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Thread: rough idle when hot

  1. #1
    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Default rough idle when hot

    I've got a stock 1973 240Z on which I have recently changed:
    1. Z therapy carbs
    2. plugs, wires, pertronix, coil, cap, roter
    3. electric fuel pump (RX7)
    4. fuel lines
    5. aluminum radiator
    6. fan and fan clutch
    7. AC system

    The car runs great when it's 75°F or less outside but as soon as it gets into the 80's bad things happen.

    1. The car idles rough and hesitates on acceleration.
    2. The temperature gauge starts moving towards the red zone.
    3. The reading on my fuel pressure gauge (installed inline just before the mechanical fuel pump) starts to pulsate and eventually goes to zero.

    I have a new fan shroud sitting on my bench, to be installed when I get some time next week so hopefully that will solve the overheating problem.

    I believe that the fuel pressure gauge may be a red herring because when I shut the car down and open the line to the gauge fuel sprays everywhere, even when it is reading zero. I'm thinking the gauge is not working.

    It feels like vapor lock to me but how so with both a mechanical and electric pump in the system?

    If this car won't run correctly at 80°F it's not going to like the summers time.

    Any thoughts?
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    RLS30-013490 oldhemi's Avatar
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    Junk in the gas tank? Pickup tube in gas take rusted/perforated? Fuel line or filter plugged?
    Is your tank less than 1/2 filled? If so, try filling it up and see if it solves the problem. These zuckers are notorious for gas tank problems.

    What with the low mileage of your car, I would not be surprised if it sat for long periods of time letting the gas tank rust. Mine did! I wonder if the temperature outside today and yesterday here in Houston is a red herring as far as the performance is concerned. The temp gauge climbing like it did is worrisome.

    Are you running a return line to the gas tank? This helps keep the fuel cooler. The electric pump was added in '73 to help with vapor lock.

    If you DONT run your newly installed A/C, does it run cooler? Maybe its just a stuck thermostat?

    Just playing devils advocate here, your previous posts indicate that you know what you are doing.
    Original owner of early '74 260Z that was rode hard and put away wet. Gonna try to revive it from a long sleep. I am old enough to know better - right, like that's ever gonna happen.
    Pictures of La cagada marrón

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    Registered User Walter Moore's Avatar
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    Could it just be that the fuel mixture is too lean for hot weather?

    I also notice that you didn't list a thermostat among the items you replaced.
    '71 240Z, Because any fool can drive fast in a straight line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldhemi View Post
    Junk in the gas tank? Pickup tube in gas take rusted/perforated? Fuel line or filter plugged?
    Is your tank less than 1/2 filled? If so, try filling it up and see if it solves the problem. These zuckers are notorious for gas tank problems.

    Are you running a return line to the gas tank? This helps keep the fuel cooler. The electric pump was added in '73 to help with vapor lock.

    If you DONT run your newly installed A/C, does it run cooler? Maybe its just a stuck thermostat?
    I don't think that there is junk in the tank but I could be wrong. I dropped the tank recently and did not notice any corrosion when I poked a flashlight in. I am also running a prefilter before the electric pump.

    I believe the issue is temperature related as it seems repeatable. When I start the car it runs great but if I let it idle in the driveway with the AC on it starts to idle badly. I have not tried it with the AC off but I will give it a try tomorrow.

    I am running the stock return line.

    The tank is about 2/3 full currently but I will fill it up to see if this has an effect.

    I did not think about the thermostat. Could this be it?
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Moore View Post
    Could it just be that the fuel mixture is too lean for hot weather?
    This is my first carb'ed vehicle. Is it typical to have to richen the mixture when the weather gets hot? I was very happy with the mixture in cooler conditions. Great idle, excellent tip in, no pinging and nice consistent plugs.

    It's easy to fatten it up a click or two and see what happens. Something else for the trouble shooting list!
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    RLS30-013490 oldhemi's Avatar
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    I am happy for you that your tank is good. You are probably OK with the fuel flow. The only other thing related to that is the filter (and magnet) in the stock electric pump. Doubt it now if there is any problem there. I have read folks complaining about the accuracy of a fuel pressure gauge. I dunno if some brands are better than others.

    We haven't even got warm yet and your temp gauge is climbing - that is a concern. I hope that its as easy as a thermostat. These cars will run warm with prolonged idling. Nissan tried many fixes including cutting a hole in the hood and installing a "scoop" over it - some worked. You might want to consider a 160 degree thermostat.

    Does the problem clear up when you are driving? Maybe with a/c off?
    Does the temp gauge go down when driving?
    Does the upper radiator hose get hard as a rock? This is sometimes an indication of a bad head gasket. They usually blow out on the rear 2 cylinders. NOT saying that's where you are at yet.

    Check for wet on the bottom of the water pump sometime after it has been warmed up. Marginal water pump will cause high temps - ask me how I know!

    I am not discounting WM's post. But, I dont think that you will have to worry about mixture adjustment yet because it just has not been hot enough! But you could be borderline on your adjustment. Zednobi is running SU's. He lives down towards Galveston.

    There are some interesting threads over at hybridz on cooling. Those cats are always pushing the limits on these cars engines WAY over what the original engineers would ever have envisioned. 4 row radiators, dual cooling fans, drilling holes in the head for extra cooling at the rear, etc
    Last edited by oldhemi; 03-14-2010 at 08:57 PM.
    Original owner of early '74 260Z that was rode hard and put away wet. Gonna try to revive it from a long sleep. I am old enough to know better - right, like that's ever gonna happen.
    Pictures of La cagada marrón

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    beandip beandip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve91tt View Post
    I've got a stock 1973 240Z on which I have recently changed:
    1. Z therapy carbs
    2. plugs, wires, pertronix, coil, cap, roter
    3. electric fuel pump (RX7)
    4. fuel lines
    5. aluminum radiator
    6. fan and fan clutch
    7. AC system

    The car runs great when it's 75°F or less outside but as soon as it gets into the 80's bad things happen.

    1. The car idles rough and hesitates on acceleration.
    2. The temperature gauge starts moving towards the red zone.
    3. The reading on my fuel pressure gauge (installed inline just before the mechanical fuel pump) starts to pulsate and eventually goes to zero.

    I have a new fan shroud sitting on my bench, to be installed when I get some time next week so hopefully that will solve the overheating problem.

    I believe that the fuel pressure gauge may be a red herring because when I shut the car down and open the line to the gauge fuel sprays everywhere, even when it is reading zero. I'm thinking the gauge is not working.

    It feels like vapor lock to me but how so with both a mechanical and electric pump in the system?

    If this car won't run correctly at 80°F it's not going to like the summers time.

    Any thoughts?
    ZTharpy carbs . The best. RX-7 pump great I have run one of these for years. One big thing here. ALWAYS install a in line filter before the pump. This is the only pump I am using. On your return line. On the end of the fuel rail where it connects to the return. Check to make sure the tiny metered hole is clear. This metered hole maintains the pressure , or helps to. But if it is clogged the flow back to the tank is limited and the stationary gas will heat up and cause it to boil in the line. Have you checked the thermostat? if not take a cooking pot and half fill it with water use a can like a soup size and half fill it with water. Put the thermostat in the can and the can in the pot. use a candy thermometer in the with the thermostat and put it all on a stove and heat it . Watch the thermometer and the STAT and see at what temp it opens. This might surprise you. Give these things a look and get back to us with you find. My '73 with the stock radiator never over heated regardless of the high temp on the road. If these things are in good condition you should not have any trouble. So have a second look. Even with the alum rad. 50% anti freeze regardless where you live. Trust me.
    Gary
    I'd rather die while I am living than live while I am dieing. CZC 1887 IZCC 12602 Member of NorthWest Z Car Club

  8. #8
    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldhemi View Post
    Does the problem clear up when you are driving? Maybe with a/c off?
    Does the temp gauge go down when driving?
    Does the upper radiator hose get hard as a rock? This is sometimes an indication of a bad head gasket. They usually blow out on the rear 2 cylinders. NOT saying that's where you are at yet.

    Check for wet on the bottom of the water pump sometime after it has been warmed up. Marginal water pump will cause high temps - ask me how I know!
    Oldhemi, thanks for the feedback. To answer your questions...

    I currently have only seen overheating when idling (3 min.?) with AC on.
    The temperature gauge

    The temperature goes back down as soon as the car starts moving.

    The rad hose gets somewhat hard when hot but not harder than other cars I have worked on.

    I will check for wet water pump tonight.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

  9. #9
    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beandip View Post
    ALWAYS install a in line filter before the pump.

    On your return line. On the end of the fuel rail where it connects to the return. Check to make sure the tiny metered hole is clear.

    Have you checked the thermostat?
    Beandip, I am running two in-line filters (one before each pump). I will check the fuel rail and t-stat tonight and get back to you.

    Thanks very much for the feedback.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

  10. #10
    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    I took the car out at lunch today, more observations:

    1. While idling, waiting at the drive through (5min?), 70°F outside, AC off, the temperature gauge moved up slightly (half way?). The car started to idle a little rough and stumbled slightly as I pulled away. After 1 block of 40 mph, all was good again. Stable idle, temperature gauge down.

    2. The fuel pump is loud some times times and other times it is quiet.


    Theory:

    1. Fuel pickup issue is causing the fuel pump to intermittently make noise because of air in the system.

    2. Unexplained cooling issue(s).

    Plan:

    1. Replace thermostat and water pump. Both are inexpensive and current parts of of unknown origin.
    2. Install fan shroud
    3. Drop tank and check pickup/fittings more carefully.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    I will advise that you replace the bolts on the water pump also. They have a tendency to break if they are reused to many times. I'm talking from experience here as I broke on when I replaced mine on my 280. Luckily it was only the head so most of the bolt was outside and I pulled it out. But please buy new bolts. You don't want to spend hours trying to get a broken bolt out of your engine block. You can get both (pump and bolts) from MSA. They work rather well from what I can tell. (I'm running one at the moment)

    I'm not sure what electric pump you have but I've been told by many Datsun guys that the electric pumps are fairly loud. Mine is rather loud all the time but but again its on a 280z so it could be different.

    Jan
    1976 280Z
    HLS30288273

  12. #12
    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pomorza View Post
    I will advise that you replace the bolts on the water pump also.
    Good tip, bolts on order.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    RLS30-013490 oldhemi's Avatar
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    Beandip is one of "da mans" that I follow on Z's. He should have some good input here. From what I have read, there is some sort of nozzle in the hard line in the return. It is some sort of metering deal. I dont have the hard lines anymore, so I cant help there. It is sounding a little like fuel "boiling".

    Good tip on the wp bolts. Maybe some neversize on the new ones? I hope that you can remove them w/o breaking them. I have a spare L28 sitting here with a broken wp bolt and some sort of silver colored goop that matched the aluminum color so well that I never noticed the broken bolt when I picked the engine up!

    My Z blew a head gasket on cylinder 5 back in '86 or so. Symptoms were running like it was on 4-5 cylinders at times and then clearing up at other times. I can not remember if it was worse at low speed and idle or not. I am pretty sure that my temp gauge was running hotter also. I had a friend who worked on Z's part time and had done many headgaskets. He listened to my description of my problem on the phone and immediately stated "headgasket". He came over that weekend with the tool - wooden stake - to hold the cam chain tensioner in place and we were done real quick. It helps when you have an expert make a house call. I digress.

    If its idling for 3 minutes and getting hot, you could wait to see if your thermostat kicks in and its starts cooling down w/o driving the car - if it keeps getting hotter it could be the thermostat - or not.

    Open the hood and put a box fan in front of your radiator and see if this environment keeps the car cool. If so, its probably not your head gasket and more likely a fuel issue. Hopefully someone can chime in if this is a valid test.

    I agree with your plan to do the thermostat 1st. As least check it like Beandip outlines and you can also see what temp its rated at.
    Here is a tip - do not use the wife's best pot or her candy thermometer. Even with her permission, it can be a sly trick to get new pots and pans! Even a cheap electric frying pan even has a temp gauge built in!
    Original owner of early '74 260Z that was rode hard and put away wet. Gonna try to revive it from a long sleep. I am old enough to know better - right, like that's ever gonna happen.
    Pictures of La cagada marrón

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    Update:

    I installed a new thermostat, water pump, rad and heater hoses. I also added a MSA fan shroud.

    Observations:

    1. The fan shroud is a bit more of a challenge to install than I thought it would be. It did not fit as shipped but with a little modification all is well. Here is a link to a good post on the topic. http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ght=shroud+fit

    2. The old thermostat was a 160F unit. I replaced it with a 180F unit. I tested both side by side in hot water and both opened when they should.

    3. The old water pump looked good inside and out. However, the impeller on the new pump was iron where the old pump was aluminum. I'm not sure if it matters. The old pump was stamped "AC delco"

    4. I dunked a magnet in the old coolant and found a couple of grams of metal shavings. I'm not sure where these came from as the old water pump showed no signs of wear.

    5. The car runs fine. No leaks. The temperature gauge runs a little higher than it used to. About a needle width past half where the old thermostat would run about a needle width below half. I ran it around town and let it idle for 10 minutes. No overheating. However, it's only about 55F here today so the real test will have to wait for the sun to come out.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Well, that didn't seem to fix the issue.

    It's 70F today. If I drive for a couple of blocks I get a solid 700 RPM idle and the gauge sits a little over half way. However, after a few minutes idling the gauge goes to about 3/4 and the engine starts to cut out. It will even stall if I don't give it gas.

    I'm going to take apart the fuel system tonight to trouble shoot that end but I'm pretty sure I still have a cooling issue. New rad, pump, thermostat, hoses, fan, clutch, shroud...What's left?
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Could I have a coolant line routing issue? The PO made a few "modifications" to the routing. He capped off the line at the back of the engine on the spark plug side...



    And he capped off all of the water lines on the intake side.



    Does this look right?
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    I dropped the tank tonight and found more gunk in the tank than I had expected. The inside surface looks 99% good but there are a few rust spots which I assume is the source of the black bits floating in the bottom of the tank. I have a can of POR15 on order so hopefully after I coat the tank and replace the filters my fuel problem will be solved. Fingers crossed.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    The coolant lines on picture one are rather odd in my book. I would take them all out and go back to the standard way it should be. (which on my 280 is the lower hose attaches to the water inlet and then to the lower heater core hose. Then from the lower heater core hose it will go into the engine block via the rear intake) As for the second pictures. I'm not a 240z guy (nor expert in any means) but I believe that is either the outlet for the coolant lines that run through the intake or its for somekind of sensor. I'm not 100% positive on which one as I own a 280.

    Hope that helps.
    Jan
    1976 280Z
    HLS30288273

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    Registered User Curtis240Z's Avatar
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    The coolant blockoff looks okay on the intake side for a 240Z. Did you check to see what Beandip previously mentioned regarding the metered orifice on the metal return line above the mechanical fuel pump? I would also open the gas cap and carefully apply air pressure to the return line going back to the gas tank to verify it isn't plugged.

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis240Z View Post
    Did you check to see what Beandip previously mentioned regarding the metered orifice on the metal return line above the mechanical fuel pump?
    I plan to take all the lines and filters off and blow them down or replace as necessary while I wait for the POR15 to get here. Before I removed the tank I confirmed that I have return flow by pulling the return line from the tank and running it into a gas can. With the ignition on (car not started) fuel trickled from the return so I know the electric pump is working and the return system is not 100% blocked.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pomorza View Post
    the lower hose attaches to the water inlet and then to the lower heater core hose. Then from the lower heater core hose it will go into the engine block via the rear intake)
    Jan, thanks for the feedback. I believe that my system is plumbed the way you describe and the way it is described in previous posts(sorry for the poor photo).

    The flow comes out of the rad where it forks. Part of the flow goes to the block in the front of the engine and part goes to the upper heater hose. It comes back from the heater and into an inlet in the back of the block.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    RLS30-013490 oldhemi's Avatar
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    I think I know where you are HEADing on the cooling issue. You have attacked all of the smaller items on overheating problems - and more with the radiator shroud!

    Since you have tested the car with more than 1/2 tank of gas, you probably have ruled out the pick up tube being perforated. Because the tube bottom sits off of the bottom of the tank, its doubtful that some rust will be a problem. Plus you have a filter between the tank and the electric fuel pump. I have never checked the return line's output, so I have no knowledge on how much of a spray should be coming out of there. Hopefully someone will chime in about that.

    I admire your "get r done" attitude and the quickness in all of this work. I have a Slant pressure tester if you wish to borrow it. It will tell you if you have a compression leak. I live on the north side - 249 and Louetta. Its about 4 miles north of the 1960/249 intersection.
    PM me if you want my phone number.
    Original owner of early '74 260Z that was rode hard and put away wet. Gonna try to revive it from a long sleep. I am old enough to know better - right, like that's ever gonna happen.
    Pictures of La cagada marrón

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldhemi View Post
    I have a Slant pressure tester if you wish to borrow it. It will tell you if you have a compression leak.
    Oldhemi, I very much appreciate your offer and I might just take you up on it. The car is up on jack stands at the moment and the fuel system is in pieces. I will be trouble shooting this weekend and coating the tank. If all goes well I hope to have it together for the next round of testing next weekend.

    I plan to use an IR thermometer to track where the heat is going in the cooling system and use that data to figure out where to look next.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    RLS30-013490 oldhemi's Avatar
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    An IR might be helpful! I also have one of those. IIRC, aim it below the spark plugs at the gasket for variables comparison. #5 is the troublesome booger.

    Good luck on the tank job!
    Original owner of early '74 260Z that was rode hard and put away wet. Gonna try to revive it from a long sleep. I am old enough to know better - right, like that's ever gonna happen.
    Pictures of La cagada marrón

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    Registered User steve91tt's Avatar
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    Update:

    I took the fuel filters off and blew down the fuel lines. I also cut the filters open to see how much gunk had accumulated. Much to my surprise I found the inside of the filters to be perfectly clean! I guess my tank isn't as dirty as I had thought.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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    I switched out the rad cap, added foam strips to the spaces around the fan shroud, wrapped the metal fuel lines with rubber fuel hose and it looks like the problem is gone. It was 75F yesterday, I idled the car for 10 minutes with the AC on and blowing 40F at the vent and the engine temperature gauge stayed near the middle where it does during normal driving.

    I'm not sure exactly which of the small things I did to fixed the problem but with summer coming I'm just glad that the car is handling heat better than it did. Hopefully it will do as well at 95F as it does at 75F.

    Thanks for all the help and suggestions along the way.
    Steve

    1973 240Z (daily driver)
    1971 240Z (track car)

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