say any increase in their value. I'm not planning on selling, but I do want to garner a bit more respect for my car at open marque cruise-in's.

    FWIW
    E

    I agree, Enrique. I've noticed that the folks who need to restore their Z want prices to stay down, while those who've finished or bought a restored one want them to go up...probably not a coincidence.

    The Japanese imports, the Z in particular, are getting more routine coverage in collector/classic car mags, evidenced by the big spread on Datsun in the current Hemmings Sports and Exotic (even if some key facts are incorrect). They even profiled a B210--Whahuh!? Increasing profile should generate more demand/interest in buying, restoring and showing these cars, and their value should improve accordingly. Fingers crossed.

    Hopefully some deep pocketed collector is looking to catch the next rising wave of collector interest in early Asian imports and will take a liking to the VZ car listed, paying big money for it. I don't see much downside to that purchase, even at 35-40k, given its rare history and interesting storyline.

    Bob, don't listen to the haters. Yours is unique to the Z timeline and should be valued accordingly. Even if it doesn't sell, it may generate some buzz and get sold later down the line.
    Last edited by xray; 05-14-2008 at 07:04 PM.
    Steve

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  22. #22
    Fired Up! JLPurcell's Avatar
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    I believe this is the car which sold in Nov 06, The then owner was Attorney Danny Thraikill from Mena Arkansas. I believe it sold for between 20K - 24K.
    JLP
    Jerry Purcell
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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    I don't know and I could be wrong, but I believe I've seen that car in Bob's posession via the So Cal show circuit for longer than that.
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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobc View Post
    FYI, I think there are something like 47 people watching the auction now.
    I wonder how many of the watchers are members of this forum, just interested in seeing what happens?
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Registered User bobc's Avatar
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    Jerry,

    You're right. It came from Mena, Arkansas and I can personally vouch that you can't get there from anywhere! Danny is a great guy. Price was more than you posted, but I'm not telling!

    Bob

    P.S. I'm back to my good old BRG!
    Last edited by bobc; 05-14-2008 at 08:39 PM.

  26. #26
    Registered User JoelH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    I wonder how many of the watchers are members of this forum, just interested in seeing what happens?
    I'm 1/47 of that watch list.
    Joel

    72 240Z (HLS30-98389)(8/72) Lime

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    Hopefully the reserve is fairly high. Right now the Euro is .650:1USD or less. The right European buyer could snatch this up for less than 20K Euro at reserve of $30K. If this goes through to sale, watch for it to be leaving the country. This was indeed a very special program. I was at the debut and auction of one of the first cars.
    Rob
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  28. #28
    Mike B
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    Default The one that got away

    In 2001 I lived in San Antonio and there was a red VZ that came up for auction at a Kruse auction in the area (not Bob's I don't think). I had been away from Z's for a few years and was interested in possibly getting a deal on that one. I didn't realize only 38 VZ cars had been made at the time. Something came up and I couldn't go make it to the auction. It wound up selling for $12,750.

    http://www.kruse.com/results/detail....SULTS=1&PAGE=1

    The buyer listed it on ebay within a week after he bought it. I'm not sure what it sold it for, but I think he made a pretty good return for owning it a week or two. Here is the only picture from the Kruse auction results page, in case that ever goes away.



    -Mike
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    I'm one of the 40-some-odd watching the auction. Best of Luck, Bob!

    $29,000 in 1997 money is $37,000 today. The prices we have been seeing for Vintage Zs is not low at all. In fact it indicates that the cars are depreciating in value.

    I would like to ask a favor from all of you. When you see a Vintage Z like the one Mike posted above, get the serial number please. And send me the info. Many thanks. If any of you have pictures of Vintage Zs, and know the serial number of the pictured car, let me know.

    Chris
    Enjoy the Ride
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    The alphabet begins w/ Z. AndysPlit's Avatar
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    I'll keep my eyes peeled. Oh, and I'm watching this auction too.

    1978 Datsun 280Z (owned since Aug 1997)
    1986 Nissan 300ZX 2+2 (SOLD!)
    1996 Nissan 300ZX 2+2 (daily driver)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    I'm one of the 40-some-odd watching the auction. Best of Luck, Bob!

    $29,000 in 1997 money is $37,000 today. The prices we have been seeing for Vintage Zs is not low at all. In fact it indicates that the cars are depreciating in value.

    Chris
    Chris,
    Did you mean to say "appreciating"?

    Dan

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    While we sit around and watch the action perhaps we would like to talk about the restoration program. It was mentioned that parts were reproduced especially for the program. Here is the cover of a brochure that listed specific parts manufactured. Part design and specifications were released to private manufacturers to supply the program. Support businesses were also used. Carl mentioned the engines and transmissions.

    "A wide assortment of particularly detailed replica parts were provided by Banzai Motorworks in Upper Marlboro, Maryland. Although Mike McGinnis of Banzai Motorworks did not restore any cars, he provided detailed replica parts including new identification plates to replace damaged originals. In addition to a wide assortment of rubber parts, Mike provided instructional and identification decals that were on the original production cars. As the program progressed, Steve Richardson of Courtesy Nissan in Richardson, Texas became involved and distributed updated air-conditioning kits for the cars. AER Manufacturing in Arlington, Texas, widely know for their capabilities and reputation with Ford products, became involved with engine remanufacturing. Automatic transmissions were remanufactured by Williams Technology of Summerville, South Carolina. A cast of thousands would appropriately describe the number businesses that became involved as the program expanded. Over eighteen different paint and body establishments repaired body shells."
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    Dan,

    To keep pace with an original investment of $29,000 on a Vintage Z in 1997, the car would have to sell for over $37,000 today. That was what I was trying to point out. Of course, Carl points out (to my chagrin) that it would cost well over $40,000 to restore a car to that level today. Either way, I think the cars are a great value.
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    Yes, dissing the Vintage Program and the resulting cars seems to be a fairly common thing among some 240Z enthusiasts, apparently because of the above mentioned 'resto-mod' approach that was taken. People tend to compare them to true 'restorations' when - in my mind - they should be thought of as a very special limited edition car.

    Face it folks, regardless of how 'original' you consider these cars to be, the investment and effort expended for a mere 38 (or so) cars may never be seen again. That alone makes these cars something special.

    Only a very historically significant model will get treatment like this. It will probably never happen again. About the only other manufacturer-backed projects that that even approach this in concept would be the British Motor Heritage replacement MG bodyshells. And even that is nowhere near the same, as all they did was provide the shells. The rest is/was up to the restorers.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    Dan,

    To keep pace with an original investment of $29,000 on a Vintage Z in 1997, the car would have to sell for over $37,000 today. That was what I was trying to point out. Of course, Carl points out (to my chagrin) that it would cost well over $40,000 to restore a car to that level today. Either way, I think the cars are a great value.
    I was likewise thinking you meant to say "appreciating". I guess it all depends on how you formulate your calculations. Not my strong point, but it would be understandable to me that each of these cars would suffer varying degrees of a depreciation factor since their restorations, simply because of the time that has passed since the "program" and the amount of use each has endured. The unique/rarity aspect of being 1 of 38, complete with the "specially supplied program parts" is what I believe will always be an appreciating factor. Bottom line, they are like any other car and only worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Would you agree now is the time to buy if you were in the market? I think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    Would you agree now is the time to buy if you were in the market? I think so.
    Better now than in a few years, but best time would have been about 5 years ago.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndysPlit View Post
    In my opinion part of the allure of the VZ's is historical. Aside from the obvious fact that it's a Z, what else makes these cars special is the fact that no other car manufactuer ever had a program like this. That in itself make these select 240's unique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arne
    About the only other manufacturer-backed projects that that even approach this in concept would be the British Motor Heritage replacement MG bodyshells. And even that is nowhere near the same, as all they did was provide the shells. The rest is/was up to the restorers.
    Arne,
    MG 'shells were only one aspect of that policy. Just off the top of my head I can cite Triumph and at least two different series of Mini bodyshells, as well as many other parts. And I'm sure you'd agree with me that it would have been very nice indeed if Nissan had ever made replacement 'shells for S30-series Z cars......



    I'm sure I'll be accused of sounding like a stuck record here, but it seems the point needs making again......
    Nissan USA's 'Vintage Z Program' was only "unique" if you allow certain distinctions to be made. Other manufacturers ( E.G. Bristol, Morgan & Aston Martin to name but three ) have had a continuing policy of buying back used cars, restoring them in-house, and then selling them again. Admittedly this was usually done on a case-by-case basis, and not as part of a 'campaign' dreamed up by their advertising departments and given huge publicity, but it happened nonetheless. It still happens, too.

    Personally I believe that the 'Vintage Z Program' was a very clever - not to mention timely - publicity stunt that delivered a lot more media attention and column inches than the money it cost could have given if it were just a plain vanilla ad campaign. It could be argued that the project is still having some effect, as the cars themselves are still generating interest and discussion. I've seen one of the cars ( in Japan, funnily enough ) and I thought it was wonderful. I think they are undervalued as usable, viable cars - let alone "investments" ( a nebulous concept at the best of times ).


    At least less people on forums like ours are calling these cars "Factory Restorations" these days. I'd put a lot of that down to the fine work of Mr Chris Wenzel, whose research thesis on the VZ Program and the story surrounding it is a fine document indeed. I doff my cap to him.



    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    ........

    I'm sure I'll be accused of sounding like a stuck record here, but it seems the point needs making again......
    Nissan USA's 'Vintage Z Program' was only "unique" if you allow certain distinctions to be made. Other manufacturers ( E.G. Bristol, Morgan & Aston Martin to name but three ) have had a continuing policy of buying back used cars, restoring them in-house, and then selling them again. Admittedly this was usually done on a case-by-case basis, and not as part of a 'campaign' dreamed up by their advertising departments and given huge publicity, but it happened nonetheless. It still happens, too.
    .......
    You can't compare those programs from limited models, limited production and market companies to an attempt by a company the size of Nissan. Yes it was a publicity event but you have to admire that a company that size could get in agreement and put something like it together

    I for one being new to this am glad that these subjects come up and I learn about the process and what went into them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westpak View Post
    You can't compare those programs from limited models, limited production and market companies to an attempt by a company the size of Nissan. Yes it was a publicity event but you have to admire that a company that size could get in agreement and put something like it together

    "Limited models, limited production and market companies......"?

    So the NMC USA 'Vintage Z Program' is "unique" in the automotive world because none of the other companies that have bought back, restored and then sold their own products are, er, Nissan - and none of the other cars were 240Zs? Sounds to me like you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the hyperbole surrounding the campaign and a lot of the garbage that was written and talked about it subsequently.

    We've been through all this before. The NMC USA 'Vintage Z Program' was only "unique in the automotive world" if you totally ignore the activities of companies such as Bristol, Morgan and Aston Martin. Not enough volume for you? Well, think again - Bristol alone have done it with a lot more than just 38 cars. You want even more? Try Trabant - who used to do it with thousands of cars. You can be excused for missing their media campaign trumpeting the fact though......




    BobC,
    I hope your car sells, and I hope you get the sale price something like this deserves. I think it is seriously undervalued. I like the wording of your eBay auction: None of the nonsense that some of the previous eBay auctions of VZ Program cars have had attached to them. Good!


    Alan T.

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    Love the car. Worth every penny IMHO. I hope you get the money for it Bob.
    Mark
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    Thank you, Alan. Yes, I did quite a bit of research and wrote a piece about the program. This was in 2005 and I planned to present the work to the ZCCA at their convention in Syracuse. I did not realize that Pete Evanow was to publish his book at that time and my work became a little overshadowed to say the least. At the time (2004), we were having heated conversations about "factory" involvement and "restoration" quality. I realized that very little was known about the program as the "facts" were being thrown about like a whirling durbish.

    Over a period of a year, I collected an amazing bibliography, cataloged 28 cars, and obtained some great collectable items. I own a full PR package on the Dream Garage campaign including the films. I have two different copies of Pierre's private films from the time. I have a collection of private corporate files from one of the Nissan management staff who worked on the project. And my ultimate is a "Life is a Journey, Enjoy the Ride" display banner that Mr. Katayama signed for me in Syracuse. Other major components of the history are still around and in the hands of a couple of private collectors. I would say with all humility that I probably know about as much as anyone could know who wasn't there!

    "The Vintage Z program was a portion of the Z-Store program; a marketing campaign designed to fill a market niche, demonstrate a commitment to consumer orientation, and promote brand identity. It could be suggested that the Vintage Z program filled the hole left by the discontinuation of the Z car until a new model could be introduced, however evidence suggests that this would be a coincidence; a result of events. The Z-Store program traces its roots to the unprecedented advertising and market positioning campaign known as the “Dream Garage” or “Life is a Journey” campaign. Initiated during the closing ceremonies of the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, the unprecedented two minute Dream Garage commercial kicked off Nissan’s intentions to increase brand identification and loyalty, respond to consumer demands, and obtain import leadership in the United States. During a period of slumped sales and fiscal losses, the $200 million campaign intended to reverse trend."

    "The “Dream Garage” featured the spirit of Yutaka Katayama and his personal philosophy as the foundation of the Nissan brand, employing the company heritage and commitment to truth and honesty in support. From the extensions of that ad campaign came the concept to restore and sell the car which had brought Nissan fame. Reaction from the automotive press was excitingly favorable. Test drives reported high praise and a nostalgic smile from the author. The car was received very well. As might be expected from Nissan’s publicity efforts, media coverage was extensive."

    "It was (is) no simple task to completely disassemble, repair, and refurbish 38 cars in a period of seventeen months. The lofty goal was to refurbish 200 cars in 20 months. Demand for the Vintage Zs quickly outpaced supply and efforts to resolve the issue did not help. Replacement part availability became an immediate issue. Although the program used up a significant amount of stock, a considerable number of parts were either remanufactured or replicated. Combined, the time constraint and part availability issues resulted in a controversial restoration. The quality and workmanship was good but the accuracy of unique model part features was not. In addition, certain liberties were taken with the inclusion of aftermarket products and customer requested modifications. Typically, many aspects of the vehicle restoration included upgraded specifications for performance and durability reasons."

    "Market demand waned as the waiting time increased for a Vintage Z and the proposed price increased. Dealers simply could not promote a car they could not get. Dark clouds were looming for Nissan’s financial health and with corporate restructuring attempts on the horizon, funding was discontinued and the Z-Store was closed."



    There are still a few holes in the history. I have found about 28 cars and they are posted on Carl's web site. Carl takes Evanow's list of serial numbers and extracts two cars (I believe?) which Nissan kept. Then, we found one that is on Pete's list but is obviously not a Vintage Z restoration. I have a few serial numbers that are not on Evanow's list however we can't find the cars. One of Evanow's notes in my collection says that 42 cars were restored yet he lists 38 cars in his book. One of the restoration shops has completely vanished. It just isn't a resolved thing. We're working on the 38 car premise at the moment.
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    Hi Chris,

    So is there a book on this subject you have completed and is available for sale? If so, where do we get it?

    Also, I don't have the VIN #, but has the VZ I posted about from the 2001 Kruse auction been accounted for? I know it was a long time ago, but did you or anyone document the results of its subsequent sale on eBay?

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Better now than in a few years, but best time would have been about 5 years ago.
    That's dependant on an individuals particular currency. As an example 5 years ago the Canadian dollar was trading at .57 cents US. As Conedodger has pointed out world wide currency values have risen sharply against the US dollar, making this car in question an outright bargain.

    Edit: But, we don't know what the reserve is.
    Last edited by geezer; 05-16-2008 at 08:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    Then, we found one that is on Pete's list but is obviously not a Vintage Z restoration. I have a few serial numbers that are not on Evanow's list however we can't find the cars. One of Evanow's notes in my collection says that 42 cars were restored yet he lists 38 cars in his book. One of the restoration shops has completely vanished. It just isn't a resolved thing. We're working on the 38 car premise at the moment.
    I am the new owner of #98389. It is listed as #38 in Evanow's book and held by NNA. It is definitely not one of the Vintage Z's, but a very nice car nonetheless.
    Joel

    72 240Z (HLS30-98389)(8/72) Lime

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    While the focus of this discussion so far is rightfully centered on the "Nissan Vintage Z Program", I think it is important to also keep the far larger picture in mind. The Nissan Vintage Z Program within the overall concept of "the Z Store", could really be viewed as the visible symbol of a far more extensive Corporate Strategy.

    The far large picture is one of a $200,000,000.00 Marketing Campaign originated and funded by Nissan Motors Ltd. I believe that one could correctly call it a "Brand Image - Marketing Campaign". (although I make no claim to be a Marketing Major). The Brand image that needed improvement, was the NISSAN Brand, here in its largest export market - the U.S.A.

    The Marketing Campaign itself, can most certainly be logically sub-divided into the smaller components of Market Research, Public Relations, Event Organization, Corporate Communications, Sales and Advertising for the purposes of discussion, but we shouldn't view the tail (advertising) as wagging the dog (Marketing) nor its owner (Nissan Motors Ltd).

    With Nissan Motors Ltd. some $12B in the red in 1996, top management at Nissan Motors Ltd. underwent significant change. Mr. Hanawa was handed the reigns of a major corporation headed at high speed toward the cliff of bankruptcy. The question was; could he turn it around soon enough to avert disaster?

    Taking the leadership position as President, Nissan Motors Ltd., Mr. Hanawa knew he needed the help of a financially strong partner to save Nissan, and the process of making Nissan Motors Ltd. look a little more attractive to potential suitors began.

    It was Mr. Hanawa that made the decision to enhance the Nissan Brand, by returning to Nissan's heritage in order to reestablish the connection in the consumers minds - between the glory days of DATSUN here in the U.S.A. and it's current Brand Name - Nissan. Glory Days??.... Yes the days of rapid growth, high profit margins and #1 or #2 Import Sales Positions.

    While the concept of "the Z Store" itself - ie. repurchasing, remanufacturing and reselling Classic and later model used Z Cars is said to have been the brainchild of Bob Thomas, President NMC USA, it would be a grave mistake to think that he would have reintroduced both the DATSUN brand name, and the image of Mr. K without the specific direction to do so, from his boss in Japan, Mr. Hanawa.

    Mr. Hanawa's willingness to reconnect Nissan Motors Ltd. with its Datsun/Katayama heritage in the USA was a stark turnaround of 20 years of corporate banishment and a very gutsy move. That was followed by the beginning of an all but complete redesign of Nissan's automobile offerings at a time when funds for such projects were in very limited supply.

    While Mr. Ghosn got to write the book after the fact, and hold center stage as the beginnings of Nissan's new models hit the market - - as far as I can see it was Mr. Hanawa's leadership and quick action that really saved Nissan Motors Ltd.

    So as a part of Nissan Corporate History, and its place in the history of the automobile industry, when you see a Nissan Vintage Z - that symbol should invoke thoughts of a far more comprehensive strategy to save a dying giant. As Datsun Enthusiasts here in the USA, we should also say a prayer of thanks to Mr. Hanawa... he returned not only the Z Car to us, but restored the rightful place of honor that both DATSUN and Mr. Katayama deserved in Nissan's corporate history.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    ...repurchasing, remanufacturing and reselling Classic and later model used Z Cars ...
    Carl,

    Were cars other than 240z's repurchased, remanufactured, and resold? What do you mean by "later model" used Z cars?

    -Mike

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    Hi Mike:
    As originally conceived - the Z Store plan was to offer both Vintage Z's and later model "Classic Z's. There was no need, and thus no plan to remanufacture the used Z32's..... just inspect/repair and offer them ....


    From a Nissan Press Release: Nov. 20, 1996 "Z-Store Of The Future".

    " "Through our new Z-Store concept, we are partnering with select
    Nissan retailers to demonstrate our heritage and prove our commitment
    to the consumer by offering reconditioned Z-cars -- a model line that
    is legendary in the automotive world," said Tom Orbe, vice president of
    marketing for Nissan and Infiniti Divisions. "We are really excited
    about this program because it allows us to offer consumers what they
    are requesting in an imaginative new way. We hope consumers and
    enthusiasts alike share in our excitement."
    Individuals that purchase Z-cars from Z-Store retailers will receive
    a number of amenities including a special-edition bronze badge, decal
    and certificate as well as easy access to purchase Z memorabilia.
    This program will be implemented in two phases; the first featuring
    "Classic Z's," which include 1990 to 1996 300ZX model pre-owned cars,
    followed by pre-owned Z-cars from the Z's 26-year history including
    early model Z-cars beginning with the 240Z ("Vintage Z").

    "Classic Z"
    Kicking off Phase I of the Z-Store will be the offering of "Classic Z."
    Differentiating this program, from other off-lease programs is an intensive
    120-point inspection that each vehicle must pass before being offered
    for sale in a Z-Store. These cars will also carry Nissan's Certified
    Pre-owned Limited Warranty and "Classic Z" badging.

    "Vintage Z"
    Cruising into Z-Stores early next year will be reconditioned
    "Vintage Z." These restored early model Z-cars will also include a
    limited warranty and should prove to be collector cars in the future."


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Isn't the cardinal rule in collecting the rarity of a particular piece? With only 37 ever built in the world, I can't imagine how many other production cars are this rare...in all of the world.

    To imagine a car built in the hundreds of thousands, then to be reduced to a tiny list of only a few dozen...wow.

    Gorgeous car!

    2/71 240Z, HLS30-23788. 920 Gold/Black. California car. 5-speed, otherwise all original/paint, stickers & matching #'s. Driven almost daily over my local "road course" along a river. Performing thorough mechanical restoration, using only OEM parts to not ruin the provenance as an "original" car. Please check out my Flickr photostream!
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    Thanks for the clarification Carl. Interesting that Nissan referred to the then current Z32 as the "Classic Z's". Do you know if any of them were sold and badged as Classic Z's? If so, how many, and do they have any additional value?

    Also the press release above says "followed by pre-owned Z-cars from the Z's 26-year history including early model Z-cars beginning with the 240Z (Vintage Z)." Did Nissan ever really take any steps towards remanufacturing any later Z's or was that just a marketing ploy?

    -Mike

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    Ah, British racing green. The color of my first 240Z. Its a very good color. Instead of reading the forum, I assumed that the british racing green Z was the one from Nissan.

    Appologies FilipeA. That is quality. I am a fool.

    Sincerly,
    AggieZ
    Last edited by AggieZ; 05-16-2008 at 06:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    Thanks for the clarification Carl. Interesting that Nissan referred to the then current Z32 as the "Classic Z's". Do you know if any of them were sold and badged as Classic Z's? If so, how many, and do they have any additional value?
    Hi Mike:
    I have a vague memory of Courtesy Nissan offering one or two "Classic Z's".... but I was never interested in that part of the program, and it seems to have been dropped fairly shortly after the Vintage Z Roll-Out. Since there were still plenty of 90-96 300ZX's in the used car market, mostly with reasonably low mileage and good care - there really wasn't much demand for them at the Dealership level.

    I'll check with the guys at Courtesy, someone there might remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
    Also the press release above says "followed by pre-owned Z-cars from the Z's 26-year history including early model Z-cars beginning with the 240Z (Vintage Z)." Did Nissan ever really take any steps towards remanufacturing any later Z's or was that just a marketing ploy?

    -Mike
    Things were still really up in the air at the beginning of the Z Store launch.. and I believe that many of the people at Nissan were still more or less playing it by ear. Had there been a huge demand for Classic Z's (their use of the term), perhaps that aspect might have gained some momentum. To the best of my knowledge Nissan did not intend to offer any Z's in that program other than the 70-72 240-Z's and the 90-96 300ZX's.

    There was some discussion related to taking 240-Z's into the Vintage Z process, that were privately owned, and whoes owners were willing to pay the $24K cost to have their 240-Z's redone... but that never happened as the reality of the situation became apparent - ie they really did not have the necessary stocks of NOS parts to do more cars, and the actual costs were exceeding the planned costs by a wide margin. Not to mention simply not being able to get that many cars done is such a short timeframe.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    There are many "sub-stories" to the Vintage Z story that make the whole affair quite interesting and contribute to the value of the cars. Carl paints a deeper picture of the corporate atmosphere during this period. Indeed Nissan was in trouble financially and the announcement that the Z would be discontinued in America was not received very well. Two events, Z-America Relay and the 1995 ZCCA convention in Atlanta, coincide with the placement of Mr. Yoshikazu Hanawa as corpoate president and CEO of Nissan Motor Corporation. Hanawa and Katayama are friends and share common corporate philosophy.

    "The Z Car Club Association national convention was held in Atlanta in 1995. Henry Costanzo, president of the Georgia Z Club directed the efforts of over twenty planning committee leaders. “We are delighted to have Mr. Yutaka Katayama attending our convention”, read the event program. “We are greatly honored that Mr. Katayama will be joining us for the 25th Anniversary Celebration of the Z Car”.

    Henry recalls the circumstances surrounding the invitation to Yutaka Katayama.
    “Upon his retirement, Mr. Katayama returned to Japan and had not been back in any official capacity since. The idea to invite Mr. K and celebrate the appreciation Z car owners had for him and “his” car, seemed unique and exciting”."


    Z-America Relay ended at the convention in Atlanta. This picture was taken by helicopter at Road Atlanta.

    "It cannot be understated what a large impact these events had on the direction of the future. Articles appeared in the Japanese press concerning the popularity Mr. Katayama was receiving in the United States. People throughout the industry noticed this most extraordinary expression of consumer orientation and brand loyalty. Concurrently, during this time frame, the automotive press covered the placement of a new President / CEO of Nissan Motor Corporation; Mr. Yoshikazu Hanawa. Nissan leaders were celebrated in the press and conversations dealt with the future direction of Nissan."

    "One of the convention events was a nighttime drive up to Stone Mountain for a laser light show. Arrangements were made for the lasers to express a special welcome to Mr. K and at the end of the show, a reception line formed to greet Mr. K. Z car after Z car paraded past the enthusiastic celebrity who had no idea how revered he was by so many Z enthusiasts. Henry adds;
    “We decided to do the Laser Light Show up at Stone Mountain and when I made the arrangements, they told me for an extra $100 they could put up “Welcome Georgia Z Club, Welcome ZCCA, Welcome Mr. K”, so we did it. After the show, we had Mr. K in a receiving line / parade of Z cars – over 100 of them – and the man was to the point of tears. He had no idea how popular he was and how many appreciated his efforts to bring the Z car to America”."


    There are some other key incidents that play into the story, however it is fair to see how well Bob Thomas' plan for a $200 million ad campagin was received. Mr. K was reintroduced to America and the Z-Store program was put into place. Initially, it was a special sales program to sell a very large stock of leased 300ZXs and was announced at the Z retirement party - Peterson Automotive Museum.

    Carl, I don't think Nissan ever admitted loosing money on any of the Vintage Z restorations. I have Z-Store releases that say they made money on them. I thought we just finished dispelling the rumor that the program ended over lack of parts. It didn't. It ended over the inability to produce 200 cars for sale with a 12 month / 12,000 warrenty in a period of 20 months. Nissan, employing four different restoration shops and eighteen body shops, couldn't meet the demand. Why eighteen different body shops? What is forgotten is that during this period, Southern California experienced rainy weather for a long period. Body shops were swamped with collision work. What seemed to be a fairly simple task turned into a management nightmare. "Sales waned as dealers couldn't sell cars they couldn't get". Nissan decided to focus on the new Z and funding for the program was discontinued.
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  53. #53
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    Here is some Z-Store literature.
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    (quote)Thanks for the clarification Carl. Interesting that Nissan referred to the then current Z32 as the "Classic Z's". Do you know if any of them were sold and badged as Classic Z's? If so, how many, and do they have any additional value?

    I have a vague memory of Courtesy Nissan offering one or two "Classic Z's".... but I was never interested in that part of the program, and it seems to have been dropped fairly shortly after the Vintage Z Roll-Out. Since there were still plenty of 90-96 300ZX's in the used car market, mostly with reasonably low mileage and good care - there really wasn't much demand for them at the Dealership level. (quote)

    The "Classic Z" was the initial portion of the Z-Store program prior to the introduction of the Vintage Z. There were plenty of 300 ZXs on the used car market; they were lease trade-ins and the dealers had them. That's why they initiated the "Classic Z" sales program. I do not know how many 300ZXs were sold this way, but they came with a certificate and bronze plaque. I see them occasionally on eBay Motors. Contrary to what Carl has posted, the Classic Z was half the Z-Store program.

    No other models were involved. Just the S30 and the Z32. Special 240Zs were restored for specific customers, however. HLS30-08808 was built as the "240-ZR". Photo below. HLS30-00222 was built for Morrrie Sage and Keith Crane, publisher of AutoWeek, had one custom built.
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    Default Thanks a lot!

    Hey Chris and Carl,

    You guys are making it very tough for me to sell this car. Geeezzzz!!!

    Bob

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    "Z" and "buying" go together, "Z" and "selling", not so much....

    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Sorry, Bob. Didn't mean to hijack the thread either. The Vintage Z story is a great blurb of automotive history and I love talking about it. I appreciate the cars very much and agree with their distinctive value. And thanks to Carl and his mentioning the Hanawa connection, I did a little more research into Bob Thomas and the corporate climate surrounding these events. Found a couple af very interesting articles.

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    Default Update

    Thought I'd give you guys an update. There's 155 people watching the auction. I bet at least 154 of them belong to this club!

    I've had several offers that are above the minimum that I may consider if I don't hit my reserve, but nobody's even bid on it yet! I'm hoping it's that "post your bid in the last 15 seconds" ebay syndrome thing!

    Best,

    Bob

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    I think there are many people (including me) who would prefer to conduct transactions of this type outside the confines of Ebay. Good luck with your sale!
    Joel

    72 240Z (HLS30-98389)(8/72) Lime

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    Quote Originally Posted by westpak View Post
    Very nice Z hope to get mine to look like that some day

    One thing though that struck me was the gas tank, for a "resotred" Z it didn't look that great or is it me? everything else looks so nice.

    I think that rust is the wrong color.
    Bryan Pilati
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    [QUOTE=bobc;255293]
    About the gas tank, I'm embarrassed. I used a shop rag to wipe it off and some of the red lint pulled out into the undercoating. I need to clean it off again with a towel. The flash really makes that show up. Bad on me!!!
    QUOTE]

    Did everyone see bobc's disclaimer about the picture of his gas tank in item #17? Makes sense to me, given the quality of the restoration.

    Dan

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    I looked at Bob's gas tank this weekend. It is as clean as the rest of the car. And black it is.
    Randy Taylor
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    HLS30-23242

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    Thanks Randy, I cleaned it up and used a white cloth rag this time! Haven't had time to get under it to take a picture.

    Bob

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    Default another program zed

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsu...spagenameZWDVW
    haven't seen these on ebay for some time and now two in the last few weeks. 10K lower starting bid. maybe he'll get a bite. i seem to remember this ad, the part where he won't sell to just anybody rings a bell.
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    Hi

    Another one!!! I wish to have one of the 37, them will never sell it! Let´s see if this one is had some bids on it!!

    This is interesting from a point of view, but from another seeing 2 Vintage Z cars being sold almost at the same time, makes me sad.


    FilipeA

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    I think that is a completely phony sale... not his pictures, no VIN given.. and private sale by a seller that has "0" feedback...

    I've reported it to E-Bay
    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    I've seen several cars up for auction that were poised in front of this very garage, but not by this seller. The name of the other seller escapes me. I agree..SCAM!!

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    Ron.... the real seller is rj77777 and I've notified him that this guy is using his pictures

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    Default Scam?

    Well this one should prove interesting...Carl and I both know where these pictures were taken. But, the purchaser does live in Ma., so maybe it is real. It would sure be an incredibly low price for this car to start with because we also know what the seller paid for it and what the current owner paid for it. I understand he's put it on ebay before but the starting price was considerably more and took it off after one day after having second thoughts. I can't say that for a fact, because I didn't see it.

    Now, an update. I did sell my VZ yesterday. For the naysayers, I'll just say I'm very happy with the price, but the buyer is happy too, which is the way I wanted it to come out. I'm sure the price will leak eventually. It should help increase the value of our cars.

    Second thoughts on selling it? Oh a thousand or more and if the purchase fell through I would be just as happy as I am with selling it. One day when it's worth $300K or so, I'm sure I'll be kicking the heck out of myself.

    I learned that selling on ebay is quite an experience and in fact selling a car on ebay doesn't necessarily mean you sell it during the auction, but after when you start getting emails offering to purchase it.

    I'll be watching this one on line for sure!

    Best,

    Bob
    Last edited by bobc; 05-23-2008 at 09:39 PM.

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    Congrats Bob!
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    I will not sell the car to a person who is going to destroy the car, it's a classic and should be treated accordingly.
    I love quotes like that in ads! The real truth being that if I had a car for sale and it met the reserve and I was happy with the amount I received, what happens to it after the new owner takes ownership is out of my hands. Oh sure, I'd hate to see a FRP car turned into a 4X4 but what could you do?
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    Stephen,

    I agree. You don't want to sell "your baby" to someone who is going to destroy it, but in reality what can you really do? Once you sell it, are you going to require the buyer to send you pictures and mileage records once a year??? Once it's gone, it's gone and the new owner can do anything they want to with it, so I don't know why people put things like that in their ads.

    Also, the VZ on ebay has been pulled off. It says by the seller because it is no longer available for sale. I've written the seller to see if I can get the rest of the story. I'll post if I find out.

    Randy won't sell me his lime green VZ (at least not yet!), so I was seriously considering taking mine down to the body and having it resprayed lime-green and then putting it back together. I couldn't do it any cheaper buying another car and it certainly would never have the quality of parts a VZ starts with. And, I doubt it would have seriously hurt the value of the car. Now that idea really upset some people!

    Just noticed that mine, I'm going to have to get used to saying my former!

    Best,

    Bob
    Last edited by bobc; 05-24-2008 at 09:13 AM.

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    Default vin#

    i emailed seller and asked for the vin #. he responded at 8;12 am this morning (45 minutes before auction ended) . the vin # is HLS-60354, # 31 of 37. there was no 30 after the S.
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  74. #74
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    Yes. That was HLS30-60354 in the eBay ad.
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    Owner decided to keep it in the family.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    so the auction was real???
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    Yes. Bobc contacted the seller and also posted about it here.

    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=30691

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    An explanation is in order here. Both Carl & I recognized the location these pics were taken as the same used by another seller. That, and this seller having a 0 feedback immediately put up a red flag. I apologize if this erroneous warning caused any inconvenience to the seller or potential buyers. The protection of our members was foremost in my mind.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...spagenameZWDVW

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    Ron;
    I think that what you and Carl did is one of the most important functions of this site. Where Zhome has "static" information (not changing quickly), this site has the dynamic information, the one that can change within days and even minutes.

    Noting the possibility of a scam before it can occur is fore-warning instead of regretting.

    Between the two sites, new owners can quickly research and read years worth of information and hands-on knowledge on the Z car. If an international site with all the knowledge and information that Alan T. has at his disposal were to be available, it would literally BE the Z Encyclopaedia.

    A search on Google, Yahoo or many of the search engines with web-bots performing web indexing will report this and Zhome as the two top sites.

    Does this explain to all why it behooves us to post and act responsibly to the whole Z community and not denigrate anyone?

    My 2¢
    E

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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    An explanation is in order here. Both Carl & I recognized the location these pics were taken as the same used by another seller. That, and this seller having a 0 feedback immediately put up a red flag. I apologize if this erroneous warning caused any inconvenience to the seller or potential buyers. The protection of our members was foremost in my mind.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...spagenameZWDVW
    Thanks Ron. I posted my warning after I requested the VIN from the seller and did not get a response. Given that we now have a public list of the VZ Vins.. a none response sent up the red flag for my part.

    I also notified E-Bay that the seller was using someone else's pictures and that the description seemed to lack complete honesty.

    Much later, I did finally receive the VIN from the seller... but by then the car had been removed from E-Bay. The owner is a ligit. guy - but just handled the whole E-Bay thing wrong...As it turned out, he did find another place to keep the car in the family, and decided to keep it that way.

    An ounce of prevention... I'd do the same thing again..
    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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