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Thread: The Internet Z Car Club (IZCC)

  1. #1
    Administrator bpilati's Avatar
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    Thumbs up The Internet Z Car Club (IZCC)

    Not too long ago there was a little scare that maybe the IZCC mailing list dying or dead. Well there erupted a lot of chatter about that.

    I remember when this club began, and I remember talking to Mike about it. Anyone around then will remember it was not an easy decision for Mike and for those of us that support his effort to start this club. It was feared that a split would breakup the Z community and fragment it permanently. Well it didn't happen that way, but lots of other sites have sprung up since then.

    I think and hope that Mike would agree that we should never let the IZCC lose it's status as the mother of all online Z clubs. I think we should do what we can to maintain its viability. What ever we should do will be a personal decision by each member. I just wanted to voice my opinion and bring this to the attention of those who may not know the history of the online Z community.
    Bryan Pilati
    1971 Datsun 240Z (8/71; 920 paint)
    IZCC #583; TZCC #16; CZC #110
    I'm never serious unless I should be.

  2. #2
    HLS30-079101 Zak's Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpilati
    I think we should do what we can to maintain its viability. What ever we should do will be a personal decision by each member.
    I visit that site regularly, but I'm not sure I'm getting what youre suggesting. What do you suggest happens to maintain its viability, and does that suggest that something is in fact happing to that site?

    Just asking for clarity.

    Zak

  3. #3
    Administrator bpilati's Avatar
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    Not the site so much as supporting the mailing list and its existence as an entity. I would like to see some improvements to the site, but that's up to Carl. The site was designed at a time when web browsers were competing, and so was made in such a way so all browsers could access it. That is no longer necessary, and a little sprucing up of the site wouldn't hurt. But it was thought by some that due the growth of other Z sites on the Internet , that people weren't coming to the Z Home very much anymore, or participating in the mailing list.
    Bryan Pilati
    1971 Datsun 240Z (8/71; 920 paint)
    IZCC #583; TZCC #16; CZC #110
    I'm never serious unless I should be.

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    Forums are just plain better than mailing lists. This coming from an admin of both a forum and a mailing list. I can tell you that there is probably 100x the traffic on the forum if not more.

    I think the ability to look for what you're interested in and not have 15,000 emails in your inbox makes the forum format more appealing. That said I don't know that an IZCC forum would be much different than the classiczcars.com forum. I just don't see a lot of distinction between the two user groups.
    Jon

  5. #5
    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Bryan, I agree - in theory. But in reality, I have tried to join the IZCC (and the mailing list) at least 6 times over the past 14 months that I have been a Z owner, both using the web form, as well as e-mailing Tony Fruzza (Membership Chairman) directly, at both his zhome.com and personal addresses. Has never worked. I haven't quite given up, I tried again within the past few weeks. Still nothing.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

  6. #6
    240Z Elec. Upgrade guy Zs-ondabrain's Avatar
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    It took me five tries and many letters to get a responce and get my Z registered on the list of Z owners. I personally just wanted to see my name up there with all the other 240Z owners. But it took a little effort on my part.

    It's not a regularly maintained site like CZC but the info is invalueble when it comes to Z car history. Keep trying Arne.

    Bryan, I understand the whole "viability" issue but as long as the site is still there and accessable, I would'nt worry about it too much.

    Dave.
    Rate my Z at Car Domain.com
    My 70' 240Z, Daily Driver

    My Parking Light and Headlight Upgrade Harness's at MotorSport Auto
    HLH - PLH - SCP - ZXP's at MSA *They accept PayPal!!*
    Headlight Upgrade Harness info here at ClassicZCar Club
    HLH info at CZCC Do a search for info on the other upgrades I offer.

  7. #7
    long time owner a7dz's Avatar
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    I belonged to the mail list years ago and quit because of the endless emails on subjects I had no interest. I still visit the site from time to time. But, quite frankly it does not have what I am looking for these days.

    I too have registered my car there only thing is the numbers are not correct tried to get it fixed no go so far oh well.
    Jim
    Bought my 70Z at 21 with 24,000 miles
    Still own it. Thirty plus years later.


  8. #8
    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zs-ondabrain
    It took me five tries and many letters to get a responce and get my Z registered on the list of Z owners. I personally just wanted to see my name up there with all the other 240Z owners. But it took a little effort on my part.
    I actually got both cars registered on Carl's site - the first took several tries, but the red car got posted with no drama. But actually joining the IZCC and getting a member number has proven to be far more difficult.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

  9. #9
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    I honestly see so much "difference" that I see no competition at all. I enjoy both sites for what each offers. I spend more time here, but am not a stranger over there, either. Loss of either one would not please me. Is there a way each could better promote the other? The Z-community needs both IMHO.
    See my Gallery .....
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=9676

    John

    CZCC #9676 - IZCC #14985
    1972 - HLS30-84646 - My driver - matching #'s - Nice ride
    1973 - HLS30-132236 - RIP - Reduced to boxes of spare parts in the garage

  10. #10
    Registered User Victor Laury's Avatar
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    Why not Merge? Why have two? Classic Z car is not a club. IZCC could adopt the forum as IZCC forum central. Keep the info site and mailing list intact. The ONLY issue I can see is IZCC is all models and ClassicZcars.com is an S30 forum.
    DatsunVic CZC1303
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  11. #11
    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    Bryan,
    Unfortunately you have just illustrated the one problem with the IZCC mail list. It isn't an active entity-that is not to say people don't R and R there, it is to say, the technology of a forum is more conducive to immediate interaction than a maillist. I have been an IZCC member for several years, and I visited the site regularly for years before I joined. I am on the list(as well as the roadster list) and I have always Read but never Responded.
    In looking at my own use of Z home, I find that I have used it as an encyclopedia, and this site as a the neighborhood pub where I can cary on a conversation conversation-but with a tape recorder function-I have even refered to Zhome in responding here.
    The technology of the IZCC maillisthas not kept up with the convenience of a true forum.
    Zhome has tremendous value in its information, but in all honesty, a maillist as a meeting place is like washing your car with water carried a bucket filled with a hand pump, while a forum based conversations are more akin to using a variable pressure washer at the local carwash. They will both get the job done, but given a choice...
    In order for the list to grow, it must evolve into something more readily interactive.
    I don't say any of this to critisize what is and what has been the IZCC only to call to attention that the goals have not changed, but the effective technology to attain them has.
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 12-07-2006 at 10:04 PM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

  12. #12
    Datsaholic Mr Camouflage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne
    I actually got both cars registered on Carl's site - the first took several tries, but the red car got posted with no drama. But actually joining the IZCC and getting a member number has proven to be far more difficult.
    Mainling lists, arent for me. I prefer forums, and this is the best Z forum I know of.

    Didn't Mike arrange something with the IZCC so that when you signed up here you got a IZCC number. I recall being told I had a IZCC number because I was a members here, but have never tried to join the IZCC. I cant find anywhere that tells me my number now though. Or maybe that was a CZCC number? Anyways, the important thing was I had an onion in my belt, as it was the style at the time.

    this might have been it: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...ht=IZCC+number

    It seems that feature got lost in an upgrade. I wonder if we still get discounts at places?
    www.nostalgictrio.com Skyline - Silvia - Fairlady Z
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    You can still look up your number in the member search. By location, name etc.
    things will only bother you if you let them.

    82 280zxt 4 spd auto
    73 240z--lsd, cv axles
    short throw info

  14. #14
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    Guys, I will never let IZCC die. The mailing list may be slow because of all the forums around these days. But, Carl's website is FULL of excellent information.

    If Carl ever needs help, a new host, or just moving the data around, I would be glad to help out and put it on our server for free.

    FYI, our local member, Carl Beck, is the founder of IZCC.

    -- Mike

    PS: Our member numbers are different than IZCC.

  15. #15
    Admin Mike's Avatar
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    I've also set up an article system on our site that supports HTML code. It is very simple to move data from one site to another using this system. Check out the samples here:

    http://www.classiczcars.com/modules.php?name=Content

    This method allows anyone to post an article and make it searchable in our system. The best thing about it is the HTML support -- which the forums do not support.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpilati
    Not too long ago there was a little scare that maybe the IZCC mailing list dying or dead. Well there erupted a lot of chatter about that.

    I remember when this club began, and I remember talking to Mike about it. Anyone around then will remember it was not an easy decision for Mike and for those of us that support his effort to start this club. It was feared that a split would breakup the Z community and fragment it permanently. Well it didn't happen that way, but lots of other sites have sprung up since then.

    I think and hope that Mike would agree that we should never let the IZCC lose it's status as the mother of all online Z clubs. I think we should do what we can to maintain its viability. What ever we should do will be a personal decision by each member. I just wanted to voice my opinion and bring this to the attention of those who may not know the history of the online Z community.
    Hi Bryan (everyone):
    It's kind of like the Big Bang - at first we were all in a fairly close, tight nit, small community "the Z Car On-Line community"(circa 85-95). Then as the universe expanded and time passed... we found ourselves spinning off in all directions, separated by light years, each in our own more unique model specific galaxy.

    So Bryan - regardless of what the original members of the IZCC wanted, forces beyond their control have indeed spit up the Z Community. I don't see it coming back together again. It is now way to big and way to diverse to be of interest as a whole, to the individuals.

    It has really very little to do with the technological "medium", and far more to do with Group Dynamics and Focus. Birds Of A Feather, Like Minded People, Shared Common Interest. We all like to be part of a "Group" and not of a "Crowd". When a Crowd gets too big, it splits up into smaller Groups again.. TRIBES...

    To a great extent, Nissan's evolution of the Z Car really set the stage. It only took time for the on-line group to grow large enough - that smaller model specific sites could spin off and achieve critical mass and begin to grow on their own. Today that very growth in total mass, is crushing what was once "the On-line Z Car Community". Almost without exception, individuals are primarily interested in one or two generations of the Z Car.. and not really at all interested in all generations, if it means spending too much time wading through too much space noise.

    It hasn't happened as completely in the physical world, but it's taking place there now as well. Where there were once "Z Car Clubs"... there are now "350-Z Clubs" and "350Z / G35 Clubs". I won't be at all surprised if we don't see "240-Z Clubs" started in the physical world as well, perhaps at the State Level more often than at the Local Level...

    "The Z Car List" does have a fairly large subscriber list - so a Post there should reach a fairly large number of Z Car People. Even though the list traffic is down to a crawl many of the subscribers wanted to keep it on-line. If nothing else, it's still a method to reach a broad range of Z Car Owners, and it does represent a huge knowledge base. ... So we'll maintain it.

    "The Z Car Home Page" and the "IZCC" are related but different entities...Traffic to ZHome are at an all time high and membership in the IZCC continues to grow - in spite of the apparent problems with the sign-up forms (which need to be better addressed).

    Just didn't want to confuse "the Z Car List" with the Z Car Home Page nor the Internet Z Car Club...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    Guys, I will never let IZCC die. The mailing list may be slow because of all the forums around these days. But, Carl's website is FULL of excellent information.

    If Carl ever needs help, a new host, or just moving the data around, I would be glad to help out and put it on our server for free.

    FYI, our local member, Carl Beck, is the founder of IZCC.

    -- Mike
    Hi Mike (everyone):
    First let me say thanks to Mike for his generous offer - and let everyone know it's not the first time he has made it. At the present time, an Internet Connection, Server Space and all support software are freely provided by several of our members. Nonetheless, as most of us know, things change over time. In fact we've moved/re-hosted both the Z Car List and the Z Car Home Page several times over the past 19 years. So I always keep offers like Mike's in mind ;-)

    WARNING - LONG COMMENTS FOLLOW - feel free to skip them if you have no interest. If you haven't anything else to do - it will give you something to read while your waiting...
    Carl B.



    As the three distinct parts of what we call the IZCC seem to have been intermixed in this discussion, I'd like to give everyone interested a little more background - to promote an understanding of each.

    Although I've been around for a long time - I'm certainly not the founder of the IZCC... only the longest running sucker, volunteered to support it.

    1) Bryan is referring to the e-mail based, Z Car Discussion Group that was originally started in 1987. We call that "The Z Car List" (and it's digest form - The Z Car Digest). The original List Server was put on-line by Bob Weissman (at Boeing I believe)... because his personal e-mail distribution or copy list was getting too large, and not everyone was copied on all e-mails and replies. Today "the Z Car List" is hosted free of charge by Texas A & M University - Extension Services Dept. It's an old unix based Majordomo system...(what is old is new again).

    2) The Internet Z Car Club - a virtual club started by John De Armond in 1992, among the subscribes to "the Z Car List" - with the main purpose of obtaining volume discounts for our virtual members - at various Dealerships and Vendor Locations. In the then spirit of the Internet - membership was FREE and Open to anyone on the Internet. We provided an on-line Membership Data Base - so that the vendors could easily verify membership in the virtual world (no physical membership cards at the physical Parts Counter).

    3) The Z Car Home Page - originally started in Australia in 1994 by Salman Shami (an M.E.) at the University of Melbourne. The Site was moved to Princeton University when Salaman was Graduated and lost access to the Universities Servers ..then moved to our own servers when Stefanos Damianakis (Ph.D.) was Graduated from Princeton (and lost access to the Princeton Servers)...Today hosted free of charge and free of any advertising by Elie Rosenblum (an ISP).

    In The Beginning:
    Prior to the Z Car List - ie. the actual List Server Software being put up by Bob in 87... many of us Z Car Owners in the Aerospace and Defense industry had been using the ARPA Net and NASA's PSCNI net - to keep in touch ( I started on the ARPA Net in 73). Personally, as I traveled to various Prime and Sub contractor sites around the Country - working on various A&D Programs and Projects - I keep track of the other Z Car owners I meet - and kept in touch via text messages (on TTY's between/among main frames and super-mini's) and later e-mail on Personal Computers.. We all needed technical questions answered, sources for parts and good used cars... and we all keep our own contact lists etc.

    As the DoD ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency) Net opened up to become what we know as the "Internet".. the next major user group was mostly located at Colleges and Universities - and usually first in the Engineering/Scientific Colleges (Post Grad. then Under Grad). There we found growing numbers of younger guys - that were just trying to keep their old Z's running as daily transportation... Loved their Z Cars.. but were far from having the funds to Race nor Restore them... Most of them simply could not afford to take their Z's to a professional mechanic, let alone a Dealership. So us older owners, found a group of younger owners that shared our love for the Z's.. and who provided an outlet for our "experience".. The main goal was to help them fix their own cars. (which is one of the main beauties of the 240-Z's).

    As the World Wide Web developed - Wide Area Information Servers (WAIS) and the World Wide Web Servers / Browsers followed...That and the continued opening of the Internet then brought the masses on line. By 1993 the IZCC had about 350 members, by 1995 a 1000 members. By 1999, 6000 members, by 2001, 10,000 members..by 2003, 13,000 and by 2006, 15,000. (about twice the membership of all Local Z Car Clubs combined).

    Of course the Internet then spread around the world - and today we have members in over 40 different Countries as well as within the USA.

    OK - So Lets Back Up to around 1995.
    Growing as we were - we wanted to more formally pull the three entities above - into a more comprehensive whole. So a rather large group of IZCC Members were volunteered to define the future direction of the "virtual club" and its resources.

    The Z Car Home Page: The Group decided that "the Z Car Home Page" should be a source of information for Z Car Owners. NOT a source of entertainment, not a commercial development... So , no "eye candy", and strictly "Internet Standards Based"... ie no Vendor Proprietary formats/software. As all data/information and articles were freely donated to the Z Car Home Page - the members did not want any commercial interest profiting, from the work so freely given. So NO ADVERTISING. Additionally, to preclude conflicts of interests between the members good and commercial vendors interests - we would take no Sponsorship Funding from commercial interests either.

    All information/data collected and possible future growth forecast - was then divided into seven main Sections - and the Sections then subdivided... the goal was to establish a structure within which one could to get to any information/data - within three levels of decomposition. KISS - keep it simple stupid - and get me to the information I'm looking for.!

    By 1998 - the Z Car List was sending about 65 to 85 Posts/Replies per day (to aprox. 2300 subscribers) - and many members were complaining that it was simply too much e-mail, most of which any one of them, didn't want to read. The use of Subject was supposed to allow everyone to easily sort, store or delete unwanted Posts/Replies within their e-mail clients. Nonetheless - Model or Interest specific sub-groups started to split off. Z31.com, 240-Z.org, HybridZ.org, TwinTurbo.net. That was then followed by all manor of attempts to start Z Car Sights/Forums.. ZCar.com, ZDriver.com etc etc.

    So at that point the Z Car Community had indeed fractured - split itself into smaller special interest groups. Nonetheless, IZCC Members like Bryan, wanted to keep the IZCC as a group that supported ALL Generations of Z Cars. As well as to preserve the huge knowledge base that subscribers to the Z Car List represented. It also provides a link to the broader Z Car Community than any individual model specific site can offer. So promotions for the annual ZCCA (Z Car Club Association) Annual Convention, the Motorsports Auto West Coast Nationals - and many Local Z Car Club shows and events - get published on the Z Car List as well.

    The IZCC Membership data base - provided the ability to find other Z Car People in local areas - and to reach them via E-Mail. In that manor several Local Z Car Clubs were formed in the Physical World. An unexpected side benefit of the data base.. but it turned out to be an important contribution to the Z Car Community at large.

    Today - I am reviewing the purpose, scope and usefulness of all three parts. We've talked about "the Z Car List"... and I'll be reconsidering the purpose and structure of the Z Car Home Page. It's original intent was to be a single source on the Web for Z Car related data, information etc. It was expected many years ago - that many people would volunteer to both build and maintain various Sections of the site. Indeed in many cases that happened... and in too many cases it didn't. So over the next year I'll be going through the site - and based on usage and access statistics - I'll be deleting or trimming a lot of sections/articles etc that are no longer supported by their originators - or which can be found elsewhere at the Model Specific Sights.

    Anyone can build their own Web Sites today (something not really anticipated in 95) - and do so in any manor they wish. With ever improved search engines, anyone can find just about anything any where. So the need for a centralized data/information repository seems at first glance to be to have been made obsolete...The problem then becomes Quantity vs Quality. A centralized focus of thousands of members, assures that the data/information held there is reviewed by many and corrected where necessary. Something all to any individual sites lack completely...

    It is an evolving universe...Being somewhat older and I hope wiser now - I've found that slower, better thought out moves yeild the best results in the long run. Nothing is going to change too quickly.. but change is a part of the evolution in the Information Age.

    I appreciate all your thoughts and comments -

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

  18. #18
    Supporting Member =Enigma='s Avatar
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    Very intresting to hear the evolution of the various Z car information sites/service in relation to the growth of the Internet and the effect that this had on the Z car community. Thanks for sharing this history with us and for managing to keep the Z Car Home site up all these years. I hope that it continues to be the quality source of information that I have found it to be since I became a member of the community just over a year ago.

    Cheers,

    Adam
    =Enigma=
    CZCC#9360
    4/73 - HLS30-156236

    My name is Adam and I'm a Zeeoholic!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by a7dz
    I belonged to the mail list years ago and quit because of the endless emails on subjects I had no interest. I still visit the site from time to time. But, quite frankly it does not have what I am looking for these days.

    I too have registered my car there only thing is the numbers are not correct tried to get it fixed no go so far oh well.
    Hi Jim:
    Copied below is the data dump from the - on line input form - as I receive it from the Web Site. When you or anyone fill out the form, the raw data from the input form - is e-mailed to me.

    I then extract the relevant data - and enter it into the html document - that displays the Classic Z Car Registers.

    NOTE only input forms that are COMPLETE make it to the Classic Z Car Register... Lots of people fail to input their Original Engine Serial Numbers - - so nothing happens with that input...(not the case with your input - it was complete).

    The data as received looks like this:

    - - - Begin copy - - - - - - - -
    Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:44:12 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
    From: "Jim Coffey"
    To:
    Subject: Form posted from Microsoft Internet Explorer.

    The following document was sent as an embedded object but not referenced by the email above:

    temp=temp&mizccno=11142&mORIG=&mvin=HLS30-06160&bdmonth=6&bdyear=1970&colorcode=918&ext-int-color=Orange%2Fblack&engine_ser=009502&mcomm=Car+was+originally+purchased+from+Hoyt+Datsu n+or+Hoyt+Motors+do+not+remember+which+one+in+Aubu rn%2CWA+by+an+Air+Force+Captain.+He+traded+it+in+D ec.+of+1975+at+Monroe+Street+Datsun+in+Spokane+Wa. +I+bought+it+Dec.1975+and+have+owned+it+ever+since .+%0D%0A&mname=James&mlname=Coffey&memail=a7dzcar@thewiredcity.net&mcity=Tacoma&mstate=WA&mctry=USA&mpub=yes+please

    - - - - end copy - -- - -

    I drop out the ASCII characters - and get it ready to put into the html document.
    IZCC# 11142
    HLS30-06160
    06 / 70
    918 Orange
    L24 009502
    James Coffey
    Tocama, WA USA
    a7dzcar@thewiredcity.net

    Searching my e-mail files for either your Name, or the VIN - I have received only the one input from you shown above. (did find several e-mails from you related to springs) If you'll let me know what numbers are not correct - I'll be glad to fix them.

    Checking the IZCC Membership Data Base - I do see that your e-mail address is different there, from the one listed on your input form for the Classic Z Car Register.

    You can e-mail me directly at beck@becksystems.com

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

  20. #20
    long time owner a7dz's Avatar
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    Carl;

    It did get updated last December my mistake. I remember sending you the L 24 serial number as I started the rebuild thanksgiving last year.
    Jim
    Bought my 70Z at 21 with 24,000 miles
    Still own it. Thirty plus years later.


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