Let's show vintage racing pictures. I'll start.

[conedodger]

Altec-Lancing 914 and Bob Sharp Racing Z...

[rxsleeper]

Here is one that is not quite as old. The checkerboard Z is the builder/driver of my toy.

[26th-Z]

Bob Sharp at the Paul Whiteman Trophy races in Daytona - August 1971

[george71z]

Various early 70's from Lime Rock, Conn.

[preith]

Hi Rob, good to hear from you again. Heh, my first thought was current pics from the vintage racing scene, but I see it's vintage-vintage In that case greyghost has a treasure of old photos (and new) in his gallery, I took the liberty of weeding some out:

[Mike B]

I like the U-Haul with a couple of couches and 20 people on the roof in some of the pics.

-Mike

[YellowFever]

Various early 70's from Lime Rock, Conn.

Had to change this one a bit, george...

[conedodger]

That's what I'm talking about! This is turning into a good thread...

Hi Phil! Long time no chat... How is the frozen North? Phil and I have known of each other since I was a Minnesotan... I had to leave when my nieghbor Jesse ran for Governor. Of course, now I have the Governator!

[26th-Z]

From the 1973 American Road Race of Champions, Road Atlanta, Georgia.

I sure would like to keep this thread "vintage - vintage". Maybe we can entice Alan into posting some pics from racing around the world.

[preith]

That's what I'm talking about! This is turning into a good thread...

Hi Phil! Long time no chat... How is the frozen North? Phil and I have known of each other since I was a Minnesotan... I had to leave when my nieghbor Jesse ran for Governor. Of course, now I have the Governator!

The frozen north is just that, thankfully not as bad as last year precip wise but still below normal temps Actually, I believe we first spoke shortly after your migration to San Fran, you were very courteous! That was ages ago, I was a "wet behind the ears" 20 yr old then.

Anyway, I weeded out a few more good ones from greyghost's gallery:
here's Dan Parkinson's car:


Here's Logan @ Blackhawk shortly after purchasing it, pre-yellow paint and still wearing BRE regalia. On a side note I feel very fortunate to race at the same track in a very similar car. On more than a few occasions some of the "old timers" there have compared mine to his, it's flattering.



This one blows me away, I've raced against it at Blackhawk:


Not vintage-vintage but I feel it's worth an exception, here's the same car a few years ago at blackhawk wearing the same paint!

[Carl Beck]

Anyway, I weeded out a few more good ones from greyghost's gallery:
here's Dan Parkinson's car:

That would be the 280Z body he used, after totalling the BRE #46 240-Z. Dan said he used many of the parts off #46 to build this car.

Thanks for the pictures...

Carl B.
IZCC #260

[MikeW]

In early 1984 I went to an SCCA race at Roebling road with a girlfriend's father to "work" as part of the pit crew for a local doctor who was racing. This was before I bought my 240Z and as a senior in high school I didn't really know anything about Datsuns. When walking around the infield someone pointed out to me that the car in the attached picture was raced by Jim Fitzgerald. I didn't know who he was but they said he raced with and was friends with Paul Newman. I knew who he was so I took a picture of the car. It's in black and white because at the time I was processing my own film. I'd completely forgotten about it until this thread came up and had to dig through a box of old pictures in my crawl space.

As an aside, here's just one of the cars that the doctor owned at that time:

http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages...FE-250GTO-3387

[Carl Beck]

Hi Mike:
Great - I was looking for pictures of that car a few weeks ago... thanks, I'll add it to my collection...

FWIW,
Carl B.

[TomoHawk]

I'll add in my car since Will and Chris didn't make it to the track day at the last convention.

[26th-Z]

That's exactly what this thread is intended to do, Mike! Let's have a little fun and dig into those old boxes in the attic!

Here's Daytona at the 24-hour some long time ago. I don't remember who this is. Running in GTU.

[preith]

That's exactly what this thread is intended to do, Mike! Let's have a little fun and dig into those old boxes in the attic!

Here's Daytona at the 24-hour some long time ago. I don't remember who this is. Running in GTU.

Great pic! I'm fairly sure that's the HLS30 00008 car, originally owned by Bob Speakman, currently by Tom Bork of NY, here's the zhome page:
http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/Bork.htm
here was some discussion on hybridz on the accuracy of Bob's actual race results, but he did participate nonetheless.

[26th-Z]

There is a web site that chronicles race results (racingsportscars.com) and I wouldn't be so sure of what is written about the car on Zhome. (Sorry Carl) It is not listed on the entry list in 1975 and it didn't finish 4th overall - George Dyer's 911 RSR did in 1975. In 1976, car #81 was a 911S.

I didn't want to say anything, but I do remember talking to the guy because the car was a very low serial # and that would have interested me at the time because I owned 26th. "At the time" would have been 1984 and car #81 shows up on the entry list for the 24-hours of Daytona as a 240Z driven by John Saucier, Ronnie Franklin, and Chuck Gravel. It was gridded 42nd, as I remember, and I don't recall the car finishing. Perhaps it did, 4th in class perhaps?

[Carl Beck]

There is a web site that chronicles race results (racingsportscars.com) and I wouldn't be so sure of what is written about the car on Zhome. (Sorry Carl) It is not listed on the entry list in 1975 and it didn't finish 4th overall - George Dyer's 911 RSR did in 1975. In 1976, car #81 was a 911S.

Hi Chris:
Dr. Bork and Mr. Speakman provided the history - and it may indeed have been off the tops of their head.

Looking at the Site you reference - it looks like the sentence should say;

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 26th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class.

Sponsored by Bondurant Racing School, Bob shared driving duties with Chris Doyle and John Maffucci.

It looks like the first Z to finish a 24 hour race at Dayton was Bruce Mabrito and Jack Steel's 240Z in 1975. 26th O/A and 7th in GT-U.

Interesting site - I'd like to see where their source data comes from - a lot of it seems to be contributed by specators...I wonder if they had access to Daytona's actual records...

FWIW,
Carl B.

[peterc]

Great thread. Phil, wonder how hard it was to change the steering on #28 from LHS to RHS? .

Cheers,

p

[Colin240z]

Great thread...

Attached is a shot my Dad took back in the day...Bob Sharp GTU 260Z/280Z

The scene is the Lime Rock paddock...replete with 'period' haircuts and mustaches

Cheers,
Colin

[26th-Z]

Hi Chris:
Dr. Bork and Mr. Speakman provided the history - and it may indeed have been off the tops of their head.

Looking at the Site you reference - it looks like the sentence should say;

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 26th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class.

Sponsored by Bondurant Racing School, Bob shared driving duties with Chris Doyle and John Maffucci.

It looks like the first Z to finish a 24 hour race at Dayton was Bruce Mabrito and Jack Steel's 240Z in 1975. 26th O/A and 7th in GT-U.

Interesting site - I'd like to see where their source data comes from - a lot of it seems to be contributed by specators...I wonder if they had access to Daytona's actual records...

FWIW,
Carl B.

Carl,
I completely understand and you are to be commended for even posting a page on the car. However, I'm still confused. Here's the page on the Bondurant car in 1978. 24th overall and the drivers were Bob Bondurant, Steve Cook and Ron Southern. And I don't think this is HLS30-00008.

That site is pretty cool. It has been years in the making. They have result records and members send in pictures. I have a few posted. They don't let you clip the picture off the net anymore but a fast-forward to the Nissan GTP years is well worth the surf. Incidently, I think you'll find a 240Z finishing the 1973 Sebring 12-hour. What year did the Z compete at LeMans?

But since you brought up Bob Bondurant, this might be a good moment to talk a little bit about him. Bob raced Formula One in the mid sixties. He plays a role in the John Frankenheimer film; "Grand Prix" and was James Garner's driving instructor. Bob drove for Carrol Shelby and you will find him involved in the Cobra and GT40 programs. He is a close friend of Yutaka Katayama and operates the Bondurant School of High Performance Driving.

[26th-Z]

Let's go back to 1976 for a moment. Elliot Forbes-Robinson would take over driving duties for Bob Sharp who was injured in an accident in 1975. Bob had won the SCCA C-production national championship in '72, '73, and '75 having given it up in '74 to Walt Maas in his 260Z. Bob was campaigning a 280Z in SCCA C-production and a 240Z in IMSA Grand Touring Under 2.5 liter displacement. He was GTU champion in 1975. However eight of the eleven IMSA GTU races in 1976 went to Brad Frisselle and his 240Z. Brad drove to victory with John Morton in the Mid Ohio 6-hour and the Road Atlanta 1000k. Elliot Forbes-Robinson won only at Pocono where he finished a spectacular third overall. Here is a Datsun press release photo of the two cars from 1976. Sorry for the quality. The original documents are really old.

Brad's car showed up at a Walter Mitty race in Atlanta in 2006 and I managed to grab a few shots of it.

[preith]

Great thread. Phil, wonder how hard it was to change the steering on #28 from LHS to RHS?

It's LHS in both pics. The 'recent' pic looks deceiving perhaps due to a long lens, but the petty bar should be sufficient proof. I have studied the car personally.

On the HLS30 00008 car, perhaps I should've kept my mouth shut!
I was hoping it wouldn't drag into the distraction it has. Perhaps the pic 26th-Z posted is not the same car, and agreed - kudos to Carl for posting the page, but we can all agree the '08 car WAS at Daytona. Come to think of of it, Carl, please don't hate me but I was the one who posted the link on Hybrid...

Anyway, thanks for the great pics everyone, good stuff!

[Carl Beck]

Carl,
I completely understand and you are to be commended for even posting a page on the car. However, I'm still confused. Here's the page on the Bondurant car in 1978. 24th overall and the drivers were Bob Bondurant, Steve Cook and Ron Southern. And I don't think this is HLS30-00008.

Hi Chris:
Bondurant finished 24th 0/A in the 78 race and it looks like 7th in Class. He also sponsored Speckman's team. Speckman's car is listed as a Datsun 260Z... but then it couldn't have been in GT-U if it really had been a 260Z. So that was most likely HLS30 00008.

Dr. Bork may have the log books from that period... I'll check..

FWIW,
Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

On the HLS30 00008 car, perhaps I should've kept my mouth shut!
I was hoping it wouldn't drag into the distraction it has. Perhaps the pic 26th-Z posted is not the same car, and agreed -

Hi Phillip:
Trying to pin the history of these cars down is always fun. The car that Chris posted is a later body - more like a late 260Z/280Z. That was the car that Bob Bondurant drove. Speckman was in the same race, also sponsored by Bondurant.

kudos to Carl for posting the page, but we can all agree the '08 car WAS at Daytona. Come to think of of it, Carl, please don't hate me but I was the one who posted the link on Hybrid...

Anyway, thanks for the great pics everyone, good stuff!

No problem at all. At one time, we thought that BSR had received both HLS30 00006 and 00008..... That was how I had originally written the information on the Z Car Home Page. I got an e-mail from Mr. Speckman setting me straight on that one

He wanted me to know that Nissan shipped the car directly to him - and Bob Sharp had nothing to do with setting it up Mr. Speckman seemed to believe that #00008 was the first Z to "finish" 24 hours at Dayton. But as with many of the guys - it's been 35+ years ago - and most of the guys that raced really didn't keep track of weekly, monthly or yearly history.. Their focus was always on running the next race..

FWIW,
Carl B.

[preith]

I managed to to find a pic of that 81 car on my PC. Cant remember where I found this but the file was named with a date of 1990 and I distinctly remember Tom telling me the car was raced until then which led me to believe it was the 08 car.

Also attached are some more pics of Logan @ Blackhawk in '74. I wanna say greyghost took these too but I don't see them in his gallery here.

[preith]

I thought it would be fun to do an all ZX post, again courtesy of greyghost:

[HS30-H]

Interesting site - I'd like to see where their source data comes from - a lot of it seems to be contributed by specators...I wonder if they had access to Daytona's actual records...

Are you seriously questioning the data at racingsportscars.com? That's a very well known and respected site, and I think the data there is very much more likely to be right than something that you added to your site because somebody might have given it to you "....off the top of his head."

[Carl Beck]

Phillip / Chris:

Reviewing our discussion:

Post #16

Perhaps the pic 26th-Z posted is not the same car, and...

To which I answered

Post #25

The car that Chris posted is a later body - more like a late 260Z/280Z. That was the car that Bob Bondurant drove. Speckman was in the same race, also sponsored by Bondurant.

I now realize that Phillip was taking about the picture Posted by Chris at Post #15. I was responding to the picture Posted by Chris at Post #21.

Sorry for the confusion on my part. So the question is: Did Bob Bell run the 00008 car as #81 at Daytona with G-nose and very large IMSA rear fender flairs.

At Post #18

Hi Chris:
..snipped...
Looking at the Site you reference - it looks like the sentence should say;

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 26th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class.

Sponsored by Bondurant Racing School, Bob shared driving duties with Chris Doyle and John Maffucci.

It looks like the first Z to finish a 24 hour race at Dayton was Bruce Mabrito and Jack Steel's 240Z in 1975. 26th O/A and 7th in GT-U.

At Post #21 - Chris caught that 26th finish.. and questioned it as Bondurant finished 24th in that race.

Looks like I was getting my own notes screwed up there as well. That sentence should have said:

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 16th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class. Bondurant finished 24th O/A and 7th in class.

Sorry for the confusion Chris. I looked at that "26th" three times and it still looked right!! Should have been 16th...

I will now go back to my e-mail archive and see if I can find the pictures of the car we think was the Bondurant car in 78, as well as review everything that Dr. Bork and Mr. Speckman wrote... might be a few clues in there as well.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Are you missing the point again?

On this page: http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/Bork.htm

It says:

"In 1975, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 4th over-all."

........which is wrong.

And why do you keep calling him "Speckman"?

[26th-Z]

So the question is: Did Bob Bell run the 00008 car as #81 at Daytona with G-nose and very large IMSA rear fender flairs.

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 16th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class. Bondurant finished 24th O/A and 7th in class.

It appears Bob Bell did. Here is the Speakman entry in 1978. Carl, you also commented about the bodywork. The car I photographed was a tube frame chassis with the original unibody cut up way beyond recognition. There is nothing that can be discerned from looking at the body as it was fiberglass. I also think it should be clarified that "Bondurant" did not sponsor the cars. They were entered under the name. Big difference between entrant and sponsor.

[Mike B]

Moved to new thread

[Carl Beck]

At Post #15 Chris posted a picture of a Z at Daytona with #81.

At Post #16 Phillip commented that he was fairly sure that was HLS30 00008.

At Post #17 Chris replies:

I didn't want to say anything, but I do remember talking to the guy because the car was a very low serial # and that would have interested me at the time because I owned 26th. "At the time" would have been 1984 and car #81 shows up on the entry list for the 24-hours of Daytona as a 240Z driven by John Saucier, Ronnie Franklin, and Chuck Gravel.

At Post #29 -after some confusion among different pictures I replied in part:

Sorry for the confusion on my part. So the question is: Did Bob Bell run the 00008 car as #81 at Daytona with G-nose and very large IMSA rear fender flairs.

At Post #31 Chris replied:

It appears Bob Bell did.

Well - actually appearances can be misleading. Looking farther... it seems that Bob Bell was a sponsor. He didn't run the car - Dave Duda did. At the time wasn't 1984 ... it was 90, 92. At least per the reference site you listed:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/driv...-Duda-USA.html

Interesting that Mike Speakman, Bob Speakman and Jim Novotne are listed as "Most frequent co-drivers".

We also have to assume that at that time Dave Duda only had one Z, and that he did in fact modify HLS30 00008 so extensively moving it from SCCA C-Production to IMSA.

Looking back at my e-mail exchange with Mr. Speakman - he said he sold the car to Dave Duda, and as I recall, Dr. Bork bought the car from Mr. Duda. {I'll have to go review all the messages from Dr. Bork to affirm}

The car I photographed was a tube frame chassis with the original unibody cut up way beyond recognition. There is nothing that can be discerned from looking at the body as it was fiberglass.

I believe your response here - is a carry-over from my confusion as to which "picture" I was originally looking at. My comment about the body was originally about the Bondurant entry being a 260Z body... again sorry for the confusion.

Interesting about the uni-body being cut up beyond recognition however. Dr. Bork did not say that the original body had been so completely cut up.. Dr. Bork restored the car to it's as raced in the early 70's condition. It sounds like only the firewall was left .

At any rate - I'll update the Z Car Home Page when we get back from Jim's... Are you going to make it to the show in Lakeland first?... I'm going to run over and meet some of the guys there in the morning.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[ron carter]

Here are a collection of photos that I got some time back you might have seen before the Blue and white car pictured in some of the earlier photos.

These photos from 1972 show several of the really famous Z cars, can anyone guess which two are BRE race cars?



Here is Dan Parkinson in his #5 240Z



A couple of 510's as well:



A roadster or two:



And Dan Parkinson's 280Z as of a couple of years ago:

[HS30-H]

Are you missing the point again?

On this page: http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/Bork.htm

It says:

"In 1975, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 4th over-all."

........which is wrong.

And why do you keep calling him "Speckman"?

Page "Updated 28 Feb. 2009", and reads:

"In 1978, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 16th over-all and 4th in the GT-U Class."

So it's still wrong.....

[Steve Parmley]

Here is a pic I took at Laguna Seca. The Bob Sharp IMSA GT/U Z is above the Porsche and the Frisselle Z is leaving the frame on the left.

[Carl Beck]

TrackSide Photo has tons of vintage race cars/trucks on their web site now.
See: http://Tracksidephoto.com

Remember the "BRE Datsun 510" that was on e-bay last year... and it was disputed that BRE built the car? Well here is a picture of the Baja Truck the seller ran at the Baja... Conner's efforts were pretty successful for Datsun..

Also a picture of the BRE Baja 510 that John Morton and Peter Brock ran in 1972.

FWIW,
Carl B.
Trackside Photo's shown with credits/copyright notice - and with permission.

[HS30-H]

Page "Updated 28 Feb. 2009", and reads:

"In 1978, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 16th over-all and 4th in the GT-U Class."

So it's still wrong.....

" ................ "

Would it help if somebody explained it to you?

[conedodger]

Let's go back to 1976 for a moment. Elliot Forbes-Robinson would take over driving duties for Bob Sharp who was injured in an accident in 1975. Bob had won the SCCA C-production national championship in '72, '73, and '75 having given it up in '74 to Walt Maas in his 260Z. Bob was campaigning a 280Z in SCCA C-production and a 240Z in IMSA Grand Touring Under 2.5 liter displacement. He was GTU champion in 1975. However eight of the eleven IMSA GTU races in 1976 went to Brad Frisselle and his 240Z. Brad drove to victory with John Morton in the Mid Ohio 6-hour and the Road Atlanta 1000k. Elliot Forbes-Robinson won only at Pocono where he finished a spectacular third overall. Here is a Datsun press release photo of the two cars from 1976. Sorry for the quality. The original documents are really old.

Brad's car showed up at a Walter Mitty race in Atlanta in 2006 and I managed to grab a few shots of it.

These are some great shots of Brad Frisselle's Z! It just happens that I live in Northern California not far from a shop that generally restores and races vintage race cars... Bruce Cannepa is known for the Porsche cars he does but I noticed on his website that he is selling the restored Frizzelle car. Interesting to note for those of you who like to argue history, Bruce claims this to be the first chassis imported to the United States. Yes? No? Let the fur fly! http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/7313/index.html

My Porsche friends think the 914 might be Adrian Gang but no one is sure... Anyone here have access to old car numbers from the day? I am assuming based on the Kitty Litter that is Road Atlanta. What corner? Is this picture below from the 70's or from a vintage race later on?

[ron carter]

The Frisselle car is not the first 240Z chassis into the United States.

Although it might be tough to prove it as most likely the Vin number has been removed from the car, it was not an important aspect of the car at the time it was built, because it was a purpose built race car and with all the modifications to this car there is a good likelyhood that it is gone.

I had a chance to have dinner with Don Devendorf and John Knepp recently. Don campaigned the Frisselle car painted in his livery, and number, before he took delivery of his 280ZX. Both of these guys are extremely bright, and John in particular is very detail minded. He remembers everything. According to both of them this car was not the "first" chassis, and that the claim that it is the first chassis is total bunk...

There are all kinds of stories about this car, very few of them are correct. I wonder why Bruce thinks this is the first chassis?

Ron

[Carl Beck]

I wonder why Bruce thinks this is the first chassis?

Ron

Hi Ron:
I wondered the same thing. In July of 2007 Lew Kinse, of Canepa Design called, as a follow-up to an e-mail I had sent earlier related to the VIN on the Frisselle Z. He ask where he could find the VIN on the chassis, as the dash and data tags were all missing. I told him where to look on the firewall, then sent a follow-up e-mail with photo's of other cars VIN's stamped into their firewall, and a brief explanation of the VIN structure etc.

He replied that he would let me know what they found, if they could remove any of the paint. I never did get an answer from him after that.

Could be that it was no longer an issue after the new owner paid for it. Nonetheless an amazing piece of SCCA and Datsun Racing History.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[ron carter]

Hi Carl,

It is a fantastic car, I have not seen it person, but sure would like to.

As they say, it would look better in my Garage

Regardless, the car is back at Canepa again, for sale, and as far as I know it has not sold. The price tag is steep, north of $325K last I heard.

In this economy not the best time to be selling these toys...

Thanks for comfirming my suspicion, no VIN, it could be any car...

I am sure some members here will look at the photos of the car and say it is a 280Z. For those out there who don't know, many racing 240Z were "modified" to look like later cars as Datsun wanted the cars racing to appear like the current cars for sale. So this is a 240Z with 280Z tail lights.

[Kronoss]

Here's a few I recently discovered posted on a Corvette racing site (vettemod.com)...35mm enlargements taken at Road Atlanta, not sure what year...1972, 73? There were several other interesting non-Datsun images there as well, F5000, Can-Am, David Hobbs, Donohue, etc.

–Mark Atkinson

[conedodger]

Would it help if somebody explained it to you?

I would certainly be interested in any evidence you might have to support your point if you could find a tone that is a bit more, shall we say - respectful? Thanks in advance for that effort.

[HS30-H]

I would certainly be interested in any evidence you might have to support your point..........

It has already been pointed out that there were 240Zs that finished the race in 1975 ( the Mabrito & Steel car in a pretty good 26th O/A and 8th in GT-U at 420 laps, and the Buzbee, Ross & Frates car 32nd O/A and 9th in GT-U), and 1976 ( Frates, Ross & Buzbee again at 38th O/A and 15th in GTU at 274 laps, whilst Mabrito & Steel got a DNF with 47th O/A, 18th in GTU and 185 laps ). So why does the zhome.com page on the ex-Speakman car read that it ".... was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona....."?

At the very least this is misleading, and fairly disrespectful of the efforts of the '75 and '76 entrants - which were arguably blazing a trail for others to follow. That 16th place O/A in 1978 was a fine achievement, but surely everybody can see that the zhome.com page is now worded misleadingly after previously simply being........ wrong?

......if you could find a tone that is a bit more, shall we say - respectful? Thanks in advance for that effort.

Well, respect is a two-way street, isn't it? I think I'm giving around the same amount of respect as I'm being given, to be honest. It's not a two-way dialogue, is it?
Unless you spotted a post that I can't see?

Further back in this thread you'll see Carl Beck calling into question the data published on racingsportscars.com ( a well-researched and well-respected site ) when it is his own site that carries the errors in question. That page in question wrong for over seven years - misleading people that I have personally had to correct - and then it is "updated" rather than simply being corrected.......

I guess you must see it all quite differently.

[conedodger]

It has already been pointed out that there were 240Zs that finished the race in 1975 ( the Mabrito & Steel car in a pretty good 26th O/A and 8th in GT-U at 420 laps, and the Buzbee, Ross & Frates car 32nd O/A and 9th in GT-U), and 1976 ( Frates, Ross & Buzbee again at 38th O/A and 15th in GTU at 274 laps, whilst Mabrito & Steel got a DNF with 47th O/A, 18th in GTU and 185 laps ). So why does the zhome.com page on the ex-Speakman car read that it ".... was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona....."?

At the very least this is misleading, and fairly disrespectful of the efforts of the '75 and '76 entrants - which were arguably blazing a trail for others to follow. That 16th place O/A in 1978 was a fine achievement, but surely everybody can see that the zhome.com page is now worded misleadingly after previously simply being........ wrong?



Well, respect is a two-way street, isn't it? I think I'm giving around the same amount of respect as I'm being given, to be honest. It's not a two-way dialogue, is it?
Unless you spotted a post that I can't see?

Further back in this thread you'll see Carl Beck calling into question the data published on racingsportscars.com ( a well-researched and well-respected site ) when it is his own site that carries the errors in question. That page in question wrong for over seven years - misleading people that I have personally had to correct - and then it is "updated" rather than simply being corrected.......

I guess you must see it all quite differently.

I don't see it either way. I freely admit that I do not know. But, from the start it appears you are going after Carl as if he isn't an authority. On that I do have an opinion. I just think you would get a little further in your quest for truth if you approach the people who disagree with you in a little, shall we say, gentler approach.
My life is dedicated to exposing the differences in cultures and I do know that the English argue differently. But it may help given the lack of dimension we have here on internet forum if you first state your premise as a question. Isn't it true that...? And then support your premise with cited sources. In academia we really have little respect for websites in general. They are seldom peer reviewed and often contain revisionist ideas. Let's start with that. Your referenced website is no better than ZHome in my eyes and perhaps not as good in that I have known of Carl Beck for a decade and I have seen him seek the truth as it regards the Z Car relentlessly in that time.
I have always known his mind to be open. If you know the truth and can prove it, or at least can cloud the truth as he knows it, I am sure he would be open. If you find a more respectful tone... Again, thanks for your effort in that regard...

I am not an arbitrator. Address yourself to Carl. However, it may already be too late...

[HS30-H]

'conedodger',
Thanks for your advice. Nice of "Academia" to come and pay me a personal visit, and useful to know that "....the English argue differently" when posting on what is actually an international forum.

I'm afraid I shall be sticking with my opinion ( obviously differing from yours ), and I think that's healthy as far as this forum goes. Otherwise we might as well rename it the 'Carl Beck Fan Club' and let it become the replacement for his dearly departed Mailing List, in which he was able to edit all posts before they even hit the screen.

I see you are damning the racingsportscars.com site too. Quite extraordinary. You and Mr B. could be two peas in a pod. If the data on the ex-Speakman car at zhome.com was originally right, then why has it now been "updated"? And if what is written on that page now ( implying that the Doyle, Speakman & Maffucci 16th O/A finish in 1978 was the first finish for a 240Z at the Daytona 24hrs ) is correct, then please post your evidence to prove that the other cars we have mentioned don't count.

And if you have any other 'advice' for me on how to deal with your friends, then please send it to me by PM.

Thanks.

[NissanMaster]

I would prefer as friend a good man ignorant then a man who claims clever but have no courtesy!

[hls30.com]

Come on guys, Alan is right about this being an international forum, all opinion, experience, and history are welcome, and the perspective from other parts of the world are a valid and necessary part of Z history. Between them Carl and Alan have a wealth on Z information that sould not be discounted. Carl has the USA experience, Alan has the UK experience-these were two different markets handled by Nissan two different ways, please look at both and realize the value in both! Neglecting or dismissing any viewpoint means you will probably miss something. Both put diamonds in the threads, and are strong willed, thick skinned and deserving of your respect. Look at the discussions they get into and realize the tectonic action between them will bring more diamonds to the surface than any calm presentation! Read what they post and draw your own conclusions.

Will

[ron carter]

Kronoss,

Those photos would be from 1971 at Road Atlanta.

[conedodger]

My conclusion, is that Alan was being rude. I have not visited either website nor examined the validity of the argument. I am actually, in this regard, unconcerned with the difference of opinion. But, as it is a thread that I started, I would prefer he not be rude or condescending in the presentation of his point.
As for this being a Carl Beck Fan Club... My goodness! Carl gets no pass here. If he were being rude I would have asked him to tone it down as well... As it is, if Carl could be called rude it would be for ignoring Alan.
I just want the truth to be sought out without acrimony.

Now once again, Alan - what is your point? What is the problem that is so great that you feel the need to be rude? Further, why is it so important to you?

[conedodger]

'conedodger',
Thanks for your advice. Nice of "Academia" to come and pay me a personal visit, and useful to know that "....the English argue differently" when posting on what is actually an international forum.

I'm afraid I shall be sticking with my opinion ( obviously differing from yours ), and I think that's healthy as far as this forum goes. Otherwise we might as well rename it the 'Carl Beck Fan Club' and let it become the replacement for his dearly departed Mailing List, in which he was able to edit all posts before they even hit the screen.

I see you are damning the racingsportscars.com site too. Quite extraordinary. You and Mr B. could be two peas in a pod. If the data on the ex-Speakman car at zhome.com was originally right, then why has it now been "updated"? And if what is written on that page now ( implying that the Doyle, Speakman & Maffucci 16th O/A finish in 1978 was the first finish for a 240Z at the Daytona 24hrs ) is correct, then please post your evidence to prove that the other cars we have mentioned don't count.

And if you have any other 'advice' for me on how to deal with your friends, then please send it to me by PM.

Thanks.

Alan,
You are apparently English? I fail to see that the fact that the website is International has anything to do with the cultural traits of the English. You are writing in a conversational tone and frankly being rude. At first I thought I was mistaking your conversational tone with cultural trait but it is pretty apparent that it is just you.

Your reference to the IZCC mailing list and allegation that Carl edited posts before they hit the screen reveals some prior problem with Carl.

I still don't know or understand your point of view and as I said, I want to but your point gets lost in your tone. For instance "would it help if somebody explained it to you?" This post implies that you think Carl is stupid. Are you being rude, or do you actually want to tell us that you think Carl is stupid?

[conedodger]

Now my 914 friends think this picture might have been taken at the HSR Mitty in 2007. A Frank Beck driving the 914 and Tom Trabue driving the Z...

These are some great shots of Brad Frisselle's Z! It just happens that I live in Northern California not far from a shop that generally restores and races vintage race cars... Bruce Cannepa is known for the Porsche cars he does but I noticed on his website that he is selling the restored Frizzelle car. Interesting to note for those of you who like to argue history, Bruce claims this to be the first chassis imported to the United States. Yes? No? Let the fur fly! http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/7313/index.html

My Porsche friends think the 914 might be Adrian Gang but no one is sure... Anyone here have access to old car numbers from the day? I am assuming based on the Kitty Litter that is Road Atlanta. What corner? Is this picture below from the 70's or from a vintage race later on?

[26th-Z]

The picture was taken at the Mitty, correct. Ron, you beat me to it. Those are fantastic pictures of the ARRC in 1971. Thanks for the link to the ad. Those are great pictures of the restored Frisselle car.

[HS30-H]

Now once again, Alan - what is your point? What is the problem that is so great that you feel the need to be rude? Further, why is it so important to you?

conedodger,
You seem to be determined to carry this on, and you appear to be focussed more on this question of who is - or is not - being "rude" than on understanding the real problem ( bad data ).

Perhaps you might find a little enlightenment if you spent some time looking at the archives here, with the emphasis on exchanges that have been taking place since around 2002 ( six years or so before you joined ). I don't think you'll make a very good referee for a virtual boxing match if you only get into the ring in the eleventh round.

You are apparently English? I fail to see that the fact that the website is International has anything to do with the cultural traits of the English.

Let me remind you that you brought the question of my nationality up, sir. Only you will really know your intentions in doing so. But having brought that subject up, you now question its relevance? Where exactly were you trying to go with that?

Now once again, Alan - what is your point? What is the problem that is so great that you feel the need to be rude? Further, why is it so important to you?

If you don't see it now then I don't know how I can make it any more clear to you. The data on the zhome.com page in question was plain wrong. The author ignores queries as to its accuracy, and instead calls into question the accuracy of a website that is far more specialised in the subject than his own. Then the data on zhome.com is "updated" - but it is still misleading. Call this to the author's attention and people seem more interested in questioning the intentions of the person bringing the matter up than in making sure the data is correct and reliable.

Why is "it" so important to me? Are you kidding? You mention that you work in "Academia" ( congratulations ) and then you want me to explain to you why accurate and reliable data is important........? Quite extraordinary.

[carguyinok]

I understand the fight going on here and think it's a valid fight that could go on another 6 years easy. I am not about to join in on any of that. Been there done that and know better.
BUT, is there any chance that we could get it going in it's own post? This was a post for racing photos of the past. Now there are pages of text with a few pics here and there.

[conedodger]

I think I have found my own solution...

[HS30-H]

......I CONSULTED A KINDERGARDEN TEACHER......

You should have consulted a Kindergarten teacher. Then you would have got the right answer.

[Steve Parmley]

Alan, I admire your relentless quest for historical fact. Rob, I admire your desire to argue as gentlemen. Now as my wife who is a school teacher would say, "A gold star for both of you". I wish I was an Admin so I could impose the "boobs thread law". If you don't post a picture, don't post.

[hls30.com]

Alan, I admire your relentless quest for historical fact. Rob, I admire your desire to argue as gentlemen. Now as my wife who is a school teacher would say, "A gold star for both of you". I wish I was an Admin so I could impose the "boobs thread law". If you don't post a picture, don't post.

You said this then you didn't post a pic...
Here is mine...

I agree, back to the initial focus of the thread...and its excellent intentions!
Will
Ps, I can't post anymore-I have no pictures....

[Steve Parmley]

Ok, I have attached a photo by Paul Woodbury.
You can find a couple more on my IMSA photo website
http://zlalomz.googlepages.com/imsagtuz

[Colin240z]

Here are a couple more snaps from my Dad's vault, he just sent me these

In his words:
Some More from the archives....in the early morning mist (@ Lime Rock)... Bob backs 'er down the planks, no fancy tail gate lifts!

Here's to more pics (and less controversy)

Cheers,
Colin

[conedodger]

Here indeed!

Keep prodding your father to search that vault... Those are beautiful.

Here are a couple more snaps from my Dad's vault, he just sent me these

In his words:
Some More from the archives....in the early morning mist (@ Lime Rock)... Bob backs 'er down the planks, no fancy tail gate lifts!

Here's to more pics (and less controversy)

Cheers,
Colin

[DatsunDoc]

Phillip,
In your post on the first page of this thread there is a series of pictures ending with a shot of the start of a CP race showing several Zs. Can I get a copy of this print? I have the white ex-Leitzinger 280z shown in the last picture and would love to get a copy.

Mike Unger

[preith]

Phillip,
In your post on the first page of this thread there is a series of pictures ending with a shot of the start of a CP race showing several Zs. Can I get a copy of this print? I have the white ex-Leitzinger 280z shown in the last picture and would love to get a copy.

Mike Unger

Great to hear you own the Leitzinger 280z, but unfortunately I don't own any of those photos, they're all compliments of Greyghost (aka Steve Gunderson). I beleive most are scans from his collection. You could try PM'ing him. Or anyone with a decent printer and good paper could simply print the digitial file for you, though the files aren't very large, I'm not sure how well they'd turn out.

[Mike B]

Let's go back to 1976 for a moment. Elliot Forbes-Robinson would take over driving duties for Bob Sharp who was injured in an accident in 1975. Bob had won the SCCA C-production national championship in '72, '73, and '75 having given it up in '74 to Walt Maas in his 260Z. Bob was campaigning a 280Z in SCCA C-production and a 240Z in IMSA Grand Touring Under 2.5 liter displacement. He was GTU champion in 1975. However eight of the eleven IMSA GTU races in 1976 went to Brad Frisselle and his 240Z. Brad drove to victory with John Morton in the Mid Ohio 6-hour and the Road Atlanta 1000k. Elliot Forbes-Robinson won only at Pocono where he finished a spectacular third overall. Here is a Datsun press release photo of the two cars from 1976. Sorry for the quality. The original documents are really old.

Chris,

Here are a couple more pictures of the Frisselle car from 1976 I thought you might be interested in. That is John Morton in the gold racing suit running over to swap drivers.

-Mike

[26th-Z]

Nice pictures, Mike. I notice that the B&Ws are eBay pics. Do you know if / what the car sold for?

[Mike B]

Nice pictures, Mike. I notice that the B&Ws are eBay pics. Do you know if / what the car sold for?

Actually they are all pictures from an ebay auction I won, but not for a car. It was an auction for a poster of the Brad Frisselle car at Mid-Ohio. I was just too lazy to scan the photos when I could just post the ad pics. I'm thinking of starting a new Nissan/Datsun poster thread, so I will show the poster there.

The auction also included two original unused Transcendental Racing stickers. You can see parts of the stickers on the car in the photos I posted.

-Mike

[preith]

I stumbled across these from various SCCA Nationals at Blackhawk Farms, Grattan, Mid Ohio.

The #81 Gerry Mason, GT2, I can only assume this is the #3 BRE car The #53 is Ellis Meister. The #33 ZX is of course the BSR/Paul Newman, GT1. The #85 ZX is Logan BLackburn

Here's the original url:
http://mwphoto-misc.smugmug.com/Cars/SCCA-NATIONALS

[ron carter]

Great photos Philip! this looks to be the ex-Logan Blackburn car, that is the #3 BRE car?...I know that Gerry will be at the Mitty this year perhaps we can ask him then.

Gerry Sr. Did have a 240Z that he built and campaigned, it could be that car also. I am not sure. Great shots all around, I will have to see if I can find my roadster as it raced at blackhawk farms a few times.

[preith]

Great photos Philip! this looks to be the ex-Logan Blackburn car, that is the #3 BRE car?...I know that Gerry will be at the Mitty this year perhaps we can ask him then.

Gerry Sr. Did have a 240Z that he built and campaigned, it could be that car also. I am not sure. Great shots all around, I will have to see if I can find my roadster as it raced at blackhawk farms a few times.

From what I understand Logan's was the ex-BRE car. I was unaware Gerry Sr. build another one?? I did not know the Masons will be at Mitty either. What a bummer for me, I can probably make it down there next year with my car, but not this one. Gerry Jr. and the #3 are FAST. He clicked off some laps at Elkhart 10 years ago which still would have him in the top 5 at the same event.

That's cool your car raced at Blackhawk. Yeah, check out the folders in the url, I did see some roadsters in there.

[ron carter]

Hi Philip, Sorry to hear that you are going to miss the Mitty. It's going to be special.

Gerry Sr. did campaign a 240Z prior to the blackburn car. I know that Gerry Jr. was/is planning on restoring it. My roadster is Gerry Sr.'s first Datsun racer.

Best,

Ron

[george71z]

Here are some shots of the BSR 610 at LRP.

[PPIGT2]

Here is some of my Dad's GT2 race car back in the 80's at Sears Point



This is Joel Anderson old Z. My dad bought from him back in the day.

[Bonzi Lon]

This is a postcard of the same car as in post #73 but has some different graphics. Was this photo taken before or after post #73? The back states, "Test drive A DATSUN CHAMPION." below that, "Pictured is The New York Metropolitan DATSUN Dealers 610." Lower left corner is 135648. The publisher appears (to me) to be Dexter Press from Dexter, New York.

Bonzi Lon

[gira]

Here's a cool Roadster. VIR

[conedodger]

Found another... Not sure if the car is real or replica though...

[preith]

Found another... Not sure if the car is real or replica though...

Thanks Rob, very cool, that looks like the real deal, I'd like to know what venue/date it was taken, we can probably dig up some race results. The Frisselle car is in the background too.

[conedodger]

Here is another... Not sure of the race or date on that last one. Maybe someone will recognize the track.

[conedodger]

Here is another... I think this is recent sanctioned vintage racing.

[conedodger]

This picture is from last weekend at Blackhawk Farms in Northern Illinois. A guy from Chicago who owns this vintage racer went out for his maiden voyage in it. He titled this shot "First pics of the Datsuns that blew my doors off". Not sure who the Datsuns belong to. Phil is that you in one of them?

[zcar70]

Here is another... Not sure of the race or date on that last one. Maybe someone will recognize the track.

Watkins Glen. Looks like the IMSA Sam Posey car.

[ggarrard]

The April 15 photo provided by Rob - the blue Z is Diane Dale of Toronto who runs vintage with VARAC... see http://www.whiteheadperformance.com/...ndex.php?cat=5 for more pictures of Diane's Z.

[preith]

This picture is from last weekend at Blackhawk Farms in Northern Illinois. A guy from Chicago who owns this vintage racer went out for his maiden voyage in it. He titled this shot "First pics of the Datsuns that blew my doors off". Not sure who the Datsuns belong to. Phil is that you in one of them?

That was our (Midwest Council's) first event of the year and no, I wasn't there. The red Z is Joe Ziltener's, he runs triple SU's on a homemade manifold. Greyghost has a few engine bay pics of the car in his gallery here.

The black Z is Mark Atkinson's, he posts here occasionally as Kronoss. Mark won the race after Joe made a mistake and went off in 7. I'm very happy for Mark, he's had nothing but problems with the car up until now.

Bill Oakes was also there with the ex-mountain motorsports ITS car that he's owned for the last 3 or 4 years, with one of my transmissions in it no less!
Here's the race start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-7gj9QPsig

[Kronoss]

Hey, thanks Phil!...but the results certainly would have been different had you been there

Let's hope you'll be joining us at Blackhawk over Memorial Day.

–Mark

[conedodger]

Hey, thanks Phil!...but the results certainly would have been different had you been there

Let's hope you'll be joining us at Blackhawk over Memorial Day.

–Mark

That's interesting. Both your car and my friends 914 have the number 89. Am I not seeing that right? I can't see your number in my friend's picture but I can see his and yours is in your avatar.

[Kronoss]

Rob,

If I remember correctly, they had your pal switch to "189"...hard to see in the pic, but I think the added "1" is on there.

Hopefully he had a good time and he'll race with us again.

[conedodger]

Oh he will. That is a real no kidding vintage racer and he has been working like a dog to get it ready and actually go racing instead of just wishing he were racing.

Check these out... Pretty sure these are from back in the day.

[ron carter]

the #3 BRE car is featured in part of the video I took at Road Atlanta.

[conedodger]

More from 914 guy Glenn Stazak and the Midwest Council races. He is having fun with you guys...

[preith]

More from 914 guy Glenn Stazak and the Midwest Council races. He is having fun with you guys...

I was there as a spectator/observer. There's something to be said for not having to worry about anything and watching everyone else deliberate. It was a hot weekend too with temps in the 90's. Bill (red 240, 3rd pic) had that 914 on his tail the entire race, he was spent afterwards.

Your friends 914 sounds awfully tame, but rightfully so, makes the most sense starting out with something like that.

Andy Besic has a nice Ferrari replica which he's been running with us. He qualified on pole but DNF'd. Joe, other red Z won.

[conedodger]

I mentioned to Glenn that you thought his car sounded a little tame. His response:

I am running an old 2.2 E motor with a sport muffler, it is a trainer motor.
That yellow 914 driver must be something because that car looks stock and he was running with the big boys.
__________________
Glenn Stazak

[Kronoss]

It was great to see Glenn out there again. Heat and humidity was brutal...I ran 2 races back to back and later doubted my judgement on that decision. How Gurney, Foyt, etc survived those 3 hour enduros at Riverside is beyond me.
My webers weren't happy with the weather either, way off the pace, I never arrived at a decent tune-up that day. Next time.

[conedodger]

This is really vintage and not Datsun but I think those of you who race will recognize this look... I call it the "oh ****" look!

[conedodger]

I wonder if this is 'that' PLN??? Probably huh?

[conedodger]

Found a couple of Camel GT shots of my personal hero - PLN.

[Steve Parmley]

I wonder if this is 'that' PLN??? Probably huh?

Yes, I took photos of that 510 years later when it sat on pole for an SCCA race at Sears Point.

[thunderz]

[Mike B]

I came across this site today with a ton of vintage Z photos. It looks like a few are from members here.

http://sites.google.com/site/zlalomz/imsagtuz
Its can be a little difficult to navigate to all of the pictures so here are a few more direct links:
http://sites.google.com/site/zlalomz/page1redo
http://sites.google.com/site/zlalomz/moreimsagtuzracing
http://sites.google.com/site/zlalomz/imsagturacingpage3
http://sites.google.com/site/stevepa...-gt-u-datsun-z

-Mike

[Steve Parmley]

Cool site Sorry about the navigation, I'm an old guy with no website skills.