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Thread: gotta sell my 69 fairlady

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    Default gotta sell my 69 fairlady

    Well things have changed and I may have to sell my fairlady. Its a complete numbers matching car but needs a complete resturation. Its a late 1969 ( nov) production right hand drive fairlady, serial number 00144. Its titled as a 1969 car ( please dont start on if there is such thing as a 1969 Z car or not )

    My problem is I have no idea what it is worth. Is there any link were I can find a ball park fugure?

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    DOn't worry about what she is worth, send her to a great home(like Mine!) where she will get all of the TLC she can handle, and be the trophy car she deserves to be!
    I don't know what she would be worth either-need pictures, lots and lots of pictures!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hls30.com
    DOn't worry about what she is worth, send her to a great home(like Mine!) where she will get all of the TLC she can handle, and be the trophy car she deserves to be!
    I don't know what she would be worth either-need pictures, lots and lots of pictures!
    Will

    I second all of what Will has said...except that it should be sent to my home.

    Seriously though, how much are you looking to get for it? I may be interested in buying it. Where are you located?
    '70 240Z - HLS30-08215 - Production Date 8/70
    '70 240Z - HLS30-06293 - Rusty and has Identity Crisis (must have been wrecked and the back 1/2 sectioned in from a later car maybe even a 280Z)...PARTS CAR!
    '71 240Z - HLS30-018482 - Production Date 1/71,Corvette Yellow, driven under a 4Runner, bought for parts, hit lotto with parts on car, may fix and put back on road

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    OH YES ! ! ! Pictures Please. Lots of pictures! Serious interest. Lets have a look at your car!
    Enjoy the Ride
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    HS30? S30? I'm pretty sure from the serial number it's not a SR311. In 1969 and 1970, there was more than one Fairlady.
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    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ictures247.jpg

    Its located on the esat coast. These pictures were taken when it was pulled out as just as it was being transfered into my garage, so it was only out in the weather for a few months. When it was parked it was running, the engine was rebuilt in the mid 80s but has been sitting for over 10 years. When itwas pulled up on my trailer the rear brakes were locked up. The car has been in my family since 1979 and am the second owner.
    It has rust above the rear wheel wells and there is rust damage under the battery tray and to the left frame rail, very extensive as the rail is missing ! besides that the floors and rear hatch area are in good shape. I still think I have the original wheels and hub caps.

    Oh yes it still has the original 2000 cc and 5 speed. The exhaust mainifold was replaced with a header by my father in 1980. I have no idea were it went to.
    Last edited by NovaSS; 03-04-2005 at 03:46 PM.

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    What paper work do you have on the car? Do you have a title? Where on the east coast is the car? I would like to come look at it. I will bring money, and a trailer.

    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 03-04-2005 at 05:10 PM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Default '69 Fairlady

    Sounds like it needs some work.... but.. hey, she's worth it! Must feel a little weird to shift with your left hand? ...... Nova SS, are those goats I see in the background??...and green grass?? You must live in the SE. 26th Z is probably the closest to you....#26 & 27 would love to have some company!!
    Steve

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    hhm do I hear a price yet ?
    72 240z Yellow
    HLS3077658
    Nickname "Rusty"
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    Thanks for the flood of private mail !

    To answer the questions, Yes I have the title and its a clear Louisanna ( sp?) title and its regestered as a 1969 car. I know of all the depate about 1969 cars. It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. As far as I can tell this one ran off the line in Novemeber and was titled to a GI station there. He brought it back to the US and sold it to my dad in the late 70s.

    The car is in Delaware, just out side of Dover.
    I will not know if I will have to sell or not. I will know before the end of the month. Im just trying to find out a fair value of the car and to see if there is a mrket for it.

    As for the goats Yes, matter of fact I forgot to list one peice of damage. One of the goats climbed on the roof and dented it !

    Right now its in my garage and I will go over and try to get some more pics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaSS
    I know of all the depate about 1969 cars. It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. As far as I can tell this one ran off the line in Novemeber and was titled to a GI station there.
    Hi NovaSS,
    I'm not sure where you got that figure of 300 or so Fairladies for 1969?

    Nissan Shatai's records show that they had manufactured 969 'Domestic' market S30-series cars ( and 543 'Export' market S30-series cars - which will be 'HS30' and 'HLS30' models ) up to the end of December 1969.

    Nissan Shatai's figures for 'Domestic' market cars do not differentiate between Fairlady Z S30-S / S30 models ( Z and Z-L ) and Fairlady PS30 / PS30-SB ( Z432 / 432R ) models.

    However, official records for 'Domestic' chassis numbers ( 'Shatai Bango' in Japanese ) manufactured within the 1968 and 1976 period do exist, and these differentiate between S30 and PS30 variants. These chassis numbers are broken down by year in the records.

    The chassis numbers quoted for 1969 year manufacture are:

    *S30 ( Fairlady Z & Fairlady Z-L ) = Chassis Numbers S30-00001~00953
    *PS30 ( Fairlady Z432 & Fairlady Z432-R ) = Chassis Numbers PS30-00001~00072

    As you can see, Nissan Shatai's figures for the quantities of 'Domestic' bodies manufactured in 1969 ( total 969 ) do not add up with the official records of Chassis Numbers manufactured in 1969 ( 953 'S30' prefixed plus 72 'PS30' prefixed = 1025 cars total ).

    However, looking at the monthly breakdown of Nissan Shatai's figures, I think its safe to say that your car ( S30-00144 ) would indeed have been manufactured in November 1969. That's a nice low VIN number and I would say its a pretty rare survivor of 1969 production Fairladies. It is definitely worthy of being saved.

    Just one point: you mentioned that it was "numbers matching", and I know what you mean ( original engine in original chassis ) but the Japanese VIN tags never quoted the actual engine number. They just quoted the engine type related to its taxation class, as can be seen on the VIN tag picture that you posted.

    Whatever you do ( keep or sell ) I wish you all the best with it. If it wasn't so far away from me I would have been knocking on your door by now

    Good luck,
    Alan T.

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    It does sound like a lot of restore work but it would likely be worth it. I'm still interested please keep me informed.
    '70 240Z - HLS30-08215 - Production Date 8/70
    '70 240Z - HLS30-06293 - Rusty and has Identity Crisis (must have been wrecked and the back 1/2 sectioned in from a later car maybe even a 280Z)...PARTS CAR!
    '71 240Z - HLS30-018482 - Production Date 1/71,Corvette Yellow, driven under a 4Runner, bought for parts, hit lotto with parts on car, may fix and put back on road

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    Dover, Delaware? Too much! 27 came from Dover, Delaware.

    Interesting interior pose. The seat folds forward? Notice the seatbelt hook on the passenger seat.
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    The Twins threw a fit didn't they?
    I am seriously interested in the car.
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Oh, you don't know the half of it Will. Go get that car!

    Nova, you mentioned having the original hub caps. I would love to see them.
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    5 speed?


    Vicky
    Zweet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zrush
    5 speed?
    Yes. FS5C71-A.

    From the Factory.

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    Yes, Vicky. Unfortunately, someone at Nissan decided that the USA did not deserve a 5 speed transmission in our 240Z's, but they were available to other markets. As you know, we had to wait until the 260Z came out to be allowed the choice of a 5 speed trans.

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    I didn't know that a 5-speed was availible in a US export 260z model? I thought that it was not until the 75' 280z that there were 5-speeds. Maybe a late 260z had a 5-speed?

    NOVA, I wish you the best of luck with selling your car. It is a very special car indeed.

    Regards,
    Ben
    "A real sports car chooses its owner because it has a soul. If you're chosen, you'll love it, and the more it requires care and maintenance the more you love it." -Mr. Morita (Z432 owner)

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    I thought the 77 280Z was the first year offered (here in the US) with the 5 speed.


    Vicky
    Zweet

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    Hi NovaSS,
    I'm not sure where you got that figure of 300 or so Fairladies for 1969?

    Nissan Shatai's records show that they had manufactured 969 'Domestic' market S30-series cars ( and 543 'Export' market S30-series cars - which will be 'HS30' and 'HLS30' models ) up to the end of December 1969.

    Nissan Shatai's figures for 'Domestic' market cars do not differentiate between Fairlady Z S30-S / S30 models ( Z and Z-L ) and Fairlady PS30 / PS30-SB ( Z432 / 432R ) models.

    However, official records for 'Domestic' chassis numbers ( 'Shatai Bango' in Japanese ) manufactured within the 1968 and 1976 period do exist, and these differentiate between S30 and PS30 variants. These chassis numbers are broken down by year in the records.

    The chassis numbers quoted for 1969 year manufacture are:

    *S30 ( Fairlady Z & Fairlady Z-L ) = Chassis Numbers S30-00001~00953
    *PS30 ( Fairlady Z432 & Fairlady Z432-R ) = Chassis Numbers PS30-00001~00072

    As you can see, Nissan Shatai's figures for the quantities of 'Domestic' bodies manufactured in 1969 ( total 969 ) do not add up with the official records of Chassis Numbers manufactured in 1969 ( 953 'S30' prefixed plus 72 'PS30' prefixed = 1025 cars total ).

    However, looking at the monthly breakdown of Nissan Shatai's figures, I think its safe to say that your car ( S30-00144 ) would indeed have been manufactured in November 1969. That's a nice low VIN number and I would say its a pretty rare survivor of 1969 production Fairladies. It is definitely worthy of being saved.

    Just one point: you mentioned that it was "numbers matching", and I know what you mean ( original engine in original chassis ) but the Japanese VIN tags never quoted the actual engine number. They just quoted the engine type related to its taxation class, as can be seen on the VIN tag picture that you posted.

    Whatever you do ( keep or sell ) I wish you all the best with it. If it wasn't so far away from me I would have been knocking on your door by now

    Good luck,
    Alan T.

    OOPs it was a typo I ment about 900.

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    Iím not positive but I think 77 was the first year for five speed transmisions in north America. They only made something like 500 of them in 77. They made a big deal about it on my car, it has a big 5 speed emblem on the back of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zrush
    I thought the 77 280Z was the first year offered (here in the US) with the 5 speed. Vicky
    Vicky:

    You could very well be correct. I thought that I remembered a neighbor having a 5 speed in a 260Z (back in 74), but I could certainly be wrong.(It's been 30 years and my memory hasn't gotten better over time) I've looked through some books and don't see any mention of 5 speeds in the US models until 280Z production. Kinda strange that it took so long to get 5 speeds here since Road and Track and other mags pointed out the lack of it very early on.

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    What? It's been less than a year since you bought the car NovaSS!

    Looks a treat though. Something very unique good luck.

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    I don't mean to offend, but I think that a 5spd wasn't offered in the original 240z because the North American Market at the time swayed more towards Automatic. And the manual transmission cars of the late 60's were either 3 or 4 spd. The other reason for offering a 5 spd was fuel economy. Back then in North America fuel economy wasn't a big issue.

    Alex

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    Well, the majority of 60's and 70's Sports cars (of any kind) were not sold equipped with automatics (Auto'a were offered, but manual transmissions were more popular). Nissan offered automatics in cars manufactured from 08/71, but the majority of cars were still sold with manual transmissions. Road and Track (and other enthuisiast magazines) pointed out that lack of a 5 speed quite early on, and even if Nissan didn't acknowledge the demand, a lot of people were clamoring for it. Perhaps they (Nissan) were too busy meeting rapidly changing US Emission laws, or something else was in play, but there was a strong desire for a 5 speed, and you are right that it wasn't for fuel economy reasons. It was largely for performance reasons.

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    Cool

    I showed Ol Yeller a pic of the fairlady and it was love at first sight. I think she's lonely. Would make a nice addition to my collection. Hey Chris, what do you think???? I'd love to take her home and give Ol '69 some TLC. Will see what happens: need to tak to the boss about this one!

    Scott :
    Zweet

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    A couple of comments:
    Fuel economy was a very large concern in America during the '70s. I'll point to the "Datsun Saves" add campaign. Americans waited in line to buy gasoline in 1973/4 and the president told us to turn off our Christmas lights in order to conserve oil. The national speed limit was reduced to 55mph.

    Scott / Vicky,
    I don't think I can voice my enthusiasm more!
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    Very true Chris, but the desire for a 5 speeed preceded the "gas crisis" of 73/74 by a few years. Once the price of gas rose, and the availability of it declined, the 5 speed would have been (was) desirable for both economy and performance.

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    Im not sure but I dont think the 4 and 5 speed has the same spread in ratios. I was under the impression the 5 speed has a lower first gear to make up for the smaller motor in the Fairladys, remeber they only had a 2000 cc 6 cylinder.

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    I'd say that the main reasons the USA / North American market 'HLS30-U' model was equipped with a 4-speed instead of a 5-speed were first of all COST savings, and secondly the perceived lack of sophistication of the potential market ( whether that was correct or not ).

    Don't forget that the HLS30-U model also had different ( softer ) spring rates and different ( softer ) damper rates in comparison to all other market models, and - initially at least - no rear Anti Roll Bar ( despite the fact that these were a part of the original design ). The HLS30-U also had a 'softer' front Anti Roll Bar in comparison to all other market models.

    This idea that all the other market models "needed" the 5-speed to compensate for a lack of power and torque is complete nonsense. Having a 5-speed transmission in that period was something of a luxury, and was still seen as rather fancy and exotic. A close ratio overdrive transmission was an essential part of the sporting drive, with the first four ratios nice and close for fun and the overdrive ratio available for high speed cruising at constant speeds. The fact that many of the other ( mainly European ) sports / GT models pitched at the USA market at the time were also equipped with 4 speeds should tell us more about the USA market than the cars themselves. Many of these cars came with 5 speeds in other markets.....

    Did the non-USA export-market '240Z' models have a 5-speed and 3.9 ratio diff to compensate for a lack of torque? Did the 432 and 432R have a 5-speed and 4.44 diff ratio to compensate for a lack of power? No. They had them because the buyers of such vehicles expected and wanted a close ratio 5 speed as part of the sports / GT car experience.

    My everyday-driver Alfa Romeo 156 has a close ratio 6 speed transmission. Does anybody seriously think this is to 'compensate' for something lacking? Do any modern cars have four speed transmissions? I can't think of one.

    There's a strong case to suggest that the HLS30-U was a 'dumbed down' sports car aimed at a market that was perceived ( perhaps mistakenly, I'd say )
    not to require the same level of sporting character as other markets at that time. It seems that most owners of such cars have a hard time coming to terms with that fact.

    Nevertheless this 'dumbed down' sports car sold like hot cakes in its intended market. So maybe they got it right overall? Call it how you want to call it.

    The Japanese home market got a big choice of models, specs and optional parts right from the beginning of sales. The cheapest 'base model' Fairlady S30-S was equipped with a 4-speed and suitable diff ratio, with a 5-speed as an extra cost option. All other models were equipped with a 5 speed and suitable diff ratio, with the 4 speed available as an option.

    You'd have to say that a similar choice of models and specs would have been popular in the USA. Imagine if an official sharpened-up model for the serious enthusiast was available off the showroom floor in the USA; something like Car and Driver magazine's "240 Omega" could have been the perfect choice for the serious sporty driver at the time.

    Anyone who has driven an early Fairlady with L20A and 5 speed / 3.9 diff combo will know that it is a really nice package. It is irritating to see and hear people who have never even seen one of these cars in the flesh - let alone driven one - implying that they are in some way odd-ball models or are impaired by a matter of 400 cubic centimetres.

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    I think that Mr. K et. al. mispercieved the desires of the US market, as you said, but in retrospect, it really didn't matter. The Z would have sold at a higher price, considering what else was comprable at the time. They couldn't keep them in the showrooms as it was. I had to wait 6 weeks to get my 70. I would have bought whatever they had. There is no doubt in my mind that stock L20A would run cirlces around a stock L24. But if the intent was to sell cars here based on the their preception of what the US wanted, then, as you say, they got it right.
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    Do you happen to know ratios of the early 5 speed compared to the 4 speed? I keep finding conflicting numbers.

    As for the performance of the 2000 cc vs the 2400 cc, it made a differance. This Fairlady was raced a few times in 1978 at Summit Point, just for some practice laps ,stock against a few other 240z. The 240s walked away from it in the straights, even after switching drivers. Thats why the header was later installed with some minor carb work, just so it could keep up with other club members.

    That is why I was wondering if the ealry 5 speed had different ratios , to cover the lack of performance (?) over the 240z

    He later picked up a 2800 engine out of a car that fell off the back of a car carrier with 3 miles on it. It was going to be installed as a "sleeper package" but he never got around to it. That engine is still laying around also.
    Last edited by NovaSS; 03-06-2005 at 06:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaSS
    Do you happen to know ratios of the early 5 speed compared to the 4 speed? I keep finding conflicting numbers.

    ....That is why I was wondering if the ealry 5 speed had different ratios , to cover the lack of performance (?) over the 240z.
    5 Speed ratios for 1969 & 1970 Fairlady Z-L model ( FS5C71-A transmission ):
    1st = 2.957
    2nd = 1.858
    3rd = 1.311
    4th = 1.000
    5th = 0.852
    R = 2.922
    Diff ratio = 3.9:1

    You keep making the assertion that a 5 speed transmission was fitted to "cover the lack of performance over the 240Z". I'd like to remind you that the Fairlady Z 432 and 432R both had exactly the same transmission ratios as the Z-L, and were rated at 160ps ( ie - more peak power than the HLS30-U ), as did the other non-USA market HLS30 models and HS30 models - which like the HLS30-U had the L24 engine. They were certainly not fitted with the overdrive 5 speed to cover any lack of performance, were they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    I'd say that the main reasons the USA / North American market 'HLS30-U' model was equipped with a 4-speed instead of a 5-speed were first of all COST savings, and secondly the perceived lack of sophistication of the potential market ( whether that was correct or not ).

    (editted only for brevity here)
    I agree with the entire post (though I cannot speak to the last paragraph due to lack of experience).

    Given the sales and success of the 240Z N. American model as delivered, Nissan IMO did get it "right". I do wonder if they could have gotten it "righter" (more right) with a "sporty" upgrade option as you describe (similar to C & D's Omega 240) which I assume had a 5 speed and some other improved features? We'll never know , I guess.

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    I don't think it was because there was a total lack of demand in America for the 5 speed. It's obvious that there was some demand, but from what I've learnt about Nissan (and this is pure speculation here) it could have been simply that the extra cost outweighed the benefits. Remember, there were hundreds of these things being shipped to the US. Manufacturing processes were very good at Nissan, but adding the optional 5-speed for a big, far away market adds another level of complexity to it. That's why dealers customised a lot of the cars. It's much easier to do that than assemble custom drivetrains in the factory... and imagine the wait!

    Giving the option of a 5 speed would have made more customers happy I'm sure, but I think it could have cost more than it was worth......

    My thoughts anyway.

    (like Alan said, one thing is for sure - it wasn't for the lack of power of domestic models! America is the odd one out here, not Japan!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    5 Speed ratios for 1969 & 1970 Fairlady Z-L model ( FS5C71-A transmission ):
    1st = 2.957
    2nd = 1.858
    3rd = 1.311
    4th = 1.000
    5th = 0.852
    R = 2.922
    Diff ratio = 3.9:1

    You keep making the assertion that a 5 speed transmission was fitted to "cover the lack of performance over the 240Z". I'd like to remind you that the Fairlady Z 432 and 432R both had exactly the same transmission ratios as the Z-L, and were rated at 160ps ( ie - more peak power than the HLS30-U ), as did the other non-USA market HLS30 models and HS30 models - which like the HLS30-U had the L24 engine. They were certainly not fitted with the overdrive 5 speed to cover any lack of performance, were they?

    No I dont keep making the assertion, I keep asking questions ( notice the question mark in my reply ) to better understand something Im not very familure with. Im am not an expert on Datsun Z cars, that is why I came here to ask questions.

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    Once again, our discussions have turned into the sharing of informative, factual accounting about our beloved in a world environment and not just the "relevant" market. Thanks. I am enjoying this chat. I think the point we are missing about the four speed transmission in the American market is that it didn't matter. The Datsun 240Z (HLS30U) didn't need a five speed transmission to BLOW off the competition - two time national champion in the first two years since introduction. Whether or not the American market was sophisticated enough to demand a five speed is irrelevant. The 240Z surpassed everything in its class and kept up with sports cars well outside it's class (read Corvette) perfectly without any perceived performance enhancement of a five speed - close ratio or not. In 1970, Americans were lucky to get a four speed. Most everything from Detriot that closely resembles the Datsun 240Z class came with three-speeds. The HLS30U / 240Z was so perfectly suited to the American market that it sold in droves propelling it to fame. If you think about it, a 432 Fairlady would have been dangerous. It is a GOOD thing that Americans got four speeds!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    .....The Datsun 240Z (HLS30U) didn't need a five speed transmission to BLOW off the competition - two time national champion in the first two years since introduction.
    26th-Z,
    Slightly off topic but...
    Are you referring to the BRE SCCA C-Production cars here?

    I recall reading that they were using a 5 speed overdrive transmission ( the FS5C71-A ) on the BRE car(s). Was that legal under C-Production rules?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    I think the point we are missing about the four speed transmission in the American market is that it didn't matter. The Datsun 240Z (HLS30U) didn't need a five speed transmission to BLOW off the competition - two time national champion in the first two years since introduction. Whether or not the American market was sophisticated enough to demand a five speed is irrelevant.
    The wishes of a vocal segment of the Sports car market (who gladly payed premium $$ over MSRP for the priviledge of owning a Z) is irrelevent?

    Sounds like the sort thinking of the US automakers that put them in the position to lose a lot of sales to a car company like Nissan which was perceived as delivering more "bang for the buck".

    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    In 1970, Americans were lucky to get a four speed. Most everything from Detriot that closely resembles the Datsun 240Z class came with three-speeds.
    The Ford Pinto of the same period had a 4 Speed. (I'm not saying it's in the same class as a 240Z, I considered it an economy car; which IMO is LESS than a 240Z)

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    It's Ok Carl,
    We all know you secretly administrate at www.fordpinto.com!
    I must admit it is very unlike your persona here to hide and make excuses for it thought!
    Ok my vacation from reality is now over!
    I think the 240Z was simply "clearly the superior product", and Nissan did what most companys do: If it is working don't fix it. We have 4speeds, they are buying as many as we can turn out, and you want us to make a change? When we run out, or the price of five speeds drop to equal or less than four speeds, then, we will do something different. I don't think anythiong was irrelevant except the seemingly forgotten fact that what was done worked better than anything else to that point!
    That said, I am glad several of you are educating NovaSS, and the rest of us about his car. I am in the same boat with 26thZ.
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    You are right Will.

    From a Nissan "bean counter's" standpoint there was no reason for them to "improve" the product beyond what was already selling so briskly that they could not supply the demand.

    From an enthusiast's stand point it would have been grand to CRUSH the competition, rather than just BEAT them.
    Last edited by Bambikiller240; 03-06-2005 at 04:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hls30.com
    It's Ok Carl,
    We all know you secretly administrate at www.fordpinto.com!
    I must admit it is very unlike your persona here to hide and make excuses for it though!
    Not a moderator, but I DID own a 71 Pinto with 2.0L German Ford OHC, and 4 Speed Trans. Drove the Pi$$ out of it for 3 years until I got my first Z, then used as a commuter car while I worked on upgrading the Z several times.

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    I knew it a closet(dare I say Garage) pinto fanatic!
    That explains a lot...Ooh-now I understand about the sheep and the motorbike!

    Nissan already had a winner, and diid not have the luxury of hindsight, they didn't dare fix what Mr. K. broke for them...
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 03-06-2005 at 04:36 PM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    But it wouldn't have taken hindsight when (early on) the clamor arose. Foresight would have done the trick.


    I still have a set of Pinto wheels in the garage that would look great on one of your Z's. I think the bolt pattern is right too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hls30.com
    I knew it a closet(dare I say Garage) pinto fanatic!
    That explains a lot...Ooh-now I understand about the sheep and the motorbike!

    Nissan already had a winner, and diid not have the luxury of hindsight, they didn't dare fix what Mr. K. broke for them...
    Will
    Hey! I owned a Pinto too. But seriously, the second part of your post is quite accurate. Look what happened when they tried to 'fix' it. The car became heavier and and more 'Americanized' over the years. I love my 280 but I understand that the philosophy had changed considerably by then. And then, the ZX.........
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    Carl,
    I would hate to feel that I have deprived you of merging your secret love of the Ford Pinto and your well documented love of the 240Z by taking the very wheels you have obviously saved all of these years for your own car ! While I appreciate the jesture, I simply could not accept a gift you treasure so much ! Now the Rewinds you bought to use to keep the Pinto wheels pristine, well, that's another story ! I would be happy to accept those wheels, I would even send you a set of western mags just to make sure your beloved Pinto wheels didn't have to speen too much time on the street when the weather was bad, and the babes weren't watching ! I know the patern is right there !

    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    I was shocked to find those Pinto wheels last week. I thought I had sold off all of that stuff 20 years ago. Found some old Toyota PU wheels as well, and a nice set of 14" Ansen Sprint Z car 5 Slots with center caps.

    Sorry the Rewinds are spoken for. They're MINE!

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    I wish they had shipped the U.S. Market cars with the 5 speed. If they had, I might still be able to get parts for my roadster 5's. That is, unless one of you guys is sitting on a stack of steel servo style syncros for the FS5C71A's

    I'm all for the pinto's baby! There was a pinto that raced at PBIR (early 80's) that tore up track.
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    Wow, excellent post to come back to after a couple of days of working on Beandip's Z.

    Due to the length and broad range of themes, I'd like to pitch in just blurps.

    Regarding the numbers of cars based on reported serial numbers.

    Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

    As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.

    Re U.S. Market and popularity of the Z, and sophistication of the market:

    In hindsight it is easy to determine and assign what made the Z so popular, or what should or shouldn't have been offered. However, it is important to remember that what was happening during the late 60's and not the mid-70's are the driving factors that helped determine what Mr. K decided would be acceptable to the U.S. market.

    The North American market (including Canada) up until then had been the primary market of the primary U.S. auto companies. Although there were a few NON-U.S. manufacturers that could supply a limited amount of market share, their implied and perceived threat to the "Big 3" was considered negligible.

    Product quality, reliability, functionality, and lastly appeal were expected and respected of only a few European companies. The "other" brands were seen as "adequate" for their market, but lacking for the American market. The sellable ones were imported, the esoteric by those with money, and the "practical" or highly desireable by everyone else.

    Japanese manufacturers, unfortunately, were held in very low regard. There was a very long time when the phrase "Made In Japan" was eschewed as a laughable declaration of an inadequate, cheaply made, poor quality product.

    Bringing a product to market that exceeds that market's need, desireability, value, and/or a number of other factors, is a sure fire way of going broke. Technology / products exchanged from such a disparity are what can be labeled as "magic", "miraculous", "innovative" or "KITSCH".

    Trying to introduce a 5 speed gear box to a society that has accepted the automatic transmission as a justified and rightfully deserved luxury, ignores the fact that the vast majority of the buying public was NOT the sports car enthusiast who would have known how to discern the benefit of a 5 speed transmission, but rather Mr Suburban Commuter and Mrs Home Housewife. They wanted it easy, reliable and most importantly...cheap. With Detroit selling 3 speed on the column, and a few 4 on the floor models and lots of automatics, it would have been perceived as unnecessary.

    The average American would not have placed a strong need on a 5 speed transmission since at that time there was no perception of a need to conserve fuel. Allowing your 2 ton behemoth to run at 4500 rpm when you were cruising the road was what it was built for, after all it's 20 gallon gas tank cost slightly more than a few bucks to fill.

    Additionally, American vehicles came equipped with lots of big bulky powerful engines that required additional bulky and power robbing accouterments that powered equally monstrous behemoths of steel down the highway at an amazing level of acceleration and speed. Remember, the biggest sellers of that era were still the Ford Galaxie 500's, the Plymouth Fury, the Dodge Charger, the Oldsmobile Cutlass, the Chevrolet Impala. Yes, there was the Mustang, the Corvair and other smaller vehicles (than the aforementioned), but these were the NEW introductions during that era and NOT the "average". If I recall correctly, each one of these vehicles came with a V8 engine as STANDARD equipment.

    Japanese car manufacturer's were fighting a battle of perception, need, useability and one other item...import tariffs. The only items that could traverse that imposed block to trade were those that could be made with the least cost and the least tariff. Anything that could truly compete against Detroit had been conveniently and effectively barred from market by the simple tariff on imported steel, rubber, and other items as well as the car as a whole.

    So how do you introduce something and make money at it.

    Well, that's when OPEC started growing some fangs. That's also about the time that Israel had escalated it's programs and irritated it's neighbors, and as part of the consequences, raised prices of oil to the U.S..

    Suddenly the benefits of the smaller car became more apparent.

    The market then began investigating those items it had previously ignored.

    Mr K's efforts to bring to the North American market a pleasant vehicle reminiscent of some of the finest European designs, with a strong and spirited engine that handled extremely well and was cheap to operate and most importantly was cheap to buy.....he tapped in on each of the major objections to the product.

    Could he have added items that would have increased it's utility, sportiness, desireability etc? Undoubtedly. But the tariffs were used as a protection mechanism for Detroit for many years. Giving more than what was originally offered may in fact have boosted sales even more, but when production can't meet the demand for the basic product, ADDING to the product would have been counter-productive, it would have actually reduced production, and would have added a higher level of accountability and hence, more costs. When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it up.

    Although the desireability of "if they'd only..." type of items is readily perceived in THIS day and age, it is only after we became exposed to other markets...long after much of the relaxation of tariffs, and long after the markets have reached a more equitable trading field. Not only in the level of sophistication of the buyer, but also in the sophistication of the seller to perceive present and future expectations.

    If you'll recall, the onus of having bought a Japanese car was a very big hurdle for the average Joe in the later 60's, not until the early 70's did you see that begin to disappear.

    Enrique

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    People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in 2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models.

    I must point out that the 240Z was/is a 2 Seat Sports car, not a 4 Seat Muscle car (like the the Ford Galaxie 500's, the Plymouth Fury/Road Runner/Barracuda, the Dodge Charger/Challenger, the Oldsmobile Cutlass/442, the Chevrolet Impala/Nova. or the Rustang. The Z was smaller and weighed far less than the cars previously mentioned and seated only 2. The Z cars competed directly against the European Sports cars imported to North America, and indirectly against a few of the smaller American car's (but the Corvair was gone about the time the Z car first arrived). The Z was not marketed as a family car, or Muscle car. It was a Sports/GT, and a 2 Seater at that. Apples and Oranges IMO. It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different. They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped cars and considered them desirable.

    I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese auto imports to compete in North America. The way I recall the situation, Nissan shipped as many Z cars as they could manufacture to the USA. They were (no doubt) manufactured to a certain price point, but that point did not seem to be a hinderance to the marketplace. No threat to the "Big Three" was perceived at that time by anyone (least of all the Big Three themselves). No threat was recognized for some time, (around the mid to late 70's AIR) well after the 240Z had established it's (and Nissan's) presence in the North American marketplace. Even then tariffs didn't stop (or slow) imports, the threat of tariffs was used as a wedge to "encourage" Nissan, Toyota, and Honda establish plants in the US but that's about it.

    Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars.

    I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it up." No doubt about that. I believe that this is what kept the Z car from being offered with upgraded equipment more than anything else.
    Last edited by Bambikiller240; 03-07-2005 at 01:32 AM.

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    Carl S wrote:
    >People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in
    >2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the
    >time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was
    >often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by
    >enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of
    >Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission
    >equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think
    >so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto
    >Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more
    >accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models.

    Hello Carl.
    You are of course correct, there were enthusiasts that wanted a 5spd. and of course, finding nothing else wrong with the 240-Z the automotive magazines writers did have to say something negative (just to appear balanced). Although I thought that the cheap diamond patterned vinyl provided them with something negative to say

    If the enthusiast wanted a 5spd. he had only to tell his Dealer. It was easily ordered through the Parts Dept. and easily installed by the Service Dept. A brand new 5spd. cost $375.00 in 1970/73. (of course you could change the gear sets as well). If you were poor.. you went to the junkyard and got one out of the 2000 roadster, then purchased the parts necessary to convert it to the Z from Datsun Competition and installed it yourself.) I know several of people that did that.... most simply changed the rear gear.

    Nonetheless the 240-Z really was aimed at a far larger market as you suggest. The 240Z was by design a "Sports/GT", not a pure "Sports Car" in the more British sense of the term. Nor was it strictly a "Grand Touring Car"... It was by design a well balanced combination of the two, that was intended to have far broader appeal than either individually.

    The 240-Z was aimed at putting traditionally American "non sports car buyers".. into their first Sports/GT. Mr. K didn't want to just capture market share in the Sports Car market.. he really wanted to greatly expand the market, to include new buyers. Mr. K wanted to sell Sports/GT's to people that had never bought them before.

    Most Americans didn't buy the traditional Sports Cars because they were for the most part underpowered, harsh riding and cramped. Coming from Great Britain, Italy and Germany they did not enjoy a reputation for quality nor reliability. They were all but strictly "enthusiast's" cars.

    The 240-Z was also aimed at gaining market share in the "Second Family Car" market here in the US. Much the same as many compact cars were at the time from the Big Three. You didn't "Sell" the "compacts" from Ford, GM, Chrysler as "Family Cars" (at least that was not how they trained you to sell them) ... you sold them as Second cars for the family. Believe me, I sold a ton of 240-Z's rationalized as the perfect second car for the family.. The 240-Z offered more "utility" than any mere sports car of the era.. and as much utility as a Pinto or Vega (hatch backs).. 95% of their time driving, Mom or Dad were in the car by themselves anyway, so a two passenger car made perfect sense as a second car. (please sign right here ...).

    Features and the benefits of them, had to be rationalized in the buyers mind, before they would sign on the dotted line... The 240-Z was loaded with features and benefits that made it easy to rationalize as the second family car. (a side benefit was it was COOL... and BEAUTIFUL...a more Positive Image for the driver and it offered Datsun reliability)

    Since I sold these cars for a couple years.. I can only tell you about our Customers... Most (75% or more) had never even considered buying a "Sports Car" before they saw the 240-Z.. they simply liked the looks of the 240-Z and it was in the price range of other cars they were looking at. Of our 151 Z Car Original Owners... only about 32 of them had owned a Sports Car before...

    The Z was everything the traditional sports car weren't. The Z was roomy, rode well on it's fully independent suspension, was powerful and smooth, and it had Datsun's reputation for reliability.

    We received maybe one out of 20 240-Z's with A/T... I don't know if that was typical or not. But it seemed to be. A few people simply had spouses that refused to drive a stick shift... so the compromise was the Z with an A/T. I do not recall any of my customers wishing for a 5spd. (some of the people I raced or autoX'ed with did).

    Carl S wrote:
    >It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were
    >coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different.
    >They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from
    >Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped
    >cars and considered them desirable.

    In a general sense I'd agree that the Baby Boomers were an important segment. More so for the influence they had on their parents. However, by it's original definition the Baby Boomers were born between 1948 and 1956..Now it seems to be defined as 1946 to 1962.. In 1970 the oldest Baby Boomer was 24 and not quite yet out of College.. or just out looking for a first job. They were also just the tip of the iceberg for the huge swelling of the population to follow. From 1970 to 1973 they really weren't that large a segment of the buyers.

    Most of the people that I sold 240-Z's too were between the ages of 28 to 38. Most(when I say most here I mean at least 80%) were married, most had at least one child. The vast majority had above average incomes, in the professions or trades (school teachers, engineers, architects, carpenters, draftsmen, contractors, small business owners etc.). I was 25 at the time, and I can tell you that I sold very few 240-Z's to people my age. Most people my age were buying 510's, 1200's and Pick-up's. (all below $2,500.00).

    For the most part my buyers were simply looking for something "special" to reward themselves with, while still making a rational purchase. I'd say that 95+% of them never raced, never auto-crossed, never used their Z as a "Sports Car". (just as 95+% of SUV never leave the paved highways).

    I would certainly agree that they were dissatisfied with the offering from Detroit at the time and they were looking for something "different".

    Carl S wrote:
    >I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese
    >auto imports to compete in North America."

    You are correct. In 1970/73 there were no tariffs on Japanese automobiles coming into the US. Protective tariffs were common in Europe, carried over from the reconstruction after WW-II. A tariff was later placed on "commercial vehicles".. which caught the Pick-up (so they were simply shipped without their bed, then "assembled in the USA")

    Carl S wrote:
    >Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when
    >the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars.

    Actually, the same process of market research that lead to the 240-Z for the US, also lead to the 280ZX for the US. While you and I didn't like it as much... the 280ZX sat new sales records. The Z evolved with the generation of people that originally purchased it. As they got older, the feedback they gave Nissan was that they wanted more luxury (power windows, power steering, cruise and GOOD A/C)... The mistake that Nissan made was not coming to market with another car that the younger generation wanted... to keep them in the Datsun/Nissan fold. Of course the other mistake was to change the Brand Name at the same time... da....

    I personally believe that if Mr. K had stayed in the US, those major mistakes would not have been made by Nissan.

    Carl S wrote:
    >I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6
    >month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it >up."

    I'd phrase that somewhat differently to reflect the actual situation. "When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you ARE producing what the customers want.. don't screw with it!!


    anyway, just my perspectives...
    kind regards,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon
    ...Regarding the numbers of cars based on reported serial numbers.

    Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

    As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.
    Hi Enrique,
    Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured in 1969. Correct?

    I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made the things ) and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars declared manufactured during the 1969. All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong.

    Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your leisure. I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site, and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist. The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me. Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter......

    As far as I am aware, zhome.com does not show any information on production quantities provided by Nissan Shatai, or from any Japanese government ministry ( I wonder if a Japanese ministry would have VIN number records for exported cars? ). It seems that the information on the "first 500" ( that's a nice round figure isn't it? ) HLS30-U models on zhome.com is compiled mainly from US-based sources, and somewhat anecdotally to boot. As a guide to what was received in the USA and Canada it may very well be a good source, but what was actually made in Japan could be another thing entirely.

    Regarding the figures from Nissan Shatai - these are the quantities that Nissan Shatai recorded that they manufactured. We don't have any 100% reliable information that indicates whether all of these cars were assigned a VIN number, or which of them actually made it into the ownership of a private individual ( although Kats has had a very valiant stab at deciphering the numbers for the "Export" cars quoted ).

    As for the 'Shatai Bango, Ichi Ran Hyo' figures submitted to the Japanese ministry by 'Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai', these relate to VIN numbers assigned to Japanese market vehicles, broken down by VIN prefix type and year of manufacture. Pull them apart at your leisure. As I pointed out when I posted them, they don't completely correspond with the Nissan Shatai figures but they DO purport to list actual VIN numbers stamped onto car bodies. They are better than nothing, and I think the 'truth' ( whatever that is ) probably lies in how the figures are deciphered and what is counted ( and not counted ) in the Nissan Shatai figures.

    If you want to argue that the figures I have posted could be incorrect, then you are welcome to make that observation. However, this thread was started in reference to the car wearing VIN number S30-00144 which is CERTAINLY one of more than 900 'S30' VIN prefixed cars to have been manufactured before the end of 1969, and was almost certainly manufactured during November of that year.

    Alan T.
    Last edited by HS30-H; 03-07-2005 at 01:00 PM.

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    Alan:

    Yes I was referring to the information you gave, not to question nor impugn it's validity, but so that a better clarification could be read and...in essence....stored for future reference within the same environment as it was discussed in....this forum.

    As you have sometimes pointed out, a large segment of the information available on the internet with regards to the Z, is truncated, non-verifiable, and sadly incomplete where it isn't conjecture. While it's easy to cast off the validity of Zhome due to inaccuracies that have been pointed out (the first 500), a point needs to be made that it gained it's reputation for being a fountain of knowledge because people passed it on as a reference for the material....BECAUSE THERE WERE NO OTHER SOURCES.

    As we have these "discussions", let's clarify to enhance the information available and try to maintain a better standard of information.

    In my opinion, your post is exactly what I enjoy about these discussions. It is informative, the information presented is self-supporting and what is more, is verifiable with the level of information given. That is what I think you would like Zhome to have, unfortunately not everyone has access to the data as you've had due to your job. (Wanna discuss Doors? That's what I sell.) So your reply was perfect!

    The only reason I commented was that at a manufacturing company I worked at years ago, the ONLY serial numbers assigned to ANY of the valves manufactured were given to those that were SHIPPED. Internal test, use or .... were not serialized at all. In the initial run-up of a valve specification, it wouldn't be unusual to see the first 100 or more, go to testing. These weren't serialized, except for the internal control marks. If we had serialized each one, the first one out the door might have had number 1234. In those situations, sometimes in the change over, (as the model valve was being superseeded) you would still have orders in house (being manufactured) for the model that was being replaced. Rather than count up the total of orders in house, orders in process, and orders being expected from existing quotes, a "range" of numbers would be tacked onto the "end" of the serial number.

    Simply put, we'd be up to number 4,567, and at a rough guess we could expect no more than 400 future valves to ship, so we'd "pad" the number to 5100, i.e. over 100 MORE than the actual run.

    We were interested in knowing approximately how many of those valves were out there so that we could supply replacement parts before we could rely on that model valve being gone from use and no longer require the spare parts inventory. The serial number gave us the product make-up based on when in the total manufacturing process it was made. Remember, as they went OUT the door they were serialized and not till then.

    I don't know the method by which Datsun measured their numbers. Since it involved automobiles, I presumed that their record controls would be much more stringent than ours were. As a result, when the numbers were "fuzzy", and based on my breadth of experience, I questioned whether they were production or posted (shipped, in my old job).

    Your post helps clarify that.

    Enrique

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    >Alan wrote:
    >Hi Enrique,
    >Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number
    >information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the
    >figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured
    >in 1969. Correct?
    >
    >I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made
    >the things )

    Hello Alan:
    Is what you supplied, related to the production numbers supplied by Nissan Shatai, something different than the picture of the Production Schedule supplied to Kats, and which he published on this forum in an earlier discussion? Did Nissan Shatai supply different information directly to you?

    >and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars
    >declared manufactured during the 1969.

    Reviewing the Posts.. I do not see any VIN numbers. Where did you put them? All I see is a reported total, broken down only into two categories... ie. the number of 432's and all other. Most certainly not a complete listing of VIN's.

    If I understood Enrique's post, that was what he was getting at.. we don't see a complete listing of VIN's released by the factory.

    For those following the thread, a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is comprised of two parts, the first being model information and the second being the chassis serial number..ie. HLS30 00500 would be a VIN.

    >All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first
    >posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market
    >during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong.

    Actually, if you want to get specific, it's you that are wrong. The statement was.."It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969."

    As written the statement is correct... the first 500 240-Z's as well as the first 300 or so Fairldays that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. The actual total numbers may have been higher... but the statement makes no reference to totals nor limits, minims nor maximums.

    The additional information related to the totals.. was interesting and IMHO should have been offered as "additional information", more so than a correction of wrong information.

    But then reviewing your Post... "All" of the numbers you Posted were most certainly NOT for JAPANESE market cars, as you also listed and commented on the "Export" numbers as well.

    >Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your
    >leisure.

    Yes, I invite everyone to do just that. Please see:
    http://zhome.com/History/69ZArticle.html

    Please define and report specifically any information there that is "inaccurate". Every effort has been made to report clearly what we actually find. Where the owners of these cars have allowed, we also list them with additional information on the Z Car Registers. There you find not only the VIN's, but the Date of Manufacture, the Original Engine Serial Number, the Owners and their e-mail addresses.

    Where you quote reported totals by categories for the JDM cars. We list the actual complete VIN's of the cars found to be still in existence. The title of the Article is; "Finding The Remaining 1969 Production Year 240-Z's"

    A brief review of the article will also show that I discuss the fact that VIN's above 00500 were found and are reported. Nonetheless, the statement "the first 500 Datsun 240Z's were produced in 1969 is still correct. Quite possible the number is something greater than that.. but as EScanlon pointed out.. we still do not know how many of the units shown on a Production Schedule, actually received chassis serial numbers. For that matter we do not know exactly when that picture was taken, nor if that is a forward forecast (which production schedules usually are) or documentation of actual units produced, or some combination of the two.

    >I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site,
    >and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist.

    As I have repeatedly told you Alan.. I personally have only a minor side interest in the JDM Nissan Fairladys. So I have absolutely no motivation to spend MY time publishing information just to please you. Quite frankly it's silly of you to expect me to.

    I told you honestly and forthrightly that in my opinion, and the opinions of most automotive historians the real story of the Z Car, is the story of the DATSUN 240-Z.

    The JDM Fairlady's are simply an interesting side note in the overall history of the Z Car. About 10% of the total, sold only in Japan, they represent a few additional sales of what was from the beginning intended by Nissan to be an Export model. (as were all Sports Cars from Nissan after WW-II).

    As I offered in our first e-mail exchange on this subject in Nov. of 2001, if you think the information is worth sharing with the Z Car Community, then write interesting articles, document the facts as best you can, .. and we would be glad to publish it on the Z Car Home Page. I'm sure many people would be interested. I'm always interested in learning more about them, just not interested in spending my time doing the research and documentation.

    All the information on the Z Car Home Page, intended to be shared with the Z Car Community, has been freely contributed by people with an interest in the subjects they research and write about.

    On average "the Z Car Home Page" is visited 45,000 times per month, and an average four different articles per visit are called upon. (numbers taken three years ago, before we removed the hit counters -I'm sure it has increased by now).

    Instead of constantly criticizing the work of others, bemoaning the fact that for 90% of us the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z's are simply an interesting side trip to our main interests in the Datsun 240-Z's that we own ... I'd suggest that if you actually want Fairlady Z information on the Z Car Home Page; you simply do the work that everyone else does. Write the articles, gather the pictures, encode the html formats and submit them.

    As I do exercise editorial control over the site, I will publicly state that I will be glad to publish well written and factual information related to the Fairlady Z's submitted by anyone willing to do the work.

    I will farther state that I will not support a wacked out opinion that Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, just got lucky with their Z Car and just happened to sell more than expected in the USA. Nor that the Z Car was actually intended to be anything other than an export model, aimed squarely at the US market. (as extensively documented by Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo themselves in numerous places).

    >The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject
    >under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me.

    I wouldn't expect it to be lost on you Alan, as you have now posted four off topic Posts to this thread yourself. The topic was a request for the value of one Fairlady Z located in the US... For that matter I haven't seen anyone answer the question in any specific manor.

    So I will, in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD.

    >Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being
    >very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter......

    Yes, if you disregard the original request .... which every one of your Posts, and most others including mine did.. ie. what is the car worth?... or where are links that I can find the information at??". I will grant that it is one of the few threads we see that "was" specifically about a Fairlady Z, even though it was about selling it ....

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Carl, you have got to be kidding about the value of this car. Here we have an extremely early Fairlady Z and you think it is worth what a normal 240z is worth in need of a restoration. That is absolute blasphemy! If this were a thread about an early 240z, people would be interested, but nowhere near as interested as people are SINCE it is a Fairlady Z. Get with the program; most people love Fairlady Zís. I prefer not to criticize people, but you have just put down everything that I believe in as far as Zís go. The difference between you and Alan, is that you get defensive and say that Fairlady Zís are an afterthought and that they donít matter because they were only sold in Japan. With Alan, it is clear that he has an interest for the home market cars, but he still talks with the utmost respect about export models.

    I have talked with Matsuo-san personally and he told me that the Z was meant to be a worldly car; one that would be acceptable in all countries. Thus, each export market had a slightly different variation. Where do you get that it was only intended for the US? It is very arrogant to say that. It is quite clear that the domestic market got the best of the variations. Not only did they get the best, but also, they got the most pure of them all. You know all the specifications; so I donít need to spoon-feed you which engines, bodies, and other options that the JDM cars have that make them SUPERIOR to the export cars.

    Your site has very little information on Fairlady Zís, and the information that it has seems as if it was extracted from Brian Longís book. It is sad that there is not a website (not forum) that is truly dedicated to the Fairlady Zís that is in English. We have all these Internet capabilities, yet most of the world outside Japan is still in the dark about these magnificent cars; I am still in the dark about them as I am learning slowly. Carl, you are a person with a wealth of knowledge on the subject of the early Zís, but it seems that you would not mind just ignoring everything Fairlady Z. You say you do not mind people posting on Zhome about JDM cars, but you are not very assuring.

    You also may argue about the early Works rally cars as being 240zís and not being home market cars, but they are much more of a 432-R body than a 240z.

    I love Zís in general, but I am most interested in Fairlady Zís as I strongly believe that they are the purist form of a Z. I donít think I will ever part with my 260z, but I plan that it will be my first and last export model. This is not only for my interests, but for the interests of others who like me, have been in the dark about Fairlady Zís.

    -Ben
    "A real sports car chooses its owner because it has a soul. If you're chosen, you'll love it, and the more it requires care and maintenance the more you love it." -Mr. Morita (Z432 owner)

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    Some people are taking this 240Z v.s Fairlady too seriously. Different versions of essentially the same car (S30). One "better" than the other? Better for what? For whom? What was deemed "better" by the factory (Nissan) for the various different selling markets may still apply. "Most" people love the _ _ _ _ _ _ version? Anything to back that up? Maybe the lack of an English language website about "these cars" indicates a relative lack of interest in them outside the home market? How many people outside the US are interested in Edsels, or Buicks? Enough to support a website about them written in Arabic?

    I think Mr. Beck encouraged people to provide data for publication on his website. It's (IMO) unreasonable to expect him to expend his time and effort on something that he doesn't wish to.

    Value of a JDM car (which located in the USA) that needs restoration may be compromised by the serious difficulty in finding parts to accomplish a proper resto on it. Look at how much trouble people have in sourcing parts for #0026/0027, and #0215 North American market cars (Chris' and Mark's cars)

    None of this is meant to devalue anyone's interest in any version of S30.
    Last edited by Bambikiller240; 03-08-2005 at 10:01 AM.

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    Y'all make me laugh. Thanks.

    A 1969 produced Fairlady - VIN 144 - in poor condition, not running, with floor and frame rail rust issues, requiring full restoration but quite salvageable is worth between $3,500 and $7,000 in the United States. It may be worth more on the East coast than the West coast, but it is only worth what someone is willing to pay and accept at any given time. Those numbers are close to what the last four double-digit VIN cars in comparable condition I have seen trade for. This Fairlady may very well start, but I am not under the impression that she is a driver. Princess 27 was a dead toad and I paid $2,350. Carl Beck, youíre dreaming! Nice condition drivable Fairladys have been selling in the high teens to low twenties over the last year-and-a-half.

    A buyer should expect to spend over $30,000 to restore the car to show condition and I will use the Vintage Z program quality as a guideline. Easily $30,000. The same car completed is worth $35,000 and up. If you all think I would part with my "common" low VIN cars after they are complete for anything less, you need to go home, close the doors and windows and have a good cry. The last few Vintage Zs have traded in the high $20s to low $30s.

    Chris
    Last edited by 26th-Z; 03-08-2005 at 10:25 AM.
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    Actually, I would have to agree with Carl's vauleation of this car. It was only late last year that another early Fairlady sold on eBay for about this...and we all know how people tend to over pay on eBay sometimes getting caught up in the excitement of the bidding.

    I also must agree with Bambi's statements about sourcing parts for a Fairlady restoration...personally I have a series I and find if VERY difficult to locate some parts for this car and it's a US market car.
    '70 240Z - HLS30-08215 - Production Date 8/70
    '70 240Z - HLS30-06293 - Rusty and has Identity Crisis (must have been wrecked and the back 1/2 sectioned in from a later car maybe even a 280Z)...PARTS CAR!
    '71 240Z - HLS30-018482 - Production Date 1/71,Corvette Yellow, driven under a 4Runner, bought for parts, hit lotto with parts on car, may fix and put back on road

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    ........ The last few Vintage Zs have traded in the high $20s to low $30s.

    Chris
    I'll skip comment on the rest of the post, but would you care to elaborate on the above quote? I've seen one V..... Zcar sell for mid $20's ($27K IIRC, and it was advertised for sale for years), and haven't seen or heard of ANY even approaching $30K in years.


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

    currently at $20.1K
    Last edited by Bambikiller240; 03-08-2005 at 10:44 AM.

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    Geez, I hope I didn't start a flame war....

    Two thoughts to the side of the topics in discussion:


    Let's not direct remarks about individual inaccuracies in prior postings, sites, memo's, books, etc. at INDIVIDUALS as being malicious or with malicious intent. I believe most of the inaccuracies that have been made regarding the Z, the Fairlady, the Z432R, the origins of the design, the authors of the original concept, the intended target market and others, are due to simple lack of adequate information having been handed out by Datsun/Nissan originally.

    That individuals in their altruistic fervor to compile information into one source inadvertently received bad information that was then posted, does NOT imply that they willingly and knowingly posted bad information.

    When someone comes along and points out the inaccuracies, or omissions, or ..., then it is perfectly natural to question the credentials of the individual making those allegations.

    Questioning that individual's reputation is not intended to malign that reputation, nor should it be considered a slur. It is perfectly reasonable to ask "And WHO are you?" when challenged with the statement "What you **** is wrong!". To respond antagonistically when challenged begets the doubt in accepting the answer and/or credentials.

    So let's discuss the inaccuracies, and correct as many as we can, by re-posting here, or by posting links, or by whatever level of verification is generally felt to be needed. It is the BLIND acceptance of items that leads us to argue the validity of them. Failing to challenge something, because of perceived "taboo's", (don't want to insult, social pressure, etc.) is why a lot of information is written inaccurately.

    As a group, those of us who are most interested in origins, details, numbers, etc. need to have these discussions, so that we may hopefully eliminate omissions, and correct inaccuracies. Let's not point fingers and call names, let's go forward from here and fill in where others haven't.

    =======

    In discussing the WHY's, "How come?", WHERE etc of humans, especially when relating to things that happened in the past, it is imperative that the look back not don the rose-colored glasses that living in the present can give you.

    Case in point; Hitler is pretty much viewed as the epitome of human evil. If in examining Germany and it's society during the 1930's you make assumptions as to why something happened during that time, biased by your dislike for Hitler, then you will have made a gross error.

    During that time frame, Germany saw Hitler in a totally favorable and acceptable light. Let's not quibble over small items, the fact is that he was first ELECTED to his position in government. That he moved up in the government is atributable to his evil, but not that the society as a whole KNEW he was evil and did nothing. Many of them felt extremely let down when the truth came out.

    With that thought in mind, in hindsight, it is easy to presume that since the Z sold so well in the U.S., that it was destined for it's market. That they TARGETED our market, in those days, was a given. The U.S. market at that time was one of the most desired, profitable, and burgeoning markets in the world. Of course you'd want to be involved. That the car was also sold in other markets, with some features added to improve it's appeal to those markets, is simple marketing.

    You can't sell shaved ice in Alaska during winter, but add flavored sugar syrup, and now it's a Sno-Cone, and some kid's going to want one. However, shaved ice in Acapulco is used by the ton to cool shrimp, fish, salads, etc. That you can also find a Sno-Cone in Acapulco is because that is also a sellable product in that market.

    Trying to determine the reason some items were offered and not, is something that was very much determined by the level of sophistication in that market AND it's acceptance of that product.

    An aboriginal tribe in the depths of the Amazonian Jungle, will assign God status to the first man that shows them a cigarette lighter. To them, he will have just performed a miracle. Once they've been exposed to, and used, matches, recognizing them as a man-made product, then introducing the lighter would generate interest, but not wonder at the new miracle. Conversely, if disposable lighters were first introduced to them, then who in that market would want to buy matches when they get introduced later?

    That the U.S. did not receive 5 speed gear boxes when the car was first being introduced, regardless that other markets did have that option, was because those who were electing to market the car in the U.S., felt that the market might not understand, appreciate (as in assigning a $ value to) and most important of all, accept those additional features.

    The bottom line in discussing what would or would not have been sold has to rely on one very distinct Sales Axiom: You can't sell something to someone who is NOT willing to buy.

    If you look back at the archives of magazines you may have in your garage. Look through the advertising, you'll find very few ads for Japanese vehicles. You will also notice that the average American car that was being offered, was NOT the compact, lightweight, gas-economizing, performance tuned, sports-car. Yes, there were vehicles in that category, but they were seen as minor off-shoots of the main market.

    The "AVERAGE" vehicle, if it could be described, was a big heavy, gas-guzzling, pleasure-cruise BOAT of a car. That's what the U.S. "Baby Boomers" were buying, because as a group, they were into their early "Family" phase. Yes there were individuals ahead of that curve, and others who've lagged behind, and they comprised the sales of the sub-market off-shoots, but the main part of the bell curve was buying family rigs.

    {for those of you outside the U.S., the Baby Boomers generally defines people born during the "Baby Boom" experienced after WWII and Korea.}

    Datsun very bravely entered the U.S. market with it's original inexpensive Bluebird cars and trucks, then the Fairlady Roadsters and sold some, and then gambled on a bigger slice with the Z is because of the growing acceptance of Japanese products by the American public. One of the reasons Honda entered the automobile market in the U.S., was probably due to the growing market share that Datsun was beginning to enjoy. However, if anyone recalls the original Civic, you'll recall that it was basically a motorcycle with a passenger compartment. It wasn't till much later that it's sales took off.

    The American public, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, as a general statement of the group, did not feel the need to buy something smaller, lighter, and most importantly essentially, a simplified version of their automotatic behemoths. That a few individuals out of the group whole, went against that generalized trend, neither contradicts nor belies the trend of the group as a whole.

    The cost of manpower difference between U.S. manufacturer's vs Japanese manufacturers was a chasm so deep as to be called an abyss. Japanese manufacturers could literally sell for pennies on the dollar the labor invested in their car, and still make a profit. The U.S. government did in fact step in and impose tariffs, import quotas, and import duties on the vehicles being brought in, specifically targeted to the Japanese car manufacturers because of these differences.

    Check the old magazines again and you'll find numerous articles on how the govt. was working to "protect" Detroit and it's ramnifications.

    Many of those same obstacles to market were still in place when the Gas Shortage that was experienced in the U.S. rocketed the price of fuel to the point where the public felt a need to search for alternatives to expending gas frivolously.

    That is one of the poignant reasons that more fuel efficient and inherent in their design, smaller and lighter vehicles began to sell well. At that point in time, the market changed.

    IF THE MARKET HADN'T CHANGED, THE Z MAY HAVE BEEN ANOTHER ROADSTER, RENAULT LeCar, OR ANY OF THE OTHER VEHICLES THAT NEVER SOLD WELL IN THE U.S. OR ANYWHERE.

    That the market did change, is where we Z lover's benefited. Talk to a Roadster owner and ask him about the availability of parts, bemoaning the Z's lack of OEM parts, and the need for aftermarket stock replacements, and you'll discover that aftermarket reproductions are very commonly used. OEM parts were scarce to begin with, because of the lack of sales, and now they're virtually gone. The Z has the luxury of sometimes finding donor cars in bone-yards, the typical Roadster in the bone-yard is usually a candidate for restoration. Yes, this is slightly exagerated but my point applies.

    With the hindsight afforded to us by time and our love for the Z, it's easy to assign ulterior motives and otherwise denigrate the perceived lack of features, options and lack of product as malignant, when in fact, at that point in time, they were hoping that their marketing gamble would succeed.

    However, that in later periods they did not address the lack of those features, products and options etc, is either ignorant arrogance, or a failure to recognize potential. Then again, it might be as simple as a company experiencing exponential growth that exceeded careful monitoring and cultivated control.


    Enrique

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    Carl, can you explain the idea that Fairladys were not produced until Jan 1970?

    It has been stated that the first run of the 240z are sometimes found to be titled as 1969 because of the sales date, even though its a 1970 model, WHY ? Because they were sold/ titled in late 1969.



    I see the same situation here .The date on this title was simply transfered from the first title. If the car was produced, titled and sold in 1970 why would it ever be titled as a 1969? If it was a Jan 1970 or later build it would have been titled as a 1970.


    This car only had two owners, a former USAF Officer ( passed on) and it second owner, another USAF Officer. Since the first is no longer with us I have to go on the accounts of my father, the second owner. He told me the car was first purchased before Christmas in 1969 as a present for the late officers wife while stationed in japan.

    The above information would tend to support that belief that the first Fairladys were being produced along side of the 240Z in late 1969.
    Last edited by NovaSS; 03-08-2005 at 12:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaSS
    The date on this title was simply transfered from the first title. If the car was produced, titled and sold in 1970 why would it ever be titled as a 1969?
    I wouldn't necessarily consider the title to be authoritative. For instance, the title on my car lists it as a 4-cylinder. I suspect some ignorant DMV worker just assumed that because it was a Japanese car.

    The fact that your car has a specific VIN and a specific manufacture date is good enough. After all the so-called year of the car is somewhat arbitrary. We know that there were overlaps during the transition periods between model year.
    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW
    I wouldn't necessarily consider the title to be authoritative. For instance, the title on my car lists it as a 4-cylinder. I suspect some ignorant DMV worker just assumed that because it was a Japanese car.

    The fact that your car has a specific VIN and a specific manufacture date is good enough. After all the so-called year of the car is somewhat arbitrary. We know that there were overlaps during the transition periods between model year.

    My 65 Nova is titled as a 64, based on its first date of sale, ( and the fact that the car physiclay existed in 1964) I just have never heard of it being done in reverse.

    No big deal realy. Carl says its worth $500.00 , I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much. Guess Ill give it the pro street treatment, how many RHD tubed fairladys are there anyway?
    Last edited by NovaSS; 03-08-2005 at 01:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaSS
    No big deal realy. Carl says its worth $500.00 , I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much. Guess Ill give it the pro street treatment, how many RHD tubed fairladys are there anyway?
    Well, that may be what Carl is willing to pay so that's what it's worth to him. Some might be willing to pay more; others less. Perhaps the best way to determine a true market value of something is to just put it on eBay and see how high people are willing to go.

    Your second sentence above seems intended to provoke a reaction out of people. It's your car and you are free to do with it as you like.
    -Mike
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    A car is normally titled according to the original MSO.

    Vicky
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW
    Well, that may be what Carl is willing to pay so that's what it's worth to him. Some might be willing to pay more; others less. Perhaps the best way to determine a true market value of something is to just put it on eBay and see how high people are willing to go.

    Your second sentence above seems intended to provoke a reaction out of people. It's your car and you are free to do with it as you like.
    I just felt that the valve statted ( $500.00 ) was as realsitc as my desire to destroy it. ( by cutting it up.) I was being a smart ass.

    All honesty I dont want to sell it, I want to restore it. I know the cost involved, $15,000-20,000 as I have restored a couple cars already. I just have to prepare my self if it has to go I want a fair price and want it to go to someone who will give it a good home.

    I dont care if its a classic, rare or just another car. I Like it and thats all thats important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon
    Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

    As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.
    Hi Enrique,
    Your full post was very interesting and thoughfully put together, but do you mind if I concentrate my answer mainly on that part of it which I quote above?

    My first post on this thread ( I think it was post #11 on the thread ) contained information from two sources in Japan regarding reported production quantities and chassis numbers ( 'Shatai Bango' in Japanese ) for the 1969 Japanese market Z cars. I posted this information firstly to correct the statement made by NovaSS that "300 or so" Fairladies were made in 1969 ( I think he actually wrote "300 or so Fairladies that stayed in Japan" ), and secondly to BACK UP his assertion that his car was manufactured in November 1969.

    As you may know, our friend Kats visited some staff members of Nissan Shatai last year, and they gave him some copies of production records that contained details of both "Export" and "Domestic" S30-series Z cars that had been produced by Nissan Shatai during the 1969 and 1970 calendar years ( they are broken down by calendar years ). We have discussed these on this site on several previous threads, and they seem worthy of being taken seriously. Kats e-mailed copies to me, and - the World being small as it is - I also received copies from mutual friends in Japan.
    I stress, they apparently record the quantity of bodies / cars that Nissan Shatai made during the period recorded. It is still not clear exactly how many of these bodies / cars were assigned a series production chassis number ( "Shatai Bango" ) and how many of them were NOT sold to the General Public. We have also discussed this and other related points at length. Please note that they list Z car production broken down into just TWO types - namely "Domestic" and "Export" versions. As far as the 1969 calendar year goes, I would take that to mean 'S30' and 'PS30' prefixed models for 'Domestic' and 'HLS30' and - arguably - 'HS30' for the 'Export' types. If Nissan Shatai made even one 'Export' HS30 during 1969, then I think we should count it.

    The second set of figures I posted were taken from documents supplied to me personally as a member of "CLUB S30" of Japan. These are a list of chassis numbers ( 'Shatai Bango' ) recorded as issued to cars by the manufacturer, and reported to official Japanese ministries by the "Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai" ( my translation - take it how you will - would be 'Japanese Auto Manufacturers Association' ).
    These figures apparently list the 'Shatai Bangos' issued to Japanese DOMESTIC market models during the period they cover, broken down by VIN prefix type ( S30, PS30, HS30, GS30 etc etc ) and by calendar year. For example, in year 1969 they list 'S30' VIN numbers from 'S30-00001' through to 'S30-00953' INCLUSIVE as having been issued. That's 953 bodies / cars.
    Note that they DO NOT cover 'Export' models.

    I made the point that the Nissan Shatai numbers and the Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai numbers do not add up to the same total. I also made the point that it might be possible to explain this if you take into account that they essentially list quantities under different criteria ( one is 'bodies made', and one is 'bodies / cars issued with a 'Shatai Bango' ( serial VIN number ).

    Everybody is free to poke holes in these figures at their leisure, but I would remind everyone that they are arguably more credible than those published in a piece of Nissan advertising / coffee table book, published retrospectively ( as repeated and known to be total nonsense on zhome.com under the heading "Production Figures" at zhome.com/History/zproduction.html )
    The Japanese lists are compiled from records filed AT THE TIME ( at the end of each calendar year ).

    If anyone wants to argue that NovaSS's car ( S30-00144 ) was NOT made in November 1969, then bring it on. I'll argue the case most strongly FOR.

    I hope it is now clear WHAT those figures are, WHERE they came from, and WHY I posted them.

    Alan T.
    Edit: sorry - can't insert hyperlink
    Last edited by HS30-H; 03-08-2005 at 03:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaSS
    I just have to prepare my self if it has to go I want a fair price and want it to go to someone who will give it a good home.

    I dont care if its a classic, rare or just another car. I Like it and thats all thats important.
    I don't think getting a fair price will be a problem considering that a number of people here have already expressed a keen interest in the car and are the kinds of people who would, in fact, attempt a proper restoration. That's what I would call a good home.

    As others have mentioned, finding proper parts for the earliest Z cars can be a real problem. Trying to restore your car here in the US will be even more difficult given the fact that it's a JDM RHD car (those parts just aren't available here like they would be in Japan) and that fact that RHD cars we produced in smaller numbers in general. I may well be wrong here but I'm assuming that the overall parts supply is directly proportional to the number of cars produced of a given model and with older cars being more difficult to source than newer cars.

    Also, notice that member "kats" is doing a very thorough restoration of a LHD car in Japan and has access to many of the original Nissan executives. Even he is having difficulty finding certain "proper" parts:

    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/working.html
    -Mike
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    Hi NovaSS:
    First let me say that I'm a bit confused by the title. I thought you were Mike Harris, and that we had exchanged information about this specific car when we registered it on the Fairlady Z Register at Z Home some years ago... yet the title shows W. A. Robert jr.

    OK now to your questions:
    You wrote:
    >Carl, can you explain the idea that Fairladys were not produced until Jan 1970?
    >

    Nope, I can't explain it.

    I believe that you might be confusing the Datsun 240-Z with the Nissan Fairlady Z.

    I never stated, nor implied that Nissan Fairlady Zs were not produced in 1969. Indeed if you review Z Home you will see articles there on the Z 432's stating they were shown at the first auto show in 1969.

    If you review the Fairlady Z Register on the Z Car Home Page, you'll see your car listed there with Model Year of 1969... (it's been there since May of 2000).

    I have stated that there were no Right Hand Drive DATSUN 240-Z's produced in 1969. That was based on many facts, not the least of which is the fact that the lowest VIN sold to the public, that we have found and verified, for the RHD 240Z's is HS30 00004 in Australia. I have communicated extensively with the person that inspected it in 1970, then later bought and restored it. He and I are in full agreement that the car was most likely produced in late Jan. or early Feb. of 1970, based on his known history of the car, his farther research and documentation etc. (we could not verify in any way the HS30 00003 that was on ebay).

    Having seen HS30 240-Z's with VIN's of HS30 00350 and above, advertised as 1969 Production Year cars... I've tried to inform people that the sellers of these cars are mistaken. I believe both buyers and sellers want honest information. It was a common mistake based on previously confused information. (thinking that the HS and HLS series cars shared a common sequence of serial numbers... which they did not).

    >It has been stated that the first run of the 240z are sometimes found to
    >be titled as 1969 because of the sales date, even though its a 1970 model,
    >WHY ? Because they were sold/ titled in late 1969.

    I do not know where it has been quite stated that way. It has been stated by me that the some of the Datsun 240-Z's produced in 1969 were titled as 1969 Datsun 240's. Not because of their sale date, but rather because of their date of manufacture listed on their Manufacture's Statement Of Orign (MSO's).

    In 1969/70 it was common practice in many countries to keep "Model Year" the same as "Production Year". Thus their cars produced in 1965 were sold as 1965 Models, their cars produced in 1966 were sold as 1966 Models etc. (makes logical sense).

    The US was one of the few counties that brought new Model Year cars to market ahead of the beginning of the calendar year. So here in the US you could by a 1966 Chevy/Ford in Sept of 1965 or later.

    Titles for automobiles are issued by the individual States here in the US ... so the Selling Dealers have only a Manufactures Statement Of Origin (MSO) to start the process of applying to the State they are in, for an automotive title to be issued, which is then transferred to the buyer upon the sale. (in many countries this is handled at the Federal level).

    Many Foreign Car Dealers here in the US, followed the practice of their Manufacturer's Countries when designating the "Model Year" of the cars they sold. So when applying for a State Title, they listed the "Model Year" as being the same as the Date Of Manufacture given on the MSO.

    At about 1969/1970 with the increased competition of imports gaining market share, and therefore attracting ever more and more buyers that did not normally buy foreign cars.. The Dealers realized that by the time they received their "new" Models... it was Feb or March of the Calendar Year (due to release in Jan. and shipping times from the overseas factories), and they were now five to six months behind the US models coming to market..In turn the Customers expected significant discounts, as in their minds half the model year had already passed, and the domestic dealers were already discounting the "new" models.

    Nissan and their Dealers realized this just like all other major importers. So in the late 60's they started shifting their production schedules, and releasing their new models earlier, year by year.

    Being a completely new model, you can see from the schedule that Kats provided that the 1970 Model Year Z's actually started serious production in Oct. of 1969. (not uncommon for a completely new model start up) Once full production of the cars was rolling, you will note that the 1971 Model Year (the late model year) Series II Z's started production in Jan. of 1971. This was normal practice. ...But the Series III Z's (1972 Model Year) started production in 08/71. From that point forward Nissan and most other Manufactures outside the US shifted their production schedules to keep their Model Years, in line with the US Model Introductions.

    While all this was first happening around 1969/70, the Authorize Foreign Car Dealers were in many cases were a few months behind, so they continued business as usual (keeping Model Year the same as the Date of Manufacture) Once they saw the shift taking place.. most fell in line with it and started selling the cars they received in Sept. as their "New Models" and titling them as such. Which State Laws allowed them to do.

    Because this was not a coordinated change, you see today that we have a large overlap in the VIN's of the Series I Z's.. some being titled as 1970 and some being titled as 1971 Model Year cars. (this may be where you saw model year determined by Date Of Sale?? ie.. cars sold after 1 Sept. 1970 were mostly titled as 1971 Model Year cars.)

    This situation was ended when the Federal Emissions and Safety Standards started to drive new requirements, year by year in 1971/72. Now it would be against the Federal Law to sell a 1971 240-Z as a 1972 Model Year... even if they were identical in build, as cars are certified with the Feds year by year now.

    It would not surprise me that when your Fairlady was brought back to the States, the title clerk at the local DMV, took the Date Of Manufacture off the paperwork, and applied it as the Model Year (common practice for imported cars back then).

    The Dealer that originally sold HLS30 00020 titled it as a 1969 Datsun 240, I suppose in keeping with the then common practice, and it is still titled/registered that way today. You will notice that I did not question your Fairlady being a titled as a 1969 Model....

    anyway, hope that answers your questions.
    kind regards,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Hello Alan:
    Is what you supplied, related to the production numbers supplied by Nissan Shatai, something different than the picture of the Production Schedule supplied to Kats, and which he published on this forum in an earlier discussion? Did Nissan Shatai supply different information directly to you?
    Nope ( see my previous post ). I got the same set of figures that you ( presumably ) got, but through several different sources, including a direct e-mail from Kats ( thanks Kats ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Reviewing the Posts.. I do not see any VIN numbers. Where did you put them? All I see is a reported total, broken down only into two categories... ie. the number of 432's and all other. Most certainly not a complete listing of VIN's.
    Ah, that will be the famous 'Beck Patent Blinkers' in full effect. You are trying to make a silly semantic point by pretending to be Mr Magoo again.

    To refresh, I quoted ( for 1969 calendar year production ):
    *S30 ( Fairlady Z & Fairlady Z-L ) = Chassis Numbers S30-00001~00953
    *PS30 ( Fairlady Z432 & Fairlady Z432-R ) = Chassis Numbers PS30-00001~00072

    For my used term "Chassis Numbers" - please note that I am referring to the body serial number and model variant type combination, as stamped into the firewall sheet metal, and stamped into the plate affixed in the engine bay. No doubt you will want to re-educate me as to what I should be calling this according to your personal interpretation ( biased heavily by customs in your home country, just like I am ), but as we are essentially discussing JAPANESE domestic models here, lets nip that in the bud and let ME tell YOU that I am talking about 'Shatai Bango' - OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    If I understood Enrique's post, that was what he was getting at.. we don't see a complete listing of VIN's released by the factory.
    For those following the thread, a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is comprised of two parts, the first being model information and the second being the chassis serial number..ie. HLS30 00500 would be a VIN.
    See above. You want me to list them one by one for you? S30-00001, S30-00002, S30-00003, S30-00004 de da de da de da.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Actually, if you want to get specific, it's you that are wrong. The statement was.."It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969."

    As written the statement is correct... the first 500 240-Z's as well as the first 300 or so Fairldays that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. The actual total numbers may have been higher... but the statement makes no reference to totals nor limits, minims nor maximums.
    You see why I love you so much? Its because you come up with nonsense like this in an effort to destroy what you don't agree with. Over 900 Fairladies were made before the end of 1969. Just how is saying that the "the first 300 or so Fairladies that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969" an accurate representation of the truth, let alone what was actually meant by NovaSS ( and which he confirmed in a subsequent post )? You really are the ultimate twister. Did you work as a speech writer for Tricky ****y Nixon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    But then reviewing your Post... "All" of the numbers you Posted were most certainly NOT for JAPANESE market cars, as you also listed and commented on the "Export" numbers as well.
    I compared figures to 'Export' models in the Nissan Shatai figures for good reason. You obviously don't want to understand why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck - commenting on data published on zhome.com
    Please define and report specifically any information there that is "inaccurate". Every effort has been made to report clearly what we actually find. Where the owners of these cars have allowed, we also list them with additional information on the Z Car Registers. There you find not only the VIN's, but the Date of Manufacture, the Original Engine Serial Number, the Owners and their e-mail addresses.
    Well the "first 500" seems to be an arbitrary figure for a start, but you know damn well that it would be too long-winded and time-consuming to pinpoint anomalies one-by-one and then argue them through with you. I've been there before. Let's just say that my gripes with your site ( and you know what I mean by 'your' ) on the subject of its one way street view, and America Uber Alles stance ( summed up by the banner at the top of the home page - which I note you have corrected the spelling mistakes in since I pointed them out to you ) are well known to you. I can sum up the mindset of the site by pointing at title headings such as "Z Production" and "The True History of the Z Car", when in fact it would more accurately be "HLS30-U Production" and "The True History of the HLS30-U" etc etc etc. And you know what I'm talking about, and you know that I know why you do it.

    I'm NOT talking about the registers of early cars / original owners and the data supplied by owners - which I think is an admirable project worthy of praise by all. So stop trying to twist it.

    Tea break. I'm going to put the kettle on. There will now be a brief intermission. Popcorn, choc ices and Acapulco Sno-Cones will be available in the Foyer. What flavour would you like, Enrique?

    Alan T.

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    Yes the title says. W A Robert, he is my father. ( nothing like an USAF Officer with the initals of W.A.R. ) My real name is Mike Harris AKA Nova SS. I moderate over at Steves Nova Site,(www.stevesnovasite.com) the most active Nova board on the net.

    I have not yet transfered the car into my name as I waiting to see if I have to sell it or keep it.

    I would like to thank ALL of you guys for all the information requarding the early Z cars. Everyone has made a postive contribution, even if there is some disagrement on some minor issues. I now have a better basic understanding of what the gentlemen a Datsun went through to get this car on the road.

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    "I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much."($500)


    Somebody got a deal!

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ADME:B:EF:US:1
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 03-08-2005 at 04:33 PM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    NovaSS wrote:
    > ...snipped.
    >.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ...

    Hi NovaSS:
    I know you just may be razzing me.. but actually I intentionally did NOT say "it was worth $500.00".

    More correctly I said..." in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD".

    You ask for our thoughts, and I gave you my honest opinion. I did not assign a "worth" to the car, rather what I believe would be the range within the market at which it would actually sell.

    I felt it was better to arm you with what I felt was the truth.. than to let you keep it until you actually needed the money, only then to find out you couldn't sell it for as much as you had hoped or others hand thought.

    As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. I can not see anyone paying the mid point of Chris valuation..$5,250.00 for your Z, when for the same money they could buy an easily restorable, solid bodied Z. Supply/demand and market competition for few buyer dollars...

    Chris said he paid $2350.00 for #27... also with extensive rust damage. But Chris also received hard to find new OEM parts with the car - IMO well worth $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on ebay. Parts which he could apply directly to his #26. Also the brag factor of having sequential serial numbers is well worth a few hundred bucks to any of us.. deduct the value of the new parts and what did he really pay for the car?

    It is also possible that someone out there desperately needs some parts off that car.. and at the same time winds up bidding against another equally desperate and determined bidder on ebay.. it's possible.. but I believe not really probable. Put it on ebay with a reserve of $5,100.00 and if it doesn't bring that.. sell it to Chris.


    Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market...
    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    NovaSS wrote:
    > ...snipped.
    >.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ...

    As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market...
    FWIW,
    Carl
    Carl,
    Could you please direct me to this car? Direct info to: Volgolf@aol.com

    David Spillman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    I have stated that there were no Right Hand Drive DATSUN 240-Z's produced in 1969.

    That was based on many facts, not the least of which is the fact that the lowest VIN sold to the public, that we have found and verified, for the RHD 240Z's is HS30 00004 in Australia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck, on zhome.com, in an article named "The 69 Z Cars"
    #HLS30 00016 was the lowest VIN 240Z sold to the Pubic. It is still driven by it's second owner today in the Tampa Bay area of Florida, USA.
    Er, so its 'HS30-00004' that is the 'lowest VIN' 240Z 'sold to the public' that you have found and verified. Correct?

    See what I mean? Hoist by your own petard, Sir.

    So you think your conclusion that 'HS30-00004'
    was manufactured in January 1970 proves that 'HS30-00001', 'HS30-00002' & 'HS30-00003' were also not made in 1969 ( presuming that they ever actually existed )? You are willing to be very definite in your views on this, but it seems to me that you have less than enough evidence to prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    I believe that you might be confusing the Datsun 240-Z with the Nissan Fairlady Z.

    I never stated, nor implied that Nissan Fairlady Zs were not produced in 1969. Indeed if you review Z Home you will see articles there on the Z 432's stating they were shown at the first auto show in 1969.
    I believe that you might be under the impression that the '240Z' ( er, which model of 240Z? ) is not a member of the "S30 Model Series" of Z cars. In which case you had better inform Nissan, as they seem to disagree with you.

    So its OK for S30-S and S30 models of Fairlady Z to be lumped in with the PS30 and PS30-SB Fairlady Z ( despite their different prefixes and model variant names ) but not correct to include the '240Z' ( again, which one? ) in that group? Ah, must be the Beck Filing System at work.

    I remind you that the blue HLS30-U model '240Z' displayed at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show was wearing all its 'Datsun 240Z' emblems, but was wearing a sign in place of its number plates that read "Fairlady Z - Export Model". As I have noted so many times before, you seem to be in total denial that the '240Z' ( for all territories ) was part of a range or family of cars that was covered by the appelation 'Model S30 Series'. Accepting that plain truth will not diminish the '240Z' in any way. Why can't you see it?

    I attach a scan from a Nissan factory parts manual for you. If you tell me that it is incorrect in the data it portrays, then it also calls into doubt the data published in the corresponding North American market parts manuals, does it not?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Now that NovaSSS might keep the car, I can say this safely.. Don't sell too low. The sum of it parts are worth far more. The fender mirrors alone are one hot item. I could not make out the detail of the dash, but if it was fitted with the Rallye clock (sweep second hand, adustable bezel), then the clock and it's associated control box is very valuable (to me!). There may be other option items that were only availible on JDM cars, as well as many standard items (jdm standard items) being coveted by restorers and general fanatics (again me). I'd fork over a few bengimins for the early 5 speed (as a roadster owner, I collect them). Those wheels look very close to a rare Brittish circa 1967 wheel set (look for a "100+" marking), that are again quite valuable. If you decide to restore it... BLESS YOU! If you sell, know what your selling before you start.
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    Ben wrote:
    >...snipped...
    >I have talked with Matsuo-san personally and he told me that the Z was meant
    >to be a worldly car; one that would be acceptable in all countries. Thus, each
    >export market had a slightly different variation. Where do you get that it was
    >only intended for the US? It is very arrogant to say that.

    Hi Ben:
    I do not believe that I have ever said it was "ONLY" intended for the US. I said it was specifically designed for the US. As such, variations of that core design were pretty easily accommodated for sales almost anywhere in the world.

    I am sure that during the design process, considerations were made to offer the car in both Right and Left Hand Drive configurations. I'm also sure that during the design process and the production engineering process several variations were anticipated.

    No doubt in my mind that Nissan wanted to sell a few into their home market. There is also no doubt in my mind that Nissan Management felt there was only a very limited market in Japan for any Sports Cars. From the early 50's Nissan Management felt that sports cars were intended for their export markets. (this is written about almost everywhere you search for Datsun/Nissan Corporate history)

    I do get the impression that the Z Car was "specifically" designed for the US Market, based mainly on the thoughtful writings, and public speeches of the two men most directly involved. Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo.

    I too have personally meet both of them and talked to them. Mr. Matuso only briefly at Mr. K's induction into the American Automobile Hall Of Fame. (arrogant as we Americans are..we put the U.S. head of a Japanese Automobile Company in our Hall Of Fame!! While his kind hearted Management, at Nissan Corporate Japan, tried to shuffle him off into obscurity by forced retirement).

    Combine Mr K and Mr Matsuo's words (quoted below FYI ) with the fact that aprox. 148,000 Datsun 240-Zs were sent to the USA (aprox. 160,000 to North America including Canada's 11,198 units ) while aprox. 5300 were sent to all other Countries in the world combined. (Australia 2358, GB 1929, Germany 112, Holland 232 and France 672). #Figures from Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, as published in their 280ZX Book.

    160,000 to 5300. Doesn't look like a "World Car" to me. As a matter of fact, it was designing and building "world cars" that contributed to Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan going all but broke and being taken over by Renault. That is one of the reasons I refuse to refer to the Z Car as a "world car". It most certainly was not.

    The single most significant factor that made the Datsun 240-Z one of the ten most important cars in US Automotive History.. is the fact that Nissan changed their design paradigm way back in 1967, when instead of designing cars for their domestic market and exporting a few for extra sales, they focused on designing cars for the specific customers in the specific export market they wanted to sell into. The key here is the word "Customers" what the Customers in that market expected in an automobile and what the Customers wanted.

    In 1970 that was primarily the US market and American Customer expectations. Nissan Motors USA did extensive market research and Mr. K insisted that Nissan Japan build cars specifically for his American Customers. (unlike all other foreign sports car manufacturers at the time).

    IMHO to infer other wise, to argue that the DATSUN 240-Z wasn't aimed specifically and squarely at American consumers, wasn't designed specifically for the American market -- is to loose site of the single most important part of the Z Car Story.

    Successful sales alone, do not add up to becoming one of the ten most important cars in US Automotive History. Mr, K wasn't inducted into the Automobile Hall of Fame simply because he became the head of a Japanese Auto Manufacturers Subsidiary here in the US and sold lots of cars.

    The story of the Z Car is about the paradigm shift in how foreign automobile manufactures designed and marketed cars in the US... about how that paradigm shift impacted the entire US Automotive Market... and then the worlds automotive market.

    FYI
    The following as Reprinted in John B. Rae's "NISSAN/DATSUN A history of Nissan Motor Corporation USA 1960 to 1980 (authorized by Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan).

    At the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z in Oct. of 1969, Yutaka Katayama said to the employees of Nissan Motors USA the following:

    - - Quote Mr. Katayama - ---
    With the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z, Nissan will have enjoyed the accomplishment of covering the American market from the Pickup to the Personal Sports Car.

    We are proud to have been able to cover all purposes of motor car use, and for our Datsun dealer network, the new 240-Z affords an opportunity to create an exciting new image.

    240-Z represents the imaginative spirit of Nissan, and was designed to please a demanding taste that is strictly American. It meets all the requirements of sports-minded drivers, fulfilling their desire for superb styling, power and safety; and provides them with the most thrilling, and enjoyable ride available in any car."

    Our new product reflects the rapid advancement of our company, and its development will be unique in automobile history. We have studied the memorable artistry of European coachmakers and engine builders and combined our knowledge with Japanese craftsmanship. The result is an exotic, high performance car exclusively for America.
    It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute.

    We adopt this new 240-Z as an aggressive innovation in automobile building and take pride in having been totally responsible for its concept.

    Nissan offers this spirited car with affection - its heart is Japan and the soul is American.

    = = = = = = .....end quote...... = = = = = =


    I would say that is pretty straight forward and pretty definitive language from the Father of the Z Car, who fully understood what had been accomplished. No sales or advertising hype.. he was talking to the Nissan employees honestly from his heart.

    If both men say it was designed specifically for American and Nissan Motors shipped 90% of them here, I'll take their written words and actions for it. Quite frankly I see no rational basis to dispute it.

    See Mr. Matsuo's words in the next Post..
    Carl

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    Hi Ben:
    FYI - just in case you don't have the book..

    = = == Quoted From the book Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama wrote; "FAIRLADY STORY DATSUN SP/SR & Z", and as translated by Brian Long = == =

    In this section Mr. Matsuo is telling how his original concepts for a world class sports car (a convertible with a 2.0L four cylinder engine), were over time modified by the realization that Nissan Management would do nothing to put his design concepts into production, hence a Change In Direction. Mr Matsuo enlisted the support of Mr. K, who he felt was the only person in Nissan Management that would listen to him. ... In turn he walks us through the evolution of the concept, as driven by requirements from the US market and Mr. K.. With Mr. K's backing and assurances to Nissan Corporate Management.. the Z car moves from "concept" and "styling alternatives" to pre-production and final design...

    = = =Quote - -

    A Change In Course:
    Regarding the Plan A series, in late-1966, we decided to approach the project in a different way. We heard of America's new safety regulations (MVSS), and realized it would be extremely difficult for an open car to comply, especially with the roll over requirements being cited. There were other factors, too, that made us abandon the softtop, such as poor rearward visibility, particularly in the rain, the cloth top flapping at high speeds and security.

    Mr. Katayama has always said a closed coupe was perhaps the ideal compromise, so we started to look into the possibilities of a hatchback, which would enable us to combine aerodynamic styling with good luggage capacity.

    {two paragraphs about pop-up headlights snipped..cjb}....

    A Prototype Based On "Plan A"
    From 1967, work begin in earnest producing full-sized clays based on the Plan A proposal. One of the key Z styling features evolved during this period, namely the "sugar scoop" headlights. The SAE regulations stated they should be 60cm from the ground, but plastic headlight covers were not allowed in America at the time. However we offered the later item as an option in Japan.

    The final clay we produced was very close to the to the ultimate shape of the Z. Although the body was still a touch narrow, the roof-line a little too high, the bonnet much too low to accept the six cylinder L-24 engine, and there remained a lot of detailing to do around the windows and tail-end. I was basically happy with the result.

    By coincidence, at the time of it's completion, Mr. Katayama was back in Japan to see the 510 before it was launched. During his visit he ask to see the next generation sports car, so we lined up the various clays (including the early ones depicting convertibles) and his eyes went straight to the last one we built. He said this was just what he needed in America.

    With Mr. Katayama's support, the project finally started to progress and the engineering department became involved. Eventually, by early Autumn of 1967, we had produced a fiberglass prototype. It was allocated the "Z" designation (an appellation that would stay with the car throughout it production life). However, when the technical staff arrived to discuss the project, we found we had a number of problems.

    Mr. Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 powerplant, while the Japanese market had exorbitant taxes on vehicles over 2000cc. Nissan had just taken over the Prince concern, and we were told to use their two liter S20 twin cam unit. (this eventually became the famous Z432 model incidentally). This powerful engine would require a stronger transmission, and the automatic version of the L24 equipped model required a much wider transmission tunnel; this in turn led to a reduction of interior space, so the only solution left open to us was to increase the width of the body. At the same time, the bonnet height had to be altered to accommodate the engines, and the roof-line was adjusted to suit.

    - - - - - - END Quote: - - - - - - -

    I believe that from the above statements by Mr. Matsuo it is quite clear that the design from 1967 forward, was driven by US requirements, Mr. K's inputs and only brought to production with Mr. K's support.

    No question that the flexibility to re-configure the design for additional sales in other markets was designed in from the beginning.. but selling all manor of different configurations in many markets wasn't the main goal. The main goal was to design a Sports/GT specifically to meet the expectations of American Customers.. Something that no other foreign manufacturers had done to that point.

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Alan wrote:
    >....snipped...
    >As I have noted so many times before, you seem to be in total denial that the
    >'240Z' ( for all territories ) was part of a range or family of cars that was covered
    >by the appelation 'Model S30 Series'. Accepting that plain truth will not diminish the >'240Z' in any way. Why can't you see it?

    The problem we have is, that I can see it. You desire to have the Nissan Fairlady Z viewed as, perceived as, being the same as, existing on the same level of importance as - the DATSUN 240-Z.

    I simply do not share that perspective. Actually I believe it to be totally false.

    Your affection for Japan is admirable and I share it. Only in America would Mr. K have been able to realize his dreams.. and he has said so. Only America was so open to and supportive of Japan.. when they needed a friend the most. Honoring the accomplishments of Mr. Katayama and Mr. Matsuo certainly can't be construed as having an American bias, supporting their written perspectives can't be construed as being arrogant...

    When the history of the Z Car is written, the story will be about the DATSUN 240-Z. Yes there will be a chapter maybe two about the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z, as well as a chapter or two about all the following years alterations and incarnations of all the Z's... Nonetheless the main story will be carried by the DATSUN 240-Z that changed the automotive landscape on an international basis.

    The Fairlady Z didn't kill the British Sports Car industry.. the Datsun 240-Z may have. The Fairlady Z didn't change America's perception of Japanese Automobiles and their Quality... the DATSUN 240-Z did. The Fairlady Z didn't set all time sales records, the DATSUN 240-Z did. The Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market, but the DATUSN 240-Z was designed for the American market.

    If you think about it -the real story of the Nissan Fairlady Z is that it was the exact opposite, of what almost every other sports car imported into America was. The Nissan Fairlady Z was adapted for sale in the local market, where all the other non US sports cars at the time were adapted for sale in their export market.

    If Nissan had brought another British or Italian style, Japanese sports car to America, it would have most likely sold in slightly better numbers than the 1600/2000 roadsters did, but it wouldn't have had much of an impact on the market. Designing a car specifically to meet American Customers expectations - had a huge impact on the market.

    If the Nissan Fairlady Z's had never been produced, the story of the Z wouldn't be changed all that much.. If the DATSUN 240-Z had not been produced.. there would be no story to tell, there would be no Z.

    No, the DATSUN 240-Z was not just a part of a family of cars, it was the singular Head Of Household. Yes there are interesting offspring surrounding it, but they are most certainly not siblings.

    just my honest perspective ..
    Carl

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    Alan wrote:
    >I attach a scan from a Nissan factory parts manual for you. If you tell me that
    >it is incorrect in the data it portrays, then it also calls into doubt the data
    >published in the corresponding North American market parts manuals,
    >does it not?

    Hi Alan:
    Thanks for the image.
    I would not say the data it presents is incorrect. I would say that like most of the data published by Nissan in the early days, I'd like to see some verification.

    I'll put a lot of faith in it... and leap to the conclusion that not only was a chassis serial sequence assigned to the HS30 Datsun 240-Z's in Oct. of 1969, but that a car was actually built and stamped with that number in 1969.

    I'll report where necessary that a Nissan publication would seem to indicate that at least 1 Right Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z was built in 1969... but that we have no way of telling if it was ever released for sale..

    regards,
    Carl

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    Firstly, whoa Ben! It's good to see you having your say. I know you usually approach these types of things in a more.. ahh.. diplomatic manner, but a strong opinion means you're passionate As I believe everyone in this thread certainly is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    As such, variations of that core design were pretty easily accommodated for sales almost anywhere in the world.
    How come it was the American version that was the "core design", and everything else stemmed from that? Remember, America was the odd one out when it came to specifications, as mentioned earlier. Did Nissan design the car with soft suspension and a 4-speed and then make variations of this (which were all pretty similar) for other markets? I don't think so... There was the domestic model, and the export model. Of course there were changes made for each country's regulations (e.g. American cars had rear reflector repeaters fitted), but there wasn't a single "Original 240Z" from which everything else stemmed. This is what Alan is talking about I think (correct me if I'm wrong). There is absoltuely no doubt America was important (most important?), but not the "core design".

    160,000 to 5300. Doesn't look like a "World Car" to me.
    When Porsche was contracted to design the KdFWagen, do you think he was designing from the US specifically? Of course not... Granted the situation has its differences, but fact remains at the design stage of the S30Z no one expected it to sell so well in the US. That is why Matsuo told Ben it was a world car. You make it sound like everything (even the domestic market cars!) were an afterthought!

    When the history of the Z Car is written, the story will be about the DATSUN 240-Z. Yes there will be a chapter maybe two about the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z, .......
    Yeah, if it's to be published in America. I wonder (genuinely) what kind of information Japanese Z-car history books have....

    The Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market, but the DATUSN 240-Z was designed for the American market.
    Err, the Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market? Is that a typo, or are your beliefs really that twisted?

    Anyway, I just thought I'd throw in my opinion too. The beauty of the Internet eh?

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    Zowwie! No intention on my part to get into an argument, however a few of the facts are getting a little distorted and I am begining to believes that whats I thinks are facts might very well be my own opinion.

    With regard to what I paid for #27 and what I got...I was offered twice what I paid for the car the day after I bought it. Fact. I was flattered and the fellow who made me the offer is one of my closer Z friends. The parts that came with #27 were very nice indeed, but hardly worth $1,000. I have purchased similar parts for #26 - on eBay.

    No "anyone" cannot purchase HLS30-00040 for $5,500. It was sold within days of the advertisement. Deals get snapped up fast. It was gone with hours of my hearing about it. Another low VIN car that sold for a similar price to #40 needed floors. I recently saw a low VIN parts car go for $1,000.

    I have been watching early VIN car sales and Vintage Z car sales for quite some time. I have been competitively buying parts and restoring components from dashboards to engines for two years. I think I have a pretty good grip on the market. I stick to my guns on the values I have mentioned.

    You have, in my opinion, a very restorable and potentially valuable car, NovaSS. I'm surprised it hasn't been snatched up like white on rice. It has long been my opinion that one cannot fully understand the phenomenon of the 240-Z without understanding what happened in Japan. Your example has several unique qualities which gives it a high value potential.

    RESTORE THAT JAPANESE BEAUTY

    What do you gus think of the dancer look fenders? Zebra stripes!
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  84. #84
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    #40 was posted for sale on the bulletin board at MSA in Orange, CA approximately two years ago & I considered selling my '73 to get it. Pictures showed it to be orange/black and had been in storage for the better part of its life. If we are talking about the same car while it was nice it was not a runner as it had sat for so long...

    If I remember correctly it was listed at $4500-5000

    -e

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    Quote Originally Posted by hls30.com
    "I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much."($500)


    Somebody got a deal!

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ADME:B:EF:US:1
    Will
    I bit my tounge on this statement but your are correct Will, the hatch glass is not worth that much used...new...maybe...but not used.



    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Chris said he paid $2350.00 for #27... also with extensive rust damage. But Chris also received hard to find new OEM parts with the car - IMO well worth $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on ebay. Parts which he could apply directly to his #26. Also the brag factor of having sequential serial numbers is well worth a few hundred bucks to any of us.. deduct the value of the new parts and what did he really pay for the car?
    Carl
    Yes, this is true and I feel it went for more than it was worth...but then again this is why I was out bid on it and Chris has it. It was certainly worth more to him as he now has two sequential Z cars and I highly doubt that there is anyone else in the world who can say that (opinion here, not fact). So as one can see this would prompt him to bid higher than many others just as it would have me if I were in his position.



    The bottom line here it supply and demand coupled with pure desire. I agree with the statements to put it on eBay and see what she'll fetch....however I would much rather you sell it to me instead. Do be aware that any Joe Schmoe can buy it off of eBay and may not have to same attachment to the Z cars as those of us in this, and other, forums do and as such someone on hybridz may end up with it and hack her to pieces like the ol' chicken coop car last year so please keep this in mind if you really want it to go to a vintage Z buff and not just anyone with the most cash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    What do you gus think of the dancer look fenders? Zebra stripes!
    Hey that fender looks familiar. Leave it like that and the guys will start throwing dollar bills at 27th. Excellent way to finance your restoration project. When does her "Ztriped (or even Ztripped) National Tour" start

    Vicky
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricB
    #40 was posted for sale on the bulletin board at MSA in Orange, CA approximately two years ago & I considered selling my '73 to get it. Pictures showed it to be orange/black and had been in storage for the better part of its life. If we are talking about the same car while it was nice it was not a runner as it had sat for so long...

    If I remember correctly it was listed at $4500-5000

    -e
    Hi Eric:
    Yes, we are most likely talking about the same car. It was gold as I recall.. Yes, it had sat for many years in a ladies garage.

    The guy that found it, had it at MSA three or four years ago, but then he thought it was worth $11K. No takers... I believe he could have sold it for around $6,500.00 at MSA if he hadn't chased the buyers off with the silly high price.

    A year or so later, he needed money... and had put more money into the car. At that point, forced to sell, he sold it for something less than $5,500.00. I don't know what Ben paid for it... but if Ben was willing to sell it for $5,500.00 I seriously doubt he paid more than $4,500.00. He would have had another grand in it for shipping.

    A few days ago, a friend of mine went to look at the car, and called me. He said he could buy it for $5,500.00 - I told him to buy it. It was pretty close, so he'd save a grand on shipping alone. (compaired to having one shipped from the SouthWest)

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadog
    When Porsche was contracted to design the KdFWagen, do you think he was designing from the US specifically? Of course not... Granted the situation has its differences, but fact remains at the design stage of the S30Z no one expected it to sell so well in the US. That is why Matsuo told Ben it was a world car. You make it sound like everything (even the domestic market cars!) were an afterthought!
    Hi Alpha Dog:
    "...but fact remains at the design stage of the S30Z no one expected it to sell so well in the US..".

    Can you tell me where you found these facts? Everything I've found in my research of the subject would seem to indicate the exact opposite to be true.

    I can only depend on the words that Mr. Matsuo wrote. What he is understood to have told someone in a casual conversation, I have no way of telling the context of the exchange.

    I do believe that as Mr. Matsuo and Mr. K were writing the story the way they lived it, they were attempting to tell the truth. Not my opinion, just the truth as they documented it in their book, written and published in Japan, in the Japanese language, by two Japanese men. (Brian Long did the English translation and I trust did it well).

    You say no one expected it to sell well. I have heard that before, but I can not find anything factual to support it. Following all the magazine articles and books written over the years, I believe that the fact that Nissan Management was reportedly cautious, possibly even skeptical of Katayama's sales forecasts, has somehow gotten misunderstood, twisted through reworded repetition - to mean "no one expected the Z to sell well". That just simply is not the case, nor is it supported by actual events.

    Nissan's top management was always cautious, but Mr. Katayama assured them that if it was produced to his US Customers requirements and expectations, he would sell it in the numbers forecast.

    Note: In the quoted reference that follows FYI .... when Mr. Matsuo refers to "his superiors".. he is talking about his supervisor and management chain in the Design Dept.. He went around them, many levels of management higher to enlist the support of Mr. K. Successful as he was as a designer, going around your management chain in Japanese corporations was something one just did not do.. Not too long after the Project Z, Mr. Matsuo left Nissan. Of course this is exactly what Mr. K did.. he went around his management chain in 1957... to promote International Rallying in 1958... and his management chain resented it, and him, until he was finally forced to retire.

    Mr. Matsuo wrote, in his same book quoted earlier:
    : .... "The Era In Which The Z Project Started"
    .........snipped...
    "...Furthermore, instead of producing 300 units per month, this had to be a high-volume seller, capable of becoming the core of Nissan's export business - I suggested a level of nearer 3,000 vehicles per month to make it profitable.

    Ultimately, we achieved far greater sales figures than this, but at the time, my superiors thought it was a foolish plan; nobody except Mr. Katayama would listen to me. I felt that the only way to make any progress with the project was to make a clay model to show to Katayama-san, gain his support, and ask him, as President of Nissan USA, to push for the models development."
    = = = =end quote = = =

    As you can see, according to Mr. Matsuo at least he and Mr. K thought the car would sell very well. Given that Nissan's top management approved the mass production of the car, they must have been convinced it would sell in the numbers forecast. (which were huge numbers by comparison to previous sales)

    Looking at the start up production schedules that Kats provided, production of the Z was set up to produced at least a couple thousand per month, once full capacity was reached on the lines. By comparison, Nissan had been building 8,868 1600//2000 roadsters in 1969 and selling 8,769 into their export market (again largely in the US). According to tables in the same book, Nissan sold 21,837 Z's in 1970 and 44,988 in 1971.

    From 1958 to 1970 Nissan built and sold a total of 49,821 Sports Cars.. In 1970 and 71 alone they reported 67, 997 Z's..

    At least according to the two men most involved.. it was expected to set new sales records for Nissan and the production plans for at least 1970 were about three times greater than the previous year.

    I think the statement that; "it sold far better than anyone dreamed", would be closer to the truth. But you can see how that could easily be twisted through reported repetition to .... "no one expected it to sell as well as it did". It was forecast to sell at 3000 units per month, and cautiously it put into production at 2000 units per month... but it sold over the four years of its production at over 4000 units per month average.

    Had Nissan's top management not been quite so conservative they could have easily doubled their first and second year sales. By 1972, according to the same book - they had ramped up production close to 66,000 per year. (65,956 of which 60,025 were exported 91%) and increased the retail price of the car by 20%!


    FWIW,
    regards,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadog
    Yeah, if it's to be published in America. I wonder (genuinely) what kind of information Japanese Z-car history books have....
    The book I'm using as a reference here, was written in Japan, published in Japan, written in the Japanese language.

    I would encourage anyone with an interest in doing their own research to get a copy. Wonderful pictures by Mr. Matsuo of the evolution of the design. The translation by Brian Long is great reading, but contains no Pictures!! So you really need both the Book and the translation if you don't read Japanese.

    FARILADY Z STORY .. DATSUN SP/SR & Z 1960 to 1989
    by Yutaka Katayama and Yoshihiko Matsuo
    Published Miki Press
    ISBN: 4-89522-244-6

    There are several other good books about the Z published in Japan, in Japanese. There is a good reference to them at:
    http://dsoanews.tripod.com/History.htm

    Some rare books published in Japanese are a bit spendy... but well worth getting if you can find them. Filled with great pictures

    FWIW,
    regards,
    Carl

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    Default Automatic Transmissions

    Some time much earlier someone in this thread as about the percentages of A/T equipped 240-Z's. Sorry I can't remember who ask or commented on it.

    Nonetheless I did remember the question.. and it took me a while to find any reference point... but looking through the Z Library here at home...

    In John B Rae's History of Nissan/Datsun... he published retail sales figures for 1971. Taken from Nissans records...

    The chart shows:
    24,441 240-Z's with standard shift.
    2,291 240-Z's with A/T

    Total 26,732

    These figures are units sold by Nissan USA to their Authorized Dealers in fiscal year 1971 (I don't think that was the same a Calender year). Nonetheless at least it's one data point... showing about 9% of the total were A/T's..

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Red face

    All that I can add is if the 240Z [HLS30] as known in the US market was the core model, then how on earth could the designers get it so wrong by locating the handbrake on the "wrong" side!

    Surely, such an important device would have been designed & mounted or placed in a position of immediate acceptance to its greatest potential market, unless such vast sales where never anticipated.

    The reality of this thread [now hijacked] is that those who don't consider the S30 as the core model will never accept the fact, similarly, many of us can never accept the argument that the HLS30 is the core model.

    Long live all S30's and it's siblings.....

    MOM
    Mike of the Mire

    73 240Z Rally
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    Bogged but not beaten

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    Default RE: Automatic Transmissions

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Some time much earlier someone in this thread as about the percentages of A/T equipped 240-Z's. Sorry I can't remember who ask or commented on it.

    Nonetheless I did remember the question.. and it took me a while to find any reference point... but looking through the Z Library here at home...

    In John B Rae's History of Nissan/Datsun... he published retail sales figures for 1971. Taken from Nissans records...

    The chart shows:
    24,441 240-Z's with standard shift.
    2,291 240-Z's with A/T

    Total 26,732

    These figures are units sold by Nissan USA to their Authorized Dealers in fiscal year 1971 (I don't think that was the same a Calender year). Nonetheless at least it's one data point... showing about 9% of the total were A/T's..

    FWIW,
    Carl
    Thanks for the info, Carl. That's about what I expected. A/T Z's weren't very prevelent in the area I live. I usually saw them in the ownership of older people in my area. (i.e. older than Baby Boomers)

    (I was the one who inquired)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedrally
    Surely, such an important device would have been designed & mounted or placed in a position of immediate acceptance to its greatest potential market, unless such vast sales where never anticipated.

    What can possibly make you think that it ISN'T (wasn't) accepted in that location (in the market of it's greatest sales)? Just because you don't think it belongs there, doesn't mean that the US market agrees with that belief.

    Many of us laugh when you and others whine about it's placement. Are your arms so short that it would be a burden to reach it 6" further away?

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    What was this thread suposed to be about again?
    www.nostalgictrio.com Skyline - Silvia - Fairlady Z
    www.ozdat.com The Australian Datsun site.
    www.cafepress.com/vintagedatsun

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedrally
    All that I can add is if the 240Z [HLS30] as known in the US market was the core model, then how on earth could the designers get it so wrong by locating the handbrake on the "wrong" side!

    Surely, such an important device would have been designed & mounted or placed in a position of immediate acceptance to its greatest potential market, unless such vast sales where never anticipated.
    MOM
    Hi Mike
    "Core"... Of course the "S30" body shell is the "Core". The argument is about for whom and for what purpose, the car was designed and built.

    I believe that Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama are the best authority to define the answer to those questions, and they have. They both say that the Z car was specifically designed for the US market. Mr. Matsuo explains in the book he co-authored how his initial concepts for a "world class" sports car evolved into the Sports/GT that Mr. K wanted specifically for his US customers.

    Mr Matsuo and Mr. K tell the story of how Mr. Matsuo was getting no-where with his designs as far as the approval of his supervisors... and how once he enlisted Mr. K's support, things started to move forward. Mr. Matsuo also outlines the evolution of the design from his initial roadster size, 4 cylinder, convertible... into the larger Sports/GT that Mr. K wanted.. Mr. Matsuo tells us that Mr. K insisted on the L24 for the US market, and how that drove even farther the size and shape of the car. Mr. Matsuo also tells us that it was Nissan Management that told him to use the S20 for the home market (as they had recently merged with Prince.). Mr Matsuo had designed his car to use the 2.0L four from the 2000 roadster...

    "Core" of course the S30 body shell is the core... and it is the size that it is, because it had to hold the L24 for the US market, and it had to hold US size customers. Bob Sharp tell a very interesting story about that in a previous issue of Sports Car Graphic. If you dont know Mr. Sharp, or haven't seen him... he is over 6'2"... He evaluated the original Silvia Cpe for Nissan... and his feedback went directly to Japan (his and many other US Dealers)...that's another interesting story.

    The bottom line is, as far as I can see, documentation from the main people involved all say that the Z car was designed specifically for the US market. Nissan Management in japan also supports that idea, as every interview with Nissan Management that I can find states that they saw their sports cars as export cars... not domestic market cars.



    I'll be gone... until the weekend.. so save your breath ;-)
    FWIW,
    regards,
    Carl

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    It almost as if, from some of the responses, the you guys are looking for bragging rights as to which country the car was designed for. Carl's responses are not about that. They're about fact. The videos that we've all seen, even have Mr. K. himself indicating that the U.S. market was the main focus. I could care less, I'm just glad they built them, period. Personally, I don't see the need for all of this considering the guy was simply trying to establish the value of his car. If I were NovaSS, I would just sit back and watch you guys fight it out, it's interesting on many levels! But is doesn't really answer his question. If my car could cause all of this, I would definately keep it! Rock on Carl(s), Alfa, Mike, Alan, et al.
    Last edited by sblake01; 03-10-2005 at 07:55 AM.
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    Congratulations Stephan! You just got bull****ted! Took it hook line and sinker!
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    ...The argument......
    With all due respect to everyone that has posted to this, I'd suggest we call it a DISCUSSION. Granted, it's heated and pointed, but let's try to keep it as a discussion and not an argument. An argument implies that there will be a "winner", and I can't fathom any one viewpoint here being assailed as the one that's more correct than the other.

    Alan and Carl, I respect the knowledge and fervor that you both demonstrate in your posts. I've not had the opportunity to meet either one of you, but hopefully we can share a libation or two.

    When I first searched the internet to research my (finally) purchase of my Z, your viewpoints were very informative and pleasant reading. Same goes to all the others who've contributed with information, questions and even clarifications, they've increased the value of this type of discussion.

    However, I feel that this may be an issue that is very seriously tainted not only by the lack of total information available from Nissan, but also the haphazard manner in which they released it, further exacerbated by piecemeal agglomeration by well-meaning individuals. Any compilation of data will always have the compiler's editorial bias built into it.

    This is why this sharing of information, regardless of your position on the issue, is so important. This is what allows us to sift through the data and hopefully agree on some and agree to disagree on others.

    Where some people can point out numerous instances where Nissan said this or that, others can point to other instances where contradictions APPEAR to exist. They may simply be two different views of the same diamond from two different facets.

    In a way, this is why politics gets so heated. (and no, I'm not alluding to anything). What is plainly evident to some, seems to be a veiled and hidden agenda to others.

    One point that we must take into consideration, any statement that Nissan released in the U.S., I'll guarantee had been reviewed by Marketing Analysts, Advertising and Management to ensure that the public "persona" it portrayed to the U.S. customer highlighted AND emphasized how much was being done for the U.S. with the U.S. in mind. This is a simple marketing tactic. I use it at trade shows in other countries, and so do the 2-3 dozen Int. Sales Mgrs. I know. So, very bluntly, any pamphlet, brochure, catalog or hype expressed in the U.S. by Nissan will have that filter applied to it by Nissan.

    While that may seem to nullify any argument regarding whether the Z was targeted at the U.S., it doesn't. Under the note I'm taking above, I'm presuming that Nissan would have similarly tainted their pamphlets, brochures, catalogs and hype to ANY other country in the same manner.

    But then the "world" view needs to be considered.

    I seriously doubt that anyone can provide a copy of a sales brochure, press release, catalog, etc. that was provided by Datsun with regards to the Z that went UNCHANGED from it's initial printing in Japan, that was then distributed WORLDWIDE.

    If you remember that for the most part, as far as the Earth is conscerned, only JAPAN speaks / writes in JAPANESE. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of Japanese people living in...., and that..... My basic point is that OUTSIDE of Japan, Datsun would have had the brochure not only translated into the local language, but also modified and adjusted to fit THAT countries morťs and laws. That is just too basic to need mentioning in a sales environment, but may or may not be something that the members of this group would be aware of. No insult intended, but it's a fact.

    Every person that I've spoken to about translating ANY of the Oriental Languages from the WRITTEN Oriental to YOUR SPOKEN language has added, in one manner or another, that the translation is THEIR take on it. Even Alan has done so.

    That is because the WRITTEN Oriental Language involves a completely and totally DIFFERENT symbology than "Western" languages, and yes I'm including Cyrillic, French, Spanish, Greek, English, etc, but NOT the Arabic languages, they have their own symbology.

    When you encounter the semantic and ideological incongruities when translating between languages YOU speak, you can understand this fully. However, those of you who don't speak another language, you need a different way of perceiving that difficulty.

    For those of you in the East Coast a BUBBLER is something very common in public parks and areas. The concept of a DRINKING FOUNTAIN seems not only stupid, but down-right dangerous. Who would want to drink water that is just being recirculated over and over again, in the open air to catch whatever crap falls into it. Yet to a person on the West Coast, this is perfectly natural and your bubbler is something you stick in an aquarium to aereate the water.

    I've been told that in Australia, the expression "Keep Your Pecker Up!" is equivalent to the Americans "Keep Your CHIN Up!".

    Where the Aussie term could safely be used amongst two pals, in a bar crowded with gorgeous women (that's a given), in a room full of children, it may cause you problems. And if you think about it, the American term in those same situations may have the situation's consequences reversed.

    Even books written for those individuals in a group that spans multiple countries, will still exhibit a taint of self-aggrandisement, self-importance, and self-assurance.

    NO ONE ADVERTISES THEIR FAILURES.

    Most people and businesses would never allow a "sanctioned" publication that threatened to shatter / damage / impugn their public image. That it happens is the argument between celebrities and the press. if the celebrity has a hand in it, you can bet that the negative is eliminated.

    While you may laugh at the idea of buying Michael Jackson's Auto-Biography, I would hazard a guess that he's not going to describe anything even remotely conceivable as what he is perceived as doing and being charged with. Pick up a trash journal...... or whatever [I]reputable [/IB] magazine / newspaper / group you choose and then try to decide which one to believe.

    THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING.

    There is far too much intelligence on this post, to have it ruined because we can't, as intelligent people, agree that we WILL HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS of the same diamond we are all interested in. Namely the Z, the 240Z, the Fairlady Z, the S30, and any that I missed.

    There are definite similarities. Let's key on those and point out the differences that we've been able to observe.

    Now, that having been said, WHERE the car was destined for INITIALLY, will have the biggest impact on it's design, but that can change midstream, and your emphasis and focus changes as things progress. It may be that in 1956 when Mr. K had the first "brainstorms" regarding what would become his biographical keynote, that his intent was different and initially proposed differently than what eventually came to pass.

    THAT IS HIS "GENIUS". That's the force that brought it forth. His ability to recognize needed additions, modifications, deletions etc. is something we can only guess at. The end result is we're discussing this between 16 time zones or more. I think the time zones NOT involved are in the oceans.


    Enrique




    Last edited by EScanlon; 03-10-2005 at 02:02 PM.

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    Enrique,
    Nice post. Some very valid points there.
    I could particularly relate to your thoughts on the differences between translations, and the fact that sales pitches can be mistaken for truth...

    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon

    One point that we must take into consideration, any statement that Nissan released in the U.S., I'll guarantee had been reviewed by Marketing Analysts, Advertising and Management to ensure that the public "persona" it portrayed to the U.S. customer highlighted AND emphasized how much was being done for the U.S. with the U.S. in mind. This is a simple marketing tactic. I use it at trade shows in other countries, and so do the 2-3 dozen Int. Sales Mgrs. I know. So, very bluntly, any pamphlet, brochure, catalog or hype expressed in the U.S. by Nissan will have that filter applied to it by Nissan.
    I'd just like to alight very briefly on the subject of Mr Yutaka Katayama. He has a ( rightly deserved ) reputation as a seminal figure in automotive history, and - like just about everybody else - I admire him very much. Revere his achievements, in fact. But criticising him, or suggesting that not everything he did was good for Nissan, would be considered akin to shooting Bambi or picking a fight with Mother Theresa of Calcutta. And yet there would be a very strong case to argue that he made some mistakes, and perhaps went rather a long way to creating some of the problems that reared their heads after he was shown the door. No doubt I will be castigated for daring to suggest this.

    Katayama and Matsuo's names have been mentioned many times on this thread, and one might get the impression that all is sweetness and light between them. It wasn't always so, and I can tell you - from personal experience - that their renewed friendship has a very lot more going on behind it than the current smiles and backslapping suggest. All this "Mother and Father of the Z" thing does not tell the whole story.....

    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon

    My basic point is that OUTSIDE of Japan, Datsun would have had the brochure not only translated into the local language, but also modified and adjusted to fit THAT countries morťs and laws. That is just too basic to need mentioning in a sales environment, but may or may not be something that the members of this group would be aware of. No insult intended, but it's a fact.

    Every person that I've spoken to about translating ANY of the Oriental Languages from the WRITTEN Oriental to YOUR SPOKEN language has added, in one manner or another, that the translation is THEIR take on it. Even Alan has done so.
    Yes I have, as I'm only too aware that 'translation' from Japanese into English and vice versa is not as straightforward as most people would imagine. Its not only WRITTEN Japanese that is the problem. So much of Japanese culture is what is not said, and what is implied. Any translator would have to be a virtuoso jazz musician to do a half-way decent job I feel.

    Which brings me to tie-up the two themes of my post; 'Lost In Translation' and the subtle differences between Katayama and Matsuo's viewpoints:

    Carl Beck posted quotes ( at length ) from a Japanese-published book called "Fairlady Z Story" - published by MIKI PRESS in 1999. Katayama and Matsuo are credited as authors of the book, although the bulk of it was written by Hideaki Kataoka, Brian Long, and the "Miki Press Editorial Team". The chapters 'written' by Katayama and Matsuo ( one each ) were actually ghost-written from interviews conducted with them. Most of the picture captions are written in both Japanese and English, and a special limited-dition version was printed that contained an English translation of selected sections of the book on a folded paper insert - which was performed by Brian Long and his wife Miho. It is mostly from this that Carl Beck's quotes come

    Now, I should say that Brian is a friend of mine - so I'm not slighting his translation. But I would like to illustrate the difficulty of translation, as well as differing viewpoints of Katayama and Matsuo, by pointing out the differences in their chapter titles.

    Katayama's chapter reads ( phonetically ) "Datsun 240Z koshte tanjo ****a" - which I would I would translate just as the book's subtitle has it: Birth of Datsun 240Z". Katayama wrote ( said ) "Datsun 240Z".
    Contrast this with Matsuo's chapter, which reads ( again phonetically ) "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" - which I would translate as: "Original Z design development essay", and yet the English subtitle in the book translates this as: "How I developed Datsun 240Z styling" - which is quite clearly not what he said or wrote. The Japanese title reads "Original Z" - not "Datsun 240Z"....

    Here's where I'll have the "nitpicking" ( or "whining" ) foul card shown to me, I suppose. It may not matter to most people, but to me it is a subtle illustration of the way that Matsuo thinks ( more the Japanese way ) and the way that Katayama thinks ( naturally more the American way ) and I want to point it out. Not least because I don't want anybody to think that the book that Carl Beck is quoting from is the First Testament on the Z, or that it portrays everything the way that he sees it.

    I doubt that many people are interested in this thread any more, but at least it had some decent info for NovaSS in it when it started.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedrally
    All that I can add is if the 240Z [HLS30] as known in the US market was the core model, then how on earth could the designers get it so wrong by locating the handbrake on the "wrong" side!
    MOM
    Mike,
    The handbrake issue is only one of the design concessions on the car, but Mr Beck likes to explain them away like he did on the "Interior Ergonomics" thread ( like the petrol filler flap being on the RIGHT of the car because that's the side that the pumps are in USA 'gasoline stands' ). Domino Theory goes nowhere when the Beck Patent Blinkers are fitted.

    But didn't you see the one MASSIVE seachange in this thread? A huge seismic event. Buried amongst the quotes, wisecracks, postulations and hectoring was the very rare site of Beck conceding a point. Well, nearly anyway.....

    Didn't anybody else notice that he seemingly - I still can't believe it myself - is now willing to accept the possibility that at least "one" HS30 might have been manufactured before the end of 1969.

    His arithmetic is a bit out ( I would count at least three if Nissan actually assigned numbers HS30-00001 and HS30-00002, which does seem likely ) but even one is better than his previous "none".

    And all this because - it appears - he hadn't seen a right hand drive Export market 'R-Drive' Factory parts book before. I guess there must be something missing from 'The Z Library' chez Beck?

    Think we'll see revisions at zhome.com now? Don't hold your breath....

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