1970 Engine?

[lonetreesteve]

This is my first thread to Classic Z-Cars, and I am excited to join all of you other Z-Car enthusiats! My son and I have 2 classic Z-Cars: a 1972 240 and a 1971 240. I use to have a '72 240Z when I was in college over 20 years ago and loved it! My 17 year old son and I just recently purchsed both of these cars and are currently restoring the '72 and once we complete it, we will start on the '71.
I have a question: When we purchased the '71 last week, the seller also included 4 crates of misc Z parts including a spare engine, 4-speed tranny, dash (no cracks!), console (no cracks either!). He was told that the engine was from a 1970 240Z. I would like to verify this.
Here's a description: I has the "Nissan 2400 OHC" valve cover, which is different from our '71 and '72 valve covers. It has the Hitachi SU carbs (like our '71 & '72). The ID plates on the engine block show "L24" and the number is "060039" does anyone know if this is from a '70 or is this just a later L24 block with the earlier valve cover?

[abas]

lonetreesteve

Welcome to the club

Hope we'll see more of you here as you progress with the restorations.

From my (incomplete) knowledge I would say that an engine from a car made up to the end of 1970 should have a serial number up to about L24-024000. So L24 060039 is from a later car. I would guess around sept or Oct 1971

hope it helps

[2-4-T-Z-MAN]

LONETREESTEVE,

LOOK ON THE ENGINE BLOCK, DRIVER'S SIDE TO THE RIGHT OF THE MOTOR MOUNT.
THE BLOCK NUMBER IS LOCATED THERE.
IF IT IS AN E-31 YOU HAVE A 1970.
IF IT IS AN P-30 YOU HAVE A 1971-1973.

[texasz]

Originally posted by lonetreesteve
This is my first thread to Classic Z-Cars, and I am excited to join all of you other Z-Car enthusiats! My son and I have 2 classic Z-Cars: a 1972 240 and a 1971 240. I use to have a '72 240Z when I was in college over 20 years ago and loved it! My 17 year old son and I just recently purchsed both of these cars and are currently restoring the '72 and once we complete it, we will start on the '71.
I have a question: When we purchased the '71 last week, the seller also included 4 crates of misc Z parts including a spare engine, 4-speed tranny, dash (no cracks!), console (no cracks either!). He was told that the engine was from a 1970 240Z. I would like to verify this.
Here's a description: I has the "Nissan 2400 OHC" valve cover, which is different from our '71 and '72 valve covers. It has the Hitachi SU carbs (like our '71 & '72). The ID plates on the engine block show "L24" and the number is "060039" does anyone know if this is from a '70 or is this just a later L24 block with the earlier valve cover?

I think I know the car you're talking about, I saw it for sale and considered it but too far to drive and I have my hands full already. If it's the one I'm thinking of I believe you got a great deal on it.

Wecome to the club and we'll be talking with you as your project progresses.

[lonetreesteve]

Thanks for your help on this guys!

2-4-T-Z-Man,

My son and I checked the place on the block where you said to look and it does indeed show E31 !!! The head shows E31 as well. Also, I understand that the 'Nissan 2400 OHC" on the top of the valve cover is very rare and only appeared on the 1970 240Zs and only the first 7,000 (approx) made.

I am still a little confused about the engine number. With the #060039, what does that indicate? From what you have brought to my attention, it doesn't appear that this the # sixty-thousand and thirty-nine and made in 1972 like Abas mentioned (which seemed very likely). Do you know what it means?

TexasZ,

Yes, if you were referring to the Z in Colorado, that is the one! Yes, my son and I got a great deal!

[2-4-T-Z-MAN]

Lonetreesteve,

Congratulations on having a 1970!

Sorry I really don't know the meaning of the number cut in the block, other than maybe meaning that your engine was the 60039th L24 made. ?????? Seems like a high number for that to be the answer though.

I'm sure someone in this club knows the answer and as soon as they see this thread then we'll all know.

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by lonetreesteve I am still a little confused about the engine number. With the #060039, what does that indicate? From what you have brought to my attention, it doesn't appear that this the # sixty-thousand and thirty-nine and made in 1972 like Abas mentioned (which seemed very likely). Do you know what it means?

Amazing what you learn on this board. When 2-4-T-Z-Man started talking about a number on the block on the drivers side, I thought he was off-the-wall, but I just went out and looked at my block and there it is! E31 on the block, with a raised 9901F beside it. The actual block number is on the raised pads on the passenger side rear of the block (see pic attached - mine is block 2465). The 9901F must be some kind of casting run number or something. I've never seen it before. I have an engine out of a 1978 280Z sitting in my garage, and it says N42, and has a raised number that I can't read (position is bad, and I can't raise the block off the floor right now). It looks like 5 or 6 digits. So, I know it isn't the block number (i.e., not the XXXXXth block made), but I don't know what it is...

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by lonetreesteve

I am still a little confused about the engine number. With the #060039, what does that indicate? From what you have brought to my attention, it doesn't appear that this the # sixty-thousand and thirty-nine and made in 1972 like Abas mentioned (which seemed very likely). Do you know what it means?

This means that it was the 60039th L24 engine block produced. When you take into consideration that the L24 was also used in other datsun models at the time.

I dont believe that the numbers specific to the car, but to the block ( I could be wrong, as i havent researched this, the though had never occured to me before now).

It then it becomes realistic that this number could have come from a 70's engine.

eg the 240K/skyline was also fitted with the L24 as well as the 240Z, so then 2 cars could not both have the same ingine number.

I havent seen any engine numbers for early cars.

Or

It could just be a early head on a later block.

[abas]

Lonetreesteve

Are you sure its not L24 6039 instead of 60039?

That number would be consistent with an early/mid 70 240z


regards


Andrew

[lonetreesteve]

Abas,

Yes, the number is 060039. I'm still a little confused. What 2-4-T-ZMan said makes sense, since it has the E-31 stamped on the block (as well as on the head and early 1970 valve cover). At the same time, what both Mr. Camouflage and MDBrandy said also makes a lot of sense. Perhaps there is someone else out there that will have the definitive answer...... and maybe not. Thanks to all you guys for your help on trying to find this out for my son and me.

[abas]

Lonetreesteve

This has me intrigued. I'll talk to a few people I know who might know the answer.

regards


Andrew

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by abas
Lonetreesteve

This has me intrigued. I'll talk to a few people I know who might know the answer.

Just make sure you're recognizing the difference in the numbers we're talking about. The 060039 number is raised, and cast into the block under the exhaust manifold, down near the edge of the block skirt. The number on mine actually has a letter in it ("F"). It has always been my understanding that the actual block number is punched on the raised pad next to the L24 punch, on the rear, right side of the engine (passenger side for LHD, drivers side for RHD). But then again, I had never noticed these raised casting areas on the block....

[Carl Beck]

Hi Andrew (Everyone):
As this thread had comments related to information in addition to the original question.. I'll tell you what I know, and belive to be true, at this point.

Nissan only had one production line for the L24 engines. So there is only one series of numbers stamped into them. The engine "serial" number indicates the order the complete long block came off the engine assembly line in series.

So L24-060039 is the 60,039th engine produced. It would have been installed in a 240-Z built in Oct. 1971 (10/71). The 1972 Model Year 240-Z's started production 09/71 at Chassis Serial Number 46000. (however there were a few Series II 1971 Model Year Z's produced during this change over period also).

As someone mentioned - the L24 was used in more than one Nissan Model in addition to the DATSUN 240-Z. So there are gaps in the series numbers of engines used in the Left Hand Drive 240-Z's. Some engines went into the Right Hand Drive HS30 series models after Jan. 1970 (as well as other Nissan Models). So while the HLS30 and HS30 cars had a different set of Chassis Serial Numbers - the L24 had only one set.

Engines moved from the engine assembly line - usually in what would seem to be lots of 200 or more at a time, to the Z assembly line. Nissan "Shanti" (a guess at the spelling of that, without looking it up) - was actually a sub-contractor to Nissan Motors. They built production models such as the 1600/2000 roadsters, in limited quantities, for Nissan Motors Ltd in Japan. In Oct. of 1969 the Z Car production was started there (Shanti), on the same assembly line as the 2000 Roadster..

To Date, the lowest engine serial number, installed in a 240-Z that we have located and verified is L24-2079 and it was installed in HLS30 00042 in Oct. 69. (still ran fine the last time I started it up - sold #42 to a friend of mine last year).

A specific engine, is specific to a specific 240-Z. Because each 240-Z had a Data Plate screwed to the right hand shock tower, under the hood. That Data Plate Lists the VIN of the car and the original engine serial number (thus tieing the two together and referred to as "matching numbers" if the Data Tag matches the Engine serial number stamped in the block).

All 240-Z's coming to the North American Market (and that was about 98% of them) had an additional Data Tag on the Drivers Door Jam, that lists the Date of Manufacture of the car and the VIN number. This tag was required by US Regulations to be attached to all Vehicles sold in America upon completion; so that US Motor Vehicle Safety (MVSS) and Emissions Standards could be enforced - as they are both enacted into law by "Date Of Manufacture".

The Right Hand Drive 240-Z's did not get the Date of Manufacture stamped on the cars. However it is possible to determine (within a month or two at least) their actual production dates, based on cross-referencing their engine numbers, with the dates of Manufacture of the Left Hand Drive 240-Z's and their engine serial numbers.

>2-4-T-Z Man wrote:
>IF IT IS AN E-31 YOU HAVE A 1970.
>IF IT IS AN P-30 YOU HAVE A 1971-1973.

Does "A 1970" mean that the item was "produced" during calendar year 1970; or does that mean Model Year 1970? Model Year 1970 240-Z's were produced from Oct. 1969 into Jan. 1971.

In general I find that the early L24 blocks do indeed carry a P31 casting. But so far I have not found a specific date at which the casting numbers change - consistently.

The Casting Numbers - on most parts were used for Quality Control purposes within the casting process itself. They simply help identify raw castings as well as which casting lines and/or stations any specific raw casting came off of - so if the quality of the cast parts varies - corrections can be made. Raw castings are usually processed through machining steps before they actually become a useful "Part" at a specific point in time. So any one casting could have been farther machined, to produce several different specific part numbers.


2-4-T-Z Man, I would be very interested to see any documentation from Nissan that ties a casting number to a date of manufacture or an absolute change over date. While we may be able to use casting numbers as a "general reference points" or "rules of thumb".. I wouldn't depend on them to indicate anything other than that which Nissan used them for. I will readily admit that in many cases it would "seem" that casting numbers changed, on certain castings, past certain points in time.. In this case however the best evidence of the date of production of this engine, is the Engine Serial Number. (of course re-stamping engine serial numbers is something that has been done on many Chevy's over the years;-)

Nissan used Engine Serial Numbers for two purposes. All Technical Service Bulletins reference the engine serial number because that pins down the specific engine at which any manufacturing changes were made, or when any manufacturing defects entered the process; and for warranty purposes it ties a specific engine to a specific VIN.

It would seem that if engine serial number 60039 has a P--31 block casting.. they must have found an old block laying around - or someone else has restamped the serial number.. Yet another Z Car oddity... and we may have to just accept that this might be one of them..

FWIW,
Carl


Carl Beck
Clearwater,FL USA
http://ZHome.com

[2-4-T-Z-MAN]

Carl,

Thanks for some very detailed information. I wondered when you would see this topic and jump in.

I have to say that by no means am I an authority on the Z.
Every day is a learning experience.

Your answer that this car , based on the 60039 #, indicates that it was built 10/71 making it a 71 confuses me. I'm not disputing your information, it just seems that there is more information out there than can be assimilated and come up with a simple method of determining a vehicles model year, other than the title.

It was my understanding that the E-31 block made it a 1970's car and if it had a P-30 the car would be a 71-73 depending on build date.
Now the 60036# issue places a car with a E-31 block as a 1971. Which lonetreesteve's title states. Whats up?
If he checks the plate on the shock tower and finds that the numbers match, would that eliminate the prospect that someone put an earlier engine in his car?

I have since gone to an article you wrote for the Internet Z car Club back in may 2001.
In that article you made mention of two cars, one having a later build date than the second. The car with the later build date was titled as a 70 model while the one with the earlier build date was titled as a 71.

So do we just go by the title information as to what year vehicle we have? Is this entire topic just semantics? There just seems to be so much conflicting information.

[Carl Beck]

2-4-T-Z Man replied:
>Carl,
>Thanks for some very detailed information. I wondered when you
>would see this topic and jump in.
>
>I have to say that by no means am I an authority on the Z.
>Every day is a learning experience.

Hi Z Man (everyone):
Every day is a learning experience for all of us.

>Your answer that this car , based on the 60039 #, indicates that it was built 10/71 making
>it a 71 confuses me.

Your sentence confuses me. ;-)

I said: "So L24-060039 is the 60,039th engine produced. It would have been installed in a 240-Z built in Oct. 1971 (10/71)."

I went on to say that the 1972 Model Year Z's started production 09/71, during the month of 09/71 there were both 1971 and 1972 Model Year Z's produced ... At any rate being a 10/71 build date - that engine serial number would have been installed in a 1972 Model Year Z build 10/71.

>I'm not disputing your information, it just seems that there is more information out there
>than can be assimilated and come up with a simple method of determining a vehicles
>model year, other than the title.

No mention was made of using the title..(that's another story all together). We are only talking about either "Production Year" (meaning the Calendar Year) or "Model Year".

Here in the US "Model Years" of cars do not run concurrent with "Calendar Years". Normally "new Models" are introduced several months ahead of the end of the Calendar Year.

Actually it is quite simple to determine the Production Date.
a) There was only one L24 engine production line. The engines were numbered sequentially within the series used...
b) The production of L24's was limited to the production capacity of that single line - only so many engines could have been made each month.
c) All North American Z's have their Month and Year of Manufacture attached to them.
d) All 240-Z's have Data Tags that tell what the Original Engine Serial Number installed in that car is.

From this we know it's not possible to build a complete car "before" the original engine installed in it at the factory - has been produced.

By gathering a large statistical sample - patterns of engine serial numbers can be associated with specific build dates from the cars they were installed in. So you wind up with narrow ranges of Chassis Numbers lining up with narrow ranges of Engine Serial Numbers. Within these narrow ranges, engine numbers do not match in perfect sequence with the chassis numbers.. but they all do fall with narrow ranges of each other.

We know that the engine's did not get installed in perfect sequence with the Chassis Numbers of the cars - none the less - within a month or two - and within blocks of engine serial numbers - the progression of the engine serial numbers do match the progression of the chassis numbers.

When we compare the above observations with the information the Factory Service Bulletins and the Factory Parts Catalogs provide - we see that they support one another.

>It was my understanding that the E-31 block made it a 1970's car and if it had a P-30 the
>car would be a 71-73 depending on build date.

Here you have to specify - are you talking about "Production Year" or "Model Year" cars?

Cars built during Production Year 1970 were sold/titled as both 1970 and 1971 Model Year cars. Cars built during Production year 1971 were sold/title as both 1971 and 1972 Model Year Cars... etc etc. So to be clear in your meaning, you have to be specific in your terms.

If it is your understanding that all L24 blocks cast in Production Year 1970 had casting number E31 cast into them... then they might be found in both Series I and very early Series II cars - with Model Years 1970 and 1971. Because a block cast in the last week of 12/70 could easily have found it's way into a car built in the first few weeks of 01/71 or even 02/71.

Then my question is, upon what information is that understanding based?

I will agree that in general and broad terms - it is most common to see the E31 castings in series I cars..

>Now the 60036# issue places a car with a E-31 block as a 1971.

The 60039 # places a car with an E31 block in a car that would have been "Produced", along with several thousand others.. in 10/71. It most likely would have been a 1972 Model Year Z Car. I agree that in general those two pieces of data don't line up correctly.

So far we have engine serial numbers between 57741 and 64101 installed in Chassis Numbers HLS30 46675 and HLS30 49806 all with 10/71 Dates of Manufacture. (remember that not all L24's went into Z's... large blocks of them went to other production models).

#60039 puts that engine almost right in the middle of that group. Is it "possible" that #60039 got pushed to the side, left behind at the engine factory and somehow got out of order, somehow delayed and put in car built 11/71, 12/71 etc... Yes it's possible.

Would it be possible to install that engine number 60039 in a car made 10 months earlier.. say in 12/70?... when all the engine serial numbers from those dates were between 15xxx and 17827?.... knowing that the numbers were assigned sequentially in the series?... NO NOT Possible.

>Which lonetreesteve's title states.

Lonetreesteve has no title for the engine he's asking about.

I get the impression from Lonetreesteve's writing - that he has an extra engine -- not installed in a car at all. It was just a spare engine - which the seller was told it was from a 1970 Z.


>Whats up? If he checks the plate on the shock tower and finds that the numbers match,
>would that eliminate the prospect that someone put an earlier engine in his car?

He has no Shock Tower Data Plate for that engine.

If he checks the Shock Tower Data Plate for the 71 or 72 Z that he has - then he can verify that either one of them still has its original engine or not.

If he tells us - only the engine serial numbers, from the Data Plates of his Z's - I'll tell him what the Date Of Manufacture is on the Data Plates on the Drivers Door Jam's of his cars.

Or if he tell us only the Build Dates of his Z's - I'll tell him the range of engine serial numbers that were installed in his cars.

If he tells us both the Date of Manufacture and the Original Engine Serial Number of his Z's - taken off the Data Tags...I'll add that data to our data base.. ;-)

>I have since gone to an article you wrote for the Internet Z car Club back in may 2001.
>In that article you made mention of two cars, one having a later build date than the
>second. The car with the later build date was titled as a 70 model while the one with the
>earlier build date was titled as a 71.

That is correct. Within the Series I 240-Z's... there is a huge overlap in how they were sold and titled. There is no question related to when each car was built, nor what the original engine serial number was.

That is because it was up to the Selling Dealer to decide how to apply for a State Title for the car they sold. Nissan does NOT issue Titles, Nissan provides a Manufacturers Statement of Origin (MSO) to the Dealers. The Dealers then take the MOS to their local Dept. of Motor Vehicles and apply for a State Title to be issued. The individual States issue Titles. The reason the Series I cars could be sold as either 1970 Model Year or 1971 Model Year Z's - was because there were no changes in the US Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (MVSS) nor Emissions Standards for cars produced before 03/71. So if the Dealer declared a Series I Z to be a 1971 Model Year Car.. it was perfectly legal to both sell it and title it that way.

>So do we just go by the title information as to what year vehicle we have?

Your State Issued Title -- only shows what "Model Year" the car was sold as. As we know, both Series I and Series II 240-Z's were sold as 1971 Model Year Z's and are titled that way.

Because for 1972 and 1973 Model Years - there were different MVSS and Emissions Standards - they had to be sold and titled as the Model Years that meet the US regulations and so it was no longer up to the dealers to decide.

>Is this entire topic just semantics? There just seems to be so much conflicting information.

Specific terms are very important to watch - both in writing and reading about these cars... yes a lot of the confusion is caused by not using specific terms and semantics.

The specific case here - of having a block with an E31 casting number and an Engine Serial Number that would indicate a build date of 10/71 -is very unusual indeed.

Is it possible that an older E31 cast block get pushed off in a corner somewhere, only to be put back on the engine line 10 or more months later and then finished? I guess it's possible. Is it possible someone re-stamped/altered the engine serial number?... I guess that's possible too...Is it possible lonetreesteve needs to take a pencil and piece of paper with him to write these numbers down.. as he triple checks... it's a good idea ;-)

FWIW,
Carl B.

[2-4-T-Z-MAN]

Carl,

After reading one spacific line of your note I proceded to smack my forehead and go DUH !!!

I reread lonetreesteve's note and realized that I had, in my mind, placed his spare engine in his 71. DUH !!! Total misc. ramblings on my part about the shock tower ID plate, his car's title, etc.

Datsunzgarage.com has an article that talks about how to identify engine and head series.

Brian Little states that 1970 240's have L24s with the E31 block and that 71-73 Z's have L24 with the P30 block.

So this 60039 engine leans to the thought that the above statement is too broad?

[abas]

24tzman/Carl/lonetreesteve

It seems from previous posts maybe the only link to 1970 is the 2400ohc valve cover, from which the PO might have got his dating info from. As far as I know this 2400 valve cover will fit any head, any year, and so cannot help towards dating the age of the block ( Over here we would refer to it as a 'red herring' but I don't know whether that term is in use in the US).

[lonetreesteve]

Carl.

Thank you for your most informative reply! Unfortunately, I don't have the data plate. The engine was a "throw in" along with some other misc. 240z parts with a '71 240z that my son and i purchased a couple weeks ago (which has matching numbers by the way). As I mentioned earlier, the valve cover has the early '70 "Nissan 2400 OHC" valve coveron it and not just the Nissan OHC" that you see on later '70 and the '71-73 240s. I was told by a very-well respected 240z shop owner here in the Denver-area that valve cover could be worth in the neighborhood of $500.00 US by itself. Is that true? are these covers that rare and that much in demand?

MDBrandy,

Yes, I am getting the stamped 060039 number off the raiseed area next to the stamped L24 on the upper portion of the block below the head, just below the head. The E31 on the lower portion of the block is raised lettering.

As Carl mentioned, just another strange, quirky mystery with the 240Zs that we all love!

Steve

[Carl Beck]

2-4-T-Z-MAN replied:
>Datsunzgarage.com has an article that talks about how to identify engine
> and head series.

Hi Z Man..
Datsunzgargae.com - doesn't come up on my Browser...

I have the URL for Brian's site as: http://geocities.com/zgarage2001/
Is there now a different one?

>Brian Little states that 1970 240's have L24s with the E31 block and that
>71-73 Z's have L24 with the P30 block.

Yes, as I said - that has been generally true in my experience also if we are talking about the "Production Year" of the part, and not the Model Year of the Car. That is why having an E31 block show up in a car that would have been produced 10/71 is interesting... if not odd.

The truth is, I don't know of any broad effort to link casting numbers to engine serial numbers or published start/stop dates from Nissan. In Brian's as well as my case, it's just a general observation based on limited personal experience.

In the case of Engine Serial Numbers matched to VIN's and Production dates - I've been actively gathering that data, on hundreds of cars for the past 15 years. So I believe we have a pretty good statistical sample with high confidence levels.

>So this 60039 engine leans to the thought that the above statement
>is too broad?

It would lean toward the statement not being true in absolute terms.

Brian has put a lot of work into his web site and "in general" it answers a lot of common questions that people have about their Z's. However I must admit that I find many statements to be misguided if not factual errors - through-out the site - most are small and some would say insignificant in the overall scheme of things... but they Pop out at me..

I keep meaning to write Brian about several of them -but then, I have a hard enough time keeping up with the Z Car Home Page.... We all have to be careful to verify sources of information on the Net... much of it is simply stated in a confusing or misleading way, some of it is just simply opinion presented as fact.. and some of it is simply incorrect to begin with..

everything taken with a grain of salt..
FWIW,
Carl

[deadflo]

For what its worth.
My car is one of the last series ones, HLS30-20390, Its door jamb plate shows a build date of 1-71.
So it really was built in 71 although it is a series one.
It has a matching number engine L24 O27310.
The matching engine is a P-30 block.
I wonder if its one of the first S30's with a P-30 block?

Also regarding Brian Littles webpage his timeline shows the E-88 head starting in 71, and the copy says the e-31 head was on "early 70" cars. My car has an e-88 head but again its a series one car.
I cant verify the head is original but there was some paperwork with the car about a head rebuild in the late 70's and not a lot of miles on the car since then. Again i cant confirm it is the original head though....but I see confilcting info around about when the e-88 actually was first used. Whats the scoop?

[abas]

Originally posted by lonetreesteve
I was told by a very-well respected 240z shop owner here in the Denver-area that valve cover could be worth in the neighborhood of $500.00 US by itself. Is that true? are these covers that rare and that much in demand?


Steve

Steve

2400ohc valve covers are fairly sought after and come up on ebay fairly regularly. They usually go for $50-$125 right now but those prices have been increasing over the past year in line with most other series 1 parts. I don't know of anyone who has paid $500 for such a valve cover.

hope it helps



Andrew

[Carl Beck]

Deadflo wrote:
>For what its worth.
>My car is one of the last series ones, HLS30-20390, Its door jamb
>plate shows a build date of 1-71.

Hi Steve:
Yes - the last one verified so far is HLS30 020438 ( I think).. with engine
number L24-26808.

>So it really was built in 71 although it is a series one.

Yes - the Series I's were built along with the Beginning of the Series II Z's in Jan. of 71.

>It has a matching number engine L24 O27310.
>The matching engine is a P-30 block.
>I wonder if its one of the first S30's with a P-30 block?

Could very well be - could be that in order to keep up with the demand for Z's Nissan had to increase engine production, and thus simply added another "block casting station" and used P-30 to differentiate it from the E-31 block casting station. (Casting Numbers were mostly used for Quality Control tracking)

Nissan increased production of the 240-Z from about 18,000 the first year to about 32,000 the second year! So they had to increase the production volume of the engine line as well.

>Also regarding Brian Littles webpage his timeline shows the E-88 head
>starting in 71, and the copy says the e-31 head was on "early 70" cars.

This is an example of the small "errors" on the site.

The E31 Head was used on the Series 1 and Series II 240-Z's (1970 & 1971 Model Years, produced between Oct. 69 and Sept. 71).

Brian's site say's that 10,000 cars were made with the E31... Wrong.. More like 46,000 Z Cars were produced and sold with the E31 head (plus about 10,000 other Nissan's with the L24 engine).

The E88 head was introduced on the 1972 Model Year, Series III Z Cars. Although there is some evidence that some heads cast as E88's actually have the combustion chambers cut to E31 Spec.'s with 42.4cc combustion chamber size, instead of the E88 Spec. 44.7cc.

The E88's Production Date starting 09/71. Series II cars were still being produced in 9/71 so during this over-lap period, some 1971 Model Year Series II cars actually got the E88 casting on their heads, but the combustion chambers were still cut to the E31 spec.'s. Likewise some of these heads found their way on the first Series III cars. (as far as we can tell). It's a rare occurrence.. but it has been found.

>My car has an e-88 head but again its a series one car.
>I cant verify the head is original but there was some paperwork
>with the car about a head rebuild in the late 70's and not a lot of
>miles on the car since then. Again i cant confirm it is the original
>head though....but I see confilcting info around about when the
>e-88 actually was first used. Whats the scoop?

On a Series I car you can be sure the head's been swapped So far Brian's site is the only one I've found that claims only 10,000 E31 and only on the "early Z's". Where else are you finding "conflicts"?

Brian says that there were two types of E88's - small valve and large valve.

In fact there were three heads with casting number E88. The 72 Model Year, the 73 Model Year and the 74 Model Year. The 72 & 73 had the same valves, the 72 had 44.7cc volume combustion chambers, the 73 has 47.8cc's. The E88 on the 74 260Z has 47.8cc but with a larger 35 vs 33 exhaust valve.

Brian says - that the 74 260 E88 has the same size combustion chambers as the N42/N47.. wrong. The N42/N47's have smaller size combustion chambers..at 44.6cc.

If you want accurate head information - I'd suggest you get it from the Z Car Home Page.
http://ZHome.com Just look in the Technical Library Section.

FWIW,
Carl


Carl Beck
Clearwater,FL USA
http://ZHome.com

[lonetreesteve]

Carl,

Thank you for the very interesting info and thank you for the link to Zhome.com! I will register our '71 amd '72 240Zs in the next couple days. I noticed that you have #20, that's terrific!!! I saw that #390 (needs restoration) is currently on eBay, item #2479358623.

I also noticed that you have a '72, white with red interior, that's what our '72 is also (#64733, with the engine matching the data plate #081097). My son and I have had a real tough time finding the red interior parts during our restoration process.

With regard to my original post on the extra engine we have with the E31 engine block, E31 head, E88 intake manifold, Hitachi SU carbs, '70 air cleaner, Series 1 valve cover, and the higher #060039 engine number I am still at a loss, everything points to a '70 engine with the single exception of the high engine number. You hve come up with some very good ideas on why this is, but your'e right, it is a strange specimen.

Thanks again and look into #390 on eBay, the seller says that if is not sold, it will be parted out and "sent to the shredder". That would be a shame for one of the rare "500" 240Zs to end up like that.. Maybe one of the classic zcar members may look into saving this historical car!!

[Carl Beck]

Hello Steve:
You know - there is another "possibility" here. The guy that stamped the engine number on that block - could have simply had the die set up wrong... or could simply have put an extra "0" to the right side of the "6"

As for poor #390... I'm afraid it's too far past any economically reasonable consideration for restoration. The rust damage is simply too extensive, better to save another 69 production dated car that has a more rust free body to begin with.

So far - of the first 500 240-Z's produced - we have found 125 of them "still in existence". Of those 125 maybe 40 are in pretty good condition and 85 simply "still exist" needing complete restorations... If he parts out 390 and sends it to the crusher... the number will go down to 124..

FYI - "SEM" (is a Brand Name)... and they produce "Vinyl Paints/Coatings" and "Trim Paints" ("trim" is for applications to metals).. their "NAPA RED" is a dead match for the red interior of the 240-Z's. I've used their products for the last 30 years.. you can dye the seats, it won't rub off (if you follow their directions). Most Automotive Paint and Auto Body Shop Supply Companies carry it.


regards,
Carl

[deadflo]

Anyone tried to match the blue Z interior colors with this stuff,?
I am thinking about door panels....

[ChrisA]

I've read this thread with great interest. I dont have a 69 or 70 but I thought it interesting how much higher my engine # is compared to the VIN #. I suspect its due to the L24 going into other vehicles or maybe they were not all that accurate with the block numbering.

FWIW

Chris

[kats]

Hi,

I am also very much interested in this thread.
My L24-005562 has a casting code "E31" then "02121" on the block.

mdbrandy,your casting code "9901F" make me think about"the date of casting" What do you think if it shows "1969 Sep 01 F"
Does it make sence? If my"02121" will be read "0212I"?If so,will it show 1970 Feb 12 I"?

I would like to see more casting codes close to my build date early 1970.

Thank you,

kats

[abas]

Kats

You could be onto something there.

My April 1970 has L24 05778 and has O320A. (1970 march 20th?)

Perhaps the code on Lonetreesteve's might give a clear indication on the age of his engine.

regards



Andrew

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by kats
Hi,

I am also very much interested in this thread.
My L24-005562 has a casting code "E31" then "02121" on the block.

mdbrandy,your casting code "9901F" make me think about"the date of casting" What do you think if it shows "1969 Sep 01 F"
Does it make sence? If my"02121" will be read "0212I"?If so,will it show 1970 Feb 12 I"?

Very interesting thought! I certainly can't verify it, but maybe someone can....or we can collect a bunch of data!

[lonetreesteve]

Hi Guys,

Well, I took your advise (and a wire brush!) and found the raised number to the right of the E31 on the driver's side near the bottom of the block and it was "9X04D". I will leave this up for you guys to figure out..... I don't want to speculate, its just tooo strange!

[kats]

Hi all,

abas Your engine is very near my engine,I was excited about my thought when I saw your reply.
Because japanese people say year and date like this,
"1970- Feb.- 12- sunday"Always year comes first.

But lonetreesteve,your casting code is breaking my thought.
I do have seen a code like yours,it also has X second from the left.But I believe its block is P30.

Thank you

kats

[lonetreesteve]

The block is a E31, not a P30. I wonder if the first number "9" is for 1969, the "X" was for 24th letter in the alphabet or 24th day of the month and the "D" is for December for 12/24/69.
Perhaps the high L24 #060039 was like Carl thought: mis-stamped, should have been stamped 006039.
Or the engine was re-stamped at some point in time. I wonder if an early 1972 240Z's original engine blew when it was still under warranty and Datsun replaced it with an "off the shelf" engine. Maybe Datsun had a stash of these '70 engines and didn't assign them numbers until they were ready to ship them to the dealer for a repalcement? Or when the Datsun dealer replaced the engine they stamped the original engine number of the '72.
I'm not sure!! But is certainly is a lot of fun trying to figure this one out!!

[lonetreesteve]

Or perhaps the "X" is like a "space" and the 04 is for the 4th day and the D is for December: 12/04/1969??

Steve

[Alan Pugh]

These casting numbers allways intrigue me so i'll add this even though mine is a P30 block out of a 1977 260, (Aus delivered) the casting numbers are 7121B.
Using the dating method this would be 1977 Jan 21st.
Surely this would show that you guys aren't too far off with your thinking, and I wonder if this method would help solve some of the other stampings on other parts. Brake and clutch pedals come to mind.

FWIW
Alan P.

[lonetreesteve]

Has anyone or does any know someone who has these block casting numbers figured out?

[ilags]

I was reading some of the coments that you have all said..and I thought why not. So this morning i took a look at my block. Now this seems very odd to me becuase the man i bought my 240 from says that this is the origonal engine. Yet there is an E-31 on it and it is a 1972? could have been a replacment, I just don't understand why someone would put an older engine in this car.

[lonetreesteve]

Zacch,

Very interesting! What is the engine number on your L24 and does it match the engine number that is stamped on the dataplate, along with the serial number of the car? Do you have an E31 head as well?

[ilags]

The numbers don't match up. Yes i do have an E-31 head.

[lonetreesteve]

Zacch,

What is the number that is stamped into the block? Also, what is the number on the dataplate?

[lonetreesteve]

Well, it's been over a year since I started this thread (my first one on Classic Zcar Club!) and I still have this mysterious orphan E-31 engine block with a E-31 head, the old "Nissan 2400 OHC" valve cover, the older SU carbs and all kinds of black braided hoses, which would all point to a 1970 engine, but it has the higher 060039 serial number. As Carl Beck had indicated on this thread, that would reflect an approximate manufacture date of 10/71 or an early 1972 model. But 1972's didn't have E-31 blocks (Series I only), E-31 heads (Series I & II) or the old valve cover (early Series I only). I think that Carl's hunch that the block was misstamped in the factory is probably the most likely scenario. But, no one was really able to come up with a definitve way to translate the engine casting codes. This engine's casting code is "9X04D"....(9=1969, X=?, 04=day, D=December)???

[AZ-240z]

Hello all,
I guess I'll put my two cents worth in, and echo deadflo's data. I am the original owner of hls30-20419 with a build date of 1/71. The engine # is L24 - 027116, the block is cast P30 with the code adjacent to the P30 of 1616L. I hope someone eventually breaks this code; I am intrigued with what Kats, Carl, and all have to say in deciphering it.
Great thread.

Dan
IZCC# 12324

[deadflo]

Well we can deduce from info from AZ-240z that the engines are not put into the cars in consecutive order. To recap, my car is serial number 20390, with engine number 027310.
Dans car is serial number 20419 with engine number 027116.

OR perhaps the cars don't go through the assembly line in the order of their own serial number.

[mlc240z]

ya got me interested!
my 5/71 titled 1971 240 HLS30-31306 has:
Engine block P30 1408a (drivers side)
Engine casting 039190 (matches data plate L24 on strut tower)
Head E31, intake E46, 3 screw SU's.

i think the 1408a would definitely indicate 1971, April 8th
the 'a' is anyone's guess.

just add it to the database.

[zztom]

Hi guys, my 71 Z is HLS30-19867. Engine # is 026313 (matches strut tower plate). Engine block is P30 1109A. Head E31.....Intake E46.

[lonetreesteve]

Interesting.......my '71 also has a P30 block, engine #032875, car vin #25734 manufacture date of 3/71, which matches the strut tower plate. I will have to take a look at my 72's block later since it's in storage right now, but it does have a matching engine number........You all know the story with the extra E31 block engine that I have...

[daddz]

Dan,
A friend of mine has a car that is so very close to yours. 240ztt's 240Z has the serial number HLS30-20425 (six units apart from yours!) and it is also a '71 240Z in its original color #901.

As for my 08/70 the engine block number is L24-011821 with a valve cover that reads: Nissan 2400 OHC and the chassis number is HLS30-08323. I can't recall the thread but, the seat belts are 07/70 for both passenger side and driver's side and both lap belt and shoulder belt. One of these days I will have to crawl under the dash and get the pedal set numbers as well. BTW, mine is a paint code #901 yet the emissions decal states that it meets 1971 specs.

[Carl Beck]

Dan,
A friend of mine has a car that is so very close to yours. 240ztt's 240Z has the serial number HLS30-20425 (six units apart from yours!) and it is also a '71 240Z in its original color #901.

As for my 08/70 the engine block number is L24-011821 with a valve cover that reads: Nissan 2400 OHC and the chassis number is HLS30-08323. I can't recall the thread but, the seat belts are 07/70 for both passenger side and driver's side and both lap belt and shoulder belt. One of these days I will have to crawl under the dash and get the pedal set numbers as well. BTW, mine is a paint code #901 yet the emissions decal states that it meets 1971 specs.

Hi Daddz:
Dan Veldkamp, IZCC #5004.. has HLS30 08325.. with engine #L24-011813



FWIW,
Carl B.

[daddz]

Carl,
That is extremely interesting that we are only two VIN#'s apart yet his engine block is eight units ahead of mine! Would you happen to know which color code his car was when it left the factory? In addition are there any pictures of his 240Z?

[NapaBill]

This thread got me curious enough to have a look at my numbers. All the numbers are real easy to see with the freshly painted block on an engine stand!

My car is HLS30-07715 with a build date of 7/70. The (matching) engine # is L24 010878. The casting number is E31 0660K. While that may indicate a June production for the block, the numbers don't appear to mesh with the schemes being proposed.

Oh, and the car was originally titled as a '71, and does have the "NISSAN 2400 OHC" cam cover.

[lonetreesteve]

Bill,

Your block casting date of June of '70 would make sense, since the build date is 7/70. Let's try to decode your block #0660K: I would assume that the "0" stands for 1970, the first "6" (or second "6" stands for June), the K for 11th day? I know a lot of the american engine blocks use letters for weeks of the month and sometimes days, not sure what Datsun did. Do you know or does anyone else know how to decode these casting numbers?

[kats]

Hi,

Today I show some car's (Z432) casting code on the engine block.They are
not L-series engine, but they will give us some good points.

They seem to me they are telling exact day of when they were made/or born.

The way of casting method looks same like L-series engine in 1969, but I think after 1970, S20 engine is little bit more specifically telling date.

My Jan 1970 Z432 has
S20-000884, the code is 9 3 14 56.(1969 Mar 14th, what does 56 mean?)
Mr.Watanabe's Dec 1969 Z432 has
S20-000850, the code is 9 3 18 ?? (1969 Mar 18th,last 2numbers hidden by oil and dust)
I am surprised S20 engines were made(I should say "Casting", may not be "stamped serial") well before Z432 went on the assembly line.

I checked some S20s for sale at the Mr.Moroe's shop
S20-001290, the code is 9 6 24 37 (1969 Jun 24th, what does 37 mean?)
S20-001839, the code is 70 5 27 21 (1970 May 27th, what does 21 mean?)
S20-00????, the code is 71 4 2 2 (I for got take a picture of serial number)
S20-002615, the code is 72 3 6 23 (1972 Mar 6th, what does 23 mean?)

These are just my guessing.I think casting code is telling the day, then serial number was stamped.
So, sometimes they are not in sequence among them.

I think it is possible I will find a 1969 Jun 18th(my birthday) S20 engine,if I am lucky. Must be somewhere.

What do you think of it?

kats

[Carl Beck]

HI Kats:
Interesting information you have presented.

Wasn't the Skyline GT-R introduced in Feb of 1969 with the S20 engine. If so then Prince must have been casting production blocks several months before that.. They must have started production of the engines in 1968 sometime. I recall Mr. Matsuo writing that he was told to use the new Prince S20 for the JDM S30, in Aug. of 67.

Why bother to put casting codes on any casting? Usually it is done for Quality Control purposes. If later a problem is found with a casting - you have a record that could lead you to the person that did the job, or the batch of castings that were cast at the same time, or with the same lot of cast iron. That way you can try to find out if the problem was caused by the person involved, or by the materials used or by some process step that was or wasn't followed correctly.

Normally castings of any kind in a production environment - are not cast one at a time. Usually they are cast in larger batches. It takes a huge amount of energy to melt cast iron to a liquid form so it can be poured into waiting molds. If the casting marks track the castings down to the specific day - then the last two numbers might be the sequence number for the casting made that day, or they might be to identify the specific mold used.

If the last two numbers identify the specific mold used - you would know who made that mold. If that person made mistakes in his molds - the entire batch cast that day might not have been bad.. if the problem shows up in several different molds made by different people - then the problem might be in the mix of the cast iron used that day..

So maybe:
9-6-24- 01
9-6-24- 02
9-6-24- 03
9-6-24- 04
9-6-24- 05
9-6-24- 06
9-6-24- 0x.....
9-6-24- 50

The block Serial Numbers are stamped into the block later - so they could easily be out of sequence with the specific casting numbers.

Just a guess for fun....

Carl B.

[kats]

Thank you and That is right, Carl

The GTR made a debut Feb 1969.What I was surprised is why Dec 1969 Z432did not receive Nov or Oct S20? For me it is very interesting Mar S20 is way before for Dec Z432. My explanation skill is poor, sorry always.

I hope more owners put information here, it is fun to see compare chassis and engine number with casting code .Especially owners in the U.S. you all have build date tag,that will be more fun.

I think L24 was first applied to 240Z,but relatively they are big number (like L24-002xxx) as a begining of production.

Is it possible they are same block L20 and L24? After having a block,were they boring for 2400cc or 2000cc then stamp "L24-00xxxx" or "L20-xxxxxx" ?Can we see something from reading casting code of them?


kats

[Carl Beck]

Thank you and That is right, Carl

The GTR made a debut Feb 1969.What I was surprised is why Dec 1969 Z432did not receive Nov or Oct S20? For me it is very interesting Mar S20 is way before for Dec Z432. My explanation skill is poor, sorry always.

Hi Kats:
Your explanation is very clear.

I believe it was quite easy for block castings and finished engine blocks to be mixed up - as they were moved around the factory, sent from the production lines, to the shipping docks and then shipped out to the assembly plants for installation in the various vehicles. No one was paying attention to the casting dates or finished block serial numbers at that point.

For a time - I worked on the production lines and then in the shipping department of a manufacturing plant - believe me - the fork lifts running around - picking up pallets of finished goods - would move them all over the place and in a very random order - before they got loaded on trucks, or in train box cars for shipping. Very easy to get them all mixed up..

I hope more owners put information here, it is fun to see compare chassis and engine number with casting code .Especially owners in the U.S. you all have build date tag,that will be more fun.

I have collect for decades - VIN's with original engine serial numbers for the Datsun 240Z's.. but haven't recorded all block casting codes. For the most part the L24's only have two different codes as I recall.

I think L24 was first applied to 240Z,but relatively they are big number (like L24-002xxx) as a begining of production.

Is it possible they are same block L20 and L24? After having a block,were they boring for 2400cc or 2000cc then stamp "L24-00xxxx" or "L20-xxxxxx" ?Can we see something from reading casting code of them?

I believe the L24 was used in a larger sedan and a commercial truck as well as the Z. The Datsun 2400 {GL130}/Nissan Super Six and Personal Deluxe Six are listed in the FSM. Maybe they got the first few batches of the L24's.

The 1970 L20/L24 Factory Service Manual shows a picture of L24-107. So I would guess that they started the serial numbers at L24-00001.

The L24 and L20A are two different castings of the same basic block. You can not bore a 2.0L with a bore of 78mm - out to 2.4L with a bore of 83mm - and have any cylinder wall thickness left. So the L20A had to be cast with smaller cylinder bores than used in the L24's - to begin with.

So far the earliest L24 block number reported for a 69 production Datsun 240Z is L24-2079 found in
HLS30 0042, but we have only found about 166 of the first 543. So it is quite possible that much lower serial number blocks were used in the Z's.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[kats]

Hi Carl,

Thank you for telling us your experience, I can imagine how manufactures were doing in the factory.

Yes , the L24- 107 , let's find out what the casting code is.

Seems to me 9 2 1 2 4.

And now I remember L20 block has E30 on the block for an early S30.
Early L24 has E31, yes they are different from begining of casting.

I believe a nice siliver 1969 Fairlady-ZL(L20 engine) still owned in the U.S.,
I want to see its casting code on the L20 block.

kats

[spitz17]

Wow! Very nice, indepth explanation as usual Keep it up guys...

[Mike B]

Hi Kats,

Here are some casting codes from some of my early cars and parts cars:

HLS30-00032 10/1969 production: L24-2130 9828G August 28, 1969?
HLS30-00210 11/1969 production: L24-2396 9901D September 01, 1969?
HLS30-00331 11/1969 production: L24-2585 9X04C ????
HLS30-01590 01/1970 production: L24-3652 9X04F ????

Some of these were kind of hard to read, but I think the information above is correct. I'll see if I can post some pictures this weekend. Not sure what the 9X means. I have HLS30-00237 in storage away from my house and I may not get there again for a couple of weeks, but I'll post the casting code when I get a chance.

-Mike

[astrohog]

that last number or letter code could be the time frame that the block was cast on the given date. Alot of our food products are stamped at packaging with a date code that can include a letter code (usually corrsponding to the HOUR, or shift? it was packaged), allowing one to really narrow down the window where that particular item was manufactured.

just a thought...

Regards,

Jeff

[kats]

Thank you everyone,

Mike,could "X" indicate Oct ? 9X04C and 9X04F they are making me think of that.
More earlier L24 has 99##@ and next groupe would have 9X##@.

I tend to think they used X for Octber, Y for Novenber, Z for Decmber.

I am waiting some reports about the casting code which has Y and Z.

The casting craftman did not want to add an extra digit in 1969?
How about this,let's say an block was made on 1969 Nov 11th,and it has "I" at the end,
The casting code could be "91111I"
Is not this easy to be mistaken Jan 11th or just dificult to read out is it?
I think there will be "9Y11I" ...

kats

[Carl Beck]

To Recap what we have so far in this thread..and update as we proceed...

L24 107		 E31	92124	FSM

L24-2130 	 E31	9828G 	10/69	HLS30-00032 	Mike B

L24-2396 	 E31	9901D	11/69	HLS30-00210	Mike B

L24-2465    	 E31   	9901F  		HLS30 00215	mdbrandy

L24-2585 	 E31	9X04C	11/69	HLS30-00331	Mike B

L24-3260		 E31	9901A	12/69	HLS30-00587	Carl B

L24-3652 	 E31	9X04F	01/70	HLS30-01590	Mike B

L24-4375		 E31	9Y01A	02/70	HLS30-01704	JonnyRock

L24-004621	 E31	0126C	01/70	????		BonziLon

L24-005562	 E31	02121	03/70	HLS30-02156	Kats

L24-005757	 E31	0327B	04/70	HLS30-02725	ol'red70

L24-05778 	 E31 	0320A   	04/70 			abas

L24 010878 	 E31 	0660K  	07/70	HLS30-07715  	Napa Bill

L24-011821			08/70	HLS30-08323	daddz



L24-026313 	 P30 	1109A  	01/71	HLS30-19867	zztom

L24-027116  	 P30 	1616L 	01/71	HLS30-20419 	AZ-240z

L24 O27310 	 P30  	 	01/71	HLS30-20390	deadflo 

L24-032875 	 P30  		03/71	HLS30 25734 	lonetreesteve

L24-039190	 P30 	1408a 	05/71  	HLS30-31306  	mlc240Z

L24-123315			08/72	HLS30-98122	ChrisA

FWIW
Carl B.

[Bonzi Lon]

Sitting in the garage is: L24-004621 E31 0126C was told it was in a 1/70 car.

Bonzi Lon

[ol'red70]

Hi Carl

Some more data for the above "recap".

L24-5757 E31 #0327B 4/70 HLS30-02725

From your thread it appears that the only casting number that is close or similar is .... " L24-05778 E31 0320A 04/70 bas".

Where is "abas" located?

[Carl Beck]

Bonzi Lon, ol'red70 - thanks guys, I put the info in the list a Post #60..

Carl B.

[lonetreesteve]

Looks like Kats opened up an old thread that hasn't seen any activity in over 5 years. However, it's certainly great to see all the new informative activity!

Over 2 years ago, Darrel referred me to a local guy that was restoring his '70 240Z and was looking for an L24. I ended up selling him the engine that was the original subject of this thread.

As noted multiple times in this thread, it was definitely an oddball engine
(L24-60039 E31 9X04D) that had all the characteristics of an early L24 engine except for the high serial number. After looking at the engines that Carl listed in Post #60 and doing a comparison to the other engines, it couldn't be more clear that my old engine was an early engine that was stamped or mis-stamped with a later serial number.

[kats]

Hello Steve,

I am now very positive that your engine block is truly 1969 made
with assembled in some 1971 ,L24-060039 is a real serial for that engine.

There is a long long time gap between 1969(Nov) casting and
1971 assembling.But I think it could be,like Carl told us about
in a environment at the factory.(Thank you Carl recap)

The casting is first, then assembling.It could be happened to Steve's engine.

1969 casting block has 1971 serial number .It could be.
But vice versa never ever happen.I think.

kats

[HS30-H]

The castig is first, then assembling.

Yes Kats, casting is first, but second comes machining. Some engine blocks could end up being machined and quality-control passed a fair time after they were originally cast, and they would not be stamped with their unique serial number until after this had all been finished.

Such a scenario is also the explanation for the seemingly 'early' casting dates on the S20 engine blocks seen in the first 432s and 432Rs. Nissan started casting S20 engine blocks for the PGC10 Skyline GT-R, knew that they needed some for the planned 432s and 432Rs, and simply cast them at the same time. They would not receive their stamped serial numbers until they had been machined and/or assembled.

432 / 432R-specific S20 engines were of course different to GT-R-specific S20 engines in that they were machined differently. This because of their differing sump / oil pump pickup / dipstick layouts. Once they had been machined, they were either GT-R or 432 / 432R specific, and could not be confused.



Alan T.

[kats]

Thank you Alan,

I did not think about machining, it comes before assembling, that is right.

A specific number is needed to identify each one during assembling such as engine, body.
So, serial number must be stamped before the assembling.
For the engine,after machining , the block got the serial number, it makes sense.

Can we extend this way of thinking to body serial number? When a car (body) got a serial number?After welding?or painting? or ... People who are interested in this(including me) should go to proper thread.

Thanks Alan, the scenario of S20 for Z432/432R , I agree with it very much.

kats

[kats]

Steve,

You sold L24-060039 / 9X04D, I hope the man who got the engine from you will be informed about this thread in some day.

Originally, we were confused why 060039 got E31 on the block, and I am
sorry I was very suspectable about your engine.I said it should be P30 here 6 years ago.

How about this, at Yokohama engine factory in mid or late 1971, a NOS machined block but did not have a serial number was found in their warehouse,they simply put on the assembly line... Just my thought.

Just for an example, PS30-00347(12/1970) got S20-000074.Normally this low serial S20 to be installed Feb or Mar 1969 Skyline GTR.

kats

[Bonzi Lon]

Having worked in a small family owned ductile / cast iron foundry in my youth, all answers are spot on.

The raised numbers are part of the pattern used to make the sand mold, that iron is poured into. The numbers can be changed at any time on the pattern, each time a mold is made, daily, monthly, line, employee, batch etc. The second photo of Katz shows the square pads with number on which were changes on this partictular pattern. There were several parts we made that had number changes from each run ordered.

The stamped number can be added at any time from casting to customer. We had one part we had to date stamp on a 'non machined' surface while still hot.

Our engine number stamp could of happened about anytime, after machining, after assembly, after first fire-up, maybe someone knows.

Bonzi Lon

[Bonzi Lon]

Katz: This is a good article about body serial numbers.

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=35813

Bonzi Lon

[Carl Beck]

As noted multiple times in this thread, it was definitely an oddball engine
(L24-60039 E31 9X04D) that had all the characteristics of an early L24 engine except for the high serial number. After looking at the engines that Carl listed in Post #60 and doing a comparison to the other engines, it couldn't be more clear that my old engine was an early engine that was stamped or mis-stamped with a later serial number.

Would it be possible to get a picture of that engine serial number? The font on the dies used to stamp it might give us a clue.

New replacement blocks from Nissan - came into the Parts Department at the local Dealerships with no serial number - -- Quite possible the Dealership stamped the original engine serial number that was in the car, on the replacement... If that happened, the font on the dies used will most likely not perfectly match the factory dies.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[lonetreesteve]

Hi Carl,

Please see the pictures below. As I mentioned, my son and I sold the engine over 2 years ago; but fortunately, we took a couple pictures of the engine's serial number and the block numbers back in 2004.

[Carl Beck]

Since the "6" and "0" aren't the same font... I'd say the block was not stamped at the Factory

L24-3260 9901A 12/69 HLS30 00587

FWIW,
Carl B.

[lonetreesteve]

Carl,

Thank you, I believe you have solved the mystery. As you stated in post #71 and what I had speculated in post #32, it was a replacement engine that was most likely stamped by the dealer.

[Bonzi Lon]

I just noticed that the first 7 engine numbers in Carl's list do not have a '00' in front of the numbers like 004621. Photos in post 7 & 73 show this. I went to the garage 3 times to verify the double 0's before posting. The 2 exceptions would be ol'red70 and abas. Was this done to prevent forgery? Another mystery?

Bonzi Lon

[kats]

Hi Bonzi Lon,

Thank you for the link of the thread,that is wonderful.I now want to ask Nissan Shatai
which the answer is "engraving or stamping" for the body serial number.How about for the engine serial number?

Thank you Car, you pointed out the Font, yes they are different.
Not in the Yokohama factory, it would have happened in the dealer,I see.
In that case,vice versa could happen, i.e. a 1969 car could have a later block with P30 or what ever with engine serial number L24-002### with different Font.

And in that case, how about fitting with a head, are they (E31 head with P30 block or E88 head with E31 block) docking each other without any problem?

I have heard my friend saw a Z432 it has an engine without engine serial number.The owner told my friend not for sure but maybe the engine was replaced some time ago.

kats

[ol'red70]

In re-reading Bonzi Lon's response (#75) I went out and rechecked the engine serial #. It appears that I omitted one of the 0's in my earlier post. My correct engine # is 005757.
Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers

Greg

[Mike B]

Mike,could "X" indicate Oct ? 9X04C and 9X04F they are making me think of that.
More earlier L24 has 99##@ and next groupe would have 9X##@.

I tend to think they used X for Octber, Y for Novenber, Z for Decmber.

I am waiting some reports about the casting code which has Y and Z.

Kats,

Yes, the X would make sense for Oct, since it also means 10 in Roman numerals and Oct is the 10th month. I would also like to see what they used for November and December castings. Maybe they just didn't cast any engines in those months to avoid problems with their code, or they just coded them as October .

Lonestreesteve,

I am curious if your early engine with the later stamping had the early reinforced oil pan or not. Do you remember seeing a patch welded on the right side of the oil pan?

-Mike

[lonetreesteve]

.......... Lonestreesteve,
I am curious if your early engine with the later stamping had the early reinforced oil pan or not. Do you remember seeing a patch welded on the right side of the oil pan? -Mike

Mike,

I don't recall seeing one, but it could have been there and I just didn't see it.
If I can find the contact info for the guy I sold the engine to, I'll ask him and post what he tells me in this thread.

Steve

[Carl Beck]

Thank you Car, you pointed out the Font, yes they are different.
Not in the Yokohama factory, it would have happened in the dealer,I see.
In that case,vice versa could happen, i.e. a 1969 car could have a later block with P30 or what ever with engine serial number L24-002### with different Font.

Yes. If the engine was replaced with a Factory New short block - the Dealer would have stamped a serial number on that block - usually with a different set of dies, that had a different font style.

And in that case, how about fitting with a head, are they (E31 head with P30 block or E88 head with E31 block) docking each other without any problem?

The Factory supplied Complete New L24 engines and they also supplied New L24 "short blocks". That would be an engine without a new head and without new exterior items like oil pump, water pump, front timing cover, etc.

If a short block was needed/used the additional parts from the original engine were put on the new short block. Yes all exterior parts from either the E31 or P30 were interchangable.

I have heard my friend saw a Z432 it has an engine without engine serial number.The owner told my friend not for sure but maybe the engine was replaced some time ago.

I would guess that would be quite possible.

Here is a picture of the serial numbers stamped by the factory in a late 71 production 240Z. You can see that the factory font is the same as the earlier factory font. {the shape of the "0" and "6"}

FWIW,
Carl B.

[JonnyRock]

This got me excited, so I just checked my numbers matching 1970 (production was 2/70.)

Chassis Serial: HLS30-01704
Block Serial: L24-4375
Block Casting: 9Y01A

So that would be - November 1st, 1969 apparently.

[Carl Beck]

thanks Jon - I've updated the Post at #60..

Carl B.

[Mike B]

This got me excited, so I just checked my numbers matching 1970 (production was 2/70.)

Chassis Serial: HLS30-01704
Block Serial: L24-4375
Block Casting: 9Y01A

So that would be - November 1st, 1969 apparently.

Cool, I'm glad to see a 9Y code. That solves the mystery of the 11/69 castings.

It looks like all but one of the engines in Carl's summary have a code indicating they were cast before or during the month on the door tag. I wonder why AZ-240z's 01/71 car would have a code of 1616L? That should mean the engine was cast in June 1971.

-Mike

[kats]

Thank you Carl.

Jon,
I am also excited about seeing 9Y code.

As Mike told us, I was thinking same way. They would have made enough blocks before entering Nov and Dec.

Do you all remember production figures in 1969 for S30?
[May D 1, E 1]
[ Jun D 1, E 0]
[Jul D 2, E 2]
[Aug D 6, E 1]
[Sep D 9, E 2]
[Oct D 48, E 52]
[Nov D 214, E 388]
[Dec D 688, E 97]
D is domestic,E is export model

I have been kept wondering Long time since we got this infomation from Nissan Shatai,
why in Dec 1969, they suddenly slow down making S30 for export?
In this case, that is 240Z (Left hand and Right hand) while domestic S30 was increasing
its figure good,what happened for 240Z?

I have heard some Nissan people like Mr.K, Mr.Matsuo, Mr.Uemura e.t.c. they all told me 240Z had to stay in Japan(I guess factory or port) in late 1969 because of some problems had to be solved.They were not pointed me out ploblems exactly, but from the test report in Oct to Dec 1969 in North America, the crew reported vibration and road noise, and steering kick back were main ploblem at that time.

I still do not know, How many 240s had to stay?Where were they staying?
What kind of work (replacement parts) had 240Zs received especially the cars Oct - Dec which already rolled out ?
When Nissan released those export 240Z ?

And, about the block,I guess there were only few Dec 1969 casting block made because of these "HOLD 240Z" at Japan.
Even they would have stopped making in Nov when Nissan judged the Holding,it could be happend Nissan would have enough blocks for the rest of cars running in the assembling line.

kats

[KAL7467]

great thread guys I learned a lot found out that mine is l24 013529 and matches my VIN HLS30 10068 on the strut tower stamp...this makes me happy since for some reason I thought it may have been Frankensteined since the valve cover is not one of the earlier ones that the OP mentioned with ohc 2400 on it

[WDILL]

More data to use in next update:
1970 240Z 901 white / blue int, VIN HLS30-03435, matching engine L24 006302, E31 0321A, E31 Head, NISSAN 2400 OHC cover, build 4/70.

It appears that block is 1970 Mar 21 A (????)

Wally

[Carl Beck]

Could No Longer EDIT the list at Post #75 - so had to recreate it here with the update.
FWIW,
Carl B.

= = = = = = = =
To Recap what we have so far in this thread..and update as we proceed...

L24 107		 E31	92124	FSM

L24-2130 	 E31	9828G 	10/69	HLS30-00032 	Mike B

L24-2396 	 E31	9901D	11/69	HLS30-00210	Mike B

L24-2465    	 E31   	9901F  		HLS30 00215	mdbrandy

L24-2585 	 E31	9X04C	11/69	HLS30-00331	Mike B

L24-3260		 E31	9901A	12/69	HLS30-00587	Carl B

L24 3199		 E31	9628A	01/70	HLS30-01366	Johnny'O

L24-3652 	 E31	9X04F	01/70	HLS30-01590	Mike B

L24-4375		 E31	9Y01A	02/70	HLS30-01704	JonnyRock

L24-004621	 E31	0126C	01/70	????		BonziLon

L24-005562	 E31	02121	03/70	HLS30-02156	Kats

L24-005757	 E31	0327B	04/70	HLS30-02725	ol'red70

L24-05778 	 E31 	0320A   	04/70 			abas

L24-006302	 E31	0321A	04/70	HLS30-03435	WDILL

L24 010878 	 E31 	0660K  	07/70	HLS30-07715  	Napa Bill

L24-011821			08/70	HLS30-08323	daddz



L24-026313 	 P30 	1109A  	01/71	HLS30-19867	zztom

L24-027116  	 P30 	1616L 	01/71	HLS30-20419 	AZ-240z

L24 O27310 	 P30  	 	01/71	HLS30-20390	deadflo 

L24-032875 	 P30  		03/71	HLS30 25734 	lonetreesteve

L24-039190	 P30 	1408a 	05/71  	HLS30-31306  	mlc240Z

L24-123315			08/72	HLS30-98122	ChrisA

FWIW
Carl B.

[KAL7467]

Mine is
L24 013529 E31 09/70 VIN HLS30 10068 KAL7467 not sure where I get that other number that I am missing.

[Carl Beck]

KAL7467
See Post #27 - Kats expressed an interest in the engine block casting codes. That is how the list I Posted got started.

Kats shows a picture of the block casting codes - and that seems to be the number you are missing.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[kats]

Hi Carl,

Thank you for "recap" , that is very useful.

kats

[JohnnyO]

Here is mine:

L24 03199 E31 01/70 VIN HLS30-01366 9628A

Does this date code translate to June 28 1969?

[Mike B]

9628A

Does this date code translate to June 28 1969?

It would appear so. That's interesting.

-Mike

[Carl Beck]

Added Johnny'O at Post #87

Carl B.

[kats]

Yes, it is interesting ,Johnny'O your 240Z would have a very old block , assembled late 1969.

Who has "9618@" , 18th Jun 1969 is my birthday.I want to see it.

kats

[JohnnyO]

Yes, after sifting through this thread I was surprised to see that early of a block date also.

My block serial number is also low compared to others that were "built" in 01/70. Maybe mine was pulled off the line for one reason or another.

[JohnnyO]

I've dropped this info into a spreadsheet for anyone interested. I was thinking that maybe we could add it as a tab to MikeW's online spreadsheet.

[JohnnyO]

Here's another series 1 block code:

L24 026475 P30 01/71 VIN HLS30-20123 0727L

I've added it to the spreadsheet and attached it here.

I might have missed it in the thread but does anyone know what the Alpha character at the end of the code means?

John

[JohnnyO]

I've added the tab to MikeW's online Z Car Registry. As long as Mike is ok with it we can add new entries to that workbook. I have a backup of the file saved locally for when someone decides to mess it up.

Here is the link:

http://www.editgrid.com/property/his...12?rev=1263780

John

[astrohog]

I might have missed it in the thread but does anyone know what the Alpha character at the end of the code means?

I was kinda waiting for an answer on that as well. I speculated a page or so ago that it may be an "hour code"? When I was in the food processing business, we would print the "daycode" (month day and year) as well as an "hour code" (which WAS designated by a letter), so we could determine EXACTLY WHEN (within a two-hour period) our product was produced if we had to trace backward for whatever reason.

anyone?

Regards,

astrohog

[HS30-H]

Reviving this thread to post a couple of photos of an 'interesting' ( ) engine I saw in Japan last week.

I'll let the photos speak for themselves:

Cheers,
Alan T.