What makes a Z a Z? What modifacations go too far to be called a Z?

[hls30.com]

I have had several discussions recently about Modified Z cars, and whether or not they are still Zs.
I know what I think, but what do you guys think?
What makes up the Zness in a Z?
What modifications don't affect its heritage??
What modifications do??

[72 OJ]

Zness in a Z.....The feline shape,timeless design ,long nose/short cabin. Mods this has been done from the get go, then 350 Chev's now LS1,LS2 and even 7 litre LS's. Mod/heritage, in an interview Mr. K clearly stated that one thing he might have changed on his creation was ''MORE POWER''. What mods do-----Personalize----

[hls30.com]

Now, none of this is to criticize any car, or the love sweat or blood that went into making on what it is. or the money that went into buying it. This is just to get an idea of what makes a Z actually a Z to the group of people who participate in this thread. Shortly after I joined this Forum I posted a thread on what makes a Z a classic, this is to carry that same theme. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it just so happens I am actually interested in yours.

[hls30.com]

When does changing something make it no longer the essence of what it was? That is what I am after.

Mr. K clearly gave a generic answer, he did not say "the Z needs the heart and brain of a Corvette." Note that Mr; Ks own Z was only lightly moded, and surely he could have done anything he wanted to it at any point until he gave it to Jonnie. If he was serious about adding power why did he choose not to?

[72 OJ]

Boob jobs, Viagra.....where is the essence........................................... .......

[hls30.com]

What wouldn't you change-and why?

[72 OJ]

The body....no change, the interior only change the seats for comfort, alloy wheels ad flare...............

[hls30.com]

SO, if it looks the part to the untrained eye... meaning the inside and outside are pretty much left alone, but for the mechanicals pretty much anything goes?

[72 OJ]

Yes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the mods must be done professional and details galore in the built, to keep the Z-Factor

[silvey19k]

i like my shaved rear and my msa type 3 front. i want to stay nissan under the hood and deffintaly inline 6. i do give it to the v8 guys but IMO i think 300 hp is about all your going to use on the road.

[Oiluj]

For me, changing the powerplant to a V-8 makes it no longer a Z. While not to my taste, RB engine upgrades are OK in my view. I do not look down on transpalnts of Z engines into other cars, as the L series drivetrain has proven to be so robust.

What I really dis-like are radical exterior modifications, that stray too far for the already sexy, feline lines of the Z. However, one exception is the Ferrari GTO body Z kit. Looks very nice, though truely, it's still no longer Z...

I recognize my views are probably old-fashioned, but then at 59, I'm no spring chicken!

[72 OJ]

Julio, I am of the same vintage,DOB 1953,,,,,,,Your silver Z in many ways mirrors mine. If we are at a Tin car gathering , both car detail to the max, both hood open, the UZZ, AHH, WOW..... goes to what car ?

[silvey19k]

yea i do like the factory style but im a kit guy but i also like little things that if you dont know what your looking for you just know there is something diffrent and it adds just a little flair. i would love to see a z with a 1/2 inch chop on the top just to add that little something.(the WOW factor)

[Arne]

I like the way the title is phrased, Will. "What mods make you QUESTION whether a car is still a Z?" (Emphasis mine.) Because the answer to that question will vary depending on the person.

To me, it boils down to two things - does it still look like a Z? And does it still have a Nissan L-series inline six in it? When the 240Z was introduced in the US in 1969, those were the two defining points of the Z - the styling, and the "big" (for its day) six cylinder when everything else at that price point had four-bangers.

I've got no problem with engine swaps, V8 or otherwise. But to me, a V8 Z-car is just another hot rod. You can stuff big power into any car, but that doesn't always retain the character that the car was designed with.

[72 OJ]

No offense intended, but this marvel of a car will not gain the status of an exotic, so if a Z owner wants to'' personalize'' it so what......ten yrs from now an AMX or a Cougar Eliminator will be worth more than Z with OE hub caps.

[Arne]

No offense intended, but this marvel of a car will not gain the status of an exotic, so if a Z owner wants to'' personalize'' it so what......ten yrs from now an AMX or a Cougar Eliminator will be worth more than Z with OE hub caps.

Agreed on all points, even the part about owners doing what they like. But I wasn't talking about value, or correctness, or collectibility. I was talking about personality and character. A V8 Z is a very different car than a stock or resto-mod. Better in some ways? Yes. But the personality is different. Not essentially the same car. To me, that personality is important. Less so to others.

[72 OJ]

Arne,,,I also agree,,,,but on the same token,personality can change for some reason or other and characters are strengthen ,,,,,,let me add , the so called personality/character of my v8 Z has not change , she has the same look as any well kept Z, the original interior enhance by modern seats and full carpet,she retains all original working gauges, her original electric harness only has five adapters to the LS1 electronics,she now has better brakes, a balance suspension, and an ATTITUDE,,,

[HS30-H]

.....in an interview Mr. K clearly stated that one thing he might have changed on his creation was ''MORE POWER''.

"...his creation..."

Was that your interpretation, or was it that of the interviewer?

[Torby]

This is a very interesting discussion, and it all boils down to personal taste.

As for myself, I would never do a V8 swap, as I personally think the inline six really defines the character of the Z. I can still both understand and admire people who do V8 swaps or the like.

Imho, the exterior should be kept close to factory, or at least somewhat era correct. There are a lot of mods one can do without destroying the design of the car. The S30 is in my opinion one of the most beautiful cars ever designed, and should not be carlessly messed with.

[Diseazd]

The sound of the inline 6 L series motor wound up on any straight on any race track is an incredible sound......music to my ears. When I hear a V8 on the same straight, I expect to see a Cobra, a Corvette or a Mustang. IMO, that sound is what makes a Z a Z. I'll never forget the first time I heard (and saw) Morton and Sharp coming down the hill to the Esses at Road Atlanta. It's what makes a Z a Z............as it should be! IMHO

[72 OJ]

"...his creation..."

Was that your interpretation, or was it that of the interviewer?

Mr.K ( the Dad of the 510 and the Z ) the man behind and in front of the S30 marketing,so the term '' his creation'' is my interpretation

[HS30-H]

Mr.K ( the Dad of the 510 and the Z ) the man behind and in front of the S30 marketing,so the term '' his creation'' is my interpretation

In what way would him being "behind and in front of the S30 marketing" ( even if that were completely true... ) make him the car's "creator"? Same goes for the 510 too.

I notice he has never seemed to get himself too closely connected with the large numbers of other little sedans and pickup trucks sold during the same period. Maybe their paint wasn't shiny enough for him to see his reflection in it?

[72 OJ]

This thread is on,,,,What makes a Z a Z................................................. ...........................................

[HS30-H]

....... and I'm picking you up on your "the creator" comment, which you made - yes - on this thread.

[rcb280z]

If it still looks like a Z and sounds like a Z then it is still a Z...IMO

[Jeff G 78]

I have no problem with mods and I can appreciate craftsmanship, but some mods move the car out of the Z realm for me. For example, a GTO bodied Z is no longer a Z. It's a GTO kit car. A Z with a SBC isn't to my taste, but it's still more of a Z than a GTO replica. Same goes for convertible Z cars. Once the roofline is changed, it's not really a Z to me. I do like regular body kits including front and rear fascias, wings, airdams, flairs, etc. I think many of those enhance the Z-ness of the car if don't right.

This might piss some people off, but to me, a bone-stock 2+2 S30 is barely a Z. They can look good with mods, but the stock ones are a huge compromise to what a Z is all about. Again, I think it's the roofline.

[psdenno]

Agreed on all points, even the part about owners doing what they like. But I wasn't talking about value, or correctness, or collectibility. I was talking about personality and character. A V8 Z is a very different car than a stock or resto-mod. Better in some ways? Yes. But the personality is different. Not essentially the same car. To me, that personality is important. Less so to others.

I totally agree. As the original owner of my '71 Z I know exactly what pulled me into the showroom to buy it - the shape, the engine, the interior configuration. Replace any of those characteristics and it's no longer a Z as the factory intended.

I have no problem with owners who do body mods, engine transplants, or interior changes. But, the result of those changes is no longer the Z that I saw on display in the Tokyo Ginza in 1971 and purchased when I returned to the States shortly thereafter.
Dennis

[hls30.com]

Arne,
I poised the question for a personal answer because our car choices are so personal-most of us can respect the pride, effort and time that went into a car without getting into whether or not it is as we would have built it-much like Mr. K in the early reference to more power.

Alan,
I love it when you come to the table!

There is a huge portion of Z-ness that is visual-the body and interior design team got it right-with some input from Mr. K. I think the body is what pulls people in and gets them interested to begin with. The shape is part of the uniqueness of a Z car, one of the things that grabbed me from the beginning was that an S30 only strongly resembles another S30. That silhouette is un-mistakable.
The interior fits the car, and while I understand and agree with adding more comfortable seats, I would want to update the padding in original seats or reupholster others to favor the originals. To me keeping Z ness means every upgrade should match the essential design elements of the car, not use the car as a backdrop to make them stand out.

FWIW: as an owner of an Alpha 1 GTO with an L28et with triple Webers-I agree it is no longer a Z, but an offspring, with some similarities and some serious deviations, but putting a body kit on a car is not done to keep the original character of the car-but to radically change it-but because of its vin it is still 17 letters or so part Z.

My first car was a '76 2+2. It was a Z in my eyes, though I will admit adding an L28Et in 1984 gave it more Z-ness!

[Arne]

The sound of the inline 6 L series motor wound up on any straight on any race track is an incredible sound......music to my ears. When I hear a V8 on the same straight, I expect to see a Cobra, a Corvette or a Mustang. IMO, that sound is what makes a Z a Z. I'll never forget the first time I heard (and saw) Morton and Sharp coming down the hill to the Esses at Road Atlanta. It's what makes a Z a Z............as it should be! IMHO

Yup, that sound is a big part of it to me as well. That's one big reason I spent way too much on customizing the exhaust on my Z shortly before I sold it - the sound of that inline six. I do like the sound of a V8, but the music of an inline six is my favorite.

[zKars]

If it ;

Looks like a duck;

That “we all fell in love with it the first time we saw it” look, the face with little or no makeup, long lovely body lines and unmistakable rear end..

Smells like a duck;

Subtle “odour” of exhaust, and/or raw gas, that blast of Japanese plastic when you first get in...

Quacks like a duck;

The sweet song of the in-line 6 from behind, and if you’re lucky, triples breathing from the front at the same time...

Then it’s a duck...

[John Coffey]

The make and model listing on the vehicle title determines whether it is a "Datsun 240Z" (or 260, 280Z). Everything else is just emotional fluff.

[psdenno]

The make and model listing on the vehicle title determines whether it is a "Datsun 240Z" (or 260, 280Z). Everything else is just emotional fluff.

Yup. And isn't that emotional fluff why we all buy the cars we buy? Then, some of us tend to booger them up. If it wasn't for our desire for emotional fluff, all cars would look, sound, and run the same.
Dennis

[MotoManMike]

I know Lee pretty well and he's free to blast me but I don't prefer non Datsun/Nissan swaps. This goes for any car i've ever owned. I just can't get over a swap of a motor not made by the same manufacturer( I said this to Lee the day he brought that car home ). Now with that being said, that LS1 powered Z is a FU(!^% blast to drive. I think radical exterior mods, roof chops, stretches, hideous body kits etc make it not a Z. If it doesn't retain the independant suspension in the rear its not a Z. If you can't tell what it is because of all the exterior mods, its not a Z. I own 2 Z cars, both 240's, both made within 4 months of eachoter, both basically stock looking rust and all. I am diligently working under the hood on the one with an L series turbo motor but I pondered RB, VG, VQ swaps, but to me its not a Z if I went any other way. Lee's car is a great subject for this thread. Is it a Z? anyone who see's it will think so. Anyone who takes the risk to run it when the light turns green will think otherwise. Me coming from stock car territory frown upon small block swaps. Its just too easy and too played out, they swap chevy motors into every damn thing with wheels here. If its not for a Chevy small block its not in stock at the parts store you get where i'm going? However looking at the attention to detail they took when they built Lee's car one might change their mind because it is done the best you could possibly do. For an answer from me, if it looks like a Z its a Z, would I swap anything other than an L series in it probably not. Swaps are murky water but i'm not a purist by any means, the real reason we drive these things is that feeling when that right toe drops.

[hls30.com]

I am looking for how you feel about the modifications made to a Z car, not what the state/local government fits it into their tax base as. John I want your emotional fluf! Don't take that the wrong way, Nudge, nudge, wink, wink! You are in good company, I had to get on Carl this way in the "Classic" thread. My first consideration in buying any Z is purely emotional, then I use condition/modification to determine what I am willing to pay for it. This thread isn't about pricing or buying a Z, it is about what you consider the essence of a Z.

[72 OJ]

............

[5thhorsemann]

Slight body mods are ok, a scoop, some spoilers and flairs and shaved bumpers add to the cars lines. Huge body kits, replicar kits, and sorry OJ but V8 transplants, make it into something it was never meant to be, a slick and nimble little back road terror. As I said before, if you want a Vette, just buy one. I can't believe that that swap didn't hurt the twistie road handeling of the car, there is such a thing as too much power unless you like going really fast in a strait line.

[72 OJ]

5th, no body twistie, keep in mind that the LS1 is a good 70lb's lighter than the iron L engine, she has a custom/welded/steel frame rails front to back , the former PO did lots of track days at Summit Point WV, and there is no evidence of abuse or stuff falling off, she is solid and can win a beauty pageant with just a shower ........back to the subject,,, the attributes,nature,heart and soul of a Z my current Z has it.

[gnosez]

So would that mean that neither the CP or IMSA styled and modified racecars wouldn't be considered "real" Zs (flares, bigger brakes, major suspension mods, replacement of interior parts, including the stock gauges, lack of a stock wiring harness, no mufflers, wings, etc.)?

And I have had the opportunity to hear Mr. K specifically state that more HP (and John please drive faster!) would have been a good thing.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

I think I am with Arne, the heart and soul of any sports car is the engine. Songs were not written about flares, or tires, or spoilers, but many were written about the engine. The L series is the pure core of the Z.

Just like if you put a SBC and turbo 350 transmission in an early Jaguar, it really is not much of a jag an more. It is much much less.

[silvey19k]

well sounds like anything it all goes to personal style. the simple to crazy and i think thats what makes z owners a great groupe of people. we may not like what someone has done but i think we all think what if or hmmm thats kinda cool. i think a z is a z because of the owner from reading this thread. well maybe only classic z guys i keep getting blown off by 350 guys till i blow by them.

[zbane]

I'm surprised no one has said "the addition of an 'x' to the name immediately disqualifies it's 'z'ness..." :P
I'd say the car retains the 'z' essence if any modifications go to further the original design. As such, using newer versions of parts, upgraded suspension/brakes/wheels, etc., and body kits/pieces that improve aerodynamics are fine by me. So far as engine swaps, I think along the same lines.
While v-8 transplants aren't really my thing, I do understand and respect the reasons. (case in point: years ago I was contemplating buying an e-type coupe that had undergone the sbc treatment. In my eyes, it was still a Jag, but one that would be much more reliable while still being fun....sadly, the idea was nixed by she who must be obeyed).
However, were I to swap engines, I'd prefer to keep the straight six configuration. I do like the idea of keeping it in the immediate family, but distant relatives would be acceptable (I consider the straight six from the BMW M cars as cousins).
Would it still be a 'z'? Eh, maybe...but would it still have the essence of a 'z'? I believe so.

[TomoHawk]

Only the S30 models are Z cars- anything else is a ZX. So it's gotta have the L series engine, a simple interior, and a simple paint scheme. You can still add a few things to say within those guidelines, like a CD player car stereo (for city cars,) CB radio (for touring cars,) a simple front and/or rear spoiler or air dam ( if you compete) and maybe a stripe on the doors or down the top.

If it really needed more power, Mr. K would've designed it that way. But I think it has plenty to go bombing around town or the countryside at about any speed to can handle. People that feel they need a V8 should first learn to drive better than the pros from back in the 1950s & 60s.

[Oiluj]

It's refreshing to read everyone's differing opinions. Shows the range of how people here view their cars. While I may not agree with all viewpoints, I don't question that we all chose our Z's for somewhat similar reasons.

I admit to having a certain amount of "emotion" when it comes to S30's, especially 240's. I heartily agree with others regarding the sound of the engine. It's got an underlying, "gritty" mechanical sound, not duplicated in mechanically quiet modern engines. And as stated above, the exhaust music from an inline 6 at higher revs is distinctive. I think the evolution of the L-series engine, (with modification, capable of generating 300+ HP), probably would have exceeded Mr. K's desire for more power...

As I indicated above, the feline, exterior lines of the Z are unmistakable. There are add-ons and modifications that can skew the look of the car in both positive and negative ways. I love to see well done changes that highlight the positive aspects of the Z's design. Interior mods, for me, are more of a form-follows-function thing as far as I'm concerned.

In terms of performance upgrades, better brakes, engine tuning, suspension mods are all worthwile changes, (especially if reversible. to stock). These can be accomplished without any significant change to the look and feel of the car.

Lastly, my view is of the S30 is as a rally, auto-x or road-race car. They were not designed to be dragsters, especially when compared to muscle cars of the era. The Z's at it's best racing through the curves "at-speed".

[grantf]

I have to say what sold me on my first Z (260) was looks, After that it was driving it. Wow! what a fun car it was on the test drive!
So for me it's the body, then the fun, then the little cool things the 260 had had, like the stow away compartments, the spartan yet useful cockpit. shure throw another motor in it and it will still be a Z sort of. My 2 cents. And Yes OJ we have seen you're vett engine, brake and drivetrain mods, they are cool (again and again and .......)

[Stanley]

Max Z-ness: Historic successful Z race cars from the 70's, restored or not.

Minimum Z-ness: 370Z with 20 inch wheels, Anime body wrap, and no performance options.

The rest of us in between.

[hls30.com]

Good to see you Dave! You know adding any BMW parts kills the Zness! JK!
John, I can still hear that peel out in the Convention center!
Tomo-how go the shifter plans?

My personal view is any part from any other Z loses less Z-ness as long as it is brought over looking like it belongs and working flawlessly, a Non Z engine/ecm transplant is more of a heart/brain transplant to me and thereby doesn't really fit my view of a Z-ness-that is absolutely not to say that I do not recognize, understand, and appreciate the pull, workmanship, and effort behind it-but leaving Corvette on the covers is to me a big red and black flag left on to purely tell everyone his car ain't no Z no more. Maybe if the covers said V8Z or LSZ, or some or followed the Nissan valve cover convention truly representing the engine but not saying Nissan, 6000 DOHC.maybe..I just don't see any Zness in a big red flag that says Corvette. Again, none of this is to criticize the effort or workmanship or the choices, just to voice what I might have done to keep to keep closer to my version of Z-ness in my own car.

A seriously campaigned purpose built car is a different animal, it gets Zness from its track history as well!

I think all mods that keep Zness blend with the car instead of stand out from it, every part should fit like it belongs visually as well as mechanically. To me a Z is a harmonious collection of parts ment for a balanced driving experience, not a mobile billboard displayed to draw attention to changes made to it. Update all you want, but make it work with the remaining original design ques of the car. Again, just my opinion-not a challenge, a criticism, or an knock. There is only one person most of us have to make happy with our cars-our selves-unless the receipts fall into the wrong hands....
My 300z has several Modifications, but they are not painted up to draw attention to them, but to fit in with the original design of the car. Finishing what was started even complimenting it works, making the part stand out from the whole not so much!

[FastWoman]

To me the engine is the soul of the car. A car that's lost its original engine (or one like it) has lost its soul. A Model T with a V8 is no longer a Model T. Same with the Z.

[72 OJ]

William,,,,You mention essence,the properties of what makes the Z that I own what it is, she began her life as the pride and joy of the first owner, then a few years later , she became an executive's play toy in Car Land California. That executive move East, she rested in all her beauty for some time, then came a dreamer and found her,she growl to him. He became the new master of this fine feline and transformed her into a wild but seductive beast. Then she again went dormant, I came in to her path and fell in love, that big red heart that pulses her seduced me, she growl to me and I took her home.

[HS30-H]

And I have had the opportunity to hear Mr. K specifically state that more HP (and John please drive faster!) would have been a good thing.

I'm sure you did ( and he was - of course - quite right ) but if he had even one tenth of the influence that people attribute to him, then he would have made sure that it happened.

Instead, the market that he was responsible for got saddled with a four-speed trans and a 3.364:1 diff ratio......

Only the S30 models are Z cars- anything else is a ZX.

More muddle-headed nonsense. You're forgetting ( of just ignorant of ) the fact that Japanese market models never got the 'X' tagged on to their model names. So, by your definition, a 1979 'Fairlady 280Z' is a Z, but a 1979 'Datsun 280ZX' is not......

If it really needed more power, Mr. K would've designed it that way.

Ye Gods.......

[72 OJ]

So for many this is not a Z ( click on picture)

[5thhorsemann]

So for many this is not a Z ( click on picture)

Thats right, it's a Scarab.

[72 OJ]

So for many this is not a Z ( click on picture)

5th, please put on your eye glasses, so you can see what it is.

[TomoHawk]

Besides the artwork on the fender, it looks a lot like a 240 Z with a tired air dam...

Japanese market models never got the 'X' tagged on to their model names

I'm not in Japan, so I don't care what they call their cars. As for the Mr. K quip: you should beaware about some common humor used here.

[MotoManMike]

So for many this is not a Z ( click on picture)

/\ --- this might get sticky . Lets see where it goes. I like how people get all bent out of shape for some words on a computer screen. Looks like a Z to me, although I know theres a 327 under the hood.

[hls30.com]

William,,,,You mention essence,the properties of what makes the Z ... transformed her into a wild but seductive beast. '.. I came in to her path and fell in love, that big red heart that pulses her seduced me, she growl to me and I took her home.

Amid your passionate words(that I can feel) are the Z-ness issues, showing us what I suspected to be true...the engine leads your passion for the car, not that the Z is not a part of it, it just isn't the strongest part. If your passion was actually for a Z you would not have been seduced by more...something "transformed" with a "big red heart"...

To me a Z does not need to be transformed, it is already seductive, and transforming it only makes it less Z, and more something else-be it COrvette, or race car. I believe that there is a difference between a transformation and making some almost invisible upgrades-that blend into the character of the car, not transform it. That is absolutely not to say I can't appreciate it, love to photograph it, have inordinate amounts of fun in it, or admire it, it simply means it ain't as much Z as it is something else. I will admit I prefer a slightly modified Z to a bone stock one, but that has just a little to do with my thoughts of "Z-ness".

Alan, Thanks for reminding us Mr. K was more important to our market than the actual development of the Z. He had some influence, but not the actual control some attribute to him. Between you and Kats, that can get cleared up like the Goertz myth. Mr. K built the dealer network and put pull marketing in place with his efforts-he built Nissan North America, and championed the Z -and the Datsun Truck here, he did not develop the Z, but helped in its development. Thanks to for reminding us that we got what the USDOT would approve and Nissan wanted to send...and that kept most of the factory fun options and parts off our shores...keep that salt coming!

John, I don't think you would drive a stock Z any more for any length of time...would you? You get a mighty big smile pushing the limits of yours!

Tomohawk, while I feel that the S30, the Z32, and even the Z34 are Zs that are the most attractive to me, I also feel every Model of Z is something to appreciate.

There is a reason that Scarab removed all of the Z emblems and added Scarab Emblems-A Scarab is more something transformed than Z.

A race car is more about winning with what you have and can get than being a Z.

[72 OJ]

William,,,,You mention essence,the properties of what makes the Z that I own what it is, she began her life as the pride and joy of the first owner, then a few years later , she became an executive's play toy in Car Land California. That executive move East, she rested in all her beauty for some time, then came a dreamer and found her,she growl to him. He became the new master of this fine feline and transformed her into a wild but seductive beast. Then she again went dormant, I came in to her path and fell in love, that big red heart that pulses her seduced me, she growl to me and I took her home.

hls30.com you must be related to EScanlon,,,,, if you use a quote please use it as intended and not just select parts of it to misinformed , MY seduction was to the beauty of the car's condition ,its preservation, its provenance and yes the updated drive train. SHE IS ALL ''Z'' with an ATTITUDE.

[HS30-H]

I'm not in Japan, so I don't care what they call their cars.

Well, as I'm most certainly not in NorthCoast, Ohio, I could say that I don't care what you call your cars there either. But that would be stupid, wouldn't it? So I won't.....

What matters is what Nissan themselves called the cars, and that is something that you should certainly take notice of.

As for the Mr. K quip: you should beaware about some common humor used here.

Oh, it was a joke.....!?!

CLANG!

[LeonV]

The make and model listing on the vehicle title determines whether it is a "Datsun 240Z" (or 260, 280Z). Everything else is just emotional fluff.

I'm with John, although I'll go with the VIN stamped into the body as the ultimate say. And I'll also second everything Alan has contributed. Everything else is as fluffy as a 9th grader's English paper.

[Gary in NJ]

SHE IS ALL ''Z'' with an ATTITUDE.

Not according to the poll.

Was the Frankenstein monster a human?

[5thhorsemann]

was the frankenstein monster a human?

[72 OJ]

PUTUS INVIDIA........................................the poll read it , do the math....................................... Gary in NJ and 5th let me come down to your local Tin gathering, and lets see who's Z gets the WOW, UUUUU, AAAHHH

[5thhorsemann]

Relax OJ, we know you have a hybird show car and we all drive Z turds. But for the most part we built ours.

[Diseazd]

Not according to the poll.

Was the Frankenstein monster a human?

Absolutely......a poll is a poll.....obviously most on this forum don't like motors other than the L series in a Z car.......at least according to Will's poll. We're not arguing with what others like.....just telling you what we like!

[72 OJ]

Relax OJ, we know you have a hybird show car and we all drive Z turds. But for the most part we built ours.

When Dave the PO, built this car I was there wrenching , his money then my mula now.......................well he farm some of the work

[TomoHawk]

Looks like a Z to me, although I know there's a 327 under the hood.

It does look like a normal S30, until you get to look up close and see all the little details. You'll need to ask yourself if you want to just keep your distance and enjoy the overall view, or look into all the little things that might spoil the big picture...

[Gary in NJ]

Gary in NJ and 5th let me come down to your local Tin gathering, and lets see who's Z gets the WOW, UUUUU, AAAHHH

I don't own a Z so others can go "WOW, UUUUU, AAAHHH"; I own it so I can.

Frankly, most car shows don't know where to park a Japanese classic like a Z. My guess is that they'd put some hybred Z or one that was heavily modified with body kits and wings where it belongs; with the other kit cars.

[TomoHawk]

Mine usually goes in with the sportscars or the Foreign/imports. There with the Foreign cars you see Jags, Mercedes, MG, etc., and in the Import area you see Honda, Toyota, Suzuki.....

[madkaw]

I'm with John, although I'll go with the VIN stamped into the body as the ultimate say. And I'll also second everything Alan has contributed. Everything else is as fluffy as a 9th grader's English paper.

Actually it's the Emblems that determine everything!

[TomoHawk]

OK, so we'll start putting yellow Cavalinos all over the car...

[John Coffey]

Mr. K is the Jean Luc Picard of car designers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxHAZChcYU

[LeonV]

In that case, I'll put Daihatsu emblems all over my Z. The ultimate sleeper.

[MotoManMike]

Love them or hate them we all love these cars and will continue to love these cars. Some more than others but we have desire to manipulate the original(2.56% were what judges consider purist). I guess it all boils down to your own tastes. I drove my Z to work today and its the nicest car i saw all day and its by no means a car 99% of the population would feel safe driving to work. It is safe because i've focused on that first. I'm pleased the cars have a following. Whether or not we like the choice of engines or modifications, at least we have groups of people who have one common interest. We want to keep the 4 wheels rolling on these old Z cars and that to me is a great thing. I hope it continues because I don't see me shaking this sickness anytime soon

[grannyknot]

I was 10 yrs old when the Z came out and it was stunning! Me and the rest of the guys I charged around thought it was the cats ass. For me the exterior style is a Z,
Nissan built a great car but it had lots of flaws like every other of that era. They had to make a profit on each unit, so,
they cut some corners. Now that I own one I don't have to cut corners, I can put in more comfortable seats in, more reliable wiring, a more powerful engine, better headlights and on and on. As long as I don't screw with the true beauty of the car, the lines, the thing that grabs everyone, then I am only enhancing the practical matters, not the essence.
Chris

[72 OJ]

Hey, guys I just got back from a local happy hour thing, I swear on my way there ,I stop at the 7-11 for cigs and a well dressed guy comes to me and says ''nice Z ''. Then while parking I get a '' super clean 240 ''from a guy getting out of a very nice BMW. Had the mandatory Mojitos, and when I pulled to my driveway ,my neighbor's visitor shouts '' tight Datsun''.......................

[hls30.com]

hls30.com you must be related to EScanlon,,,,, if you use a quote please use it as intended and not just select parts of it to misinformed , MY seduction was to the beauty of the car's condition, its preservation, its provenance and yes the updated drive train. SHE IS ALL ''Z'' with an ATTITUDE.

I have been called worse, but, if the story of Adam and Eve is the correct, I am just as related to you! Oddly enough EScanlon and I had a serious pride filled altercation on line-over a vendor-it is all here in the archives...WE get along pretty well now.
Back to your post. While you do talk about her history and previous condition, No where in there do you talk about your explicit reaction to her beauty, condition, or state of preservation...your intent may have been different than your words, but the only words that point to directly to anything specific are exactly: " big red heart that pulses her seduced me, she growl to me and I took her home." It could be differences in our modes of communication, If someone asks me about my Zs I tell them exactly what pulls me to them-I answer a question with such a passionate answer using active voice, passive voice is for what I really don't get to excited about. You do seem to react differently, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and you don't need to defend it. Your opinion is every bit as valid as mine, we made choices on cars because of them, mine is different from yours-no better or worse, just different, and that just means I won't be competing for what you want, driving up the price!
Don't misunderstand, I didn't knock your car at all, it is well thought out and beautifully executed from what I can see in the pictures you have posted. I can't imagine anyone not being happy to see it at any car show(except maybe its competition).
The point of this thread is not to change minds, merely to expose them to different viewpoints-and you have been a great participant!

As far as your last post...1) I bet you didn't pop the hood before the comments were made, and 2) people who are not experienced with a car and are not informed know only what they can readily observe, and have no chance to comment on what they can't...regardless of whether it is because of a closed hood, or the fact that other than at that moment they simply don't care enough about a Datsun or a 240Z to look into them-or both!
I bet I could put 240Z badges on a well kept Volvo 1800 and most people who would comment and did not really know a 240Z would comment about the nice 240Z...until I popped the hood and the Volvo valve cover caught their attention. If you want to really prove a point about something most people don't know about, you have to prove it using people that actually do know about it and provide full details.

[doradox]

What matters (to me) is what Nissan themselves called the cars, and that is something that you should certainly take notice of.

There, I fixed it for you.

[hls30.com]

I'm with John, although I'll go with the VIN stamped into the body as the ultimate say. And I'll also second everything Alan has contributed. Everything else is as fluffy as a 9th grader's English paper.

The problem with that is your California DMV and your Insurance Company, will tell you different, whether it is by changing the rates they charge, the emissions you must meet, or adding a string to your title for a modified vehicle. Not all states are that way, but I have yet to see an insurance company that did not get keenly interested-and sharpen their pencil-when asked to insure a vehicle with a swapped engine-if it was as original that would not be the case. John is in New England-no clue about their DMV, but I bet John could drive around it!

[TomoHawk]

OK, according to the poll,a deviation from the stock engine is a significant part of what people are concerned with. But the most popular answer involves Too many Exterior Modifications. As long a you keep the hood closed, which is how you see a car as it drives by, you can't really tell what engine is there, but the exterior modifications can stick out like a big red wart of your nose.. I wonder how radical people can get with external modifications.

[hls30.com]

OK, according to the poll,a deviation from the stock engine is a significant part of what people are concerned with. But the most popular answer involves Too many Exterior Modifications. As long a you keep the hood closed, which is how you see a car as it drives by, you can't really tell what engine is there, but the exterior modifications can stick out like a big red wart of your nose.. I wonder how radical people can get with external modifications.

Tomowan,
Remember Zness is in the eyes of the beholder, but by the same token there are some cars that you may not want to see because you cant un-see them, and the visual image may be damaging to your eyes. There are several threads here that have many of these in them-you have even participated in some of those, but some threads are better left unopened...in my opinion...there is one Caterpillar yellow "Z" snow plow that comes to mind...and will not leave-damn.

On that vein Japan had/has a somewhat popular practice of putting seriously oversize spoilers on cars-there is a thread on that somewhere-and that definitely is off my scale for lost Zness.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to be correct in their own eyes, and to share their opinion when asked, but no opinion is necessarily right other than to its beholder-I am just aS interested in the opinions we have here as I am the cars.

[gnosez]

Since I have a heavily modified 240Z, let me list as many as I can remember and you can decide which one(s) move it into the "no longer a Z" column.

Engine: 3.2L Rebello, triple 44mm Mikunis, TWM air box and K&N air filter, Pertonix in a euro dizzy, MSD 6AL and tach adaptor, MSA jet coated header-wrapped, AZ 6-qt oil pan with Brad Penn 20-50w green oil, GM 120amp one wire alternator, Coolflex hoses, AZ Z radiator, twin fans, custom dampener, 8mm mag wires, NGK plugs (#7), and Mallory comp fuel pump.

Suspension: TTT LCAs, TTT T/C rods, AZJDM outer tie rods, AZ Z RCAs, STS front and rear sway bars, bump steer spacers, poly bushings, GC biscuit style camber plates, cut down struts, Tokico HTS shocks, 275F/250R GC springs, PDK front strut bar, roll bar and MSA rear strut bar, 2.2 neg front camber w/4 degrees caster - 2 degrees neg rear, 0 toe, and corner balanced.

Drivetrain: 1980 280ZX tranny, race balanced drive shaft, Rod Tyler diff mount w/GM ploy bushing mount, 3:90 diff w/Quaife, 300ZXT CVs with MMS stub axles, BBS style CWW 16-inch wheels w/ Yokohoma 225/50 fronts - 245/50 rears.

Brakes: 280 booster, 15/16 MC, Wilwood fronts and 240sx rears (Porterfield pads all around)

Body: MSA g-nose w/headlight trim and covers, custom hinges, FG rear bumper, Classic Datsun rear spoiler, custom gnose airdam and splitter, custom mini-rear flare, paint, left side mirror reversed to fit right side, and AZJDM tow hooks

Interior: Cobra seats, Race Quip 3-inch harnesses, 280 tach, Panasonic radio/CD and Boston Audio speakers, Classic Datsun carpets, dynomat, and CF pedals.

Electrical: H4 head lights, LED rears, Zonthebrain relays, Pilot fogs, and Hella horns.

If not listed it's still stock (un-cracked dash, wiring harness, tail lights, etc.).



Without the since added headlight covers, trim and splitter.

So is it still a Z?

[hls30.com]

Mr. K is the Jean Luc Picard of car designers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxHAZChcYU

I love that!

I was 10 yrs old when the Z came out and it was stunning! Me and the rest of the guys I charged around thought it was the cats ass. For me the exterior style is a Z,
Nissan built a great car but it had lots of flaws like every other of that era. They had to make a profit on each unit, so,
they cut some corners. Now that I own one I don't have to cut corners, I can put in more comfortable seats in, more reliable wiring, a more powerful engine, better headlights and on and on. As long as I don't screw with the true beauty of the car, the lines, the thing that grabs everyone, then I am only enhancing the practical matters, not the essence.
Chris

Lots of good stuf there!

I am all for correcting the accountants compromises in our Zs, I just want to do it with parts specifically made or dressed to fit the nature of a Z. I took out the clock in the radio faceplate of my Z32, and moved the 12 outlet from the ashtray area to the faceplate-I cut up both to move them-everything I used except the energy, epoxy, the filler and the paint was 100%Z- that is my commitment to keeping Z-nes in my cars, now I did upgrade to HID lighting with a generic kit marketed for Z32s, I also have some JDM Nissan Parts on the car as well-mostly lighting, I try to upgrade with actual Z parts when ever possible, and when not, I usually modify what is already there. I did add a Plug for the 12Volt outlet to finish it-came from a Volvo, but sculpted and painted to match the Z-I will keep looking for a Z part to do that job, but in the meantime it is handled by a modified an unidentified volvo part.

Since I have a heavily modified 240Z, let me list as many as I can remember and you can decide which one(s) move it into the "no longer a Z" column.

Engine: 3.2L Rebello, triple 44mm Mikunis, TWM air box and K&N air filter, Pertonix in a euro dizzy, MSD 6AL and tach adaptor, MSA jet coated header-wrapped, AZ 6-qt oil pan with Brad Penn 20-50w green oil, GM 120amp one wire alternator, Coolflex hoses, AZ Z radiator, twin fans, custom dampener, 8mm mag wires, NGK plugs (#7), and Mallory comp fuel pump.

Suspension: TTT LCAs, TTT T/C rods, AZJDM outer tie rods, AZ Z RCAs, STS front and rear sway bars, bump steer spacers, poly bushings, GC biscuit style camber plates, cut down struts, Tokico HTS shocks, 275F/250R GC springs, PDK front strut bar, roll bar and MSA rear strut bar, 2.2 neg front camber w/4 degrees caster - 2 degrees neg rear, 0 toe, and corner balanced.

Drivetrain: 1980 280ZX tranny, race balanced drive shaft, Rod Tyler diff mount w/GM ploy bushing mount, 3:90 diff w/Quaife, 300ZXT CVs with MMS stub axles, BBS style CWW 16-inch wheels w/ Yokohoma 225/50 fronts - 245/50 rears.

Brakes: 280 booster, 15/16 MC, Wilwood fronts and 240sx rears (Porterfield pads all around)

Body: MSA g-nose w/headlight trim and covers, custom hinges, FG rear bumper, Classic Datsun rear spoiler, custom gnose airdam and splitter, custom mini-rear flare, paint, left side mirror reversed to fit right side, and AZJDM tow hooks

Interior: Cobra seats, Race Quip 3-inch harnesses, 280 tach, Panasonic radio/CD and Boston Audio speakers, Classic Datsun carpets, dynomat, and CF pedals.

Electrical: H4 head lights, LED rears, Zonthebrain relays, Pilot fogs, and Hella horns.

If not listed it's still stock (un-cracked dash, wiring harness, tail lights, etc.).



Without the since added headlight covers, trim and splitter.

So is it still a Z?

If you keep your foot out of it while inside a huge concrete building with me, yes!


Most of what you have done is with Z specific parts, to me you still have a high level of Z-ness, Modifications don't necessarily hurt Z-ness, Zrush-highly customized, still very Z! Roger Berrys cars, and ex cars lots of Z in them, but lots of distance from Z as well-dosen't mean I don't love to see them and didn't love taking pictures of them at Daytona-hell, my Alpha1 GTO, more something else than Z even with the ZX Turbo drivetrain-doesn't mean I would change anything to make it more Z -or feel bad because of that-It is on the way to being what I want it to be.

[HS30-H]

There, I doradoxed it for you.

Thanks......

[Stanley]

'71 in Option 2 with a 250 mph suspension and the latest Skyline race motor, or a stock resto, or a $1500 rat rod, all beautiful to me.The only ones the make me question if it's really a Z are the ones that act like they want to race and then cheeze at the light.

[TomoHawk]

So is it still a Z?

The first thing I noticed was the bumper, which made me think "Porsche 911" but looking at all if it, makes me think "G-nose Z" so there you go. Since I haven't seen it up close, I'll give you the benefit of "not seeing it up close yet."

I'm not a fan of the big rims, but it looks like there is still a little air between the tires and the fender lip, which is good.

Will-
I remember the snow plow, but I don't remember the image! haha

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Gosh I love the Gnose on that thing! Some day...
GnoseZ, how was the fit of the MSA kit?

[5thhorsemann]

My Z is pulling daily driver duty for now, the paint is trashed, there are patches of spray bomb primer all over it and in general the car is not "complete". It looks like the work in progress that it is.

That said, 99% of the time I stop at a public place I get some sort of positive comment about the car. I'm constantly getting horn beeps and the old thumbs up at traffic lights and stop signs. At least once a day I get someone saying "don't see them cars around any more" or the like. It's a very common thing to walk out of a store and find people doing walk arounds on the car, even found a guy crawling under her before. And like I said, she is a little rough still. So, you don't need to have shiney brakes or a corvette motor to get attention, I actually get more than I like.

It ain't a pissing contest, it's an oppinion thread.

[hls30.com]

...
Will-
I remember the snow plow, but I don't remember the image! haha

That is so wrong, I may have to edit your signature and put that picture in it! JK-not about the "thats so wrong though!

[MotoManMike]

/\ Stanley that is the funniest thing i've seen thus far today, awesome. Born to follow, there are thousands of those drivers out there

[Mikes Z car]

I tend to think of anything that is reversible as being okay but depending on a person's skill level almost anything is reversible. I also like the idea of anything goes to overcome no longer avaialble parts.

[TomoHawk]

I also like the idea of anything goes to overcome no longer available parts

That's beginning to be a problem lately. I do some autocross, and the tech guy is getting strict. You try to explain that the car has been out of production for almost 40 years, but the tech guy just says, "It's not stock, according to the SCCA rules" to your aftermarket part, and he puts your stock S30 into a more expensive class, like ESP (E Street Prepared.)

So either you build a full-out competition car to compete in the modified class, or build a time machine to get factory parts, or you buy a new BMW, to go to the local autocross.

But for regular street driving, I would just go with whatever will make the vehicle functional, reliable, and safe, and still allows you to maintain the Z-ness. Most spectators don't know the difference, or will mis-interpret the part as a mid-model-year correction of some sort (the casting lines on the intake are supposed to be "corrective welds" so I was once told.)

[John Coffey]

That's beginning to be a problem lately. I do some autocross, and the tech guy is getting strict. You try to explain that the car has been out of production for almost 40 years, but the tech guy just says, "It's not stock, according to the SCCA rules" to your aftermarket part, and he puts your stock S30 into a more expensive class, like ESP (E Street Prepared.)

So either you build a full-out competition car to compete in the modified class, or build a time machine to get factory parts, or you buy a new BMW, to go to the local autocross.

If you're trying to compete in D Stock then yes, you need stock (or stock equivalent) parts. All of those stock or stock equivalent parts are available to build a 240Z to run in D Stock. We have a couple here in Cal Club that legally run in D Stock. What most likely happened is that you added a couple non-stock 240Z parts (like maybe those rims on your picture which are 1/2" wider then stock) so your car gets classes accordingly. SCCA's Solo2 classing systems doesn't exist to make any marque specific group happy. There is no guarantee your car will be competitive but they do guarantee a place to compete. And the 240Z is still reasonably competitive in Street Prepared and in the new Street Touring categories, although no one is really trying in those categories anymore. Its still the dominant car in FP.

[TomoHawk]

My car is a '78 John, and I'm in class E (E stock.)

But I would say all the parts are stock equivalent. It's just the little nitpicky things that tech people are concerned about, like the missing emblem that was never on the hood, since I bought the car. It makes you feel as if they don't want you there,. The rules make some allowances,mentioning "provided that the weight of the car doesn't change significantly," IIRC, but from what I've been told, the weight of a hood emblem is significant on a 2600 LB car?

The rims are from a ZX, and are the same width as the steel ones.

I considered STR or STX, but the cost of the new tires required is outrageous.

This autocross stuff should be in another topic, probably.

[John Coffey]

Sounds like your tech guys are ****heads. I have never seen the CalClub tech (of which I was in charge for a bunch of years) every take issue with a missing emblem. Those kinds of issues are left to the competitors to work our on their own or through the protest process.

[doradox]

Thanks......

You are very welcome!

[gnosez]

I think I got the last gnose that MSA had and it was terrible. I got a partial refund which I gave to the body shop. Of course they didn't have hinges so I had ones reverse engineered from an original set Mike K loaned me.

The front bumper is one that made for the gnose.

[LeonV]

Since I have a heavily modified 240Z, let me list as many as I can remember and you can decide which one(s) move it into the "no longer a Z" column.

Engine: 3.2L Rebello, triple 44mm Mikunis, TWM air box and K&N air filter, Pertonix in a euro dizzy, MSD 6AL and tach adaptor, MSA jet coated header-wrapped, AZ 6-qt oil pan with Brad Penn 20-50w green oil, GM 120amp one wire alternator, Coolflex hoses, AZ Z radiator, twin fans, custom dampener, 8mm mag wires, NGK plugs (#7), and Mallory comp fuel pump.

Suspension: TTT LCAs, TTT T/C rods, AZJDM outer tie rods, AZ Z RCAs, STS front and rear sway bars, bump steer spacers, poly bushings, GC biscuit style camber plates, cut down struts, Tokico HTS shocks, 275F/250R GC springs, PDK front strut bar, roll bar and MSA rear strut bar, 2.2 neg front camber w/4 degrees caster - 2 degrees neg rear, 0 toe, and corner balanced.

Drivetrain: 1980 280ZX tranny, race balanced drive shaft, Rod Tyler diff mount w/GM ploy bushing mount, 3:90 diff w/Quaife, 300ZXT CVs with MMS stub axles, BBS style CWW 16-inch wheels w/ Yokohoma 225/50 fronts - 245/50 rears.

Brakes: 280 booster, 15/16 MC, Wilwood fronts and 240sx rears (Porterfield pads all around)

Body: MSA g-nose w/headlight trim and covers, custom hinges, FG rear bumper, Classic Datsun rear spoiler, custom gnose airdam and splitter, custom mini-rear flare, paint, left side mirror reversed to fit right side, and AZJDM tow hooks

Interior: Cobra seats, Race Quip 3-inch harnesses, 280 tach, Panasonic radio/CD and Boston Audio speakers, Classic Datsun carpets, dynomat, and CF pedals.

Electrical: H4 head lights, LED rears, Zonthebrain relays, Pilot fogs, and Hella horns.

If not listed it's still stock (un-cracked dash, wiring harness, tail lights, etc.).

Without the since added headlight covers, trim and splitter.

So is it still a Z?

CF pedals??? That's definitely not a Z anymore. That just pushes it over the line for me.

[hls30.com]

I can't believe more people have not voted at least! I have to believe several of the passionate Z owners I know who have not jumped in have an opinion...Bueler, Bueler, Bueler...

[TomoHawk]

Body: MSA g-nose w/headlight trim and covers, custom hinges, FG rear bumper, Classic Datsun rear spoiler, custom gnose airdam and splitter,

still a Z?

Since it wasn't a Gnose in the first place, I would have to say no on this one, but the conversion looks nicely done, so you can still appreciate the car. All the rest is pretty much hidden or not as noticeable, according to the 50 MPH rule, so I could let that stuff slide.

[FastWoman]

The G-nose is still a Z, of course, but to me it really looks like a different car -- a gorgeous car, no doubt, but still not quite what I think of as a Z.

[grantf]

CF pedals??? That's definitely not a Z anymore. That just pushes it over the line for me.

Any carbon fiber is over the line. Why do pople think it looks cool. I would use CF if I lost my legs or if I where an aircraft designer.