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Thread: to bre or not to bre, that is the ?

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    Registered User zhead240's Avatar
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    Default to bre or not to bre, that is the ?

    my 72 zed has no modifications that i can tell.it looks all original. the dash might be after market. i only say that because it's in such great condition. even the paint looks orig. i've found nothing to make me beleive otherwise.the ? is should i do any mods now? i like the look of a air dam and spoiler, but i just can't bring myself to drill holes in her.it would be like painting a moustashe an the mona lisa.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=42611
    is this a bre? and in canada too.
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    to be or not to be- shakespeare
    do be do be do- sinatra
    vehicles owned
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    2009 honda civic exl
    1973 triumph tr6
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    Alfa to Zed Ricklandia's Avatar
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    DONT DO IT!!!!!!!
    Seriously, if your car is HALF as good looking as the pictures, I wouldn't touch it! It's one thing to fool around with one that's already been altered or molested, but true UN-molested cars of this age are VERY hard to find. If you REALLY want to do one up, get a second car. Better yet, sell me THIS one and get a different one.

    JMHO
    1973 240Z - Red/4 Spd w A/C - HLS30-134739
    1990 Alfa Romeo Spider - Black

    "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

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    I think the main problem with modifications is when people don't spend enough time considering what it will do and if it serves a adventageous purpose. I see many cars that people have just gone and spent money on modifying it for the sake of modifying without really thinking about it. I think alot of it has to do with keeping up with the jones' mentality they all see their friends with the bling rims so they want it too.

    I would go for the BRE style I think it's very period authentic and it looks great I would be prepared to change rims though and possibly add the rear 432 or BRE style spoiler also.

    I'm probably going to buy the rear 432 spoiler for my Z and place it on the car and get a good idea of how it will look. You can also use a editing program such as Photoshop to see what it will look like in the end. I did that with my Z if you look in my gallery.

    I'm the sort of person though who likes a well modified Z and I do like originality but for a car I plan to drive often in the future I'd like to sort a few quirks out and have it perform the way i like.

    So i guess it's a case of whatever floats your boat.

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    Registered User zhead240's Avatar
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    Default what about....

    new wheels would be o k ? like rewinds or panasport. i'd keep the orig wheels. i see flaps on ebay that don't require any drilling, do any members have these and do they stay on reasonable well?
    to be or not to be- shakespeare
    do be do be do- sinatra
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    2009 honda civic exl
    1973 triumph tr6
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    68 390 mustang coup

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    Say, I must have missed a thread somewhere but. When did you get your Z? She looks real nice! Lets see some more pictures. As far as the spoiler goes. If it's in your price range get it. You don't have to put it on right away. See how she looks with it. If you don't like it you can turn around and sell it. Personally I like the BRE spoiler. Clean and efficient. Look through the gallery at some Zeds with the BRE spoiler.

    Enjoy.
    The 1973 240Z 165540 Slightly modified. L28, 5sp, cam, headers, MSD 6AL, power windows, power door locks, leather seats, custom this and custom that.

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Patrick,

    This is a BRE / Interpart front spoiler. Notice the difference in the shape of the duct. There should actually be a top piece that turns the duct into a tube for the brakes.

    I see you are having the same trouble with your stock Z that I have with mine. There are a few modifications that really make the Z look much better and perform better as well. The front spook / rear spoiler is one of them. The BRE style is classic and quite period correct. And the pieces are quite functional. Furthermore, the Japanese cars came with spooks and spoilers. So did the European exports. Consider that the front spook is worthless without the rear spoiler.

    If I were you, I would shop around for the exact pieces you want. You may decide to do nothing or you may decide on nitrous - I don't know. Anyhow, have fun. From all the pictures you have sent me and posted, I think the dash is original as well as everything else. Your new ride looks pretty cherry.

    Chris
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    Registered User zhead240's Avatar
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    ed- go to post 2 days and click on new arrival.more pics there
    to be or not to be- shakespeare
    do be do be do- sinatra
    vehicles owned
    72 240z
    2009 honda civic exl
    1973 triumph tr6
    wife's
    2002 vw jetta
    68 390 mustang coup

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    PatricK:

    I'd consider the BRE spook, but I'd be more inclined to buy one from Classic Datsun rather than this one on eBay. I think you'd get a better quality part. It could always be removed later without much effort if you wished to do so. Good Luck

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    I bought the same spoiler from the same people, it needs some prep work to be ready for installation and paint, but I have never recieved a fiberglass part that came in ready to go. I have installed quite a number of ground effects pieces on Zs. It is a good quality part that they knew would have to be sanded and blocked, so the finish is not wonderful, but the construstion is very good.
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Get the front spook. It will not detract from the lines of the car; if you decide to remove it, only you will know the mtg. holes are there; and it helps keep the front end down at the speeds you KNOW you want to drive!

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    the front end does seem to wander at 85mph. will the deck spoiler help with the fumes issue?
    to be or not to be- shakespeare
    do be do be do- sinatra
    vehicles owned
    72 240z
    2009 honda civic exl
    1973 triumph tr6
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    68 390 mustang coup

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    the spoiler isn't going to help with the fumes...might make em worse.
    --Dave aka Dogma420 My Gallery
    Early '72 red 110 / white (10/71)
    HLS30 56895

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    Hello zhead240 (everyone):
    I'm coming to the thread a little late... but if you haven't decided what to do yet... I will add a few comments that might provide a little more information to help your decision.

    I have a couple of 72 240Z's myself. The one I drive most of the time is pretty much stock from the perspective of the body, drive train, color etc. However I have added a few bolt-on options that improve the driving experience, without permanently altering the body; so if at any time in the future, I or any future owner want's to return it to ""pure stock".. it can be easily done.

    There is no question in my mind, if you plan to drive your Z at freeway speeds, the addition of the BRE Spook (Front Spoiler/Scoop) is a must have.

    According to tests done by Car & Driver back in the early 70's the stock 240Z generates 140lbs of lift on the front tires at 70mph. This contributes greatly to that feeling of front end wonder.. you feel in a pure stock 240-Z.

    The BRE Spook generates 105lbs of downforce (ducted type), or 115lbs of downforce (unducted type) at the front tires. This all but cancels the lift.. and has the added advantage of directing additional cooling air into the radiator. The effects of the BRE Spook can be measured at 35mph.. so you don't have to be going 70mph to benefit.

    Chris wrote:
    >.....snipped...
    >....Furthermore, the Japanese cars came with spooks and spoilers. So did
    >the European exports. Consider that the front spook is worthless without
    >the rear spoiler.
    >......snipped...

    Car & Driver also tested the factory front spoiler and found it to be all but ineffective. It only protruded down about 3.5" and had no significant effect on reducing lift. Additionally the BRE Spook covers the area between the front lower finisher panel (valances) and the lower radiator core support.. enclosing this area had the added effect of preventing air flow around the bottom of the radiator from the grill area.. thus directing/forcing more air flow through the radiator.

    Adding only the front Spook is actually very effective. You will find it locks the front end down to the road at speed and provides far more stable tracking which makes the 240Z far easier and more enjoyable to drive for prolonged periods. (it eliminates that feeling of front end wonder).

    Adding the BRE Spook to the front, adds downforce to the front, which in turn pushes the nose down. This then causes the rear of the car to be pushed up.. in other words it adds lift to the rear. The lift at the rear wheels on the stock 240Z at 70mph is 35lbs, adding the BRE Spook to the front increases the lift on the rear wheels by an additional 20lbs. The additional lift at the rear is hardly noticeable... and all but gone if you are packed for a road trip.

    Nonetheless - adding the BRE Rear Spoiler (which is about the same as the Nissan OEM type) adds 75lbs of downforce to the rear at 70mph.... which completely cancels the 35lbs of lift on the rear wheels in the stock Z, or the 55lbs of lift at the rear, on a BRE Spook equipped Z. For higher speed road racing you might want to add the rear spoiler... or if you just like the look..

    Dave wrote (related to the rear spoiler):
    >the spoiler isn't going to help with the fumes...might make em worse.

    Car & Driver's Tests and my personal experience would tend to indicate that the opposite is true. Adding the rear spoiler moves the turbulent high pressure area, normally present and pushing directly on the rear of the Z.. which is caused by the Kamm back design... farther to the rear of the car. This reduces the positive pressure that is pushing the exhaust fumes into the cabin in the stock Z... So adding the rear spoiler will, in theory reduce the exhaust fumes normally pushed into the cabin. This has been born out by my experience as well. (it's not a cure-all but it will help).

    To properly mount the BRE Spook.. you do have to drill about 7 small holes in the front lower finisher panels. If you remove the Spook, it is doubtful that you would notice these, without close inspection. Nonetheless, if that bothers you, simply buy a used set of finisher panels, have them painted to match the car along with the Spook, and save your stock panels to reinstall, should you ever want to return the car to its pure stock look.

    I also agree with the recommendation to buy the Spook from Classic Datsun Motorsports. Les had the original Interpart molds used for the remanufacturing of the Series II BRE Spooks.


    hope this helps,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
    Clearwater, FL USA
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    "Car & Driver also tested the factory front spoiler and found it to be all but ineffective. It only protruded down about 3.5" and had no significant effect on reducing lift."

    That is a correct statement only regarding Car & Driver's article. There are other tests, including Nissan's that convey different results. That's why the cars were fitted with the devices to begin with. Car & Driver, as well as BRE / Interpart, recommend both devices - front and rear.

    "The additional lift at the rear is hardly noticeable... and all but gone if you are packed for a road trip."

    That is a subjective statement that cannot be substantiated. What does it mean? Every time you want stability in the rear end at speed, you put a couple of concrete blocks back there?
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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Les Cannaday, Classic Datsun 760-940-6365

    That is where I got my front and rear BRE spoilers.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    That is a correct statement only regarding Car & Driver's article. There are other tests, including Nissan's that convey different results. That's why the cars were fitted with the devices to begin with. Car & Driver, as well as BRE / Interpart, recommend both devices - front and rear.
    Hi Chris:
    Please provide the source of the "other tests" including Nissan's and/or publish their results for us, I would very much like to read them.

    C&D wrote of the Factory Front Spoiler:
    ..."Unfortunately, the Datsun Spoiler hangs down so little that it isn't very effective. Our tests showed it developed only 35 lbs of front down-force and no measurable improvement in gas mileage. The 3.5 inch vertical dimension is simply not enough to block a substantial amount of under-car air flow."

    Secondly, BRE sold both the front and rear spoilers, so of course they would recommend them both. Both BRE spoilers are effective, as I reported from the C&D article.. I'd recommend both BRE spoilers, if the person wants them both.

    Recommending them both, for specified reasons (total drag reduction, total down-force etc.), does not in any way imply that the front spoiler is worthless without the rear, nor that they are both "required" in every case.

    Your original statement however: "Consider that the front spook is worthless without the rear spoiler." is, I believe, simply incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z
    "The additional lift at the rear is hardly noticeable... and all but gone if you are packed for a road trip."

    That is a subjective statement that cannot be substantiated. What does it mean? Every time you want stability in the rear end at speed, you put a couple of concrete blocks back there?
    Actually it is a conclusion, based on both personal experiments (one 72 Z with both front and rear spoilers, a second 72 Z with only the front spoiler)... and supported by the quantitative data provided by the C & D article. Additionally, I told you how to substantiate it for yourself - ie. pack for a road trip.

    20 lbs of lift is completely offset by 20 lbs of down-force, no matter if the down-force is supplied by air pressure or additional weight. I seriously doubt that anyone driving their Z on the highway at 70 mph would notice any difference in handling when their fuel tank had 9 or 12 gallons of gasoline... for example.

    What does it mean?... It means that adding only the front Spook to a 240-Z, adds 20 lbs of lift to the rear wheels... there is no need to add the rear spoiler in an effort to offset that additional lift, because 20 lbs of lift on the rear wheels has no noticeable effect on the handling of the car. The car handles perfectly well on the highway at 70 mph, plus or minus 20 lbs of lift at the rear.

    On the other hand, as everyone who has added the BRE Spook will attest, adding it to the front of the 240-Z does have a very noticeable, positive effect on the handling of the car at highway speeds.

    FWIW
    Carl

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    For the attention of Mr Carl Beck:

    Sorry to poke my nose in here, but I wanted to catch Mr Beck's attention on an active thread that he is participating in.....

    Carl, have you seen this thread:The First Z Pace Car?

    Some relevant, pertinent and ( I think ) interesting information in there for you regarding Z Pace Cars.

    Perhaps you would like to use some of that information to update your own pages re Z pace cars on zhome.com?

    Don't forget my credit, will you? ;-)

    Hijack over.
    Cheers!
    Alan T.

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Not a problem, Alan. We are getting off the topic and loosing ground on factual information anyhow. My suggestion to Patrick was simply do both the front spook and the rear spoiler. Not just one. I don't have time to argue my reasons.

    Carl, how about if we just agree to not talk about automotive aerodynamics. I'm really not up on the fine points luggage influence. In the mean time, you might go back to your Z Car magazines and read the articles Ben Millspaugh, Phd,. Aerospace, wrote in 1995. That would be good reading for anyone who is interested in Z car aerodynamics.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhead240
    i like the look of a air dam and spoiler, but i just can't bring myself to drill holes in her.
    Hi Zhead! I think the spook looks good too, but with such an original car IMO I'd probably leave it be. That said, if you decide to individualise it with a BRE spook/rear spoiler then I'd agree with what some people have already mentioned - shop around and buy the best quality parts you can! That cherry of a car deserves no less.

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    26th-Z,
    Its a shame the thread will peter out, as I have been scratching my head in wonder at how a static loading ( luggage ) can effectively be compared with an aerodynamic effect. Wouldn't that be comparing apples with bananas? And wouldn't spring, damper and ARB rates have a bearing on the effects of static and dynamic loads, and on aerodynamic effects?

    Carl asked you to produce any of Nissan's data to 'prove' their findings, but I'd agree with you that if Nissan put spoilers on some cars then they had a good reason to do so. But wouldn't we expect Nissan's research data to be in Japanese rather than English? I can't imagine that being of immediate use.......

    And why does Nissan's rear spoiler so often get referred to as the "BRE" rear spoiler?

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Yes, the subject involves several other issues such as pitch-roll-yaw and drag. From what I read, the Nissan rear spoiler was designed and placed to destroy lift by separating the accelerated boundary layer of air traveling over the hatch. I don't think it has anything to do with the rear suspension exclusively. There was data available from Jim Cook Racing lab work conducted in the late '70s which points to the same conclusions. Suffice to say that the S30 produces lift causing instability and that the BRE combo spook / spoiler is a real good "bang-for-the-buck" solution. The setup closely mimics the Nissan solution and even though it produces more drag, it probably helps with cooling better. I'll reiterate my point and that is the combination of equipment gives the best results.
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    And why does Nissan's rear spoiler so often get referred to as the "BRE" rear spoiler?
    Because it was sold through Brock Racing Enterprises in the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H
    For the attention of Mr Carl Beck:

    Sorry to poke my nose in here, but I wanted to catch Mr Beck's attention on an active thread that he is participating in.....

    Carl, have you seen this thread:The First Z Pace Car?

    Some relevant, pertinent and ( I think ) interesting information in there for you regarding Z Pace Cars.

    Perhaps you would like to use some of that information to update your own pages re Z pace cars on zhome.com?

    Don't forget my credit, will you? ;-)

    Hijack over.
    Cheers!
    Alan T.
    Hi Alan:
    Great Stuff... thanks for the contribution...

    I'll put a draft up on the Z Car Home Page, send you the URL via e-mail (is it still the same as it was?). You can review the draft.... send corrections/edits as you see fit (copy/past plain text in e-mail will do, or if you can do the html coding that is fine also).. and once it meets your satisfaction... we'll link it to the main index.

    If you have color images, or higher resolution images that you would like to use.. just e-mail them to me (I have no limit on size of files on my e-mail and high speed connections etc.).

    kind regards,
    Carl


    Carl Beck
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron carter
    Because it was sold through Brock Racing Enterprises in the United States.
    Hello Ron!
    What happened to me being on your 'ignore' list then? I didn't think you'd be able to see anything written by me any more, let alone quote it.

    Personally speaking, I've never used the 'ignore' function - so I don't know exactly how it works.

    Regarding the 'BRE' ( actually Nissan ) rear spoiler, thanks for your input. It is interesting to me that a Nissan designed and manufactured part would take on the 'BRE' accreditation simply because 'BRE' sold it in the USA.

    Did this happen with all the other non-'BRE' manufactured products sold by 'BRE', or was it just the Nissan rear spoilers? Or was it just mis-accreditation on the part of the general public?

    All these questions asked with the presumption that you can actually see what I have written......

    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Hi Alan:
    Great Stuff... thanks for the contribution...

    I'll put a draft up on the Z Car Home Page, send you the URL via e-mail (is it still the same as it was?). You can review the draft.... send corrections/edits as you see fit (copy/past plain text in e-mail will do, or if you can do the html coding that is fine also).. and once it meets your satisfaction... we'll link it to the main index.

    If you have color images, or higher resolution images that you would like to use.. just e-mail them to me (I have no limit on size of files on my e-mail and high speed connections etc.).

    kind regards,
    Carl


    Carl Beck
    Clearwater, FL USA
    http://ZHome.com
    beck@becksystems.com
    Hello Carl,
    How refreshing! Thanks for being so open to new information.

    Fire away.
    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    I have never thought of the factory decklid spoiler as a "BRE" spoiler. Ron, the one that is on your car has the two bumps on the inner side, correct? I was under the impression that this was the first model of the spoiler. Is this true? Also, the smoother one would be a latter design? What was the function of the two bumps? I think these are great looking spoilers. I would prefer one in glossy gunmetal of the latter version.

    Alan, I have seen pictures of Fairlady Z's with ones that were painted body color and ones that were the color of the rear taillight panel (gunmetal). Was it a factory option to get them either way, a customer modification, or did it just happen by chance. I have seen early cars and late cars with the gunmetal or body color decklid spoiler so I am flabbergasted about their color's origin.

    Zhead, If my car was as original as yours, I would put the decklid spoiler on, but not the BRE spook as the decklid spoiler could technically be a factory option on your 240z through looking at the sports catalog. However, if you were to get the front spook I would recommend the european spec spook airdam as it is more original to the car. It is your car and I know you will do what your gut tells you. Make it your own by doing small period modifications with high quality parts like Lachlan said. Modifications of this nature will not detract from the beauty or originality of your car. Good luck with the car.

    Ben

    p.s. Factory spoiler, NOT BRE spoiler. BRE made it popular here in the states, but it is still a Factory spoiler.
    Last edited by v12horse; 06-02-2005 at 08:50 AM.
    "A real sports car chooses its owner because it has a soul. If you're chosen, you'll love it, and the more it requires care and maintenance the more you love it." -Mr. Morita (Z432 owner)

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  27. #27
    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Default

    The Z 432 spoiler was sold by BRE then later Interpart in the United States, and to my knowledge was not sold through Nissan. Nissan sold a spoiler that was a smoothed out version of the 432 spoiler (without) the 2 bumps.

    Pete Brock, a close friend of Mr. K probably got the rights to sell a part that was not offered in the united states in 1969 /70. The Spoiler on my car (which is a copy of the 432 spoiler) is the correct part for my replica, I have detailed photos from a Road and Track Magazine showing the two bumps.

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    Chris Wrote:
    >...snipped.....
    >In the mean time, you might go back to your Z Car magazines and read the
    >articles Ben Millspaugh, Phd,. Aerospace, wrote in 1995. That would be good >reading for anyone who is interested in Z car aerodynamics.



    Hi Chris (everyone)
    In reference to Dr. Millspaugh's, (IZCC #11695), 1995/96 articles in Z Car Magazine, you will note, I hope, that at the end of the article he lists his sources of information:

    "Sources: 1. CAR & DRIVER, May, 1974. The first generation Z-car tests referred to in "Aerodynamics, Part II" was the "Crisis Fighter Z Car", by Don Sherman. 2. For an in-depth technical coverage of automobile aerodynamics, the reader is urged to read "Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles" by Gino Sovran and Wolf-Heinrich Hucho in the Annual Revue of Fluid Mechanics, 1973."

    Reference #1 is the same article I referenced, and Dr. Millspaugh reported most of the same information in his discussion. While he was still with us, I did have several conversations with Jim Cook related to the aerodynamic effectiveness of the various spoilers, aid dams and ground effects packages available for the 240-Z as well; another source mentioned by Dr. Millspaugh for his article.

    I do agree that Dr. Millspaugh's articles would be good reading for anyone who is interested. Dr. Millspaugh has been kind enough to grant me permission, to put a copy of his articles on "the Z Car Home Page" for everyone to enjoy. (as the original Z Car Magazine is no longer in existence.. it isn't possible to get back issues from them, and there shouldn't be any copyright issues with them either.)

    I'll post the URL here when I get the article scanned and on-line.

    FWIW,
    Carl

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    Hello Everyone:

    For the people that are interested, the Article by Dr. Ben Millspaugh mentioned earlier can now be read on-line at: http://ZHome.com/ZAerodynamics/AeroMillspaughPart1.htm

    The entire article is broken into three parts, and I've put hyper-links to connect them. It's about 12 pages in total length.

    FWIW,
    Carl


    Carl Beck
    Clearwater, FL USA
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    Default JDM Pace Car Article on the Z Car Home Page

    Hi Alan (everyone)
    Per your offer to contribute the JDM Pace Car information and images to the Z Car Home Page; I've attempted to extract them from this thread, and created a first DRAFT of the article.

    Now it's your turn... Review the "DRAFT" and send edits directly to me at my e-mail address: beck@becksystems.com (I'll cut/paste the plain text into the html).

    The draft is not yet linked to the main index on "the Z Car Home" page... so the direct url is http://ZHome.com/Racing/JapanPace/FairladyZPace.htm


    thanks,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
    Clearwater, FL USA
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  31. #31
    Administrator bpilati's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambikiller240
    PatricK:

    I'd consider the BRE spook, but I'd be more inclined to buy one from Classic Datsun rather than this one on eBay. I think you'd get a better quality part. It could always be removed later without much effort if you wished to do so. Good Luck
    Hey, where is Bambikiller? I haven't seen him for ages. Something didn't happen to him did it?
    Bryan Pilati
    1971 Datsun 240Z (8/71; 920 paint)
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    I'm never serious unless I should be.

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