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Thread: New "F" car on Ebay

  1. #1
    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Default New "F" car on Ebay

    "Factory", that is....HLS30-60354. At least that's what the dealer claims. Hadn't seen this one yet:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...link:middle:us

    I recall some folks tracking these for value, etc.

    Steve
    Steve

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    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Interesting bits on this one...

    -radio delete (hadn't seen that one yet)
    -Plaque on the console (oops --missed that one!)
    -carpet looks like loop pile--I thought Les at CDM supplied cut pile carpeting? At least that's what I got from him when I ordered my carpet set....
    Steve

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    Making up for owning a minivan...
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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    That's a real one. Listed as the 31st constructed in Pete Evanow's reference, the car was originally sold to Ferman Nissan. The last one of these I saw sold in the low 30s. The two before that sold in the low 20s. The asking price is quite reasonable. A banking plate over the radio was common for these restorations. The plaque on the console is standard. I didn't like the looks of the carpeting and the luggage straps are missing? But loop pile would have been the proper replacement for these cars.

    If anyone has questions about the Vintage Z / Z-Store restoration program, ask away.
    Last edited by 26th-Z; 05-08-2007 at 02:50 PM.
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    ok, you've convinced me. go ahead and buy it and i suppose i will take it off your hands. but know that this would be a HUGE favor to you.
    Jason King
    6/72 240Z / HLS30 89646 (Yellow)
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    There for a second I thought someone had dropped the "F" bomb but it sounds like we're okay in this scenario.

    I wonder what the owner could possibly find on a VW lot that would merit letting this car go?
    '73 HLS30 129806 ; L-28, street cam, SUs, 5-speed, Koni's, Suspension techniques springs, swaybars, 3.90 R200 LSD

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    Biafra for President e_racer1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogriz91 View Post
    There for a second I thought someone had dropped the "F" bomb but it sounds like we're okay in this scenario.

    I wonder what the owner could possibly find on a VW lot that would merit letting this car go?
    ummm...... that's a tough question......



    maybe they sell ferraris as well?
    Jason King
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    If anyone has questions about the Vintage Z / Z-Store restoration program, ask away.
    I think most folks on this list are doing a Z restoration program!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogriz91 View Post
    There for a second I thought someone had dropped the "F" bomb but it sounds like we're okay in this scenario.

    I wonder what the owner could possibly find on a VW lot that would merit letting this car go?
    Probably on consignment, owner may have a relative who works there, etc.

    On the other hand, I like VWs. I've owned several, all of the sportier varieties. GTIs, GLIs, Sciroccos, and a Corrado. And if I had room, I'd love to find an R32.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    What exacltly does the "F" stand for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 76Datsun280z View Post
    What exacltly does the "F" stand for?
    See the first post in this thread ...
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    See the first post in this thread ...
    Doh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    And if I had room, I'd love to find an R32.
    I wouldn't mind having one of these myself. Sweet looking cars they are. I like the look of the 2004 version the best. They're definitely a bit pricey, even the used ones.
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    I like some VWs but no one strikes me as being more valuable than a factory restored 30+ year old Z. I would have to get a part time job on weekends to cover paying the Z off and own both but to just let it go as a trade in would be very difficult for me to do if I had gone through what it took to get one when they restored them.
    '73 HLS30 129806 ; L-28, street cam, SUs, 5-speed, Koni's, Suspension techniques springs, swaybars, 3.90 R200 LSD

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogriz91 View Post
    I like some VWs but no one strikes me as being more valuable than a factory restored 30+ year old Z...
    Hey, quit stirring the freakin' pot!!
    Nissan NEVER has had a Factory Restoration.
    Those cars-as beautifully restomoded as they are-are a part of what should be called the Nissan Marketing Department Restoration Program.

    1)The last time any of the USA Zs with the plaques from the Nissan paid for restoration saw the Factory was way back in the early 70z... There is no such thing as a Nissan factory restoration program-the factory is in Japan! How can you have a factory restoration without going to the factory, or having the factory effectively moved. No Nissan payrol was used directly on the cars except on final pre and post restoration inspection and moving the cars to dealers-and maybe some warranty work after they were sold.

    2)Not one of the cars was completely restored, every single one had a plaque installed in the console that never was put in the first Z in the early 70s-meaning by definition all were modified! That is not to say individual systems within the cars were not restored-they were, and beautifully! But a restoration is a restoration, and a modification is not!

    3)The only direction for the entire method of the restoration of the program cars is a thirty something page fax that went out to several consumer restoration shops-not even a proper internal Nissan document!

    Chris...jump in with correction/comments any time!

    As a recap, Nissan Japan was invloved with only some parts sourcing for the program, virtually No Nissan Factory labor was used, the Factorys(even doemstic locations) certianly werent used, and virtually everything was handled on this side of the ocean, and by a third party for Nissan-if the factory restored those cars they are restoring mine as well, even as I type this they are tirelessly working in the garage...or is that the Keebler Elves...
    WIll
    Last edited by hls30.com; 05-09-2007 at 06:24 AM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Oh dear. The alarm has been triggered..........


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    Did anyone catch in the description it was a Tan 4 door with a Tan interior?
    Bonzi Lon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzi Lon View Post
    Did anyone catch in the description it was a Tan 4 door with a Tan interior?
    Bonzi Lon
    You know, I have always thought the inside waz bigger than it looked!
    I guess his is!
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 05-09-2007 at 06:25 AM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    As many of you know, I took great interest in this subject two years ago and compiled quite a bit of information about the Vintage Z restoration program. I was interested in the restoration technique employed by Nissan USA as well as what happened to the 40-odd cars that were produced. I discovered a very interesting story.

    Most of the restorations were completed by PierreZ in Hawthorne, California. Several California restoration facilities became involved later in the program. Direct involvement would come from Classic Datsun Motorsports in Vista, Datsun Alley in Signal Hill, and Old Car Service in Huntington Beach.

    Two articles written about the Vintage Zs describe them as “factory” restored insinuating to the uninformed reader that the cars were returned to the original Japanese factory for restoration. One article appeared in the June 1998 issue of “Road & Track” magazine entitled; “ Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected”. Interestingly, Douglas Kott reports a price of $29,950 which may have been the case 12 months after the Z-Store program began. An article that appeared in the March 1997 Z Car Club of Washington newsletter references a factory restoration. Phil Deushane, IAPA, discusses the unprecedented task of a factory restoration and resale of an original car. He refers to the “restoration shop” during a discussion of the logistics of such a task, however it is vague concerning whom is doing what. Interestingly, Marc Sayer reports in the summer '97 issue of “ZCar” magazine; “…Nissan would prefer for people to think of these cars as having come from Nissan rather than from a particular subcontractor, a sentiment I heartily endorse.”
    Marc discusses the introduction of Pierre Perrot as reserved for the Vintage Z Rally; “I also think that Nissan wanted to make a big deal of the announcement of who the renovators were at the launch.”
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    Torch Wielding Villager gogriz91's Avatar
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    Okay, so I dropped the F-bomb (This thread was low F-bomb count anyway considering the title) but my point is that Nissan was willing to commission the effort, see to it there was access to restoration parts, market then sell at Nissan dealerships 30+ year old cars which I'm guessing they've done with no other line since the inception of the company. All of that has an intrinsic value beyond driving into the nearest VW lot and driving off with a new Beetle, Touareg or Golf the value of which depreciated by 5-7% when you hit the pavement off the lot. Maybe it's moe accurate to say they were factory commissioned as opposed to factory restored? Doesn't change my arguement at the VW lot though.

    Alan, nice picture BTW. One of my first but very vivid memories about first seeing an S30 was seeing a JP S30 car chase down two Skylines that were racing on the expressway in Okinawa in 1982. I wanted one after that and bought one as soon as I could afford it 4 years later.
    '73 HLS30 129806 ; L-28, street cam, SUs, 5-speed, Koni's, Suspension techniques springs, swaybars, 3.90 R200 LSD

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    Default Mr Hanawa, where have you gone?

    The Nissan Vintage Z Program: Can really be viewed as a small part of a far larger Public Relations and Marketing initiative intended to promote Nissan's Brand Name in America, launched by Nissan Motors Ltd., in an attempt to regain market share though increased sales in America.

    Mr. Hanawa, taking over the reigns of leadership at Nissan Motors Ltd. in 1996, was faced with a very grim reality; Nissan Motors Ltd. was drowning in red ink, and on the verge of total collapse.

    Mr. Hanawa was convinced that the Factory had lost touch with its Customers and in turn lost market share during the preceding two decades. Two major goals were critical to Nissan's survival at that point; reestablish a personal connection with Nissan's customers and look for a White Knight to help bail Nissan Motors Ltd. out before a total collapse.

    Listening to his Customers in the American market - Mr. Hanawa realized that Nissan had lost its Flagship model - and that there was still great interest in its return - abet in a more affordable reincarnation. (the 96 300XZ TT's were priced at $48K in America)... He also realized that not only had Nissan lost its Flagship - it had NOT been designing and building the cars American's wanted to buy - rather it had been building the cars that Nissan wanted to sell; and they had not been at all competitive in a changing American market.

    In an effort to re-connect to his American Customers - Mr. Hanawa approved the advertising budget that launched the campaign to return the image of both Mr. Katayama and the Datsun 240-Z to their rightful place in the memories of the American Market. This $200,000,000.00 investment in brand image was a complete reversal of Nissan's direction in America taken in the preceding 20 years.

    By 1997 Mr. Hanawa had launched a complete model line redesign effort within Nissan Design, aimed at supplying new and exciting models to Nissan's beleaguered Authorized US Dealers, and he was actively courting a partnership with any automobile manufacturer capable of infusing the significant cash flow necessary to keep Nissan Motors Ltd. at least alive. He found that partner in Renault.... He also found a partner in the form of Carlos Ghosn, who agreed that Nissan Motors needed to reconnect with its Customers and exciting new models were one of the main answers to Nissan Motors Ltd. ills.

    While Mr. Hanawa did get the spotlight to announce "We Will Build It".... It was Mr. Ghosn that was on stage as all the new and exciting models started to roll off the production lines of Nissan Motors....

    Was the "Nissan Vintage Z Program" - a Factory Program? It most certainly was. It's real significances however is that it will serve as a bookmark for the larger strategic efforts originally launched by Mr. Hanawa, as he sacrificed himself to save Nissan. Authorizing a $200 Million Dollar PR and Marketing Campaign aimed at America, as well as directing a redesign of the complete model line-up - when you are already $20 Billion in debt was a huge gamble... but one that paid off.

    Amazing what you can do if you don't care who gets the credit. Katayama was restored to his proper place of honor and success at Nissan, Mr. Ghosn got the credit for the turn-around {some of which he deserved} and Mr. Hawana retired into the setting sun...


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    The Nissan Vintage Z Program: Can really be viewed as a small part of a far larger Public Relations and Marketing initiative intended to promote Nissan's Brand Name in America, launched by Nissan Motors Ltd., in an attempt to regain market share though increased sales in America.
    ...

    Was the "Nissan Vintage Z Program" - a Factory Program? It most certainly was. ...
    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Carl the information you provided in your post was absolutely terrific.
    The only part I take any issue in is the last of the statements I snipped.
    The Nissan Vintage Z Program had virtually nothing to do with the Nissan factory organization, otherwise the cars or sub-assemblies would have been done in one of them by Nissan Employees! The program had everything to do with Management by marketing, and in any company lead by consumers, the marketing department (with the "help" of the bean counters) tells the factory what to do. In this program, the neither the Management nor the marketing department didn't told the factory to do anything! Ask any Nissan factory employee at the time recent to the Vintage Z program what hand they had in restoring the cars-I'd bet even Kats(who managed to find not only the safety kit for a Z, OEM foglamps, and oh yes, a complete 432, and several employees) couldn't find one factory employee(manager or otherwise) that had even so much as a glimpse of a program 240Z in a Nissan Japan factory in the four years pre or post program. The management of the company said make it happen, but NOT to their own factorys!

    I look at at this way: If I asked you(Carl Beck) "who restored your car?", would I expect you to say "me" if all you had done was drop it off, pick it up and write out a check? My expectation of you in that specific instance would be that you would give the name of the shop you gave the check to. I see a difference between actively doing something and simply paying for it to be done.

    Nissan says that PierreZ, Classic Datsun Motorsports, Datsun Alley, and Old Car Service did the cars, and just to be sure they had no hidden message in that fact, not one of the named businesses shares an address of any of the listing for Nissan holdings in the USA at any time within 10 years of the Vintage Z Program. The Vintage Z Program was a Management through Marketing program that did NOT significantly involve any Nissan held Factory.
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Hi Will:
    I think I understand what you are saying - but I an lead to believe that you are off on a tangent. An argument that involves the proper or improper use of a common noun in a sentence structure. Or is it an argument that involves the possibility that any specific individual, might draw his or her own inferences from a sentence, when they define a common noun themselves, rather than drawing that definition from the context of the sentence, or paragraph within which it is used. {as common nouns are supposed to be defined}

    Somewhat like arguing that the Ford 40-GT Program was not a Factory Program because none of them were build in a Ford Plant. Or that Nissan Factory Service Manuals aren't really Nissan Factory manuals because none of them were printed in Nissan's plants, let alone its manufacturing factories.

    The use of the common noun "Factory", as a substitute to avoid the repetitious use of a proper noun such as "Nissan Motors", "Ford", "GM" etc - - is perfectly acceptable, broadly used by writers of all kinds and normally understood by the readers.

    ""Was the "Nissan Vintage Z Program" - a Factory Program? It most certainly was. ..."

    Because the word Factory in the preceding sentence is a common noun, and the common noun is defined in the context of the sentence.... and the context of the sentence is "Nissan Vintage Z Program"... I seriously doubt that most enthusiasts would think that was a reference to some single production plant in Japan ie. a factory or the factory, rather than Nissan Motors Ltd.

    If on the other hand - you take the word Factory completely out of the context of the sentence it was used in, therefore leaving its proper definition behind - - and instead substitute some other definition, or your own context such as "ask any Nissan factory employee"... then you can and do make all the counterpoints and arguments you just made.

    The problem is - you have simply shown that the definition of a common noun is intended to be, and should in fact be defined by the context of the sentence or paragraph within which it is used.

    Nonetheless, the Nissan Vintage Z Program was in fact a Factory Program, proven by the fact that it was the Nissan Vintage Z Program.... and was never referred to as the Nissan Shatai Koki Factory Program, nor the Nissan Shatai Koki, Kyoto nor Hiratsuka Factory Program etc.

    The bottom line is - one should not substitute one's personal definition of a common noun, for the definition provided by the context of the writing within which that common noun is used. Doing so might lead to massive personal confusion almost anytime common nouns are encountered.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Default Where did this come from?

    Chris:
    Can you tell us where the following statement came from?

    "1971 Datsun 240Z Restored by Nissan Motor Company

    On May 3rd at the U.S. Headquarters of Nissan Motors in Gardena, CA they introduced the first of the factory-refurbished 240 Z's. Introduced in 1970 the sticker price of a New 240Z was $3,526, the refurbished Z's will run $24,950. The cars, 200 of them, are being done by Pierre'Z Service Center in Southern CA. And will be sold through 10 Nissan dealers designated as "Z Stores".

    After the Z's were selected from across the country (many came from Arizona and areas similar due to the more rust free condition) they are fully disassembled, then each part is inspected and inventoried. The unibody is inspected, repaired if necessary and then dipped and painted. From there any parts needing replaced are ordered (yes they have access to parts we don't). Everything is kept as original with the exception of tires, (hard to find the original size) and a few other suspension parts (busings, struts). The other difference is a small sticker on the quarter window and an emblem on the center console designating it as an official Nissan refurbished Z.

    Nissan cut the restorations off after about 40 cars were completed. Short of their initial goal of 200 they still definatly managed to remind people of the part that the 240Z played in automotive history."

    Just wondered where the Dealer quoted this from...

    Carl B.

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    Carl,
    I was taught to 'say what you mean and mean what you say', that means common nouns have no place in my typical use of language.
    I see your point about syntax, but the 40-GT program had Ford employees(and Factory ones at that!) actually doing the work in a Ford owned facility (according to a Documentary produced by Ford on the project) ...Effectively moving the factory...
    This much akin to saying the Federal Government built the space shuttle instead of Nasa Engineers built the space shuttle...There is an element of truth, but it does not convey the reality of the situation because of the ambiguity introduced by the common noun.

    Kats and Alan said Japanese as a second language was too intense for most people because of similar plays on intent and context I suppose this would play havoc with those learning English!

    My guess is that if you ask 1000 people on the street where a factory restoration would be done-the predominant answer would be in the factory, not an entirely third party facility designated by Corporate management-I guess I better put in a call to the truth in packaging guys on Nissan's spin Doctors!
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 05-10-2007 at 12:01 AM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    The Z Police are closing in..........


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    If the negotiations by the Z Police psychiatrists fail, they'll send in their crack squad................


    .....The F Team!


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    Haahahaaahaaa! those a great Alan!
    Boy was I tired in the Wee hours this morning!
    Too much tea after ten!
    Carl-I get my own point-and the poke in the ribs!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Hi Alan:
    That is truly, just too funny.... several "crack teams" come to mind, that I would enjoy seeing....


    Hi Will:
    Our exchange reminds me of the off quoted:

    "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."


    ..... back to work...
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi Will:
    Our exchange reminds me of the off quoted:

    "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."


    ..... back to work...
    Carl B.
    Carl,
    Hahaahaaaa
    I resemble that remark...on all three counts!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Carl and Will you guys should get together and write a book on the history of everything Z. That was an aewsome debate very informative where do you guys find all the knowledge? Very impressive. I think it would a best seller!!

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    Now that's entertainment!! Those pictures and captions are priceless! Suitable for framing. I'm looking forward to the next time an "F" is slipped under the door!
    It's great that you guys can get your points across and maintain such a great sense of humor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mars23z View Post
    Carl and Will you guys should get together and write a book on the history of everything Z. That was an aewsome debate very informative where do you guys find all the knowledge? Very impressive. I think it would a best seller!!
    There are other posters in this thread that I have made that very comment about, one has written a wonderful manuscript on the Vintage Z Program, One has been an Automotive writer for years(and has back issues and direct involvement in them to prove it), one has a propensity for finding and outbidding everyone on unobtanium parts literature and cars, and makeing the rest of us too jealous(but in the end, he has to explain everything to his wife-hehehe!), one has spent a great deal of time and considerable energy making Z facts and fiction(Goertz anyone...) available to all.
    Thankyou for putting me in such esteemed company, but for an article of that type, the gentlemen I speak of(and a few more who haven'tposted or been mentioned in this thread) are the ones who would have the best knowledge to document.

    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 05-10-2007 at 09:31 AM.
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    wow, this thread got hilarious real quick
    Jason King
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Great discussion! I love hearing about this stuff, especially when it comes across as a pleasant debate instead of the all-too typical forum snarkiness.

    (Dons flamesuit) How about thinking of it as the "Nissan Manufacturer-Approved Pseudo-Restoration Marketing Program"--nice ring to it, yes?

    Just pleeeeeze don't send out the F-team...I'd hate to see BA Baracus-San come after me.....
    Steve

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    Default bad visions.....

    uh-oh...see what you've done?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Chris:
    Can you tell us where the following statement came from?

    "1971 Datsun 240Z Restored by Nissan Motor Company

    On May 3rd at the U.S. Headquarters of Nissan Motors in Gardena, CA they introduced the first of the factory-refurbished 240 Z's. Introduced in 1970 the sticker price of a New 240Z was $3,526, the refurbished Z's will run $24,950. The cars, 200 of them, are being done by Pierre'Z Service Center in Southern CA. And will be sold through 10 Nissan dealers designated as "Z Stores".

    After the Z's were selected from across the country (many came from Arizona and areas similar due to the more rust free condition) they are fully disassembled, then each part is inspected and inventoried. The unibody is inspected, repaired if necessary and then dipped and painted. From there any parts needing replaced are ordered (yes they have access to parts we don't). Everything is kept as original with the exception of tires, (hard to find the original size) and a few other suspension parts (busings, struts). The other difference is a small sticker on the quarter window and an emblem on the center console designating it as an official Nissan refurbished Z.

    Nissan cut the restorations off after about 40 cars were completed. Short of their initial goal of 200 they still definatly managed to remind people of the part that the 240Z played in automotive history."

    Just wondered where the Dealer quoted this from...

    Carl B.
    It appears that the statements came from the eBay ad that started this thread. I like your opinion of Hanawa-san, Carl. Carlos Ghosn did not arrive on the Nissan scene until well after the completion of the Vintage Z restoration program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    It appears that the statements came from the eBay ad that started this thread.
    Hi Chris:
    Yes - I just wondered where the Dealer found it - I doubt he worte it himself. I thought perhaps you might have ran across the original writting in your research on the VZ's.

    Carl B.

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    X-ray now thats funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by mars23z View Post
    Carl and Will you guys should get together and write a book on the history of everything Z. That was an aewsome debate very informative where do you guys find all the knowledge? Very impressive. I think it would a best seller!!

    I was thinking the same thing, I think if Carl wrote a book it would be very interesting, I would buy it. He could get contributing sources from Chris, and Alan from England amongest the other very knowledgable contributors on this board. Us PA guys think alot alike...(grow up in PA, moved to Cali when I joined the navy over 20 some years ago). Seriously, Carl think about writing a book about all things Z, it history, myths and legends, make it a coffee table type with great pictures and personalities. One last note, Alan that was some great funny stuff you did....loved it.

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    Default Program Car

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    See the first post in this thread ...
    It is preferred that these cars be referred to as program cars instead of the "F" word. Lets not get that debate going again .
    Jerry Purcell
    1970 HLS30 00029 Owner since 1976 Now owned by Les Canaday (Classic Datsun Motorsports)
    1972 HLS30 93606 IZCC Registion #105 Original owner back home after full restoration by Classic Datsun Motorsports

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    Carl,

    I might have RUN across something like what was written, but the dead give-away was the reference to parts Nissan has access to that we don't - wrong! One of the major reasons that the Vintage Z restoration program ended prematurely was because of a shortage of parts. How do you doubt that the seller wrote the text?
    Last edited by 26th-Z; 05-10-2007 at 02:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Can you tell us where the following statement came from?
    To be honest I don't remember where I got the text from when I setup the page so he may have gotten it from the same source but it appears to be a cut and paste from my site:

    http://geocities.com/z-car/rebuild.html

    Right down to the large bold first letter for each paragraph.
    Of course he didn't put any of the parts with typos so I can't be sure!

    I'll have to dig through my old paperwork to see if I find anything like it.

    -Trevor
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    Last edited by ta240; 05-10-2007 at 03:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ta240 View Post
    To be honest I don't remember where I got the text from when I setup the page so he may have gotten it from the same source but it appears to be a cut and paste from my site:
    Ah... thanks Trevor.. I knew I had read that somewhere before....

    Carl B.

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    actually he did cut and paste, unless they really did replace "busings" on the cars

    Typos, the watermark of the web artist

    -Trevor
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    For anyone that is interested I managed to find the Nissan brochure that Courtesy Nissan sent me way back when. My scanner is dead so I had to take pictures of it so sorry for the poor quality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    ...articles written about the Vintage Zs describe them as “factory” restored insinuating to the uninformed reader that the cars were returned to the original Japanese factory for restoration. One article appeared in the June 1998 issue of “Road & Track” magazine entitled; “ Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected”. Interestingly, Douglas Kott reports a price of $29,950 which may have been the case 12 months after the Z-Store program began.
    Poor Douglas Kott. Raked over the coals for using copy that was probably handed to him by Nissan's media flacks.

    Actually, Kott wrote two articles for R&T on the 240Z in the late '90s. The first one was in the Feb. 1997 issue, and was a Salon article about a yellow Series 1 that was refurbished by Pierre' Z. (Don't ask me to point out all the non-original parts visible in he pictures, there's a pile of them. Still a nice car, though.) In that article, Kott mentions Pierre's involvement in the program near the end. "...in fact, Nissan has appointed his firm as one of the shops to restore early Z-cars that will be sold through Nissan dealerships." A totally accurate statement, other than possibly the strict use of the word 'restore' - some would prefer the word 'refurbish'.

    The second article is the above mentioned profile on the program cars. Besides the article's title ("Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected"), in the last paragraph he refers to the cars as " factory-refurbished". In that same paragraph he calls them "factory-authorized" which is pretty much correct. The rest of the article makes no claims about the the factory-ness of the program. And since he probably got most of that wording from the Nissan flacks, I don't think I'll hold it against him.
    Last edited by Arne; 05-12-2007 at 10:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Poor Douglas Kott. Raked over the coals for using copy that was probably handed to him by Nissan's media flacks.
    I for one do not apologise for taking anybody to task on this point, and I will be surprised if one of "Nissan's media flacks" as you call them ( surely you mean hacks? ) actually wrote the dreaded couplet "Factory-restored" in any of their press releases or advertising brochures. If you have any evidence, then I'd be interested to see it.

    I've mentioned before when discussing this subject that I have actually met and conversed with people who were convinced that these cars were sent back to Japan to be restored in the factory that originally made them. Amazing. One of these people was a motoring journalist himself, and continued spawning the mistake through his own misunderstanding. It appears that the root cause of the misunderstanding was not directly from NMC USA or the advertising company that they employed ( Chiat/Day Advertising North America I believe ) but from people outside the 'Vintage Z Program' who were not thinking about what they were writing and saying.

    We have now reached the stage, more than ten years after the events in question, where certain people are engaged in trying to justify the mistake and make it - in some way - more true ( just look at post #22 on this thread ). What a farce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne
    Besides the article's title ("Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected"), in the last paragraph he refers to the cars as " factory-refurbished". In that same paragraph he calls them "factory-authorized" which is pretty much correct. The rest of the article makes no claims about the the factory-ness of the program. And since he probably got most of that wording from the Nissan flacks, I don't think I'll hold it against him.
    That's a perfect example of the way this rolling stone gathers its moss, isn't it? I don't see how Kott could have justified the use of the terms "factory refurbished" and "Factory Resurrected" in the same paragraph as he wrote "factory-authorized", and the terms arguably contradict eachother anyway. The layman and casual enthusiast would easily be misled by such language, and it seems to me that NMC USA and the advertising / publicity company they employed consciously avoided trying to do that ,whilst making an effort to bring home the point that this was an official NMC USA project that had the blessing and support of Nissan Japan.

    I have some sympathy for NMC USA and the people behind the project, as well as their advertisers and publicity people. I can imagine they had a somewhat delicate situation on their hands to describe and explain this project properly, considering that the original cars were designed, engineered and made in Japan. I also think it might be enlightening for some of the people that write on this subject if they were to try and put themselves in the position of the people that actually designed, engineered and produced these cars in the first place ( yes - in Japan ) and tried to imagine this project being viewed from that perspective. Especially when the word "Factory" is thrown around so lightly.

    Chris Wenzel's excellent report on the 'Vintage Z Restoration Program' contains the following quote, which he repeated in this very thread ( post #18 ):

    "Two articles written about the Vintage Zs describe them as "factory" restored insinuating to the uninformed reader that the cars were returned to the original Japanese factory for restoration."

    And that's it in a nutshell. I personally believe that the people involved in this project were at pains to avoid that very insinuation, whilst being faced with the problem of getting across the point that this was indeed a project that had the blessing of the company that originally built the cars ( with all that is implied by that ). As usual, it is the people on the outside that blur the lines between fact and fiction..........


    Alan T.

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    Thanks for the comment, Arne. The article was reprinted by Nissan for promotional purposes. I didn't mean to diss Douglas Kott, or any writer for that matter. There are few direct associations with the word "factory" in any of the literature I have collected on the Vintage Z subject. But they exist. Nissan, of course, wanted thier restoration efforts to pack credibility. It is easy to see how one might get the impression that the cars were actually sent back to Japan to be restored. The businesses chosen to actually restore the cars were promoted to a certain degree in order to support the validity of the program.

    But thanks to the conversation I am looking at my research again; making some changes and updating some files. Quite fun to look back through all this again! My current working bibliography on the subject:

    Nissan Motor Corporation Related Publications and Documents

    “10 Nissan Retailers Selected to Host Z Stores”, from website www.nissannews.com, 20 November 1996.

    “240Z Restoration Program Quality Control Checklist”; January 8, 1997.

    “Datsun 240Z – Japan Reinvents the Sports Car”; (reprinted from Road & Track, February 1997).

    “Datsun 240Z Sports Owner’s Manual – Model S30 Series”, Issued Date: March 1997 (161100)

    “Greetings from the Z-Store at Nissan Corporate!”; Z-Store letterhead, Z Store.doc, no date (late ’97, 25 cars produced).

    “Hand written note from Pete Evanow to Bob Berke”, on Pan Pacific Hotel letterhead, no date.

    “News Coverage as of May 27, 1997”, market survey compilation..

    “Inside Nissan – Heritage”; from website www.nissanusa.com, January 2005.

    Magazine advertisement (fold-out format) “First Solid Food”, 1997

    Magazine advertisement “No Cup Holders”, TBWA Chiat/Day Inc.1997

    Magazine advertisement (Slick) “The most popular…”, no date.

    “Nissan Proudly Presents – Vintage Z”; announcement and site map, May 3, 1997.

    “Nissan Z Store Merchandise Catalog”, Flyer # CAR412965

    “Popular 240Z Restoration Parts”; Parts and Service Bulletin, April 30, 1998.

    “Rebirth”; brochure, 1997.

    “Restored 1970 Nissan 240Z Sells for $33,920 at Monterey Sports and Classic Car Auction”; 22 August 1997.

    “Spirit”; brochure, 1997.

    “To Our Z-Club Members”, letter from Pete Evanow, Manager, Z-Store, Z-Store letterhead, Z Shutdown\Signoff.doc, October 30, 1998.

    “Vintage Datsun 240-Z Sales Invoice”, HLS30-96203

    “Vintage Datsun 240-Z Sales Invoice”, HLS30-80067

    “Vintage Datsun 240-Z Certificate of Authenticity”, HLS30-96203

    “Vintage Z Quality Control Launch Rally”; May 3, 1997. Letter from Tom Orbe, Vice President Marketing, registration form, preliminary schedule of events.

    “Vintage Z Program-Master Parts List”, inter-office correspondence / spreadsheet, February 20, 1997.

    “Z Store” Dealer Kit, November 13, 1996.

    “Z Car Parts Shipments, by Part no. & by VIN (Closed)”, spreadsheet, May 27, 1998.


    Publications from Independent Sources

    “240Z Restore Project by Nissan in USA”; Nostalgic Hero magazine, vol. 64, December 1997.

    “A Classic Reborn”, PPG Repaint Reporter, 1998

    “A Once and Always Legend”, Sport Compact Car magazine, January 1997

    “Back to Its Rootz”, Automotive News, October 28, 1996

    “Cartoon”, Automotive News, November 4, 1996

    “Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected”, Road & Track magazine, June 1998

    “Datsun 240Z Sports Classic”, Nostalgic Hero magazine Geibin Mooks No. 471, 2004

    “eBay Motors.com”, sales auction, November 2004

    “eBay Motors.com”, sales auction, March 2005

    “eBay Motors.com”, sales auction, May 2005

    Excerpts from Z-Car Club of Washington newsletters -
    “No New Z For A While”; Marc Sayer
    “Reconditioned 240Z’s”; Barry Breen
    “Ground-up Rebuild”; Phil Deushane, IAPA
    “Restored vs. Refurbished”; Carl Beck
    “Later Z”; reprinted from Autoweek, March 23-29, 1998 vol. 48, no. 12
    “Vintage Z’s Get New Pizzazz”; reprinted from Automotive News, Mark Retchin, March 10, 1997
    “New-Old Z’s”; Steve Klepinger
    ”If You Wait Long Enough”; reprinted from PR Newswire, 1997
    “New-Old Z-Cars”; Barry Breen
    “Update: 240Z Restoration Program”; Rex Jennet
    “Z-Store Opening”; Bob Bailey

    “History-Making Vintage Nissan Rally”; Z Car magazine, Rick Feibusch, Summer 1997

    “Life’s a Journey”, Sport Compact Car magazine, December 1996

    “Lust, Then Love – The Story of the New Z”, Ron Sessions, Publications International, Ltd., 2002

    “Obsolete Nissan Parts Availability”; NewZletter, Z-Car Club of Washington, March 1998.

    “The Rebirth of the Legendary 240Z”; Old Timer (Japanese text), no. 34, June 1997.

    “The Way They Were”; Sports Car International magazine, August / September 1997.

    “Restored Datsun 240Zs Take a Step Back In Time”; Newsday, November 23, 1997.

    “Restore Your Z”; The NewZletter, Wayne Karnes, May / June 1998.

    “Restoring a Vintage Vehicle”, Enjoy the Ride.com, 2004

    “Return of the Living”, Classic Cars magazine, August 1997.

    “Sports Car Chronicle”, Publications International, Ltd. 2004

    “Tokyo Survives Another Typhoon, But What About “Mad”s Recent Visit??”; unknown, letter to ZCCA from Mike Taylor.

    “U.S. Paint Code List”, http://datsunprojects.org/zpaintcodes/

    “Vintage Z Car Register”; IZCC website – www.zhome.com.

    “Vintage Z – Road Impression in L.A.”; J’s Tipo (Japanese text), no. 61, February 1998.

    “What Comes After Z…Store?”, Z Bits Maryland ‘Z Club, Paul Taylor, March / April 1999

    “Z-Car: Future Classic?”, Z Car Magazine, Fall 1996

    “Z Day at Texas Motor Speedway”; Z Car Magazine, Bill Reagan, November / December 1997.

    “Z-Speed”; Unique Cars, Howard Walker, October 1997.

    “Z-Store Update”; Z Car Magazine, Marc Sayer, Spring 1997.

    “Z-Store Update”; Z Car Magazine, Marc Sayer, Summer 1997.


    Films

    “Nissan Intro Spots / “Dream Garage” – Life is a Journey. Enjoy the Ride. Nissan Brand Campaign 1996, vhs/dvd

    “Nissan Z Store” – KNBC 2/15/97 and KABC 2/18/97 vhs

    “The Return of the 240Z (The restoration Process). TRT, no date, vhs

    Pierre Perrot, no title, no date(s), self produced video of events surrounding the Vintage Z program. vhs

    “Birth of a Legend” – Nissan Motor Corporation, USA: 1997, vhs/dvd
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    Alan,

    You beat me to post! But I concur with your comment. There are no Nissan published "factory" associations that I have found.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ta240 View Post
    To be honest I don't remember where I got the text from when I setup the page so he may have gotten it from the same source but it appears to be a cut and paste from my site:

    http://geocities.com/z-car/rebuild.html

    Right down to the large bold first letter for each paragraph.
    ta240,
    Don't take this personally ( no insult intended ) but your above-linked page is a PERFECT example of how people can be misled.

    Right at the top of the page, in big bold letters, it says "FACTORY RESTORED NISSAN 240Z'S".

    No two ways about it - that's just plain old misleading in my book.

    Is that a quotation from another source, or did you write it yourself?





    Like I say, don't take it personally though.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post

    Is that a quotation from another source, or did you write it yourself?





    Like I say, don't take it personally though.

    Alan T.

    It's been so long since the page was done, I don't remember. I think something like 10 years lapsed between setting up the pages and finally going back to delete some dead links recently.

    Nothing taken personally, although I don't take these cars as seriously as some either
    Last edited by ta240; 05-14-2007 at 12:12 PM.
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    I can see how that statement might be misleading to someone...

    To the best of my knowledge no NISSAN 240Z'S {aka Nissan Fairlady 240Z} were restored/refreshed/remanufactured etc - there were about 38 DATSUN 240-Z's completed under the Vintage Z Program however.


    Carl B.

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    given the hit counter stats on the page I don't think I've had the opportunity to mislead too many people .

    But I do always appreciate input on improving it.

    -Trevor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    I can see how that statement might be misleading to someone...

    To the best of my knowledge no NISSAN 240Z'S {aka Nissan Fairlady 240Z} were restored/refreshed/remanufactured etc - there were about 38 DATSUN 240-Z's completed under the Vintage Z Program however.


    All of those "Datsuns" were Nissans, Carl.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    All of those "Datsuns" were Nissans, Carl.
    Yes Alan, but a few of the Nissans were not Datsuns...

  56. #56
    Biafra for President e_racer1999's Avatar
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    oh goodness. i am so confused.... a square is a rectangle???
    Jason King
    6/72 240Z / HLS30 89646 (Yellow)
    1996 Infiniti I30 *I finally have all Nissans again!*
    1971 510 4door (wife's car)
    IZCC Member #14186

    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Yes Alan, but a few of the Nissans were not Datsuns...
    None of the Nissans were 'Datsuns'......

    All S30/S31/S130/Z31/Z32/Z33 'Z' cars were/are Nissans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    The asking price is quite reasonable.
    Looks like the minimum bid price (26K) was reasonable. Didn't generate a sale.

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Default It's Back!

    New listing on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsu...17642256QQrdZ1

    To clear up some of the comments and questions from the old listing. The owner of the Vintage Z also owns the VW dealership and this is from his personal collection. The old reserve was $32,000 when the starting bid was $26,000. I am told the car is in very nice condition.
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
    Go Gators
    Go Butler Bulldogs

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