First time ever, My car just died

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I was going to visit a friend on a mid 60's degree blue afternoon. And car was running great. At the light where the car had been running perfectly, it just turned off. I mean just stopped cold. Would not crank to save my life.

I pushed her off, and noticed I still had 3 psi of fuel pressure and the car cranked well. Oil pressure and temp were spot on.


So this leave ONE thing. Electrical. I am betting my bottom dollar the ignition module in my Mallory just up and died for some unforseen and unpredictable reason. That is my first guess and where I will start the investigation.

However if you guys can come up with anything else, ANYTHING, let me know.

45 minutes later my baby was home off the flatbed. How humiliating. THe tow truck guy was extremely compassionate about the car and did not harm it thankfully, so kudos to him.

[cbuczesk]

Pull a plug wire or coil wire and check for spark. Sounds like electrical to me.

Chuck

[conedodger]

I suspect you're correct. Got a set of points to replace the optical module with?

[Gary in NJ]

it just turned off. I mean just stopped cold. Would not crank to save my life.

When you say it would not crank, do you mean that the starter will not engage? If that is the case I would look towards the fusible link or the ignition switch.

[Blue]

Yeah electrical.... I hope to be down in Houston for a few weeks in May...maybe we can rebuild a zx distributor some evening

[mlc240z]

Zedyone, coincidentally was just reading your old rebuild thread. Not the first time you had issues with that dizzy.
Why not just try going back to your original Pertronix for now?

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Well I am going to run set of diagnostics on the module today. It is fairly straight forward. I have two other OEM dizzies with a pertronix in them that work fine. But I am almost positive it is the module... I will let you guys know when I start the diagnostics.

I plan to hook up a timing light and turn the car over just to see if I get a spark through. Then I will do a voltage trace to see what is getting what voltage. After that if all is normal, I will the ignition module test.

One thing I encountered is that there are two ignition modules that say they are direct drop in replacements for my 45 series mechancial advance Mallory. One is 90 bucks one is 45 bucks. They both say they are for replacement of your burnt out factory It is very strange.. One is model 905 one is model 6100M I may need to call Mallory for this.

[FastWoman]

Before you dump money and time into random problems, make certain you have power. Turn your key to IGN, and run a volt meter through all your fuses on both sides. They should all have 12V. If a lot of them DON'T have 12V, then it could indeed be either your ignition switch or a fusible link, as Gary suggested. I remember once having a fusible link go out on my '75 Z, and the car suddenly went stone dead as I coasted to the side of the road. It wouldn't crank or anything. I had to have it towed.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Copy that fastwoman.
I my trouble shooting plan will use extensive use of the voltmeter.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Okay, quick update

I checked the battery, it had 12.6 volts while the car was totally off.

With the ignition on, the fuel pump running I get 11.66 volts to the + side of the coil and the negative side of the coil.
My coil is still 1.5 Ohms across.

I hooked up the timing light to number one and cranked it with ZERO blinks.

I ran the check out for the Mallory called out in some instructions for trouble shooting Mallory Ignition Coils.. here

1. Remove Cap & Rotor
2. Turn Ignition Key ON
3. Is there Battery Voltage (+/- 14v) on the POSITIVE side of the coil? YES = GOOD!
4. Is there Battery Voltage (+/- 14v) on the NEGATIVE side of the coil? YES = GOOD! NO or Much Less Than Positive Side of Coil = BAD!
5. Voltage Drop Test - Voltmeter still on Negative side of coil. Voltage Drops BELOW 2.0v when the optic is blocked= GOOD! NO Drop = BAD!
6. Voltage RECOVERS to BATTERY VOLTAGE after unblocking the optic? YES = GOOD NO = BAD

I failed number 5.

When blocking my optic, nothing changed at all. So poof there went the Ignition module. Now the question is why

[Mike W]

Steve,

As you know I run a similar setup in my car and have always been concerned about the reputation that the ignition modules have for blowing out due to voltage spikes. Based on that I installed a Mallory surge supressor / power filter quite some time ago and have never had an issue. It is a direct connect to the mallory distributor circuit and comes with all of the right connectors to install it inline with the Mallory Unilite. Part number is Mallory 29371.

Also I had a similar incident as you about 9 months ago (actuall shortly before the rally). I was headed to downtown Austin for a photo shoot that I had been invited to by Hagerty Insurance and my car just died on Mopac / Loop 1. Not a great place to be on a Monday Am at about 9:30.

In any case it was definitely something electrical and once it was towed home I zeroed in on the Mallory module as well as the Mallory MSD ignition system. Long story short, I went to a local speed shop and picked up a real MSD ignition as well as a new Mallory module (which they surprisingly had on the shelf). It turned out to be the 6100M. The store owner told me that the actual replacement part for my dizzy was something different (I believe it may have been the 905) but that this module was identical and 1/2 the price. So if you need to get one the 6100M will probably do the trick. I carry with me at all times for a spare but have never had to use it.

As it turns out, it was not the module that was may issue (a fuse if you can believe that) and so I never had a chance to try it, but it looks identical to the original one in the Unlite.

I'm very happy with my Unilite and have never had any problems, but perhaps the inclusion of the power surge module has saved the day for me.

Hope this helps you out.

Mike.

[Diseazd]

It always amazes me why Z owners try to change things that work so well.....the stock point distributers work so well.....why futz with them! The only two times I can remember losing everything in a Z was when number 1, I lost a fusible link....number 2, I had a loose wire on the distributor. Zedy .....Check the crimp on your distributor connections and your fusible link...if that isn't the problem, bolt on one of those old fashioned stock distributors and see if that fixes the problem......IMO

[Blue]

Junk?: mallory ignition problem - Google Search

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I liked the flexibility the mallory gave me for my timing advance Diszead. I even went through the trouble to get an OEM one recurved prior to my Datsun Spirit Build. It never failed me. My OEM one, never failed me. I have not been let down by my OEM stuff. But I have always been in search of the ability to do further tuning to suit my engines needs.

I am a believer in stock parts. But I like the flexibility of aftermarket stuff.

[FastWoman]

Check into a GM HEI retrofit -- cheap/easy ignition on a chip! Mine's been running like a champ for a couple of years or longer.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Okay, my Mallory ignition module came in as did my Mallory ignition module protector box that Mike W talked about above. So kind of them to sell a part to protect their other crappy part.

I will get them on today. I am taking off half a day to get the Z running and then I am going to an unveiling at the local Porsche of Houston of the new redesigned Cayman ! Hoping for a test drive.

[conedodger]

Okay, my Mallory ignition module came in as did my Mallory ignition module protector box that Mike W talked about above. So kind of them to sell a part to protect their other crappy part.

I will get them on today. I am taking off half a day to get the Z running and then I am going to an unveiling at the local Porsche of Houston of the new redesigned Cayman ! Hoping for a test drive.

Maybe you better be careful what you hope for. I hear the new Cayman is like crack. Addictive the first use... Just warning you Steve...

[Lazeum]

It happened to me also, luckily, I was 100 yds away from my house (after a 300 mi trip!)

To check the optical trigger inside the dizzy, make sure to use the cap to block the beam. I've tried with a credit card and the signal went thru at first leading me to a wrong root cause analysis.
I had a Mallory Hyfire 6AL box. This is what has fried on my setup.



I found out later that Coil resistance is a major item to check. However, if you run only a dizzy with no additional box, coil with 1.5Ohm should be fine.

[tlorber]

I read that, as a patch (version 10.2) there is a surge supressor that protects the protector box that protects their crappy ignition module coming to a parts store near you

[Carl Beck]

Amazing... My Unilite has been running fine for 35+ years now. Maybe Mallory is buying cheap parts from suppliers in SEA now.. I switched to the Unilite because I got tired of having the Points wear slighty out of spec - then having the engine pop, spudder and break-up on a hard launch or above 5500 RPM.

The only time my Z stopped dead - and refused to restart - was when the insulation on a wire from the Points wore off - and grounded the wire on the inside of the distributor. Nissan later added additional protective insulation to that wire..

Hope you get it sorted out..
FWIW,
Carl B.

[Blue]

I just had those crappy caps with electrolyte from china show up in a friend's PC that he bought 4 years ago....I thought that game ended 10 years ago. Look for bulging tops and brown leaking.

Just had some glass chipping in the cupboard when storing food storage containers on top of each other...also made in China.

The crap coming out of that country is destroying confidence and is probably killing people....what if a cap in your distributor was the cause and it went out when passing a tractor trailer in a tight spot.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Update. In 12 minutes I had the new ignition module installed. It was kind of Mallory to put that piece of crap on top where it can be easily serviced. Well the car fired right up immediately and settled to a smooth idle like nothing ever happened. I also installed the Mallory protection box inline with it, and started the car again just to be sure. Yup still works. NO warnings on if the ignition module protector box needs protecting yet!

Cone dodger, the new Cayman is positively georgous. It truely looks like nothing else (except the Boxster of course). The back end treatment really made the car absolutely perfect. It looks and reminds me of the Porsches of old.

I will make a prediction here. I think Porsche is going to move the 911 up to a GT type of car soon, and the Cayman will be its new hot shoe.

[mdec]

Purchased the same Mallory Unilite on recommendation & module went bad In < 6 Mo driving. My understanding is that a significant portion of these distributers are now Manufactured in China & after inspecting the inards of my Mallory I can well believe that. Luckily(?) my module decided to go bad during the process of re-curving (I was swopping springs) - since discovered the modules are notoriously susceptible to eos/esd type issues. As i was planing more work on the Dizzy (= more handling of the unit) , I decided to go down the re-conditioned 280ZX route & purchased a recurved unit from a shop in ORE recommended by the guy's at Ztherapy. Find I can run with more advance (w/o pinging) than the Mallory stock setup - 19 idle, 36 total v previous 8 idle 28 total.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Well the beauty of the Mallory is you can recurve it at home with a simple recurve kit. It is infinitely variable. That is if you can keep it working.

MSD needs to step up and make a better system.

Or we can all just step up our game and go to a crank trigger and call it a day.

[tlorber]

Hey Blue-a bit off topic here but my HP computer monitor went out a few years ago. After finding a forum that described the blown capacitor problem, I cracked open the case and replaced 2 caps-grand total of $3.00. It has been working great ever since. The best part was that I was able to show my kid how to do the repair. Take THAT China.

[Blue]

Thanks tlorber,

We did swap 3 caps but the pcix video slot drivers were taken out by by the cap. failures. The mainland chinese also do things like this:




Their fake crap is even getting into planes!!!


I worked for a mainland Chinese company for 4 years and the thing that most westerners do not get are:

1. It is ok to rip off and duplicate (R&D).
2. It is ok to make cheap fakes.
3. It is ok to lie and deceive...just don't get caught as it shows you are not clever.
4. The mainland Chinese way is the best way.
5. Everyone is selfish.
6. Cheat the Govt. at every opportunity. (citizen)
7. Extort the people at every opportunity (govt/mafia)
8. You can polish a turd and sell it
9. Human life has little value
10. Filthy dirty environment is ok
11. Keep aborting until you have a son
12. Anchor babies. Have that son in the USA so that you can retire there and live off social services with money streaming in untaxed from China when he graduates from a USA university in 20 years


Sorry for digressing but the difference between old and new Mallory kit failing is most likely due to Chinese parts.

[Blue]

Beware: FAKE MSD Ignitions



Counterfeit MSD 6AL Ignitions | Product Alert


SKF bearings and air bags too: The Counterfeit Report? | Counterfeit Product Alerts

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I feel ill reading that part Phil

[Zed Head]

1. It is ok to rip off and duplicate (R&D).

3. It is ok to lie and deceive...just don't get caught as it shows you are not clever.

5. Everyone is selfish.
6. Cheat the Govt. at every opportunity. (citizen)
7. Extort the people at every opportunity (govt/mafia)
8. You can polish a turd and sell it
9. Human life has little value
10. Filthy dirty environment is ok

These could all apply to America's current business and political practices. As for the first one, I went to school with an American machinist back in the 80's and he was making injection molds on the side, of a copy of an American product, for an Asian company so that they could make rip-offs in Asia to sell to the world. He used to complain about the work going "off-shore" until the opportunity came to make money from an "off-shore" company. People, around the world, just do what makes money.

Calling it a "Chinese" problem isn't keeping up with how things really work. There are probably just as many Americans, or non-Chinese, leading the effort to bring these product in to the States and other countries. The Asian workers probably have no idea where the things they make are going. They just work for contractors who produce to the specs. they're given.

I agree that we all should be aware of the counterfeiting problem but labeling it as Chinese only is misleading.

Thanks for the links.

[Blue]

The ways in mainland China are quite different from Taiwan and Hong Kong. I think it maybe from the years of oppression and breaking up families... it is very tragic.... however the norms in that country are very different and it is worth being aware of.

[Lazeum]

Well the beauty of the Mallory is you can recurve it at home with a simple recurve kit. It is infinitely variable. That is if you can keep it working.

MSD needs to step up and make a better system.

Or we can all just step up our game and go to a crank trigger and call it a day.

MSD did a neat box to get an alternative to Mallory Unilite dizzy.
They've made a 6AL-2 box where you can setup your timing curve with a computer. Then, you have to lock your dizzy advance mechanism.
MSD Digital Programmable 6AL-2

As far as I'm concerned, I've moved to Megajolt + EDIS since failure of my box. My Unilite dizzy still works fine though.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Wow, that 6AL-2 box has me slathering...

I assume that it can work with the robust OEM dizzy as well?

This is getting VERY interesting..

What does it use as a trigger?
Do you set it up at 0° at idle, or max advance at idle and let it pull timing where needed? Either way cool.

[Lazeum]

no idea, but I assume trigger will be contact in dizzy. This is just a gess but I don't see any other alternative. To get 10° of advance, you can also delay spark by 350°...?

[LeonV]

Or we can all just step up our game and go to a crank trigger and call it a day.

There's an idea! :P

I love it when people ask me how the car runs "without plug wires" (I've left the distributor in as backup, haven't used it yet).

[conedodger]

There's an idea! :P

I love it when people ask me how the car runs "without plug wires" (I've left the distributor in as backup, haven't used it yet).

Leon,
After seeing and hearing your set-up, I have no idea why you still have the distributor in. It is rock steady idle wise, and there doesn't seem to be any part of it that should be unreliable. It all comes from production vehicles that kick out some pretty hefty mileage...

[LeonV]

Leon,
After seeing and hearing your set-up, I have no idea why you still have the distributor in. It is rock steady idle wise, and there doesn't seem to be any part of it that should be unreliable. It all comes from production vehicles that kick out some pretty hefty mileage...

Thanks Rob, I agree that the crank-trigger is itself reliable. My work, however, may not be!

I have full confidence at this point, I've done thousands of miles on it without a hiccup (knock on wood). The distributor is in there just for fun at this point. Also, I haven't bothered to buy or make a block-off for it.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Leon, can you post pics of your setup
To me a crank trigger would be the bees knees

[LeonV]

Leon, can you post pics of your setup
To me a crank trigger would be the bees knees

You know, I don't think I've taken any good ones, just progress pics. I'll take some tonight.

For now, here's a progress pic showing the syncronization of the trigger wheel to the engine (sensor offset).

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Strange thing happened on my way to the car show this weekend. This was the first time I drove the car since I installed the new ignition module. The car was pinging like crazy. If I was as low rpm in 3rd or 4th just giving it moderate gas would make the engine ping like mad. This had never happened since I recurved my dizzy long before the rally. But the first drive after the new ignition module I get it all over the place

Now, this would seem to indicate that there is significant difference between one ignition module and another. Yet another sign that Mallory quality control seems to be a bit shakey.

[Mike W]

Steve,

I've been thinking about this a lot. Is there any chance that you may have unhooked or dislodged one of the timing curve springs when you re-installed the new module? This would represent less force on the advance mechanism causing it to advance too quickly and resulting in the pinging that you are getting.

Just a thought. Otherwise I can't see why the new module would do this unless it was just faulty to begin with (It's Mallory so that could be it) or was installed incorrectly (not likely given that you did the work).

Mike.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I am going to check the timing when I get home hopefully.

It should be 14 ° BTDC at 1000 rpm.
It should be 31 ° BTDC at 2800 rpm.

I will let you know if it shifted. IF that is not it, then I will put some good gas in it, as that 92 may be exasperating the problem. It is already on the ragged edge with 93 octane. That 92 is not doing it any favors....

[steve91tt]

I recently swapped out my Mallory distributor for a rebuilt stock dizzy from a 1976 280Z. The stock 1976 unit can be used to directly trigger the magnetic pickup on a MSD box. I've thus far been very happy with the results. Other than the MSD box this system should provide OEM reliability and if you go with the programmable MSD box then you should have the flexibility you are looking for. Not as sexy as as trigger wheel setup but performance should be the same or maybe a little better due to the higher voltage and multiple sparks provided by the MSD box. Just my $0.02.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I may look into picking up a 280Z dizzy.

Now is the curve from your 280Z dizzy OEM, or do you rely on your MSD box for the ignition curve?

[steve91tt]

I'm using the stock timing curve because I using this setup on my track car which lives it life between 3000 and 7500 RPM. Solid, stead and reliable 34° of maximum advance is all I care about. If you are looking at the 280Z dizzy you might consider the 75/76 model as it uses a magnetic pickup and when coupled with an MSD box it does not require an extra ignition module as the later model units do. Dave Rebello recommended this setup to me and talked me out of going with a crank trigger system. In his opinion it's the most reliable ignition setup for my application.

[LeonV]

You know you want to Zedy...







Still haven't cleaned up my wiring...

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Well some interesting news on this topic.

I checked my timing today after doing nothing but replacing the ignition module. I had severe pinging last time I drove it, and no wonder.

At 900 rpm, I was sitting at 21 degrees BTDC!!!!!!!

Again all I did was replace the ignition module on the Mallory. I have no idea why it would effect timing so much. I had it set at 14 BTDC, but just replacing the module the tolerance stack up and module delta equated to 7 degrees more change in timing.

Crazy

[Stanley]

Heard Mallory was ok because they are assembled by older children. Seriously, if their stuff is going downhill it's bad news. A lot of professional racers have used nothing but Mallory for many years.