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Thread: I found #62150(something like that)?

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    Zcarkrazy thefastestz's Avatar
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    Default I found #62150(something like that)?

    I found a 70 240z at a shop on the way home from school.
    The owner said that some one left it there years ago running to replace the struts and never came back for it.
    Maybe I will go back and visit and take some pics.

    Some of the things i noticed were that the air cleaner was gone and there were no vents on the rear hatch..

    As for the rust issue I'll just have to pull up carpet and post the pics.
    Maybe he will let it go for 200 or so.
    I don't have the money but if there is hardly any rust i know maybe someone else
    could save this early Z car.

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    Default Re: I found #62150(something like that)?

    Originally posted by thefastestz
    I found a 70 240z ...........

    SN# 62150 would not be a 1970, it would be a 1972 240Z (manufactured around 1/72).

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    Zcarkrazy thefastestz's Avatar
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    Ahhhhh............so this is a case of id plates switched.

    And I was wondering why it had no hatch vents.
    My 73 was 153000 somthing so they made that many?!!
    Or did they change the numbering system?

    I know you sure would know about this matter too.

    And I thought I actually found a real early Z

    Well now I know. I guess watch out for a 72 with 70 ID tags coming from corpus christi, tx!!

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    Default 240/260/280Z Calendar Year Production Figures

    Originally posted by thefastestz
    Ahhhhh............so this is a case of id plates switched.

    And I was wondering why it had no hatch vents.
    My 73 was 153000 somthing so they made that many?!!
    Or did they change the numbering system?

    I know you sure would know about this matter too.

    And I thought I actually found a real early Z

    Well now I know. I guess watch out for a 72 with 70 ID tags coming from corpus christi, tx!!
    According to Nissan Motors - as stated in the "DATSUN 280ZX" book published in 1978 by Nissan Motor Company.

    This table represents "units produced" within each calendar year - not units sold during the Model Year. ie. 500 240Z's were produced in calendar year 1969, however they were for the most part sold in the North American Market as 1970 Model Year 240Z's. Likewise there were aprox 10,500 1970 Model Year 240Z's sold in North America, the remainder of the 1970 production were sold as 1971 Model Year 240Z's. (the next Model Year cars, were usually introduced in advance of the calendar year here in the U.S. ie Sept./Oct. 1970 introduction of 1971 Model year cars)


    ***********USA*****Canada****Australia*****Great Britain*****Others
    1969--------------500----------0----------------0---------------------0-----------------0
    1970----------16,215-------1201----------- 319-------------------2-----------------3
    1971----------33,684-------3440------------894-----------------264---------------89
    1972----------52,628-------4020------------362-----------------549--------------494
    1973----------45,588-------2537------------783----------------1,114-------------430
    1974----------40,172-------1370------------442-----------------129----------------1
    1974 2+2------9,499--------766-------------599-----------------320--------------153
    1975----------40,216-------1153------------198-------------------20---------------23
    1975 2+2----11,594--------329------------742-----------------139--------------493
    1976----------45,766--------876------------385-------------------00---------------07
    1976 2+2-----13,792-------351-----------1615-----------------444--------------454
    1977-----------54,594-----1005--------------98------------------312--------------63


    PS: Boy, I sure wish Mikey would allow ".doc" attachments. Formatting tables like this by hand/eye is extremely tedious.

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    Deftly daft Alfadog's Avatar
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    Ooooh, finally, figures for Aus. Thanks mate

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    philo "Z" opher Zedrally's Avatar
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    Alfa,
    Those Aussie figures are pretty "rubbery

    That 2+2 I picked up was a 73 production model, I'll concede it most probably was sold in 74, but the plates identify it as a 73 production.

    Also where are the local market [Japan] numbers, in others, I think not?

    Sadly we may never know the true figures and an educated guess is the best one can hope for. [unless Alan has access to more reliable figures]?
    Mike of the Mire

    73 240Z Rally
    77 260Z Touring

    Bogged but not beaten

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    Deftly daft Alfadog's Avatar
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    Yeah, I undestand that the figures are probably not totally 100% correct, but unfortunately those figures are the only ones I've got so make do eh.

    They give you a good general feeling to the numbers at least, but yeah it would be nice to have Japan included...................

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    I'm afraid the figures from that "Datsun 280ZX" book are just nonsense, and cause more confusion than anything else. Its a real shame that Nissan ( USA? ) could publish something like that without making a better job of it.

    One of the main problems is that it is totally ignoring all the non-"240Z" models. I can't get my head around this. Why do people always talk about the "240Z" without including all the other models of S30-series Z? The HS30 and HLS30 were only TWO types of S30-series Z. I think its a big mistake to think of the 240Z model as being anything other than a PART of the S30-series Z range.

    I also think the American "model year" system tends to cloud the issue of actual manufacturing date. I'm personally more interested in the actual date that the car went through the Factory than the "Model Year" that the US-market assigned to it ( although I do understand WHY this system was created ). Lots of production and sales figures mix these up, and it makes things even harder to understand. You can see this confusion from the amount of questions that arise over the actual dates of these cars.

    I'm sorry to say that I have still not seen any DEFINITIVE production figures that include ALL the iterations of the S30 model range. I have several different sets of figures for the Japanese market, let alone any other markets and models .

    Alan T.

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    Deftly daft Alfadog's Avatar
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    Well thanks for the input Alan, I certainly wont take the data for 100% accurate, but it's all I've got to hold onto

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    Allen T Wrote:
    AT> I'm afraid the figures from that "Datsun 280ZX" book are just nonsense,
    AT> and cause more confusion than anything else. Its a real shame that
    AT> Nissan ( USA? ) could publish something like that without making a better
    AT> job of it.

    Hi Allen (everyone)
    I'd be interested to know why or what you believe is "nonsense". There is an old saying that might apply here - "all things taken within context". Looking at the intent/purposes of the 280ZX book I thought it was pretty well done.

    Taken within the context of the published data - I find the figures line up pretty well with what we are finding in the real world. They may/may not be "exact" but seem to be pretty close when looking at Production vs Sales.

    AT> One of the main problems is that it is totally ignoring all the non-"240Z"
    AT> models. I can't get my head around this. Why do people always talk about
    AT> the "240Z" without including all the other models of S30-series Z?
    AT> The HS30 and HLS30 were only TWO types of S30-series Z.

    I believe there are lots of reasons. One may disagree with them - but they are there and they are reasonable IMHO.

    1. First and foremost - the Datsun 240-Z was specified, designed and intended to be a Sports/GT for the US Market. No doubt Mr. Matsuo always thought of it as a Japanese Car (he lived in Japan;-), - but even he admits the US requirements drove the design and the US was the market it was intended for. The fact that a few were produced for the Domestic Market and a few more were shipped to other Countries doesn't change that fact.

    2. We can argue about the exact numbers - but the fact is something close to 90% of the S30's chassis were built for, and sold to, the US market.

    AT> I think its a big mistake to think of the 240Z model as being anything
    AT> other than a PART of the S30-series Z range.

    Well that's one way to look at it. I'd suggest that conceptually, it should be thought of the other way - ie. the 10% of production of the "S30" chassis - that accounted for "all other models" was a small part, a side track, a variance of, a side note to - the production and sales history of the Datsun 240-Z.

    Looked at by the numbers... on average for 48 months (1970,71,72,73) the HLS30 production averaged 3,319 units per month - while the entire production of the HS30 models totaled 4,039. Rounding the numbers for discussion - that's 160,000 vs 4,000 or you can see that the HS30's accounted for a mere 2.5%.

    AT> I also think the American "model year" system tends to cloud the issue of actual AT> manufacturing date.

    I don't understand why you would think that. The US is the only country that required the Date of Manufacture be fixed to the car. At least our system gives us the month and year our cars were actually produced.

    For the HS30's it's pretty easy to compare known production dates with the original engines installed and arrive at a pretty close "production date".

    The Fairlady's are harder to pin down - and at present we don't have a large enough statistical sample to derive much information from either. However Nissan's Technical Service Bulletins do offer some clues.

    AT> I'm personally more interested in the actual date that the
    AT> car went through the Factory than the "Model Year" that the
    AT> US-market assigned to it

    I agree that production dates are important and interesting - but here we get back to the context - they are important and interesting only when associated with some production or design change for example (yes/no). A production date by itself doesn't tell you much does it? - unless you associate it with some other useful data/facts.

    AT> ( although I do understand WHY this system was created ). Lots of
    AT> production and sales figures mix these up, and it makes things even
    AT> harder to understand. You can see this confusion from the amount
    AT> of questions that arise over the actual dates of these cars.

    I understand what your saying and that is indeed somewhat true - I think the core problem is all to often people are too loose with terms - they use them incorrectly or they don't pay specific enough attention to them. People mix/intermix/confuse "Production Numbers" with "Sales Numbers"... Nissan kept them pretty well defined, even if a lot of the data they published were not 100% accurate.

    That is one reason we started documenting VIN's, Production Dates and Original Engine Serial Numbers years ago.

    For example that Nissan 280ZX Book - clearly states that it is giving "Production Volume" numbers by year - not Sales Numbers - and it's showing a graphic example of the number of "Exports" vs "Total Production"... While it isn't 100% accurate - it does give one a pretty good picture of the over-all story.

    AT> I'm sorry to say that I have still not seen any DEFINITIVE production
    AT> figures that include ALL the iterations of the S30 model range.
    AT> I have several different sets of figures for the Japanese market,
    AT> let alone any other markets and models .

    Yes - it is too bad for those of us interested in the history of the Z Car. On the other hand Nissan and their Dealers were/are in business to sell cars and make profit. I think it's too bad no one outside Nissan was interested in the history of the Z - at the time it was being produced - so records could be verified at the time and kept.

    Nissan's Policy is to not keep records past the point of meeting legal requirements for record keeping. Saves them money and records are only used to prosecute law suits;-).

    On the other hand, if all that factual data were readily and easily available -this subject would not hold our curiosity nor drive our interest to search for the trivia ;-)


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

    Carl Beck
    Clearwater,FL USA
    http://ZHome.com

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Carl Beck
    Hi Allen (everyone)
    I'd be interested to know why or what you believe is "nonsense". There is an old saying that might apply here - "all things taken within context". Looking at the intent/purposes of the 280ZX book I thought it was pretty well done.

    Taken within the context of the published data - I find the figures line up pretty well with what we are finding in the real world. They may/may not be "exact" but seem to be pretty close when looking at Production vs Sales.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    The biggest problem would have to be with that category just tacked onto the end as "Others" like an afterthought. The figures in this category are quite clearly wrong ( as, I suspect, is that first figure of a nice and cosy 500 ) as they must surely include the Japanese Domestic market "HS30" models that were launched in Japan in October 1971. The Factory started churning out hundreds of cars a week for this market, and the figures from the list are obviously wide of the mark.

    The biggest problem, as I have pointed out, is this idea of on the one hand making a chart for "Production" of the "240Z / 260Z / 280Z" models ( I presume this must include ALL markets? ) but on the other hand ignoring all the other Domestic models of S30, S30S, PS30, PS30-SB, HS30 and HS30-H et al. Such a list might start to make sense if it attempted to give accurate or even semi-accurate figures for one market or one model / spec. type. To include such a wide range of models in such a wide range of markets, but then to ignore half of the Domestic market, makes it sound perfect for American consumption. Like I've said before - that's looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Perverse really.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Carl>
    1. First and foremost - the Datsun 240-Z was specified, designed and intended to be a Sports/GT for the US Market. No doubt Mr. Matsuo always thought of it as a Japanese Car (he lived in Japan;-), - but even he admits the US requirements drove the design and the US was the market it was intended for. The fact that a few were produced for the Domestic Market and a few more were shipped to other Countries doesn't change that fact.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    There you go again! Talking about the "Datsun 240-Z" as something that was specified and designed as something quite separate and distinct from any other models of Z car that were in gestation at the same time. You seem to be unable to stop yourself from thinking in this way. It really is most odd.
    Its also most odd the way that you simply write off the Domestic Market, even to the point where you try to make the Japanese market sound smaller than almost every other market. Is this part of your philosophy of treating the non "240Z" models as non-relevant to the history of the Z car? As for Mr Matsuo, I think you might like to take a little bit more notice of what he REALLY thinks, and to read between the lines a little. He too now speaks from the present, a present where we can see what a success the HLS30 model and its successors were in the US market. When I spoke to him, it was quite clear that he STILL thinks of the car as a Japanese car. I can't imagine Matsuo san hearing that "American Sports Car" quote without feeling somewhat offended.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Carl>
    2. We can argue about the exact numbers - but the fact is something close to 90% of the S30's chassis were built for, and sold to, the US market.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    Big Mac philosophy again. Presumably anything that does not sell well is an automatic failure, and therefore anything aimed at a potentially small market is a also a failure? Only if you are talking purely in economics, in which case anything that sells well in the USA will automatically be judged an economic success, even if there is a version that is ergonomically and dynamically better?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Carl>
    Well that's one way to look at it. I'd suggest that conceptually, it should be thought of the other way - ie. the 10% of production of the "S30" chassis - that accounted for "all other models" was a small part, a side track, a variance of, a side note to - the production and sales history of the Datsun 240-Z.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    You seem to infer again that quantity outweighs any other parameter. In this case, any model that sold more in the USA than in its own Domestic market will have to classify its Domestic sales as a "small part / side track / side note to" the US market. Maybe its easy to think that way when you are sitting in the USA, but I can't see how anyone outside the US could see it that way.
    How does this talk of quantity sold relate to the DESIGN, GESTATION and PROTOTYPES of the Z car? I can't see what it leads to, except the obvious.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Carl>
    Looked at by the numbers... on average for 48 months (1970,71,72,73) the HLS30 production averaged 3,319 units per month - while the entire production of the HS30 models totaled 4,039. Rounding the numbers for discussion - that's 160,000 vs 4,000 or you can see that the HS30's accounted for a mere 2.5%.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    Why are you just comparing the HS30 with the HLS30, and what does it mean? What about all the other models?! If its all just a game of numbers sold, then we KNOW the HLS30 and its successors will "win". But what if the HLS30 model had not sold so well? The story of the car's gestation and manufacture would not be any different until the lack of sales started to bite. That's why your point of view is so perverse. It seems to revolve solely around how many cars of a certain type were sold.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Carl>
    Yes - it is too bad for those of us interested in the history of the Z Car. On the other hand Nissan and their Dealers were/are in business to sell cars and make profit. I think it's too bad no one outside Nissan was interested in the history of the Z - at the time it was being produced - so records could be verified at the time and kept.

    Nissan's Policy is to not keep records past the point of meeting legal requirements for record keeping. Saves them money and records are only used to prosecute law suits;-).
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    I still cannot believe that there is nothing that has not been dug up yet. Even in just the last year I have been on the receiving end of some pretty amazing information that I thought I would never get. Most of this is related to the activities of the Competition Department at Nissan, and especially in relation to the domestic "Works" race and rally cars. I was told many times that this information did not exist. The information exists, but the main problem has been to find a person within the organisation that has both the will and the authority to dig it out. In some cases, the information is no longer in the hands of Nissan themselves. The easiest thing for them to say is that records have not been kept, or have been disposed of. This blind-alley approach easily gets rid of probing journalists or over-enthusiastic enquirers.

    I'm sure that you ( like me ) cannot believe that you know just about all there is to know about this subject. My 'pet' area is the Works race and rally activities, and almost every day I learn something new that leads on to another question or poses another conundrum. This is fun! I get the feeling that a lifetime of research will still leave a majority of my questions unanswered. I could not really say that for any of the other cars that I have owned in the past.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Carl>
    On the other hand, if all that factual data were readily and easily available -this subject would not hold our curiosity nor drive our interest to search for the trivia ;-)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan>
    Absolutely.

    Carl, have you ever been to Japan? When I read your bibliography I see very little mention of Japanese resources. I would recommend this line of enquiry rather than reading certain Z-related books and magazine articles from the UK. It might help you with your perspective.

    And what does FWIW mean?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alan T.

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    Registered User Zed@Work's Avatar
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    Default Re: 240/260/280Z Calendar Year Production Figures

    Originally posted by BambiKiller240
    ...PS: Boy, I sure wish Mikey would allow ".doc" attachments. Formatting tables like this by hand/eye is extremely tedious.
    You can format the text in Word and then use the [code ] tags to post it here, but you still may have to do a little tweaking.
    Code:
     		USA		Canada		Australia	Great Britain	Others 
    
    1969		500		0		0		0		0 
    1970		16,215		1201		319		2		3 
    1971		33,684		3440		894		264		89 
    1972		52,628		4020		362		549		494 
    1973		45,588		2537		783		1,114		430 
    1974		40,172		1370		442		129		1 
    1974 2+2	9,499		766		599		320		153 
    1975		40,216		1153		198		20		23 
    1975 2+2	11,594		329		742		139		493 
    1976		45,766		876		385		00		07 
    1976 2+2	13,792		351		1615		444		454 
    1977		54,594		1005		98		312		63

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    Default Re: Re: 240/260/280Z Calendar Year Production Figures

    Originally posted by Zed@Work
    [B]You can format the text in Word and then use the [code ] tags to post it here, but you still may have to do a little tweaking.
    So I just include the data within the "code" tags as you did, correct? You are speaking to a computer (semi) illiterate person.

    i.e. what I've learned has been 99.9% trail and error.

    Thanks for the info. If I have misunderstood, please correct me. Thanks!

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    Default

    Originally posted by HS30-H
    And what does FWIW mean?
    For What It's Worth

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    Thanks Bambi,

    Now I'm going to be thinking about Buffalo Springfield every time I see it.

    Alan T.

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    Default Ok but what does?

    Ok but what does IMHO mean then?

    What I've extracted from the above conversation is that the 240z was designed for the US requirements.
    The Fairlady 240z or Fairlady Z was designed for the japanese home market with the smaller capacity L20 it would suit the tax laws on the motor vehicle wouldn't it?
    The 432 and 432R were for the people who wanted the extra bit of performance and a high end model.

    The fact that so many HLS30 models were produced suggests that the 240z was designed for the US market. It was the biggest market after all and from bits and pieces I've read the Z concept was originally gonna be a 4cylinder Roadster but to sell a roadster US laws were changing and making it difficult and the US buyers liked larger capacity engines like V8's.

    Anyway that's what I make of it for now I'm glad I'm one of the Lucky 300 in Aus that own a HS30 prefix car.

    To add to what you guys were saying before I find that the Z has so much unknown or difficult to obtain information about it's history or model differences and activities that it does make me more interested.
    I don't think I know of any other cars that could possibly keep me this glued to a post .
    Do other enthusiasts have this problem ie: Ford followers?

    I suppose the unexpected success of the Z made all of the smaller details easier to loose and focus was put on the more important things. Japan had just started to get there industrial industry underway and lots of documentation and quality procedures etc.. were not implemented that's my guess anyway.

    I think I'll leave it there I'm very tired now and probably not making proper sense.

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    Default Re: Ok but what does?

    Originally posted by Gav240z
    Ok but what does IMHO mean then?

    In My Humble Opinion.

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    Hi Alan:
    I believe the "Other" category - in the 280ZX book is other countries outside Japan. The
    chart is intended to show numbers and the countries cars were exported too. Datsun
    240-Z's were sold "new" by authorized dealers in Central and South America. They were
    built to meet a common Central and South American standard. (which had far fewer
    emission control and safety requirements).


    I believe "Others" included: Colombia, Brazil, Argentina and Costa Rica.

    Looking at the VIN's and build dates of Z's we have gathered over the years we find
    blocks of numbers missing from the series of US cars. Usually we find these missing
    numbers on cars somewhere else in the world.

    All we can gather is a statistical sampling - however based on what we have, when we
    add up the numbers and subtract differences of units between the end of one series
    and the start of the next, the add the numbers outside the US... the total production of
    240-Z's comes pretty close to the total in that chart.

    FWIW,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
    Clearwater,FL USA
    http://ZHome.com

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    ALAN WROTE:
    AT>...lots snipped...
    AT> As for Mr Matsuo, I think you might like to take a little bit
    AT> more notice of what he REALLY thinks, and to read between
    AT> the lines a little. He too now speaks from the present, a present
    AT> where we can see what a success the HLS30 model and its successors
    AT> were in the US market. When I spoke to him, it was quite clear that
    AT> he STILL thinks of the car as a Japanese car. I can't imagine Matsuo san
    AT> hearing that "American Sports Car" quote without feeling somewhat offended.
    AT>...lots snipped...

    Hello Alan (everyone):
    I wanted to follow up on your comment - sorry for the delay.

    I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Matsuo and while his English was limited
    and my Japanese was all but non-existent I felt that we had enough common
    ground to provide basic communication. (I meet him at Mr. K's induction into
    the Automotive Hall of Fame in 98.)

    I believe I said in an earlier Post that there was no doubt Mr. Matsuo was rightly
    proud of the "Japanese Car" that Nissan produced. Mr. Matsuo is Japanese and
    Nissan is a Japanese Corporation.

    In the technical sense of the term - the Nissan/Datsun 240-Z is a "Japanese Car".
    But that completely misses the point....

    The Point Is:
    Until the Datsun PL510 was designed and delivered - Nissan/Datsun were making the
    same mistake as their competition. They insisted on tying to sell "Japanese Cars" to
    Americans.

    With the design and build of the Datsun PL510 all that began to change. With the
    PL510 Mr. Katayama started to get the cars his American customers wanted. Cars with
    more room for Americans and more power to keep up on American streets and
    highways. Mr. Katayama's battle with the home offices is well documented in several
    books related to the history of Nissan and the Japanese auto industry. Mr. K forced a
    sea change in Corporate Japan as well as in the US.

    Now enter Mr. Matsuo. Taking over the newly established Sports Car Design Section...
    and having witnessed the total rejection by top management of the "Goertz A550X"..
    I believe he was quite wise to NOT DO what Goertz had done.

    Let's look at what Mr. Goertz did. In a nut shell Goertz designed a car he wanted too.

    Let's look at what Mr. Matsuo did. In a nut shell he Led a Design Team - that
    designed a car Americans Wanted. (Based on input and direction from US Marketing
    and Mr. K).

    Mr. Goertz makes the constant argument that the only way to design an outstanding
    automobile - is to have a single "Designer" do the entire job - as he did on the BMW 507.
    (documented in all too many interviews and articles over the past 50 years). Mr. Goerz
    also made the arugment to Nissan that if they wanted to succeed in the US market -
    they had to have a US Designer do the job. (Yes, Goertz is a US Citizen and his office
    was in New York - he was/is a US Designer.)

    Mr. Matsuo proved Mr. Goertz wrong on both counts. Mr. Matsuo didn't design the
    240-Z - he Lead A DESIGN TEAM - and the output from that team effort was an
    outstanding automobile.

    Perhaps even more importantly - Mr. Matsuo proved that a Japanese Designer could
    design an "American Car". Mr. Matsuo also proved that when "Customer Requirements"
    are understood and then used to "DRIVE" the design - the outcome will most often be a
    smashing success.

    It is my firm belief that calling the Datsun 240-Z "An American Sports/GT Designed and
    Built In Japan" - is the highest complement a Designer could receive. Mr. Matsuo and his
    team should have receive the Deming Award For Design. (one of the most coveted
    awards in Japan).

    It is my firm belief that Mr. Matsuo put his cultural and personal biases aside and
    accepted the challenge of designing a "Sports/GT for America". Had he not been able
    to do that, he would have failed in the same manor that Goertz did.

    IMHO to say that Mr. Matsuo designed a "Japanese Sports/GT" that simply sold well in
    the US - is to greatly understate his accomplishment; and to lower him to the level of
    Mr. Goertz. (driven by his ego rather than being driven by the challenge of "Design").


    FWIW,
    Carl

    Carl Beck
    beck@becksystems.com
    http://ZHome.com

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