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Thread: Z Restoration Progam

  1. #1
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Default Z Restoration Progam

    I'm starting a discussion about the Z Restoration Program. Far too often, I see the program described as "Factory", have been guilty of using the F word myself, and objections have been justly raised in the past about the misleading term. I hope to gather accurate information about the restoration program in a comprehensive thread. Please refer back to the thread "wow-just listed". http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...3&page=1&pp=15 where this thread idea started.

    I want to assemble a comprehensive discussion of the subject. There are many aspects about this program that apply, such as the financial health of Nissan in 1996 and the discontinuation of Z car sales in the United States. There is no doubt that the Z Restoration Program was a marketing ploy, but a lot of interesting stuff can be discussed including the “value” of these cars. I want facts and references; serial numbers, colors, special fitment features – an accurate accounting of all the cars. I have started a bibliography. Look up the references. This is going to be along term project, so go out and do your homework and come back with your contributions. No bitching, dissing, or bad-mouthing allowed. The F word is out – don’t use it.

    V12horse – “There is a big difference between saying "Factory restored" (Which this car was not!) and being restored by respected restorers authorized by selected Nissan dealers (Which this car was!). I don't want to start a war about this, but I hope you and others realize the difference between the two”.

    Bambikiller240 – “It was not the dealers that authorized the refurbishment of theses cars. AFAIK, It was Nissan USA”.

    “Nissan is proud to announce our Z Restoration Program, a trailblazing venture committed to elevating vintage 240Zs to their original glory and, thanks to today’s technology, even beyond”. (Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A. Nissan Z Restoration. 7-97-5M-CMG)

    See the two brochures -yellow and red - shown on the left side of the attached picture? I have those. The red one is entitled "rebirth" and describes what is officially termed as the "Z Restoration Program". Initiated in 1996, the Nissan program contracted private businesses to restore selected HLS30U types purchased by Nissan and resold through selected Nissan Dealerships termed “The Z Store”. The actual Nissan production facilities in Japan (factory) had nothing to do with the program. The 40-odd cars were produced by Classic Datsun Motorsports, PierreZ, and I thought Banzai Motorworks, however:

    Daddz – “I can safely say without a doubt that Banzai Motorworks was not involved in restoring any of the 50 or so Z cars purchased by Nissan N.A. However, Mike did sell 50 of his reproduction "OK" stickers to Nissan N.A. (When it's good it's good).
    The only two shops ever mentioned in the magazine articles of that era were Classic Datsun and Pierre Z. In one of the articles there was mention of a mass purchase consisting of somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 cars. There is a photograph depicting a bunch of them all chained together much like prisoners; only problem is that about a third of them ever saw the loving hands of either shop.
    You may recall that on ebay in two separate auctions some of what was left of the program was sold off very cheaply. In the first auction a BRG 240Z still installed on its dolly awaiting re-assembly that sold for approximately $6-8,000. As proof of that car's tie to the program was a letter from Nissan, N.A. written to the State of California asking that the new owner not be responsible for any fines or fees should the car be re-registered in the State of California. In another auction a lot of about 10-15 cars was offered at a ridiculously low sum of money and if I remember the auction wasn't completed. In that second auction it made mention that the cars were awaiting the "factory restoration"--the auction wording not mine-- and that since the program terminated early the remaining cars were to be sold off”.


    So fire up your scanners, practice your copy-clip technique and lets see if we can assemble a discussion of serious, complete, and accurate information about these babes. I gathered some information from PierreZ when I was out in California last spring. I’ll be working on posting some of it. Especially the way the engines were installed. Why, might you ask, am I interested in this? Because, I’m restoring two cars. I think this is THE standard by which we look at restorations of the 240Z. There is no intention implied that there are not other shops performing equal or better workmanship. The Z Restoration Program is simply a benchmark.

    Bibliography
    http://www.classicdatsun.com/zz/nissan.html

    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ry+restoration

    http://www.zonc.org/TechnicalInformation/VintageZ.html

    http://www.geocities.com/z-car/rebuild.html

    http://www.geocities.com/~z-car/rebuildpics.html
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  2. #2
    Forever Cleaning Alan Pugh's Avatar
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    I along with many others will be watching this thread with great interest. Being in Australia it is very hard to get information like this, as a lot of it is gathered by people on the ground talking to other people.
    To my way of thinking anything other than a boat ride to Japan and back would discount a (insert F word here) restoration. I am also very interested as to how many aftermarket parts have been used in these cars to bring them back to "as new" condition.
    I look forward to all the information that will be forthcoming.

    Alan.

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Go for it, 26th-Z. I am glad to see a thread like this being created, and I too will be an interested follower.

    There's been such a lot of cr*p written about these cars and the whole project over the years - especially when the cars have been offered for sale - that I'd be pleased to see some substantiated and corroborated data about them.

    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    As I recall the now-defunct "Z Car Magazine" (later "Z Car and Classic Datsun") had good coverage of this topic while it was current. This included the revelation that the two aforementioned shops were actually doing the work even though Nissan initially wanted that information kept from the public. There were interviews with Les and/or Pierre and photographs of some of the work in progress. When I get back home after the holidays I'll re-read the articles and post any interesting information obtained that hasn't already been mentioned here.
    -Mike
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    How about one of you writes up a tech article when it's all figured out. It's nice to have it in one place instead of a thread with 59 replies. Just a suggestion...
    Michae

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    Way to go 26th-Z! I'm in full support of some research into this topic. If you are interested in talking with someone who was part of the factory restoration project, give Les Cannaday a call at Classic Datsun Motorsports. http://www.classicdatsun.com

    He was one of the shops selected to perform the restorations for sure....

    -- Mike
    Mike

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thanks for the Encouragement

    This is going to be quite an undertaking and I’ll need as much help as I can get. Don’t you think? Should be fun! I know there is a lot of published information out there – magazine articles and such. If anyone would like to mail information to me, use my business address; 513 Central Avenue #101, Sarasota, Florida 34236. I will gladly return material as requested, but I don’t mind copies at all. If you have magazines, post the issue and date for the bibliography. In order to obtain information, I’ll need to write e-mails and letters. Any introduction you might be able to give me would be appreciated so that I’m not given the brush-off as if I were some quack or ricer fanatic.

    I seem to have more information about the PierreZ operations than anything else. Most of the info I have is PierreZ related and I have this nifty video. Perhaps still photos can be made from the DVD to post. I have almost nothing about Les Canaday’s involvement.

    Nissan contacted Pierre Z Car Center in September 1996 based on references they had about their work. An agreement had been reached by October and the first car was completed in February 1997. Nissan envisioned restoration of approximately 200 cars and Pierre Perrot proposed limiting his private customer services in order to accommodate the Nissan project. Facilities had to be organized to physically restore the cars and special equipment such as body dollies and rotisseries had to be fabricated. Initially, the agreement was for restoration of one car to see how the project was going to work. (See photo below) By May of 1997, the project was in full swing and Katayama san visited the facilities at Pierre Z Car Center in Hawthorne, California.

    A number of candidate cars were purchased based on their condition and “restorability”. Primary emphasis was placed on the condition of the body shell – meaning “rust free”, and matching serial numbers were verified. The cars were disassembled by hand and all parts were cataloged and examined. Parts that could not be restored were replaced with new (NOS) or original (OEM) or from donor cars. We will get into the parts conversation more in depth as we will see that parts became a defining issue with the program. To the best of my knowledge, all the selected candidates were 1970 – 1972 model years. I am not aware of any serial number accounting at this time, however I believe all the cars were HLS30U types.

    During this time, ten Nissan dealers were selected to sell the “Vintage Zs” based on the past sales performance and interest of the dealers. They were:
    Jake Sutherlin Nissan, Tampa, FL
    Sutherlin Nissan, Marietta, GA
    Esserman Nissan, Miami, FL
    Coggin Nissan, Jacksonville, FL
    Universal City Nissan, Los Angeles, CA
    Performance Nissan, Duarte, CA
    Stevens Creek Nissan, Santa Clara, CA
    Bankston Nissan, Irving, TX
    Courtesy Nissan, Richardson, TX
    Brown's Fairfax Nissan, Fairfax, VA
    I don’t know much about the dealer distribution program. It seems that initially, the distribution was California focused, but as you can see, there are three dealers in Florida for me to contact. I find it very interesting that Bob Sharp Nissan is not on the list and that the list does not contain distribution in the Northeast and Midwest.

    For those of you who own one of these babes, or know someone who does, please describe the car and post photos with the model date, date of original manufacture (on the door jamb) and serial numbers including the Vintage Z number. As parts and originality seem to be an issue, the peculiarities of your car would be very interesting. I can assure everyone that strict adherence to part / year correctness was NOT made and that many cars were equipped with modifications. We can get into that issue as well.

    Thanks for all the interest!
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    Default Restoration Program Research

    Speaking of NOS parts, I can remember my local dealer calling me to see If I wanted any of our regions NOS parts. They had a list of the available parts and called to let know that it would be my last chance to get them due to the restoration program requesting them. I will try to find my parts receipt to get a date. Also just to make sure we don't double up on research I have requested information from Les at Classic Datsun such as Ser#, Color, which of the 10 Z Stores they went to, etc... JLP

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    Registered User jurven240z's Avatar
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    I spoke with Marc Jones (former Datsun Alley owner) looking for some parts and he was telling me about his involvement in the project. Buddy of mine bought a 70 shell for his turbo built. He had alot of information and knowledge about the project.
    PearlBlueZ
    5/70

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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    Do we get the discount rate on the book that comes from all this?

  11. #11
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Would you put me in touch with Marc, please, Juan? My e-mail address is cwenzel at earthlink dot net I'm still raising the troops and would love to speak to him. If anyone wants to write me, put Z Restoration Program in the subject line. Thanks

    I had the chance to express some other thoughts to a private message this morning. I want to emphasize respect for the privacy of car owners and copyright laws. I plan to put watermarks on information I scan and describe where I got the information. I don't think we really need to know who owns what cars. What comments do you have concerning copyright issues, Mike? Let's keep this discussion professional.
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  12. #12
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    You are writing the book, Tomohawk!
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    Jurven240z,
    Hows it going? Long time no see!

    26th-Z
    Hi Christopher. I'm the one that Juan was talking about, who purchased the shell from Marc.

    Marc still has parts left from the Z restoration program. The shell's title was still under Nissan, and I have the letter written to the State of California asking to wave the fines/fees for re-registering. He's a nice guy, and he helped get me in touch with Matt Maloney, a body shop manager who painted a few of the cars for the program. My car is at the shop that Matt currently works at (he brought his paint and body guy over from the old shop) awaiting paint. I'll go ahead and e-mail you his contact information.
    - Eric

    Series I 240z rolling chassis

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Thanks Eric! I had remembered that there was at third shop involved - Datsun Alley. I was also told today that Marc sold the business. More as that develops.

    Let's add to the bibliography of essential reading:

    Long, Brian; "Datsun Z, Fairlady to 280Z", Veloce Publishing 1998 - chapter 8, "Buying and Restoring an Early Z".

    The pictures I posted of the silver car came from Nissan N.A. press pack about the Z Restoration Program. Those and several more are published in Long's book. "An amazing restoration - the result of around 300 hours' work. Nissan North America will sell the restored cars through a limited number of dealers across the States, with prices running at around $25,000". The postscript paragraphs of Chapter 8 describe the essence of the program. Many of the points we have discussed in the past, in past threads, are brought to light in this reading. We are going to discover / uncover quite a few issues that have been points of debate in the past; that which may debate what Nissan published to the press concerning the intent of the program.
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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    Nissan North America will sell the restored cars through a limited number of dealers across the States, with prices running at around $25,000....
    Is that the value the insurance companies will use, or would they go with the N.A.D.A. book value of about $3,000 - $8,000 because the 240Z "isn't a very desireable car."
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 12-27-2004 at 02:24 PM.

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    Chris,
    Since Brown's Fairfax Nissan is about as far North and East as the program went I will endeavour to contact them this week to see if they have any information with regard to the program. Fairfax is only about 30 miles from my house and I can stop by my grandfather's house since he lives about 10 minutes from the dealer (good excuse to drop off one of my cars for winter storage?).
    An interesting fact that some or none of us may have been aware of is that one could have bought the restored cars using Nissan Motor Acceptance for financing! One of my fellow ZCCNV members has a bunch of information and since he doesn't post here he asked if I post for him. When I receive the information I will be sure to post in this thread and credit him appropiately.
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Research Mission Scheduled

    Thanks Bob and thanks Jerry! I'm taking the day off Thursday to devote to a research mission. I have arranged an audience to one of the great collector LibraryZ. Bob, your connection is another great LibraryZ. We should find some interesting information and expand our bibliography. Jerry, I have not contacted Les. Go for it!

    I want to mention that I am hoping to come up with some other interesting information from my visit to the LibraryZ. It seems some documents I have been looking for are closer than I thought. Should be fun.

    I also want to mention some of the private e-mail I have been receiving and thank everyone for their interest and writing to me; their suggestions, contacts and comments. I think I discovered the origins of the F word. I also think we might run into some sensitive issues about the Z Restoration Program as we get further into this.

    I want to reiterate my intention to establish a comprehensive bibliography of the published material on the subject. Not that all the written material is completely factual, rather identifying what was said and in what context. It would be a dream to account for all the cars. Lets see how far we get. How many of you saved pictures from Restoration Program cars that have been on eBay or other classifieds?

    Here is a blurb from the Nissan publication "Rebirth"; 1997. "When available, genuine Nissan parts are used. And in those cases when non-Nissan parts are used, quality non-OEM parts are approved by Nissan engineers, specifically for use on these restored cars".

    "Some vehicles shown with optional equipment. See actual vehicle for complete accuracy". And ..."not all model years, colors or option combinations will be available".
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Add to the Bibliography:

    Sport Compact Car magazine, August 1997
    Autoweek, May 26, 1997
    Automobile magazine, June 1997

    Here are a couple of scans from the Nissan publication "Rebirth", copyright Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A.
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    Default A little P.I. work required...

    26th, this is great idea - even for us over here in Australia.

    Given that the Z-restoration program can be classified as relatively 'recent history' in the overall scheme of Z-cars, there must be a good number of Nissan people connected with the project still alive(!) I suggest that your research includes a little 'human' investigation too: Who at Nissan N.America came up with the idea? Who oversaw the project? Who decided to pull the financial plug and why? What were the project's objectives?

    If you can find the right people to speak to, the information you get will be arguably more valuable than the dribs and drabs that you will be starting to recieve right now - and it will be literally from the horse's mouth!

    I know this PM doesn't help you much but I want to wish you good luck and I'll watch developments with interest,

    Cheers,

    Hayden.
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    Good idea Halz. Of course it might be near impossible to get in contact with the people who were behind the program, but it would be great if someone could find them and they were willing to help. This is an excellent project Chris, I too will be watching from the sideline

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    Cool Classic Datsun

    I recieved a phone call from Les (Classic Datsun) last night, we discussed the Nissan restoration program to length. He is very forthright with information on the program. I requested that he gather any documentation on the program which he would be willing to share. Les is a very busy man but I am sure as time allows he will share some insightful information along with documentation on the program with us.

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    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    Les occaisonally posts on IZCC, maybe we can get him to post here. Is he presently a member?
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    Chris, You may find this ebay item interesting, if it's authentic:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...515211617&rd=1
    HLS3000588 1/70 build date

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    That appears to be the same checklist that is available on a site (I forget exactly where). I have it somewhere on my computer. I can't believe this guy is auctioning it on eBay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01
    That appears to be the same checklist that is available on a site (I forget exactly where). I have it somewhere on my computer. I can't believe this guy is auctioning it on eBay.
    A google search for "factory restoration checklist" turns up the following hit for a PDF file.

    http://www.jasonjarvis.com/main.html

    Download and print it out yourself and save the money for the eBay auction.
    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01
    Les occaisonally posts on IZCC, maybe we can get him to post here. Is he presently a member?
    I believe that if we were to put together a list of concise question on the subject Les would be more than willing to post on this site. I believe that it is important that we stay on course with documentation about the program along with direct players insight. Les did state that he did not want to get into negative aspects of the program which I'm sure is what Chris is refering to as the "sensitive issues".

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Z Restoration Program – the program name
    Vintage Z – title of the cars
    Z-Store – outlets that sold the Vintage Zs

    The collection of information is growing and a few points about this discussion are beginning to clear. The cast of characters is widening! I just want express special thanks to everyone who has written, phoned, and offered information and opinion. This is a controversial subject, there is a lot of information about the program, and I am pleased to announce that so far, no reference mentions the involvement of Goertz!

    Most of the information I now have, is published by Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A. and if I refer to Nissan or NMC, NMC NA, or NMC USA, I mean Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A and respect the copyright. The “Z Restoration Program”, “Vintage Z”, and Z-Store”, are copyrighted names as well. The documents I have been able to secure include:

    “Rebirth”; 1997
    “Greetings from the Z-Store at Nissan Corporate!”; No Date (late ’97, 25 cars produced).
    “Nissan Proudly Presents – “Vintage Z”; May 3, 1997
    “Vintage Z Quality Control Launch Rally”; May 3, 1997
    “News Coverage as of May 27, 1997”
    “Popular 240Z Restoration Parts”; 1998
    “240Z Restoration Program Quality Control Checklist”; January 8, 1997

    Let me begin by saying that it is quite obvious that the Z Restoration Program was a publicity / marketing focused effort. The bibliography I hoped to collect has now expanded to over 59 “news coverage” publications, 9 automotive magazine articles, and 25 television news programs with a combined estimated audience reach of over 84,252,000. By comparison, my bibliography of American automotive magazine publications – reviews and road tests – for the 240Z up to 1972 totals 19. The audience reach study was done on the 27th of May, just after the May 3rd unveiling. I think it is safe to say that Nissan did this for publicity and marketing reasons. Hoping to benefit from improved image and name recognition after slumped sales and the discontinuation of the 300ZX in 1996, Nissan Japan approved the Nissan USA proposal and a budget for the program was established.

    “Fortunately, the following for Z-cars is just as strong as ever. After the 25th anniversary celebrations in Atlanta, a representative from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z. President Hanawa and the staff in the USA were so impressed that a number of older examples were rebuilt with the backing of the factory and sold as new cars. This was an unprecedented turn of events for a major manufacturer”; Yutaka Katayama, “Fairlady Z Story” (translation), Long, Miki Press.

    “We hope this program has helped bring new life and new interest to all Z’s out there, and we anticipate that this program has increased the value of your own vehicle”.; Greetings from the Z-Store…1997

    “As you may recall, several of the first cars delivered were for special programs, such as a “press car” reserved for journalists…”; Greetings from the Z-Store…1997

    There are other references to how and why the program started. It seems the budget grew as demand and sales grew. It seems widely agreed that the program was beneficial, if not financially, for Nissan – calling on their successes of the past. It was not long after the program that the 350Z was announced.

    I am pleased to confirm that Vintage Zs were constructed at the following four facilities:
    Pierre Z Car Center; Hawthorne, California
    Classic Datsun Motorsports; Vista, California
    Old Car Service; Huntington Beach, California
    Datsun Alley; Signal Hill, California

    There is a lot to this story, guys. I can see why there is talk of writing books. This story is a journalists dream. ZCCA is heavily involved. Katayama spoke at the introductory event which included a car show and rally. I have a home video of the show, May 3, 1997 at Nissan National Headquarters, Gardena. There is a conversation about how the “Z-Store” was initiated. There is a conversation about how the program grew and about it’s demise; why ,when, by whom? A Vintage Z was sold at the 12th Annual Monterey Auction (Rick Cole) for $35,000. Vintage Zs were sold to Japan, London, and United Arab Emirates. There is a controversy about parts – what parts went on what cars – and authenticity of restoration. I have a definite opinion for an editorial, but I’m going to gather some more info for that thread. When the program ended, there were parts left over that went to private concerns. The restoration checklist document offers an insight to how the cars were restored and it appears as though Nissan kept records of the most popular replacement parts along with costs. A great many chapters, eh?

    Jerry, can’t wait to hear what Les had to say.
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  28. #28
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    Here is the Nissan published reprint from Road & Track's article on the Z Restoration Program. This must be the "journalist" car; one of the first completed. It was done by Pierre and includes a short biography of him;

    "An instantly likable, French-born former race mechanic, Perot headed the Renault racing effort in the early sixties, preparing an M63 Alpine prototype in 1963 for his close personal friend, Mark Donohue. More recently (for the past 21 years, to be exact), he has been racing, modifying, restoring and maintaining Z-cars out of his shop, Pierre' Z in Hawthorn, California."

    The date of the article has me a bit confused. My understanding was that the first cars were not completed before February and this article must have been prepared months prior. There was plenty of publicity though. The oldest reference I have is “Back to Its Rootz”; Automotive News, Mark Rechtin, October 28, 1996. Pierre recalls that Nissan approached him in October, 1996.

    You will notice a lot of modifications in the photographs. You will see custom mirrors and a stereo right off the bat. The article states that stock wheels and hubcaps were put on for the photographs (replacing slotted mags) and the custom air cleaner was replaced. I have long contended that many Vintage Z examples are not stock reproductions. I have been listening to a discussion about Nissan providing restoration services to private customer cars and I am aware that some pre-order Z-Store customers were able to provide their own spec. I am aware of those cars. Here is further proof.

    This material is copyrighted; Road & Track; "Datsun 240Z; Japan Reinvents the Sports Car", Douglas Kott, February 1997.
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  29. #29
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    I too am interested in where all this is going as I have proposed to SportZ magazine that they do a small "Where are they now" section with follow-ups to be published as info is recieved. For example, where are the 50 240Z pace cars?, how many g-noses made it to North America?, How many (insert for Black Pearl, 25th, etc.)? How many Z31 showroom racers were built and by whom? etc., etc., etc. I'm sure others can come up with a longer wish list. A book would be great. A series of magazine articles would be nice too.

    As to why none of the "F" restored 240s were on the list for Bob Sharps, I would have to say that by this time, Bob was not longer interested to get involved.

    I had heard that there were major problems with the engines that Nissan had rebuilt at their Texas facility and they had to be redone after deliver to the shops in CA. If true this and other issues along with a larger than expected list of "sub"-contractors pushed the cost up higher than budgeted. I'm sure available parts had some say in the number of "restored" cars that could be produced too.

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    Before I sit down and write some more, I need to correct my post with the Road & Track photographed car. What bothered me was the issue with the dates. I understood the first car was completed in February, months after when this article would have been written. But look closely at the glass and you will find no Vintage Z emblems. This is not the car that "Autoweek on Speedvision" used for their report, March 1997. I don't see this car in the videos of the Vintage Z Rally, May 3,1997. Although, I do see the "Autoweek" car at the rally. I think the yellow example is a "pre VZ" car. Sorry.
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    Hey John!

    You make a good point about the pace cars. I see that Beck has updated his article about the cars as well as pictures. Trying to track these cars down is a huge task. Then there is the privacy of the owner factor. For that matter, trying to track down the Vintage Zs is going to be a task. Did anyone save pictures of the eBay cars (two or three of them) from last May? One of them was an automatic and I would dearly like to see pictures - any pictures - of any of the cars. Come-on you guys! Dig out your archives!

    In the mean time, here are some of my photos of the console plaque and glass emblems.
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    Earlier Chris wrote:
    >....snipped....
    >I think it is safe to say that Nissan did this for publicity and marketing reasons. Hoping
    >to benefit from improved image and name recognition after slumped sales and the
    >discontinuation of the 300ZX in 1996, Nissan Japan approved the Nissan USA proposal
    >and a budget for the program was established.
    >....snipped....

    Hi Chris:
    Let's back up a bit... I think there's more to the story than that. Since you are after fine details I thought you might appreciate a bit broader background related to the foundation from which the Z Car Restoration Program sprang. As they say, nothing happens in a vacuum. The movement to save the Z Car started several years earlier... and it involved far more than just Nissan trying to generate some publicity.

    I believe that the Vintage Z's are the physical embodiment of a far more powerful concept... ie. "To Keep The Spirit Of The Z Car Alive."

    It's mid 1994 - Everyone in the Z Car Community is simply dumbfounded when Nissan informs us they have no plans to Celebrate the upcoming 25th Anniversary of the Z!!! (Z Sales are at an all time low by 95.. and they know the Z is dead. Nissan has just had its second or third year of heavy red ink as well .... so no marketing dollars for the Z Car..).

    It's late 1994 - at the Z Car Convention - Planing Meeting. The Georgia Z Club will play host for the upcoming 1995 Convention and the theme will be to "Celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the Z Car". The Convention is to be held in Atlanta July of 1995.

    Henry Costanzo, President of the Georgia Z Club suggests that Mr. Yutaka Katayama aka the "Father Of The Z Car", be personally invited to the 25th Anniversary Celebration and the group agrees! Upon checking with Johnnie Gable, who in turn checks with Mr. K... the Club is informed that if they invite Mr. K he will indeed be honored to attend. The formal Invitation is issued at once. (I think by now it was into 95).

    Someone (I can't remember the name, but I can see his face..da.....) in one of the local clubs comes up with the idea of holding a "Z Across America Relay", to promote local club participation and Publicity for the Convention. He organizes and runs the whole thing, and he talks Nissan into some sponsorship dollars as well.

    Beginning on May 13th, 1995 the 8000 mile - "Z Across America Relay" starts in Salt Lake City..and heads toward Philadelphia..then back Southwest to L.A. from there, heading back to Atlanta - to arrive at the National Z Car Convention on the 25th of July. (picture a map of the USA... and the route forms a large "Z" across the map).

    Once Nissan Motors USA got word that Mr. K. is returning to the USA for the Convention, they did a complete About-Face and jumped on the Band Wagon in as big a way as possible!!! They promise sponsorship dollars to the Georgia Club to help pay the costs of the convention (if they can participate!).. they jump on "the Z Across America Relay" when it's pitched to them.. and add $50,000 funding for contribution to charity...!!

    Keep in mind that Mr. K was ordered to retire by the Corporate Fathers in Japan when he reached mandatory retirement.. He returned to Japan, and entered retirement with very shabby treatment by Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan. (lots of his US customers never bought another DATSUN after that.. myself included). Since that time, he had not returned to the USA either.

    Nonetheless, when a former President of Nissan shows up at any Nissan facility.. he is expected to be treated with great respect and courtesy. Nissan USA knew they would be expected to do no less for Mr. K upon his return to the USA.

    Mr. K spent the entire week at the 1995 Z Car Convention... simply amazed at the number of Z's there, the number of pure stock and the number of modified Z's... that were in as new or better than new condition. He was stunned that so many of his American customers not only remembered him, but expressed such affection for him personally. The entire event was simply overwhelming for him... he was AMAZED!.

    When Mr. K returns to Japan he finds that the Japanese Press covered his historic return to the USA and the annual Z Car Convention!! He also informs Nissan HQ that contrary to the reports from Nissan Marketing in the USA - the Z Car is far from Dead. Indeed it is alive and well everywhere except at Nissan.

    At the Convention, Mike Taylor (aka Mike Mike), then President of Z Car Club Association, spends a great deal of time with Mr. K... keeping schedules, media interviews etc. and Mike had arranged for the History Channel to film a lot of their "History Of The Z Car" there as well.

    Mike formed a personal attachment to Mr. K and Mr. K got a kick out of Mike as well.. The 25th Anniversary Celebration as well as the Z Car Club Convention went off very well... and everyone left very happy.

    Now it's a few months later... and Mr.K's Birthday is coming up at the end of 1995... Mad Mike Taylor jumps a plane to Japan, to surprise Mr. K with a Birthday Visit!!! Mike stays for the week or so (as I recall).

    Mr. K makes arrangements for Mike and himself to visit Nissan HQ and while there Mike makes a plea for Nissan Motors Japan to stop crushing/trashing the very parts we needed to "restore" our older Z's (yes, Nissan was dumping old inventory to cut costs).

    Mr. K and Mike also try to make a case for the return of the Z Car to North America!!

    Now it's 1996 and annual Z Car Convention is held in Denver. Again Mr. K is happy to attend... at the end of the Convention he informs us that we can expect some significant changes at Nissan Motors Japan.. and that we should "keep the faith" and keep lobbying Nissan Motors Japan for a new Z Car. (many of our IZCC Members write letters to Mr. Hanawa asking for a new Z Car for the USA).

    Mr. Hanawa had taken over as President and CEO of Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan. The management chain that had opposed Mr. K for all these years.. the one that forced him to retire.. the one that changed the Brand Name from DATSUN to Nissan (to wipe out any hint of Katayama's huge success)... yep the good old boys were finally gone.. they simply lost too much money to ignore any longer!!!

    Mr. Hanawa, it turns out - was a long time friend/supporter/believer in Mr. K's marketing and management abilities; as well as his significant contributions to Nissan's Global success. He held Mr. K in much higher regard than was Politically Correct within the old guard.. Nonetheless Mr. Hanawa was now in charge.. and we begin to see things changing at HQ ... in a significant way!

    At that point you started to see the "Yellow Z Car with the G-Nose" and this little Happy looking Japanese Man showing up on your TV's... with his dog. "Remember Us - we were DATSUN"... "Keep The Spirit Alive"... "We Are Driven"... and the Superbowl's "Dream Garage"....

    During that time we heard that Nissan was indeed thinking about a new Z Car.. as well as a return to its roots. A lighter, less expensive Z... affordable again... (maybe as soon as 2001)....

    "The Z Car Restoration Program"...and "the Vintage Z's" were simply the next logical step (Brilliant As The Concept Was!!) - to keep a ball that was already rolling.. moving. Maybe even accelerate it a bit!!

    The idea of keeping the Spirit of the Z Car Alive - after the death of the last 300ZX didn't originate with Nissan Motors USA's marketing department. They simply jumped on an already moving band wagon.... with a great idea!

    The Spirit of the Z Car was kept alive in the hearts and minds of the Owners and in the person of Yutaka katayama. The Nissan Employees that came up with the concept... I believe were driven to a far greater extent by the idea of keeping the Spirit of the Z Car Alive, than by just a clever PR or Marketing scheme... (and they more than likely did sell it to management based on marketing and PR value).

    In terms of "Cause" and "Effect"... no question the Effect of the Vintage Z's was about marketing and PR... but the real "Cause" was driven by a desire to Keep The Sprit Of The Z Car Alive, at least long enough for its reincarnation.

    >“Fortunately, the following for Z-cars is just as strong as ever. After the 25th
    >anniversary celebrations in Atlanta, a representative from the American clubs was
    >sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z. President Hanawa and the staff in >the USA were so impressed that a number of older examples were rebuilt with the
    >backing of the factory and sold as new cars. This was an unprecedented turn of
    >events for a major manufacturer”; Yutaka Katayama, “Fairlady Z Story” (translation),
    >Long, Miki Press.

    Well, I guess that's a sort of two sentence summary of three years :-).. but it leaves a lot of the details out...!!!

    At any rate, I thought you might enjoy a little more about the background leading up to "the Vintage Z's" of ""the Z Car Restoration Program".... too bad we never got to see the restored later model Z's that were planned (the Classic Z Cars), nor the Customer Cars that were planned as a follow on...


    FWIW,
    Carl
    now I'll go digging for that name...Dave ????.. that started the Z Across America Relay..



    Carl Beck
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    WOW.


    I nominate Carl to write the book on this.

    How did they do the 'Z Across America?' Did they carry a torch or something? Maybe hand-off an old hood badge?
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    Thanks Carl.

    That is pretty much the picture that is going to emerge. What does a corporation do when they kill the very car that made them famous? Katayama appeared at the induction ceremonies for the final 300 ZX proclaiming the Z was not dead and pitching Nissan products. Does someone have copies of the correspondence - say the invitation sent to Katayama? There are people writing to me asking about such documents. There are people writing me asking for hard documentation to corroborate many of these events.

    Case in point....Most people will tell you that there were two or three shops involved in the Program. There were four. Nissan documentation includes a production figure for two of the shops at a certain date.

    Another point…The Z Restoration Program was a two-phased program initiated with the sale of later model cars. That issue was announced at the Vintage Z Rally / Picnic in 1997. The later model cars were already on sale. For a fact, at least one Vintage Z was completed on a customer specification basis. It went to an editor of Autoweek magazine equipped with an Eibach suspension kit, custom exhaust system, spook and spoiler, and other modifications.

    I love the recollections that I have been hearing, but who was "a representative from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z." Representing what American clubs? Where is the correspondence surrounding that? With whom did this person meet? You see, the story is a good one and as I dig into this a little, I am beginning to see where a lot of it originates. Some of it is based in fact. Some of it is a little off color. Actually, I started all this because of the off color F word. The F word is a press interpretation of Nissan marketing. It is taking me some time to sort through the facts. I just got fooled by Road & Track!

    Many thanks to MikeW, Bambikiller240, 2ManyZs, gnose, halz, JLPurcell and others who have written with suggestions, comments, and information. Thanks to you, Carl, for the information you gave me the other day. I still have plenty to write about. Information is still coming in. I am hoping for a most factual discussion of the project.

    Here is Dale Ishimoto (I am uncertain of the spelling) with Yutaka Katayama at the Vintage Z Rally and Picnic, May 3, 1997.
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    Hi TomoHawk:
    The Relay was divided into 25 legs as I recall, one for each year of the Z. It started with a 1970 240Z leading the local participants. A Treasure Chest/baton was carried in the lead car that contained the funds for charity. The treasure chest was passed from leg to leg.. from year to year of lead Z's until the end when a 1995 300XX lead the participants into Atlanta on the last leg. (you can see this last leg in the History Channels "History Of The Z Car" as I recall.. as they arrived in Atlanta).

    Participants were given a decal for their quarter windows.. I'll have to find mine, but I'm pretty sure they are the ones you see in all Vintage Z's. (circle with 25th Anniversary - silver and black)...

    Ah... my memory wakes up....
    Chris.. in the Yellow Brochure, from the Vintage Z Roll -out that you had... on the second from the last page there is a picture and write-up about the Z Across America Relay.

    In the picture of the Z's parked in a huge "Z" pattern, that's my Blue 72 in the middle of the top row.

    The brief write-up states: "The Relay was the brainchild of Dave Draper of San Diego's Z Car Club..

    OK... now I feel better... Dave Draper... Dave Draper...


    FWIW,
    Carl


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    Thanks! Here's the picture. Mindfull of the copyright - Nissan Motor Corporation.
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    Smile

    Chris wrote:
    >I love the recollections that I have been hearing, but who was "a representative
    >from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z."

    Hi Chris:
    You don't have to read my Posts.. but, gee... do you have to make it so obvious?*

    I answered that question in my earlier "recollections".

    1. It was Mike Taylor, the Executive Director of the ZCCA (I think I called him the President of ZCCA earlier..oops).

    2. He wasn't really "sent" there to plead with Nissan to revive the Z. He went there to make a surprise "house call" on Mr. K for his birthday. While there, a meeting with Nissan was arranged according to his trip report. (sent out to the Club Presidents and printed in the Z Cub of Texas's Newsletter).

    Be careful that you don't get totally wrapped around the axle by confusing "written documents" with "facts". The "fact" is that the meeting at Nissan HQ was a surprise addition to the trip according to Mike - he should know right? But the fact important to this discussion is that the meeting took place.

    >Representing what American clubs?

    At the time (Sept 1995), there were about 20 local clubs AIR, that were paying dues (or who promised to pay them) to the ZCCA. I'm pretty sure that they were included in the "Charter Members", but some Charter Members joined a little later. (as I recall all dues had to be paid in full by the 1997 Convention, in order to be included in the list of Charter Members).

    ARIZONA Z-CAR CLUB
    BLUE RIDGE Z CLUB
    BRAZOS VALLEY Z CAR CLUB
    BRITISH COLUMBIA Z REGISTRY
    CAROLINA Z CLUB
    DATSUN ZOOM CLUB [MONTREAL]
    GATEWAY Z CLUB INC
    GROUP Z
    MARYLAND Z CLUB
    OKLAHOMA Z CLUB
    SMOKY MOUNTAIN Z CAR CLUB
    THOUSAND ISLAND Z CAR CLUB
    TRIAD Z CLUB
    TRIANGLE Z CLUB
    WHITE ROSE Z & ZX CLUB
    Z CAR ASSOCIATION OF RICHMOND
    Z CAR CLUB OF COLORADO
    Z CAR CLUB OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA
    Z CLUB OF ALBUQUERQUE
    Z CLUB OF GEORGIA
    Z CLUB OF HOUSTON
    Z CLUB OF OHIO
    Z CLUB OF SAN DIEGO
    Z CLUB OF TEXAS
    Z SPORT
    ZOOM [Z CLUB OF MN]


    Nonetheless the ZCCA represented itself to Nissan as "representing all Z Car Clubs in North America".. members or not. (of course this was pure BS, you can't represent people that don't belong to your organization).

    >Where is the correspondence surrounding that?
    There was none that I know of, it wasn't arranged by correspondence but by a phone call

    >With whom did this person meet?

    Mr. Yoshikazu Hanawa, Executive Vice President, Nissan (he was E.VP in 95).

    >You see, the story is a good one and as I dig into
    >this a little, I am beginning to see where a lot of it originates. Some of it is based in fact.

    This is as it should be - right? You are trying to write a story.. not prove a case in court.*

    >Actually, I started all this because of the off color F word. The F word is a
    >press interpretation of Nissan marketing. It is taking me
    >some time to sort through the facts. I just got fooled by
    >Road & Track!

    Off color????? as in "F you" ?

    "The F word is a press interpretation of Nissan marketing."? If by "F" word you are talking about the use of the term.. "Factory" as in "Factory Restored". No - I don't think that is a press interpretation at all... that is a fact correctly reported by the Press.

    The FACT is, the Vintage Z's are FACTORY RESTORED (maybe REMANUFACTURED is better term) Classic 240-Z's.*

    Nissan Motors USA is as much "the Factory" in that context of the word... as Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan. As far as Nissan and their stockholders are concerned, they are both parts of the whole.

    The 240-Z's were built by a Nissan Motors subcontractor to begin with. The 240-Z's are Factory Cars...right? It's totally appropriate that when they are rebuilt at Nissan Motors direction and control... even if by different subcontractors, they are still "Factory" products. They aren't "Dealer Specials".. Nissan Motors funded the project, Nissan Motors sold the cars through their Authorized Dealers and Nissan Motors Warranted their product.

    We use the term "Factory Works Z Cars"... yet they were all "re-worked" in England before the competition events by yet a different subcontractor. Are they not Factory cars any longer?

    Silly semantics arguments aside, I think that if Nissan Motors calls them "Factory Restored" or refers to them as "a Factory Restoration Program" etc.... then they certainly have a perfect right to do so.


    >Here is Dale Ishimoto (I am uncertain of the spelling) with Yutaka Katayama
    >at the Vintage Z Rally and Picnic, May 3, 1997.

    While it has commonly been referred to as the "Vintage Z Rally and Picnic". To be more correct/precise - it was the picture taken at "The Vintage Z Roll Out" (or Vintage Z Press Roll Out).*

    An article could be written about the actual "Rally"... that traveled from Dealer to Dealer. The Caravan to the first Dealership from Nissan HQ (that made the National News). Another Article could be written about the Picnic... all in addition to the actual press roll-out of the Vintage Z's and the displays set up to show them off. OF course we talked about the CHPS's that showed up to escort Mr. K and the Z Caravan...

    When you are up here next, we'll see if we can dig out the pictures of the "Rally" which was just one of the events held that day. There was also a "Z Car Show" held in the main parking lot and a "Vintage Z Car Display" set up on the lawns. Nissan Motors USA hosted the Joint Group-Z / IZCC Picnic at their H.Q. that day as well. I might still have my notes somewhere, from the planning meetings held a few days before the Rollout.

    As I recall the lead car that day was a Silver 240-Z restored by PZ.. and I'm pretty sure it is the one that the Factory kept. It was on display at the International Auto Show in Dearborn when the 350Z was introduced.


    FWIW,
    Carl


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    Hey Carl,

    Just a quick reply to say that I have another long post worked up concerning the production process with a bunch of photos.

    Mike Taylor is one of four people with their hand in the air at the moment. And I haven't talked to half the people I really need to contact. You should see the information I'm finding. Right now, Mike Taylor has a 25% chance of being correct in my mind. I said in the begining post that this was a sensitive subject. Yea!!!

    As far as I can determine, "Factory" was never used by Nissan. Never. I can quote all kinds of Nissan people, including Katayama.

    The NMC U.S.A. invitation is entitled; "Vintage Z Quality Control Launch Rally" and the Logo for the event says; "Vintage Z Rally". Thanks for all that info, Carl. It is scheduled for another long write-up with bunches of pictures. The first car, silver '70, was there along with 3 other HLS30s and an S32. Katayama's famous yellow HLS30 was the lead car. Two of the Vintage Z HLS30s were automatics. I can now account for three automatics in the program.

    Oh! and Carl, we're planning a Z mecca day with honored guests 1/29. And I just registered for ZFest.
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    [QUOTE=Carl BeckAs I recall the lead car that day was a Silver 240-Z restored by PZ.. and I'm pretty sure it is the one that the Factory kept. It was on display at the International Auto Show in Dearborn when the 350Z was introduced.[/QUOTE]

    Hi Chris, Hi Carl!

    If I'm not mistaken, I believe this was the first Z produced for the program. This car sits at the Nissan North American headquarters in Gardena California.

    Vicky
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    Chris Wrote:
    >....
    >Mike Taylor is one of four people with their hand in the air at the moment.

    Hi Chris:
    Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You mean that three people other than Mike, claim to be the person in question?

    >And I haven't talked to half the people I really need to contact.

    >You should see the information I'm finding. Right now, Mike Taylor has
    >a 25% chance of being correct in my mind.

    Chris.. do you think, or are you being told that some other representative (other than Mike) was sent to Japan by the American Z Clubs? That would be interesting indeed.

    Or are you saying that my credibility is only 25% - or are you just trying to get me to dig more of this stuff out?

    OK - I Quote from Mad Mike's trip report.. Sept. 14th through 20th 1995, as published in the Z Club of Texas newsletter, of Oct. 1995. I think I still have the copy he sent to the Clubs somewhere as well.

    .... {Monday though Thursday snipped..cjb}...
    .......
    ......."Friday morning, complete with suite, jumped into a cab to meet with Kenji and Mr. K at Nissan headquarters for our prearranged conference with whomever. (ed. the meeting was arranged the Tuesday before..cjb)...I arrived early and was shown to a carefully appointed conference room. I became aware of someone else entering the serenity of the peaceful atmosphere when I heard.. "I am Hanawa". After introducing myself in Japanese {had a few days to practice}, we exchanged business cards. His card reads: Mr. Yoshikazu Hanawa, Executive Vice President. Namba-San's call resulted in a big surprise for me."

    Mr. K and Kenji joined us shorty and we discussed various aspects of the "Z" for roughly an hour. In short, Hanawa-San made some notes about our Z Car Club movement, was impressed with the pictures and discussion of the Z American Relay and stated that Nissan wanted to keep the Z as their flagship product if economically viable. We also discussed the problems of meeting EPA requirements, the changing value of the Yen and sports cars in general. Mr. K also stressed and I reinforced from my research within the ZCCA, the sentiment that Nissan should produce a simpler, more economical Z to attract more customers and increase market share. Hanawa-San left us by graciously stating he would pass along our comments and concerns to those within Nissan currently studying the "Z's" future. Regardless of what the future holds for our Z, we at least have had our "day in court"... thanks to Mr. K and Naba-San.

    ..... End Quote............

    "Naba-san" mentioned above is Yasuhara Nanba, class winner of the 1957 Australian Rally, former President and then current Counselor to NISMO. Mr. Nanba made the arrangements for the meeting at HQ the following friday.


    >I said in the begining post that this was a sensitive subject. Yea!!!

    I haven't seen anything "sensitive" so far... conflicted/confused for sure, but when you are dealing with people's perspectives of past events that's to be expected ... yes/no?

    I'll scan a few things I've found lately.. and send them to you.

    FWIW,
    Carl


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    Chris wrote earlier:
    >.........
    >Case in point....Most people will tell you that there were two or three
    >shops involved in the Program. There were four. Nissan documentation
    >includes a production figure for two of the shops at a certain date.
    >.........

    Hi Chris:
    Well Pete Evanow, Manager, Z-Store - told us on 30 Oct. 98, that the program was ending 31 Oct. 98. He stated that 18 body shops and 3 Restoration Business had done 40 cars by that point. He also said that Datsun Ally would finish the remaining cars and get them out to the Dealers within a few weeks.

    Looks like one of the planned restoration shops.... didn't materialize??? I wonder if that should have said 8 body shops... 18 sounds a bit high for 40 cars... but then given only a year to do them all.. maybe not.



    FWIW,
    Carl


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    Carl and group,

    When I started this thread, I received a few e-mails from people concerned that the conversation would turn into another "he said / she said" dispute and I pledged to "report" corroborated, documented information - hard evidence that I could point to and perhaps share. There is plenty of it around. I also pledge to retract anything that I "report" incorrectly or misinterpret. That happened a few posts ago. I am also very amenable to report all the “he said / she said” conversations I hear and suggest they be represented as such. I am still aggressively gathering information. I don’t think there is enough material to write a book about or that anyone would buy it, but there is definitely enough to write a long essay and as of this post, I announce my intentions to do so. I will be conducting this similarly to a “semester research project” that I’m sure many of you can relate to. Everyone who contributes gets credit and the final document will be available to everyone. As I write, I will post so that everyone can comment, contribute and encourage. I think that Vintage Zs represent a unique chapter in the history of a unique automobile and the story needs to be told accurately; however the chips may fall. It is a good reading story from the looks of it.

    Thanks for calling today, Carl. I will happily come and help you dig through your archives. I appreciate all the help you can offer. I don’t want you to think that I believe everything in print, either. Verbal recollections of events certainly help to reinforce what was written at the time. As we discussed over the phone, the letter makes no reference to buying up old cars, restoring them, and selling them again. However, it IS a critical piece of the story – no doubt.

    And that’s where this information is coming from. Old Z club newsletters, magazines, photographs and home movies. I’m currently waiting for a collection of photographs and a magazine article from Australia. I just received a collection from Atlanta. Another superb collection has been located in Washington. Several people actively involved in the Program have indicated their support. That’s how wonderful the response has been. I can’t thank everyone enough! I surely intend to do something worthy of all the help.

    Here are some pictures from home movies.
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    Last edited by 26th-Z; 01-05-2005 at 03:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    "The F word is a press interpretation of Nissan marketing."? If by "F" word you are talking about the use of the term.. "Factory" as in "Factory Restored". No - I don't think that is a press interpretation at all... that is a fact correctly reported by the Press.

    The FACT is, the Vintage Z's are FACTORY RESTORED (maybe REMANUFACTURED is better term) Classic 240-Z's.*

    Nissan Motors USA is as much "the Factory" in that context of the word... as Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan. As far as Nissan and their stockholders are concerned, they are both parts of the whole.
    Here we go again........
    Carl, I'm sorry but if you really think that the cars in question can truly be described as "Factory" restored - with all the inference of connection with the Factory that they were originally manufactured in - then you are living in another world to me.
    I think you know what is implied when the word "Factory" is connected with these cars, and there is no way in hell that it is appropriate. How can you say that Nissan Motors USA is "the Factory" in the true sense of that entity being the PLACE where the cars were put together when they were originally made? I think its just bending the truth to suit an agenda.
    If you want to carry this idea to its logical conclusion, then even Nissan's own spare parts supply operation in Japan becomes a "sub contractor" to Nissan. This is not the case is it? They are a wholly-owned subsidiary company that CANNOT be described in the same way that a true sub contractor should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    The 240-Z's were built by a Nissan Motors subcontractor to begin with. The 240-Z's are Factory Cars...right? It's totally appropriate that when they are rebuilt at Nissan Motors direction and control... even if by different subcontractors, they are still "Factory" products. They aren't "Dealer Specials".. Nissan Motors funded the project, Nissan Motors sold the cars through their Authorized Dealers and Nissan Motors Warranted their product.
    Once again you are demonstrating that you have never understood the dynamics and machinations of Nissan Japan. I've seen you describe Nissan Shatai as a "subcontractor" to Nissan before, and it tells me that you are misinterpreting their relationship.
    Nissan Shatai built - as in pressed, welded and finished - the bodies of the first-generation S30-series Z cars. Nissan Shatai ( was ) is a company owned by Nissan. Its part of the Nissan group of companies. If you want to call them a "subcontractor" in the same sense that companies such as Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Koito, Tokico, Kotobuki - and all the other myriad names associated with making parts for Nissan's first-gen Z cars were, then once again you are bending the facts to suit your agenda. You are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    We use the term "Factory Works Z Cars"... yet they were all "re-worked" in England before the competition events by yet a different subcontractor. Are they not Factory cars any longer?
    No comparison. I hope you really know what the function of Old Woking Service Station had in relation to the "Works" rally cars when you use it as an example for comparison ( I don't think you do )?
    The Works rally cars were built from the ground up in Japan, and Old Woking simply took them apart for normal rally-related servicing operations. If you think you can imply that Old Woking's activities "re-worked" those cars in the sense that they became responsible for their specification and modifications as Works rally cars, then you are once again demonstrating a skewed view of the facts. You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Silly semantics arguments aside, I think that if Nissan Motors calls them "Factory Restored" or refers to them as "a Factory Restoration Program" etc.... then they certainly have a perfect right to do so.
    Carl Beck
    Clearwater,FL USA
    http://ZHome.com
    I don't call it "silly semantics" when we are trying to straighten out the use of a word that implies a whole different situation to the truth. Why is the word "Factory" being used - as opposed to "company" or "manufacturer" or some other word? You know as well as I do that it links the cars back to the place where they were originally built, which is inappropriate in the true sense of the word in this particular case.

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    Well, Chris, you knew what you were getting yourself into when you started this. I understand where Carl is comming from but on the other hand I understand where Alan is comming from. Carl's points are based on American style marketing techniques where as Alan's points are based on reality. And when I hear the term 'Factory' that's is what I think of.....the place where the particular product was assembled. I won't contribute much to this thread because all I know is what I've heard. And what I've heard, I've heard here in America. But, at least for me, you guys are going to have a tough time rationalizing that term-Factory Restoration Program-be it 'silly semantics' or whatever.
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    Even though I am still collecting information, I stick to my guns.

    "As far as I can determine, "Factory" was never used by Nissan. Never. I can quote all kinds of Nissan people (edit: sources), including Katayama."

    As soon as I find any sort of NMC documentation that uses the word "factory", I'll let you know. Promise.
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    Sorry, Alan, Carl, Chris etc, but I can't help myself.

    Firstly, you wouldn't get away with this wording in Australia. It's just pure deception to call it that...

    Factory means just that, Factory.

    For it to be Factory restored it would need to be returned all the way back to Japan and restored in the Factory that it came from.

    Nissan, Datsun, Dealer restoration or reconditioned would be a more suitable wording.

    There are no silly silly semantics in this. The wording was very poorly selected, by who? Perhaps we will never know?

    Why not compromise and accept that the wording is mis-leading [whether intentional or not] and not enshrine this wording as our old mate Goertz was!
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    If you go back through our archives and read the debates about the Vintage Zs, you will see (1. Me making an idiot of myself) many questions about "aftermarket" parts, wheels primarily. Then there are a few comments about stereo systems, incorrect parts, milage...all kinds of questions about the cars' build. I have several pieces of information sources that are NOT included in this writing, and this topic will grow. I think it will separate into a body conversation, an assembly conversation and a parts discussion. There is no intention or implication on my part to debate the merits or faults of the restoration technique; rather focus on the reasons why certain things were done the way they were and what is common between the cars' build. Later, as the story unfolds, scheduling and delivery will play a role in this process and you will see how these cars fit the Nissan plan. I think you will see, as this story develops, method to the madness. Here is a blurb on method.


    …talk about how the Vintage Z cars were prepared. How were they restored? What techniques were used? What finishes? What do we see when we view these cars which may differ from the way they left the factory in 1970, ’71 and ’72? Nissan makes strong statements about how these cars were “improved”, “upgraded”. Nissan was selling brand new cars with 12 month / 12,000 mile warranties. There were Federal laws and liability issues to contend with. Requirements for vehicle emissions and passenger safety had changed. Although they were previously owned, previously registered, they were sold representing new cars. This is where the concept of equating brand new to refurbished and restored plays into marketing the cars. They had to be portrayed as brand new eliminating the question of worn out or how they were simply “repaired”. They had to be portrayed as restored to avoid the different legislation. To this extend, “restoration” took on a meaning of part replacement. “New restoration”. “Restored new”. This article deals with the official Nissan description of how the cars were prepared.

    Pierre Perrot estimated Nissan was able to provide between 75% and 80% of the parts replaced in an interview he gave at the Vintage Z Rally, May 3, 1996. At the time, approximately five cars had been completed. Later in the Z Restoration Program, trends and techniques become more evident. In order to replace all the parts, the car had to be completely taken apart. Certainly the old body shell had to be cleaned and repaired. Everything had to come off for the shell to be thoroughly treated. There is indication that they were primarily bead blasted.

    “Now that all the car’s components have been removed, the 240Zs body is taken apart as well. The hood, fenders, doors and liftgate are removed, and all panels are carefully stripped down to bare metal. Rotating platforms allow the technicians to check every nook and cranny of the panels. Craftsmen then go to work on the sheet metal until every inch of it meets their high standards, free of ripples, blemishes or dents”.

    To the best of my knowledge, all the Pierre prepared cars were undercoated. This may have been common to all the cars as a Nissan specification.

    “Next, the body and panels are painted an original factory color. This time, however, the paint process gives the chassis a far more lustrous and durable finish than was possible all those years ago. Just one example of how the Z Restoration Program uses today’s advanced technology to compliment the classic features of the Z”.

    In a later publication, Nissan comments on paint colors. Evidently, we find that the buyer had some input

    “…and we feel it is important to be able to provide specific paint choices and model years, as desired by our buyers.”

    New sound deadening material was installed as well as insulation. There is evidence that this material was hand cut to fit each car. “…while improved sound-deadening material has been added to help deliver a quieter ride”.

    Nissan indicates that new interior parts were made.

    “Presently, we are only able to offer the black interior, but we are looking into the possibility….”. And; “We have found a company that has developed tooling to manufacture new interior components, from the carpeting to sun visors, and we are very pleased with their work”. “Their designs are exactly like those found in an original Z, right down to the stitching patterns, but they are made with higher quality materials”.

    A tremendous amount of hardware was replaced.

    “”When available, genuine Nissan parts are used…Many ancillary components including the alternator, starter motor and fuel pump are replaced with new units or ones that have been remanufactured to our stringent standards”.

    The engines, transmissions, braking and steering systems were completely overhauled and “some things are automatically replaced”.

    “As always, if there is any doubt about whether a part should be replaced, we simply replace it”.

    Nissan literature talks briefly about updating some aspects of the 240Z. A 3-row radiator was used and the tire specification was updated. In an effort to provide more durability to suspension components they were powder coated “to factory colors” so as to “ensure that you will enjoy your 240Z’s performance for years to come”.

    An air-conditioning kit using an “updated” rotary-style compressor with U.S.-legal R-134A refrigerant was made available through Courtesy Nissan in Texas. There is indication that the air-conditioning kits were installed during restoration as well as later by the specific Z-Store dealer.

    Most all the rubber was available new including the hoses. Very early in the production, cloth braided radiator hoses dissappeared as did the brake vacumn hose. Both of those are commonly rubber. The top radiator hose displays a white arrow indicating the fit of the hose. Hose clamps are commonly the hex head type - zinc plated - and seem to be consistantly used throughout the engine bay.


    OK for the moment. Sentences and long word phrases in quotes are from some of my sources. Words I put in my own quotes to denote a certin flexibility in meaning. Here are the pictures to accompany the text.
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    Hi Chris

    Kudos on all your hard work and research on this unique project by Nissan. Ol' Yeller is a Pierre restoration. I must say that if the bodyman that did ZRush had all the resources that Pierre did, he could have produced the same (if not better) quality job. Pierre and the rest of the shops had time limits thus restricting much attention to "fine" details. I honestly think my husbands 77 is a better restored car and I'm not talking about mods. Then again they are two completely different cars but I've seen what went into the 77. Four years of blood, sweat, many tears and lots of money on a Z that was restored just five years prior by the previous owner.

    FWIW

    Vicky
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    the last ebay restored zed that sold for $27,000, the seller said it was #33 of 50.( only 44 were done from what i've learned on this site. correct me if i'm wrong)were all the restored zedz numbered and if so how was the order determined?also did every project zed have a console badge and quarter window sticker? last aug i was at a zed fest near toronto and one car owner claimed his was a restoration zed( only 27,000 original miles) that he bought at an auction in arizona.i only learned of the badge and sticker afterward so i wasn't looking for them. i got some pictures but they're not conclusive for or against.( i wanted to ask how much he paid but some people get offended by such questions ) maybe next year if i go back to the zed fest i'll try to look this zed up again to verify it,get better pics and vin #,just in case 26thZ want to locate and document these zedz.
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    At the moment, I am saying 40-odd because I really don't know how many were made! I hear rumors about uncompleted assembled cars and body shells in primer. I believe that body shells were sold off at the end of the program along with used parts and assembly equipment like these body dollie pictures.

    I think the red #33 car is coming to Florida and I hope to photograph it when it arrives. That will make three of them within an hours drive from me.

    I have seen Vintage Z decals on one quarter window, both quarter windows, and on the windshield. To the best of my knowledge, they all have a console plaque. It makes perfect sense. These cars were specially promoted and specially sold at special stores. The Z-Store program was ten dealers throughout the Southern United States.

    Yes zhead240! Send pictures!

    Hi Zrush! You bring up a good point. The guy who did Zrush probably would not have fit in the program. I'll get to discussing the economics of this program and the impact it had in the future. Carl brought up that he had heard eighteen different body shops were involved and I am not surprised. There is a lot of talk about what happened at the body shop level. Nissan envisioned producing 200 cars and focused their purchases in the Southern California area. Imagine the work load generated within a period of two years to Southern California body shops. The Nissan literature indicates that the chassis were completely stripped and the stuff I have from Pierre says bead blasted. This is demonstrating a lot of work in a short time frame. "Taxing the infrastructure" is how Zcar magazine put it in the Spring of 1997. Pierre indicates that he initially discussed doing one car a month with Nissan. Zcar reports Nissan anticipated 10 cars per month.
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  51. #51
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    Firstly, excellent info Chris, and presented well too. I really enjoy reading about these cars, even if I'll probably never see one!

    Vicky, what makes you say that? To me those cars look like they have been restored perfectly. Is there something specific you saw that was left out you feel should have been done? Any "fine details"? I'm not attacking you, just interested!!

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    Hi Chris (everyone):
    Re: the Representative Sent To Japan To Plead For The Z...

    This is what really happened....
    Read Mad Mikes Trip Report... it's good reading.

    100% certain....?

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Chris Wrote:
    >Carl brought up that he had heard eighteen different body shops
    >were involved and I am not surprised.

    Hi Chris:
    Just to be more correct... I said I had a letter from the Nissan Manager of the Z Store Program, in which he stated that 18 body shops and 3 restoration business had completed 40 cars as of the date of the letter....

    Text copied below FYI - and when you come up I'll gladly provide a copy of the original, along with the US Postal Date Stamp and Pete's finger prints.

    Note 1 that contrary to earlier reports... the fourth restoration shop did not pan out. Also note that Nissan clearly states that the parts and cars bought after the close of program... are not Nissan products...

    Note 2 -- also that Pete states the last remaining cars that were to be shipped to the Z Stores would be finished and shipped shortly... thus more than 40.. and the real total according to other Nissan sources was 42.

    Note 3 -- Pete is no longer with Nissan, and his phone and e-mail address are no longer vaild. (it was 1998 after all)

    Keep The Spirit Alive...
    Carl

    = = =
    Nissan Motor Corp., U.S.A.
    30 October 1998


    TO OUR Z-CLUB MEMBERS:

    As you well know, Nissan Motor Corporation USA created the Z-Store as part of a unique program to keep the spirit of the Z car alive after retiring the 300ZX. As of the 3 1'' of October, 1998, the official program will be discontinued.

    The restoration of Vintage Zs involved more than 18 different body shops and three restoration businesses, and the quality restoration process was backed by Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A. Through the program, some 40 cars have been restored, with one donated for a charity auction organized by Rick Cole. Others have been sold to Z enthusiasts across the U.S., as well as buyers from around the world.

    I strongly believe the program satisfied a niche demand, and generated positive publicity for Nissan. Additionally, our efforts to bring new life to these wonderful cars has kept the "Z"spirit alive and just as importantly, helped bridge the "gap" between the discontinuation of the 300ZX and the development of a new generation sports car, now possibly a new Z. I hope the cars we were able to deliver to our participating Z-Stores helped generate floor traffic, customer interest and profits from the cars' sales. I also know that parts sales for Nissan, and obviously from the many Z-related aftermarket companies increased based on the recognition of owners of the value of 2402 ownership, as many people be,oan restoring or improving their personal vehicles.

    While Nissan p]ans no official announcement about the discontinuation of the Z-Store, our Public Relations Department has prepared the following statement:

    "With the rich heritage the Z car has generated over the years, Nissan wanted to maintain a high level of interest in the Z after the discontinuation of the 300ZX. The Z restoration program heiped us to do that, and it satisfied a special demand for these cars. We're now looking fonvard to what we are hoping will be a new Z. We showed a concept car this summer which was aimed at recapturing the spirit of the original Z, and we'll be unveiling a version of this concept at the January Detroit auto show which we hope will be a further definition of a true, pure sports car."

    Nissan will now focus its attention on the development of the Concept Z, which may very well open a new chapter ofthe company's continuing interest in performance cars. In the meantime, all of us at Nissan take pride in what we have accomplished with the Z-Store and in the cars we have restored. I think it is a!so safe to say that those people fortunate enough to have purchased one of our restored Z's have a very rare vehicle indeed. The warranties originally set for those cars remain in place, and owners will continue to be served by Nissan¥s Claims Cenrer.

    The remaining cars are being completed by Datsun Alley of Signal Hill, CA, and wiil be delivered to our participating dealers across the country within the next 10 days to two weeks. Datsun Alley will be continuing the restoration process on its own and will be offering completely restored 240Zs to customers. These will not be Nissan-authorized cars nor will they come with a 12,000-mile/l 2-month warranty. Datsun Alley, however, will stand behind its work, and assist any buyers ofthese cars with any warranty-related problems. Marc Jones of Datsun Alley can be reached at 562-988-0009.

    Let me just conclude this letter by saying it was a privilege to represent Nissan through the Z-Store, and I have greatly appreciated your interest and support ofthis program. On a personal note, I have been asked by Robert Bentley Publishers, a company noted for its automotive heritage books, to write a book on the Z, including a section on the Z-Store and the Z's legions of fans. If you have anything interesting that you would like to pass on to me for inclusion, please e-mail me at , or send it to my attention at P.O. Box 3052, Orange, CA 92857.

    I look fonvard to seeing many of you at the next National Z Car Convention, and thank you for helping to keep the Z alive and for sharing in the company's great heritage.
    Cordially,

    Pete Evanow
    Manager, Z-Store

    - - -- - - 30 - - -

  54. #54
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    Default Perspective on History

    Based on the number of views this topic has generated (over 1,600) I'd say there a strong case for a serious presentation of the 240Z restoration effort. I believe a few minutes of thought should go into how this might get to the marketplace and in what form.

    Given the number of people who buy Z related objects, books, t-shirts, mugs, etc. there is at the least a limited batch (less than 5,000 copies), niche publishing house book in all this.

    If not that, a long article for C&D, R&T, etc. The problem I see with this approach is that the subject calls out for detail and magazines don't do detail. Perhaps an early installment piece could be floated to any number of car magazines.

    As a history teacher turned to the dark side (civil/criminal inspector), I know many of the frustrations and dead-ends that a trip like this will take you on.
    There will be different understandings of what occured and when, with who and who did what to whom. There will be gaps and selective memory events. More than one person will claim to have done something. Archive articles and materials will point to conflicts and confusion instead of answers. I say this in support of your collective efforts and because I sense that the Z community is beginning to take notice. So while there are but a few people posting there could be well over 2,000 views before the month of January ends.

    And if you find getting information from a few years ago hard, imagine trying to get it from people extremely reluctant to do so (can you say, prison time?) or better yet, try getting the facts straight on a event that happened 500 years ago. I look forward to each new added piece of the puzzle. As the Brit's would say, 'it's early days yet"....
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    Default "Factory" is out..

    I've tried to keep up with the dialogue in this thread. It seems to me that the "Factory Restored Zs" should more accurately be termed "Nissan Motor Corporation USA - supported restoration program". I'm not sure if Nissan actually does manufacture vehicles in a factory in the USA - they certainly didn't make the Z-series there - so we can safely say that none of the 40-odd cars so restored ever saw the inside of a Nissan factory after they left Japan in the late '60s/early '70s.

    Despite the documented visits to Japan by US Z-car club members, I see no evidence that Nissan in Japan supported the restoration program in any way. Their contribution may have perhaps been a benevolent smile at the efforts of their US distribution partners...
    Last edited by halz; 01-06-2005 at 09:09 PM.
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    halz wrote:
    ...snipped..
    >Despite the documented visits to Japan by US Z-car club members,
    >I see no evidence that Nissan in Japan supported the restoration program
    >in any way. Their contribution may have perhaps been a benevolent smile
    >at the efforts of their US distribution partners...

    Hi halz (everyone):
    "....a benevolent smile at the efforts of their US distribution partners"

    No offense meant halz, but I have to admit that is one of the funniest things I've read lately. It made me laugh out loud... from all my conversations with Nissan USA employees, the word "benevolent" would never have entered my mind, as it relates to the absolute control of Nissan Motors USA by the home offices. What little independence Nissan USA had, left the country along with Mr. K in 1977.

    For "evidence... I think we read somewhere that Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan approved the budget for the project originally and re-tooled for production of some of the parts needed. I believe that the list of "Restoration Parts" issued by Nissan was the result... some of them were however reproduced here in the US AIR.

    BTW - Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan hasn't had "a distribution partner" here in the US since they bought out their last distributors around 1965.


    kind regards,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadog
    Firstly, excellent info Chris, and presented well too. I really enjoy reading about these cars, even if I'll probably never see one!

    Vicky, what makes you say that? To me those cars look like they have been restored perfectly. Is there something specific you saw that was left out you feel should have been done? Any "fine details"? I'm not attacking you, just interested!!
    Hi Alfa

    You know why I can say that is because I have one and I can compare it to the 77 that was restored. The Vintage Z is a beautiful car and a fine restoration. We bought the car right off the Z Store showroom floor in 2000. I wanted the car and even a few flaws were not going to keep me from having this unique piece of history.

    We had to have the rear bumper rechromed. A section was what my husband calls "burnt". I lost points at an AACA show for this. The rubber seal under the drivers door was missing. The drivers door was also missing a door bumper. Of course, these items could have come off during shipping but still. The diamond pattern vinyl over the strut towers has a tiny spot where they cut the material to short. We had the hubcaps repainted due to some scratches. Now most people wouldn't even see this without really looking directly at it. This is what I meant by "fine details". It's really no big deal. I must be a perfectionist when it comes to the car because we take it to high end shows like AACA throughout Florida.

    All these minor flaws were corrected for a few dollars and I even got the Z Store to reduce the price because of the rear bumper.

    Of course I'm speaking of my car, not all that were produced for the program. Some could have no flaws and some could have more.

    Ol' Yeller is close to perfection now

    FWIW

    Vicky
    Zweet

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    halz wrote:
    >I've tried to keep up with the dialogue in this thread. It seems to me that
    >the "Factory Restored Zs" should more accurately be termed "Nissan Motor >Corporation USA - supported restoration program".

    Hi halz:
    That might be more accurate.. and I'd say that if that's what you want to call them that, I'm sure we'll all understand what cars you are talking about. You might shorten that to "Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars", or shorter still "Nissan Vintage Z's"...

    Wait a minute... no, on second thought, if we call them "Nissan Vintage Z's" or "Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars"... that might be misleading. Someone would think that Nissan Motors owns them.

    "Nissan Motor Corporation USA - supported restoration program" might be misleading too. In most places Nissan seems to have called them "reconditioned".... they weren't really restored (meaning to make as original again).

    >I'm not sure if Nissan actually does manufacture vehicles in a factory in the
    >USA.

    Now you can be sure. Nissan has several factories that produce cars and trucks here. They just built a multi Billion Dollar assembly facility for their full size trucks and SUV's here as well. As I recall the build the Altma's here, and some production was exported to Japan.

    >- they certainly didn't make the Z-series there

    That's for sure... of course "they" ("they" being your reference to Nissan Motors Ltd.) didn't make them in Japan either.

    Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, didn't actually build the car in the first place. Nissan Motors Ltd. did the design, the engineering, the distribution, sales and marketing... but they did not produce the car. The Z's were produced by a subcontractor.

    Shin Nikkoku Kogyo Co., Ltd was started in 1949 to build rail road cars AIR. It formed an alliance with Nissan Motors Ltd. in 1951, it became a publicly traded corporation in 1961. The company name was changed to Nissan Shatai Koki Co., Ltd in 1962. It began production of the Z Car in Oct. 1969. The company name was changed again in 1971 to Nissan Shatai Co., Ltd. It is a publicly held corporation, not a wholly owned subsidiary of Nissan Motors Ltd. (as Nissan Motors USA is).

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    I think the red #33 car is coming to Florida and I hope to photograph it when it arrives. That will make three of them within an hours drive from me.
    Hi Chris

    Pierre told me that our 1972 240Z was #31 when I verified the vin and color with him prior to my purchase in 2000. I'm going to look at the Vintage Z Registration paperwork I have at home tonite and I'll get back to you.

    Vicky
    Zweet

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    Default Restoration

    If not Nissan factory restorations then why not "Nissan sponsored restorations"?

    Everything I've seen so far points to the vehicles being done with the complete knowledge and support of Nissan. Are they factory cars? Not in my opinion. Had they be shipped back to Japan for the restoration work then I could see a reason to call them "factory" restorations.

    The restoration resulted in vehicles that were better then originally produced with a level of detail and some upgrades not provided in the early '70s.
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    Thanks for the info, Carl. I'll post the entire "Greetings from the Z-Store at Nissan Corporate" so that everyone can see that I am not making things up.

    Thanks for the "Mad Mike" letter. Would you please highlight the passages that refer to a discussion about buying up old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back to the public again? I just can't find it. Sounds like he had a good time though. So let me get this straight. He "threatened to make house calls" and that constitutes representation?

    Yes I AM 25% sure Mike had something to do with it. Take a look at "Z-Store Update" from Z Car Magazine, Spring 1997; page 8. "The Z Store idea began when a handful of Nissan dealers got together with the president of Nissan Motor Corp. USA to discuss the the discontinuation of the 300ZX. All of these guys have been strong supporters (and sellers) of the Z-car over the years and all of them believe that the Z market is still alive". (typos included on purpose)

    And thanks for the letter from Pete Evanow. From now on, I will use the correct terminology, some 40, when discussing how many cars were actually produced. At least until I find the real documentation.

    Halz, the correct terminology is Z Restoration Program. Vintage Zs are the cars and they were sold through the Z-Store program. Katayama used the abbreviation "VZ" and I suggest it be adopted in place of the word factory.

    gnose, I'm pretty much up to what you are describing. Your past suggestions and comments well taken.

    And finally...Carl, if I am stepping on toes, just tell me and I'll sit down and shut up. Is Pete going to write a book, or was that just more talk? It has been six years. Otherwise, I am not into writing adversarial posts claiming my story is right and your story is wrong. I am into reporting without bias the facts as they can be reconstructed from written documentation and reflected with personal recollection. I really apprecaite your help. You have a wealth of information and I plan to spend more time with you sifting through your archives. For my plans, I anticipate conducting research for a certain period of time and then writing about what I found from whom. It will not be all-encompassing, but it will be a concerted effort capturing a moment in time as is typical of a research project.
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    Hi Chris: Today at 7:13AM you wrote:
    >.."Thanks for the "Mad Mike" letter. Would you please highlight the passages that
    >refer to a discussion about buying up old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back
    >to the public again? I just can't find it.

    >Sounds like he had a good time though. So let me get this straight. He "threatened
    >to make house calls" and that constitutes representation?"

    Truth is stranger than fiction...

    I'd say that when the opportunity came about...Mike went to Nissan HQ and represented the ZCCA in the discussions with Mr. Hanawa. Although not planed far in advance, although not as formally structured as Mr. K's quote would indicate... I'd say yes.. what Mad Mike did on that day constitutes representation (at least of the people that elected him Executive Director of the ZCCA).

    The Mad Mike involvement was first brought up - because you quoted Mr. K saying
    "a representative from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z"...

    At that point there was nothing said about the Vintage Z Program... other than highlighting the events that took place prior to 97, and which lead up to the Programs Birth... Mr. K's full statement ties the "representation" directly to the events that lead up to the Vintage Z Program - does it not?

    My point was - related to Mr. K's statement and your questions about that statement... 1. Mike wasn't actually "sent" there as his trip report reflects... 2. who he represented.. when the chance arose ie. ZCCA and its members and 3. Who he met with when he was there.. (the man who would the following year become President of Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan).

    Chris wrote again today:
    >"Yes I AM 25% sure Mike had something to do with it."

    I have to admit that I'm very confused by that statement at this time.

    What/which ""it" you are referring to? There is no question that Mike and his visit to Mr. K in Japan in 95... is the person and the event that Mr. K is talking about in that quote. Yes/No.. or as I ask before, is there someone else that says differently?

    If you are referring to "it" being the Vintage Z Project... I have no idea what all, if anything, Mad Mike had to do directly with the Vintage Z Project. Other than, like all of us at the time, indirectly just trying to support the concept and the program while it was evolving at Nissan...

    Chris wrote:
    >"And finally...Carl, if I am stepping on toes, just tell me and I'll sit down and shut up.
    >Is Pete going to write a book, or was that just more talk? It has been six years."

    Well as you can see from his farewell letter.. he seems to have been planning on writing a book then; and from the letter he wrote me the other day.. which I read to you.. he seems to be in the process of writing his book now.

    I told him that you were putting together an article about the Vintage Z's and ask him if he'd be willing to share some information with us, I have not received his reply yet. I don't see your efforts as stepping on anyone's toes. If anything articles related to the subject, should just stimulate interest and help future sales of his book... yes/no?

    Other than discussions like this one... where else do we see anything being published that would lead to more interest?

    >Otherwise, I am not into writing adversarial posts claiming my story is right
    >and your story is wrong.

    Does "my story" mean Chris and "your story" mean Carl? Or is that a general statement?

    I don't feel anything has been "adversarial".... we have been back and forth on a couple of points... like the Mad Mike thing... but I wonder at times if I have made my points clear enough; because when you reiterate them in your own words... it leaves me with the impression that there is still great confusion there...

    Your statement today,
    >"please highlight the passages that refer to a discussion about buying up
    >old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back to the public again?
    >I just can't find it.

    leaves me with the impression that there is still confusion between background information, which Mr. K tied to the Vintage Z Program, with his statement (which you quoted).. with the expectation that it is meant to be proof of the conception point of the Vintage Z Project....

    Just wanted to make sure that you understood - and that everyone following along understood - no one ever said that the representative talking to Mr. Hanawa, suggested anything other than saving the Z for America and Nissan Motors. That started the ball rolling or at least accelerated it a bit after Atlanta.

    Buying up cars came a couple of years later...so I am surprised that you would be looking for it in Mikes report, or that you think I said it would be there... nonetheless, the Vintage Z might not have happened at all, if the groundwork hadn't been done years before hand.

    I think we both agree that the story leading up to the concept of the Vintage Z's is as important to understanding their significants, as the story of how they were repurchased, reconditioned and resold...



    FWIW
    Carl

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    Hello Chris (everyone):
    Per an earlier discussion related to collecting the VIN's of the Vintage Z's. I've set up a Vintage Z Register on the Z Car Home Page...

    I have listed the VIN's I've collected so far, if anyone knows of others not listed there... please send as much information as you can. Or if you have additional information about the cars listed please send that as well.

    With "usual" Registers, it is the owners that register their cars. As we are just trying to get this started, and gather as many of the VIN's as possible, we will start by "reporting" Vintage Z's we have seen either in person or on the net.

    So far, I only know two of the owners... the rest are VIN's from cars listed on ebay with pictures of their dash plaques or other documentation. In each case I've listed the source of the information.

    If it's useful, at a later time - I may link the VINs to the ebay listings so people can see the descriptions that the owners/sellers provided. If anyone has kept a copy of the ebay page source.. to retain that information about a car you have recorded.. send it along with the other information and we'll add it to the database.

    The direct URL Is: http://Zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/VintageZ.htm

    At least this way we can all see what we have collected to this point.

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Default Automatic Transmission Vintage Z's

    Hi Chris (everyone):
    Just wanted to point out... as you mentioned earlier.. at least some of the Vintage Z's did not get their original matching number engines back. Note on the Register at least one of them got an L28. (now that's an upgrade!!).

    Also .. are those the VIN's with Automatic Transmissions that you have as well? Could be A/T equipped cars were less expensive to buy, when Nissan was buying them... or it could be that in general terms the 240Z's with A/T were driven and cared for more carefully.

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    OMG, which one do I reply to first? How about your setting up the VZCR? Wow! Way cool! 'Bout time!!!! At-a-Boy!!! Saved me a whole bunch of work - thanks seriously thanks.
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    I think this is the green automatic which would put it low on the 0 - some40 list. This is an ABC channel 7 interview with Pierre on May 3, 1997 at the Vintage Z Rally. The Z is an automatic. Another automatic at the Rally was this gold one. It sold on eBay about 9 months ago. Remember Carl? I sent you an e-mail saying we thought there was only one A/T car? Before you respond that it is Jim's, I don't think so. Jim's has a distinguishing mark that is not on this car as far as I can tell.
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    Sorry about the picture quality, everyone. This is the best I can do with what I have. I anticipate improvement.

    Carl,

    Lets post the quotes so everyone knows what we are talking about. These are copyright "Fairlady Z Story" (translation, Brian Long) Miki Press.

    In terms of "roots", the first quote eludes to the importance of the 25th National Convention in Atlanta. The second quote eludes to the importance of what now probably was Mike Taylor's visit. I can easily understand how the event would be described by Katayama san as such. The importance of these two events cannot be overlooked, however interpreted. They represent the ground swell of enthusiast response to Nissan's announcement of terminating the Z. They represent the involvement of Yutaka Katayama after his retirement, suggesting his influence in what was then future planning of the Z car.

    Thanks for that l o n g post. I think we are on the same page. Thanks ( wow, serious thanks, WAY TO GO) for creating the VZCR. I'll help you fill in some spots.
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    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    This topic is averaging over 100 views a day. Not to mention that the replies are emailed to the subscribers automatically as they post.

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    That's what I heard, Tomohawk. I hope everyone is enjoying this as much as I am. Special greetings to 240 in OZ!

    Here are some of the cars that are listed on the VZ car register Carl set up.

    Enjoy
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    Last edited by 26th-Z; 01-08-2005 at 02:20 AM.
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  70. #70
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    Post Revised: Something to Add to the Collection

    Sorry about that, Tomohawk, I was able to read it when I posted it. Anyway, here's that article again, after I scanned it and used some OCR software on it to convert the jpeg to text.

    ______________________________________________

    Restored Datsun 240Zs take step back in time

    NEWSDAY
    Sunday, November 23, 1997

    Vintage cars are almost always more fun to look at than to drive — no matter how well they were regarded in their day. They are object lessons in how much cars have improved over the years. And so it is with the aged cars around which Nissan has this year built one of the most unusual corporate identity campaigns: 1970 through 1972 Datsun 240Zs. They were Nissan's first sports cars, and they were a big hit for their swoopy looks and hot performance. This car was one of an openended number, about 150 so far, that Nissan, maker of Datsuns, is purchasing from private individuals and having restored by a company in Los Angeles called Pierre's Z. The restored cars, which began at about $3,500 new in the early '70s, are being sold for $27,000 plus freight through only 10 Nissan dealerships. The warranty is 12 months, 12,000 miles.

    The restoration involves a complete disassembly of the car and the repair of any part requiring it. Steering columns are replaced with more modern, energy-absorbing types for safety. Tires are replaced with modern radials — Bridgestone 195 70R-14s on the tester — wider than the originals. Each car gets a full-flow oil filter, three-core radiator and a clearcoat paint job — gray and beautiful in the case of the tester. Each interior gets full reupholstery and an- AM-FM radio, a pushbutton period piece that drifts off whatever FM station you try to listen to. For good and bad, everything else is original the thin, wood-trimmed steering wheel, two low-slung bucket seats, the view over a long, long, hood, great visibility through big rear and side windows and the pulling power of a high-torque, six-cylinder. Yes, and the seat belts that don't retract via springs into a case to keep them clean and handy and, so, tend to get caught in the doors or fall between the seats; the controls you can't see at night; the poorly backlit gauges and the nonpower-assisted steering that requires two strong arms in parking maneuvers. Even the odometers are left in their original positions. The restored 240 is an unusual effort by a car maker to keep alive a name that still carries a lot of goodwill. Considering the lack of air bags and other modern crash protection except for the aforementioned steering column and seat belts we kinda wonder how this one got past Nissan's corporate lawyers. But we're glad it did. We're not sure we could ever bring ourselves to spend $27,000 for a toy like this, but it surely was fun for five days to trip backward 26 years in automotive time. It also was a reminder of what a shame it is that the Z car isn't available here anymore. With sales declining, Nissan stopped importing the current model, the 300ZX, after 1996.
    Last edited by DatsunZGuy; 01-08-2005 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Could not read from image.
    Ed
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    _____________________________________________
    Kids in the back seat cause accidents. Accidents in the back seat cause kids. Stick to a two seater.

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    Hmmmm...

    Datsun 240Zs take a "step BACK in time?" I couldn't read the text in the picture, so would you mind telling us what the point of the article was?

    thx

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    Hi Chris / everyone:
    I have updated the Vintage Z Register...
    There is a hyper-link to pictures of each car on the Register now.
    There is a list of the Original Z-Car Stores also hyper-linked
    The Vintage Z Register Is Now linked on the Z Car Home Page http://ZHome.com

    The Direct URL Is:
    http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/Vintage/VintageZ.htm

    We are now looking for input of Vintage Z's not on the Register... if you know of one, e-mail me the information at: beck@becksystems.com

    I'll also be Posting a note to the "big list", to see if we can reach more Vintage Z Owners.


    FWIW,
    Carl


    Carl Beck
    Clearwater,FL USA
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    Thanks DatsunZGuy! The article actually conveys some nice information for me. For instance, reference has been made to the first few cars completed dedicated as "press" cars - examples to be reviewed and test driven by the automotive press for publicity purposes. This article discusses a "gray" colored car (probably silver) and some of the other press photos I have depict a 920 gold car. Interesting.

    So I go back to mperdue's paint color site http://datsunprojects.org/zpaintcodes/ to confirm the color number and look what I find! Check out he Vintage Z sticker in the quarter window. This was taken in Richardson, Texas according to Mike. Thanks Mike.

    The article was completed later in the program (November 1997) and indicates a number of cars dedicated to the program at 150. This number may have been the number of cars Nissan actually bought. Interesting. The article is not the most complimentary description and it is a good example of the different thoughts we are going to see about the program. There were and are today many different conversations about the cars and the program.

    Many thanks for your contribution.
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    Chris wrote:
    >...snipped....... "This number may have been the number of cars
    Nissan actually bought."

    Hi Chris (everyone):
    Having been in direct communications with with the buyer for the Vintage Z Program, while he was buying... I can tell you with certainty that he was finding it all but impossible to buy more than around 45 cars, for the $3,500.00 budgeted. I did send him leads as they came in and I did try to get him to buy HLS30 000240 for the "charity" car ... Nissan didn't want to spend the $8,500.00 that the owner wanted for that car.

    I'd guess that the number of 150 was based on indicated demand. The initial price that Nissan put on the cars was around $23,995.00. At that price point there was a pretty quick and strong interest from buyers.

    FWIW
    Carl

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    Thumbs up Les Cannaday (classic Datsun)

    I just recieved an email from Les Cannaday (Classic Datsun). He has been following this thread. He said Carl has been sharing some really good information. He said he would be posting some information soon. JLP
    Jerry Purcell
    1970 HLS30 00029 Owner since 1976 Now owned by Les Canaday (Classic Datsun Motorsports)
    1972 HLS30 93606 IZCC Registion #105 Original owner back home after full restoration by Classic Datsun Motorsports

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    A brief update before I post some more this weekend...

    The research is going well and several contributors have sent me great stuff. Thanks to MikeW, 240 in OZ, and HS30-H. The working bibliography has now grown to twelve Nissan documents and twenty-six independent magazine and newsletter articles including three from Japan and one from Australia. There are notes from several telephone conversations as well. Quite a bit of information to sort through!

    Stay tuned. I'll be writing more shortly.
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    Default Vintage Z Quality Control Launch Rally

    Have you caught the latest buzzword from the collector car / auction crowd? “resto-mod”. Flip over to Jerry Purcell’s thread; “Your Thoughts Wanted; Preservation / Restoration”. “Resto-mod” is a term that can be applied here as well. One of the reasons I took on this subject has something to do with a statement I made earlier in this thread having to do with Vintage Zs being a benchmark restoration. I’m sticking to that statement and find the “resto-mod” expression an interesting word in the context of Vintage Zs.

    But lets talk about the Vintage Z Launch Rally held at Nissan USA corporate headquarters in Carson, California, May 3, 1997. The Vintage Z Quality Control Launch Rally was the introduction party and publicity “kickoff” for the Z Restoration Program and introduced the Z-Store and the Vintage Zs. It was a picnic, an exhibition, a car show and a rally / parade through the streets of Los Angeles.

    Nissan had decided to approach their future with the past. The 300Zx had been discontinued in 1996 and Nissan was without a sports car flagship that they were so famous for. The Z car had come from an affordable sports car that delivered incredible performance to an expensive luxurious super car. It had transcended its original market niche and with buyer focus shifting to minivans and SUVs, the Z lost popular buying potential through both price and market niche. Yet there was a ground swell of Z enthusiast support and outcry of despair for the loss of the most popular and fastest selling sports car of all time. Nissan marketing reacted and saw an opportunity; “With the End of an Era Comes the Birth of a Legend”. The legendary 240Z was to return.

    The Z Store program was announced on November 20, 1996; “…an innovative marketing program…to demonstrate our heritage and prove our commitment to the consumer by offering reconditioned Z-cars – a model line that is legendary in the automotive world”. “We are really excited about this program because it allows us to offer consumers what they are requesting in an imaginative new way”. “With Z-car production for the United States recently drawing to a close, Nissan is answering the call from enthusiasts and Z-car aficionados. We are proud of our roots and are demonstrating this through our Z Store program.” “Throughout the lifetime of the Z car, we witnessed a strong commitment to the car from enthusiasts and ‘Z-Zealots’ because of its illustrious style and performance. We are proud that we can continue this commitment”.*

    Initially the event was anticipated for an earlier date (late 1996 or early 1997), but delays in completing Vintage Zs and orchestrating the event with local Z clubs pushed the activities to May. As the planning progressed the event schedule grew larger, causing further difficulties and coordination. One magazine article sites the large turnout at the Motorsport Auto event a few weeks earlier as influencing plans to be expanded. Finally, in early spring, the commitment was made and invitations were sent out. “This is your invitation to be part of automotive history and witness the rebirth of the Z”. A full day of activities was planned. Beginning with registration at 8:30 in the morning, the entertainment lasted until 6:00 in the afternoon. The registration form was comprehensive, tracking ownership, club participation, and model type. And Nissan had arranged for a grand party encompassing approximately three acres of car show and festivities! The event included a road rally / poker run, Vintage Z displays, a “Best Original” and “Best of Show car contest, merchandise displays, and food, beverages, and entertainment. The final Nissan 300Zx was on display as were several vintage Datsuns contributed by Nissan, Nissan employees, and Les Cannaday. Inside the corporate headquarters lobby, a number of “Dream Garage” vehicles were on display. A band played period ‘70s cover songs throughout the afternoon. It was a lovely sunny day and a slight breeze blew in from the West. The picnic area was set with a number of umbrella tables and colorful red and yellow balloons fluttered in the breeze. A little after 1:00, the awards presentations began.

    Although there were minor changes to the agenda when it was announced that Yutaka Katayama would attend, the schedule began with a car show and judging early in the morning. Bill Halsey of Z Owners Northern California took top honors for “Most Original 240Z”. The Rally / Poker Run lasted approximately two hours with over 150 cars in participation followed by an awards presentation, announcements and comments. The completed Vintage Zs were formally presented to the representing Z-Store dealers. The Z-Store program was discussed indicating that certified 1990 – 1996 300ZX cars were already on sale as phase 1 of the program. Phase 2 was the introduction of the Vintage Zs and they were offered for just under $25,000 that day. During the presentations hosted by Tom Orbe, Vice President of Nissan Marketing (NMC USA), Mr. K was introduced and given a gift of a photo album reflecting on his years with Nissan USA. Mr. K gave a short speech and discussed his feelings about his test drive in the Vintage Z; “smooth acceleration and comfortable ride”. He described the cars as “refurbished” and used a “VZ” abbreviation from his notes during his speech. Introductions of key people in the program were made including Pierre Perot. Dale Ishimoto, the “Hollywood Mr. K” was also introduced complete with the dog from the Dream Garage commercial.

    The first few Vintage Zs were just complete by the time of the Rally. The delay situation is reflected in the invitation with an explanation that the Quality Control Launch Rally was actually a component of the Nissan program of quality control. Announcing that Vintage Zs would be sold with a 12,000 mile / 12 month bumper-to-bumper warranty, the Rally was presented as the final step in the extensive inspection and quality process; an extended road test. Notable racing legends including John Morton and members of the automotive press were invited to participate and test drive the cars. To my best understanding, five Vintage Zs were available at the Rally. Two were automatics. Two were the typically seen silver cars. As the restoration process was in full progress, an extensive display was prepared including a chassis on a rotisserie and a chassis covered in protective foam padding exclusively made for the program. Engines were on display stands and component parts were on display.

    The program was a large success for Nissan USA Marketing. Within 24 days, Nissan marketing estimated an audience reach of over 84,000,000 people as a result of the publicity the Rally generated. Nissan figures estimate over 59 “news coverage” references including approximately 25 television news broadcasts and 6 major automotive publications. The Z Restoration Program was a major automotive news as well as corporate news topic for the moment. And if I may conclude with my own speculation….this is where I think the F word began!!!
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  78. #78
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    Default Restomods

    As an off-shoot for those wondering how a Nissan restored 240Z would fair in a judged car show where ZCCA rules apply, an inquiry has gone out to the individuals responsible for determining the rules for ZCCA's "stock" class to see what they say about "resto-mod" or whatever you want to call these 240s. I imagine it will take a few weeks to get a ruling from this group of people but I will post it as soon as I hear.

    In advance of this request for information, let me pre-guess the answer. I believe the reply will be that a car owner can place their car in any class as long as they realize that points will be deducted as per the ZCCA rules. As an example, a 240Z with more than 10 modifications would score very low against a similar car with fewer mods in stock class. The modded car would be better off in the "street mod" class.

    If you haven't been part of a ZCCA judged car show, a few points would help to understand the classes. There's daily driver (no engine bay inspection), stock, street mod, Nissan mod, and Ultra. Awards are given for each model (240, 260, 280, etc.) and classes progress as the mods increase. A mod is something a judge can see (wheels, seats, radio, etc.) as opposed to say forged pistons, a ported head, or different gears in the diff. There are 300 total points available which is broken down into three catagories- engine bay, interior and exterior (100 points each). More info can be found at www.zcca.org . The farther you go away from stock class, the more appearance (vs OEM correctness and appearance) plays a role in the judging since a mod is the product of the owner's imagination and budget. For the judge it's a matter of how well the mod was installed and the lack of dirt, dings, scratches, etc.

    Stock class is the hardest to get a high score mostly IMHO due to the number of mods POs might have made to their cars or in the use of incorrect replacement parts (ie., plastic where metal was used, etc.), dealer options that are not considered "stock", the wrong paint, or the removal of stock items (smog equipment).

    While of importance to those whos' interest is strictly stock Zs, it goes towards what the ZCCA defines as a bench-mark example of what really is a stock 240Z. I for one doubt that the resto-mods would do as well in a ZCCA judged event as some might think.
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    gnosez wrote:
    >As an off-shoot for those wondering how a Nissan restored 240Z would
    >fair in a judged car show where ZCCA rules apply, an inquiry has gone
    >out to the individuals responsible for determining the rules for ZCCA's
    >"stock" class to see what they say about "resto-mod" or whatever you
    >want to call these 240s. I imagine it will take a few weeks to get a ruling
    >from this group of people but I will post it as soon as I hear.

    Hi Gnosez /everyone:
    A "Stock" 240-Z, A Modified 240-Z and a Vintage Z are three entirely different categories. I seriously doubt anyone that knew anything about the Marque would put any of them in the same category for a seriously Judged Competition.

    Secondly, the ZCCA depends to a large extent on the financial sponsorship of Nissan Motors. They would not be foolish enough to put Vintage Z's in the common classes of "Stock" nor "Modified" cars. The Vintage Z Program Cars are an Automotive Historic Milestone themselves and therefore will always be of more interest to the public and the serious collectors.

    Five years from now, there will most likely be 1000 Very High Quality Modified 240-Z's around, a 100 Pure Stock 240-Z's and 1 Vintage Z. Maybe the numbers are 4000, 400 and 40... Whatever the absolute number.. the ratio's well be about that..

    Enthusiasts are always drawn to examples of the Marque that offer something more interesting in terms of their history. Cars owned by famous people, famous competition cars, factory specials etc. are simply "SHOWN"... they usually don't even compete in the normal Show Car Categories.


    FWIW,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
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  80. #80
    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    We "discussed" the differences in stock, original (vintage), etc. cars in another topic. I'm not sure where mine would be. I think we all got 'discuss-ted.'

    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11413

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    If these cars are being sold as "new" with a warranty, etc., then they are STOCK as-is. There can be no other conclusion. Just because it's a"1972" doesn't mean it's not "new." Otherwise, either the owners are paying to much for a "used car," or the rebuilders are getting overpaid.

    Lots of streetrod builders register their cars as a new "1932 ford" thought it was built in 2004.

  82. #82
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    This will be the eternal discussion point revolving around the definition of stock.

    Isn't stock just the basic car/whatever without any additions as it comes off the assembly line?

    Any factory/dealer options added after that point would be original accessories?
    Mike of the Mire

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  83. #83
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    I like the definition from the ACCA:

    STOCK CLASS:

    Vehicles exhibited must be configured exactly as shipped
    from factory (NOT DEALER). Cars with Dealer add-ons
    such, as wheels, other than stock tires, side moldings,
    etc. can enter this class with deductions for same.
    Radios, paint color, tires, etc. must be as shipped. A/C
    must be factory installed except 240Z which may have
    same A/C as installed by dealer, i.e. ARA or Frigid
    King, with basic York compressor. Daily Drivers can
    enter this class if desired.

    The reason is that of documentation. You can look up what was on the car from the build sheet (which has the add-ons) or the manufacturer's brochure.
    That way you won't have to depend on memory.

    The new preoblem we have now is that since these 240Zs are being reduilt/refurbished/whatever, we (or they) need to decide if the condition at sale is F-stock, rebuilt-stock, or whatever. I haven't heard of any non-stock extras being added to the cars buring rebuild, but the the possibility is there.

    thx
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 01-16-2005 at 04:17 PM.

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    Default Define Stock

    I may be wrong but didn't I read in this, now 6 page thread, that buyers could request paint colors not available for the original 240s or have 5-spds installed? Point deductions, but finding a 5-spd with a 4-spd shift knob would require a change in the no-touch rule so that this tranny swaps could be found out.

    As to dealer options they are not considered to be stock items as per the ZCCA. For those showing in a ZCCA sponsored event, then those rules would apply. As to whether anyone would put these restored,"F" 240s in stock class against other orginial 240s, that I think might be moot, as I recall hearing about a Nissan restored 240 entered in a ZCCA judged event. I will contact the head of ZCCA stock judges committee and see if this has in fact occured.

    That being said, a very good point can be raised as to just who defines what "stock" is. An owner of a significant 240 will want the ultimate value of the car determined by the organization with the most standing. The ZCCA is not there yet, therefor it would default to the another group. Thanks Carl for pushing me to think about these and other Zs being judged in other than ZCCA events.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomoHawk
    The reason is that of documentation. You can look up what was on the car from the build sheet (which has the add-ons) or the manufacturer's brochure.
    That way you won't have to depend on memory.

    Does ANYONE have a "build sheet" for a Z Car? I have never seen , nor heard of anyone who did. It is my belief that they simply do not exist. Just because Chebby or Ford provided them doesn't mean that Nissan did.

    IMO about all you can hope to refer to is the Monroney sticker

    ...."automobiles are the only consumer items required by law to carry manufacturer suggested retail price stickers. This sticker, also called a Monroney label, is attached to a window of the vehicle. It shows the base price of that model, including all standard equipment; manufacturer-installed options and their retail prices; transportation or freight charges (also known as destination or delivery charges); and the total manufacturer's suggested retail price. Details about the average fuel economy for the vehicle are required on all cars and light trucks; this information is usually included on the Monroney label, but will sometimes be found on a separate sticker, the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] Fuel Economy Label. The Monroney label may not be removed by anyone other than the purchaser.

    The legislation requiring the sticker is commonly known as the Monroney Law, named after its sponsor in Congress, Almer Stillwell "Mike" Monroney (1902-1980): Born in Oklahoma; U.S. Representative from Oklahoma, 1939-51; U.S. Senator from Oklahoma, 1951-69."
    Last edited by Bambikiller240; 01-16-2005 at 05:35 PM.

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    Carl S. Wrote:
    >Does ANYONE have a "build sheet" for a Z Car? I have never seen ,
    >nor heard of anyone who did. It is my belief that they simply do not exist.
    >Just because Chebby or Ford provided them doesn't mean that Nissan did.

    Hi Carl / everyone:
    I'd phrase it; "Chevy, Ford and others provide build sheets because their assembly line workers need to know what "factory options" should be installed on the car they are building.

    At the Dealerships, the New Car Sales Managers ordered cars from the factory, equipped certain ways for their inventory (depending upon what sold best in their locations) and they Special Ordered cars at their customers directions.

    Because the DATSUN 240-Z's for the North American Market had no factory options, there was no need for a "build sheet" for each individual car.

    The 240-Z's were most likely built following a daily or weekly Production Order. The Production Orders would specify the number of cars, the color of the cars (and therefore the color of the interiors installed), how many cars got standard transmissions and later how many got A/T's. The Production Orders would allow the assembly lines to be supplied with the needed parts... (so many white interiors, so many black interiors - so much white paint, so much red paint, so much gold paint etc. etc.).


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Thanks for the information. Makes sense to me.

  88. #88
    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    I'm used to build sheets. You might be familiar with other things.

    You can call it a production order, build sheet or brochure. In any case there has to be a record, someplace, of what equipment a car has. Either detailed with all the options added on, or just the standard equipment. I wouldn't buy a new car without one.

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    Then you wouldn't have bought a new 240Z. All you got was the Monroney label. If that wasn't good enough for you, the guy standing behind you in the sales area bought the car.

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    I was only 10 when the 240Z came out!

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    Default Vintage Zs in Japan

    Hi 26th-Z,

    I would love to make a research of the vintage Zs living in Japan.
    So far I know 4 vintage Z cars are living in Japan.

    1. A red 01/70 car (still on sale aprox.$60,000 U.S.!!) I did see this car.
    2. A gold 04/70 car (owned by Mr.Ohba) I did see this car.
    3. A blue ?/72 car (owned by a car magazine office)
    4. A silver ?/70 car (still on sale aprox.$40,000 U.S.!!) I did see this car.

    When I get photos of these cars, I will post them.And if I get VINs and other informations I also post them.

    Thank you,

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884

    1972 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-60213 (12/71)
    L24-072419

    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

  92. #92
    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kats
    I would love to make a research of the vintage Zs living in Japan.
    So far I know 4 vintage Z cars are living in Japan.
    Perhaps some of those cars should be taken back to the factory for a visit. After all, they haven't been there in 30+ years.
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

  93. #93
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    yes kats! Take some pics
    --Dave aka Dogma420 My Gallery
    Early '72 red 110 / white (10/71)
    HLS30 56895

  94. #94
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Thanks Kats!

    I want to let everyone know that I am working hard on my research paper. A growing number of Vintage Zs have been found and documented. I have photos of probably half the cars. I have seen and photographed four of them myself. Current values have been documented. The research material includes over 30 articles and related documents. All kinds of activity is going on and I have scheduled a meeting in Virginia with my "mentor" to go over the rough draft and set the "compendium" in its final direction this May. The final document is planned to be ready for the national convention in August and I plan to discuss making it available with Mike here on this site. So many people have helped and I really appreciate every bit of information sent my way. Everyone keep your eyes peeled for Vintage Z information, cars, and photographs.

    Many, many thanks!

    Chris

    I hope to assemble a very comprehensive, informative look at the program and the cars. So far, the work has taken quite a bit of time, but the final result should be great reading
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
    Go Gators
    Go Butler Bulldogs

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    I can't wait to read. So when it is available to the Z community will it be in book form or what? Sounds like you are doing a total bang up job!
    '73 240Z - HLS30-171979 *Under Construction*
    88' BMW 325is - E30

    "You can get what you want or you can just get old" - Billy Joel

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    Put me down for a copy too!
    halz
    ---------------------------
    New headers and 2.25" sports system: They say "loud doesn't mean fast"... I'm just testing the theory!

  97. #97
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Flip over to the ZCCA site - Zcars - Z history and check out this "compendium" about Mr. K. http://www.zcca.org/pages/ZCarsZhistoryMrK.htm This is a good example of what I am up to. Not really a book....a booklet.
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
    Go Gators
    Go Butler Bulldogs

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats
    Hi 26th-Z,

    I would love to make a research of the vintage Zs living in Japan.
    So far I know 4 vintage Z cars are living in Japan.

    1. A red 01/70 car (still on sale aprox.$60,000 U.S.!!) I did see this car.
    2. A gold 04/70 car (owned by Mr.Ohba) I did see this car.
    3. A blue ?/72 car (owned by a car magazine office)
    4. A silver ?/70 car (still on sale aprox.$40,000 U.S.!!) I did see this car.

    When I get photos of these cars, I will post them.And if I get VINs and other informations I also post them.
    Hi Kats:
    The "Red" one is most likely HLS30 00630, sold by the Rick Cole Auction company at the Monterey Historics. This was a car donated by Nissan Motors for a charity event. As I recall, the sale price was something close to $34,800.00 and the car went to Japan.

    At the time, I was trying to help the buyer for the Vintage Z Program find a car to prepare for this event. I had located HLS30 00240, a red Z and tried to talk him into buying it for this event. The owner however wanted more for the car than Nissan was willing to pay at the time. (as I recall the owner wanted $6,500.00 back then).


    FWIW,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
    Clearwater,FL USA
    http://ZHome.com

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    Thanks Kats!

    I want to let everyone know that I am working hard on my research paper. A growing number of Vintage Zs have been found and documented. I have photos of probably half the cars. .............
    Hi Chris:
    Are you saying that you have found 26 of the VZ's? With Joseph's latest additions we have pictures of 13 of them on the VZ Register so far. Is that the half you have?

    IZCC Vintage Z Register:
    http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/VintageZ.htm


    VZ Pictures:
    http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/VintagePictures.htm


    There has got be a picture of HLS30 00630 somewhere in the net archives. I'll keep looking...

    FWIW,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
    Clearwater, FL USA
    http://ZHome.com

  100. #100
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    Good God Carl, that picture you took of Scott and I back in 2000 makes us look like a couple of redneck farmers . You must get a better picture of JUST THE CAR, please .

    Can you go to our club website suncoastzcarclub.homestead.com and get a better picture? Chris (26th) took lots of pictures of the Z at the Tampa Convention Center.

    Vicky
    Zweet

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