Car Shows...what should the ideal car show be Judging-and taking into consideration?

[hls30.com]

At last years convnetion, under the park between the Westin and the Convention Center I had a conversation with an officer of the ZCCA who has a very seriously Modified Z. In the course of that conversation and several subsequent emails, we talked about Carshows (not just the ZCCA variety) in general and what Judging actually looks for-and what he felt it should, I have been weighing a good number of those conversations/emails and other similar ones I had with several people within our comunity from Zrush-while he was DJing at Zfest 2006, to a couple local club members at a Car Show weekend before last, to a recent thread here.. My opinion is that there are a lot people who want to win with what they have, and not with what is judged
The ZCCA officer though that modifications should be judged for performance more than looks-I put "that's what racing is for" on a hook and that wasn't the bait he was looking for. His car is seriously modified, and was in the convention show, but his car is modified for seat time, not for resting in an Airconditioned Convention center avoiding deductions.
Zrush spoke about his vision of his car, the journey of taking it from as purchased to as presented...and how people responded to it.
I have had conversations about there needing to be classes for people who do all of their own work, and people whos only involvement in transformations is writing checks-my opinion is there is room for both...but how do you get some of the checkwriters to tell the truth-I have seen videos of work done in a shop claimed as being done by the owner-when he wan't in the video...or any of the pictures documenting the work...
Then there is the" your Nismo is three months old, and my car is 43 years old, which one deserves a trophy"?


Personally, Any car can be beautiful, and most people will appreciate what was done to a derelict to bring it back from the brink, most people will also appreciate the story of a survivor, and I don't know too many with a contempt for a new Z right off the lot-though I was pretty damn close to that with the 350Z(marketing issues-I have mellowed...).

What would you choose as class divisions?

The poll choices are not the answers I want, think about it, what would you reward as a Judge. I made the assumption that spotlessly clean and outstanding fit and finish are givens-I also left out a Performance upgrade class because I am not sure how to evaluate that off a track...and in a static setting.
I want your thoughts!

Yes I see that I typo'd custom...I didn't want to time out and have to start over...and you can't set up a pole in wordpad-it counts in the same time span as any post-I won't tell you how I know that,,,

[gnosez]

Okay, please explain how the Gold Cup/Medallion are addressed by ZCCA and are influenced by Nissan and sponsors. Having judged 8 out of the last 11 conventions, started the pre-show free classification clinic series and conducted 4 of the judges meeting, I'm really at a loss to understand what that means.

I am also very interested in hearing from others what the difference is between "winning with what they have vs winning with what is judged (aka. by the current car classification and judging rules)".

Maybe I'm wrong but that sounds to me like folks who don't have the time or resources to get their Zs to a level of cleanliness and perfection required under the current rules. To me that smacks of an all inclusiveness requirement, like no one loses at T-ball. It would make judging easier I have to say since everyone gets a trophy. Or there is always People's Choice.

If one starts with "STOCK" then everything that deviates from whatever the benchmark you set as "STOCK" is in some form or another a sub-group of the original stock vision. Say, by modifications for instance.

Now there are other means as well to break out a new sub-group. No engine bay judging, just the interior and exterior. Oh, wait we have that, it's called "Daily Driver".

What has been missing is a survivor/un-restored class. Judging specs would need to be written and I for one would not volunteer for that job.

I guess bottom line for me is the fact that once a year, Z folks from all over the US and Canada get together to see who has the best car in their respective class. This is not a local club, a regional event like say ZDayZ or Bronson, this is the annual ZCCA convention. This is the place where the best car wins.

[72 OJ]

As a judge on an engine swap Z I will reward, the fit and finished look on the mods, the use of over counter components ( meaning a trip to NAPA or a Nissan dealer for replacements parts), a well constructed mod- made to complement the mods mechanics .... electronics, suspension,brakes,sub frame reinforcement,exhaust... and I will give high rewards in keeping the Z to look as close to original..plus it must be a completely operational on the road car.

[psdenno]

I haven't entered, or attended, a Datsun Z car show, but have participated in several national/international Porsche shows as a judge, organizer, rules committee member, and entrant. My favorite events have classes for stock, modified, and custom, as well as "senior class" for class winners who have won three 1st place awards at the clubs earlier shows. The senior class pits top cars against top cars and opens up the other classes for new opportunities to be a winner. It's important to keep everyone competitive with a chance at the top class awards and to level the playing field.
Dennis

[Arne]

Deleted my own post. Was off-topic and not relevant to the thread.

[hls30.com]

Okay, please explain how the Gold Cup/Medallion are addressed by ZCCA and are influenced by Nissan and sponsors. Having judged 8 out of the last 11 conventions, started the pre-show free classification clinic series and conducted 4 of the judges meeting, I'm really at a loss to understand what that means.


I am also very interested in hearing from others what the difference is between "winning with what they have vs winning with what is judged (aka. by the current car classification and judging rules)".

Maybe I'm wrong but that sounds to me like folks who don't have the time or resources to get their Zs to a level of cleanliness and perfection required under the current rules. To me that smacks of an all inclusiveness requirement, like no one loses at T-ball. It would make judging easier I have to say since everyone gets a trophy. Or there is always People's Choice.

If one starts with "STOCK" then everything that deviates from whatever the benchmark you set as "STOCK" is in some form or another a sub-group of the original stock vision. Say, by modifications for instance.

Now there are other means as well to break out a new sub-group. No engine bay judging, just the interior and exterior. Oh, wait we have that, it's called "Daily Driver".

What has been missing is a survivor/un-restored class. Judging specs would need to be written and I for one would not volunteer for that job.

I guess bottom line for me is the fact that once a year, Z folks from all over the US and Canada get together to see who has the best car in their respective class. This is not a local club, a regional event like say ZDayZ or Bronson, this is the annual ZCCA convention. This is the place where the best car wins.

John,
You seem to be getting bent out of shape by something that does not say what you read into it. Defending anything by brining up parts of your history tells me I manged to get your dander up! That was not my intention-I admit could have been clearer.



Find one word of criticism from me about a ZCCA convention or ZCCA show...I don't believe you can...I have left things undone that I believe need doing to support the ZCCA, but none of that is what this tread is about...It is about what people think should be judged in a car show. This thread primarily came about because of conversations I have had with ZCCA members, ZCCA show winners, ZCCA Judges, and NON ZCCA members, show winners and judges. I am not out to change, adapt, modify, alter, revamp, reconstitute, or regurgitate any ZCCA event, document, personnel, or custom. I am out to hear what other people think a car show should be. If you want to read more into it, I can't stop you, and won't continue to try, but as the OP, I can tell you that ain't what I had in mind.

[Diseazd]

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the system as she stands. There's pretty much something for everyone as things stand. A stock class Z is beautiful, but anyone who grew up with Z's in the early 70's knows that the "cool" Z's didn't stay completely stock very long......at least in Atanta, and California and everywhere else for that matter. Wheels, spoilers, exhaust etc. only enhanced the mystique of the Datsun 240Z. Therefore, 6 to 8 mods should qualify an owner for the street modified class....the one with most of the entries. I don't know about past years, but last year (my first ZCON), it seems that Gold Madallion winners were limited to show cars that were modified to hide all the cad plated items that are so damned hard to get perfect. John, Todd, Fred and all the other judges at ZCON 2011.....you did a great job......you'll never please everyone......so continue your work. The best and most beautiful Z should win in each class......whether the owner did all the work or not. No one is an expert at every phase of restoration......"Trailer Queens" will (and should) continue to take first place.

[hls30.com]

This isn't a criticism, critique or commentary on, of, or about the ZCCA judging system, it is a question for the individuals here, what would they judge as important...
I don't see any issues with the ZCCA judging system, I think others may have their own ideas... I think stock should be stock-money spent isn't the issue in the stock class, but at the same time, when you have someone takes initiative and casts his own manifolds I think his work should be seriously acknowledged-more so that the guy who threw money at ebay or a vendor and simply bolted on an existing part-there is a difference there-much the same as buying a new car and entering it and taking 40 year old and making it new....I am not sure how the distinction of made and installed vs bought and installed should be made, but I think it should be. That's part of what I am after in this thread... How do/should we award the distinction between innovation and time vs purely monetary investment.

Should a guy who bought a car ready for a show be as well received as a guy who built one...Who is the car guy there?

[psdenno]

How do/should we award the distinction between innovation and time vs purely monetary investment.
Should a guy who bought a car ready for a show be as well received as a guy who built one...Who is the car guy there?

I think you can award innovation & time when the car is not in stock class. Reward time & effort when the car is presented as stock. The more the car moves into the custom category due to body, engine, and interior modifications, the more innovation time, money and good taste come into play.

As for the guy who buys a car "ready for show" is he any less a car guy? It's the car that
s being judged, not the owner. Of course the attitude and smarminess of the owner is easy to personally judge - just no trophy to take home.

Dennis

[gnosez]

At any show there will be someone who bought a car and won a trophy. That happens at Pebble Beach and at a Z convention. I believe I now understand your concerns but this is not a judging issue this is a moral/ethical issue and most judges are neither. Okay, maybe Chris and Jim are...maybe.

I would suggest a re-reading of the rules concerning Cup and Medallion winners. One is for stock and the other is for anyone not stock. More than one car can win at any convention. In fact in Savannah a Z32 won in stock I believe with the highest score ever recorded if I remember correctly. You win one of these trophies because your car was as close to perfect as it can be whether it be stock or Ultra modified...

[hls30.com]

You just aren't getting it...,

I enjoy ZCCA shows as they are-other than a small issue with the quantity of qualified judges available, a well organized and thought out event. I know the rules pretty darn well, I know where to find them if I have a question. I am conscientious enough to review them several times before, and cary a copy while, judging. I also know they are not not the subject of this thread... Once again, don't feel I am questioning, or threatening them I am not-they simply are not the intended focus of this thread.

[Wade Nelson]

Daily drivers should be in a different category than those vehicles that people keep in garages and only haul out for car shows. Cars are meant to be driven, not just polished.

[TomoHawk]

Before I vote, I'd like to ask what you mean by "cosmetic modifications?"

Is it something you add or change that is not period correct, or deviates from "Z-ness" or just something that keeps with the Z Ness, but just isn't the stock or oem parts or design?

About the judging-
I think that daily driver, being over the usual 7 years old (when you are expected to trade in your "old" car to buy the newest model) could be 'divided' into a class that is older (25+years) and one that is newer (less than 25 years.) There are more parts available as replacements or customizations for the more recent models than the older ones, and the older ones are at a distinct disadvantage. For example, if you try to compere a 300ZX with a 240Z, you will probably lose because the 300ZX has all shiny new parts, and the 240Z has parts that have been repaired, restored, or from the JY.

Another reason to try a split in the DD class into two similar ones is that because daily drivers, being say 30+years old, will most likely have replacement parts on the engine, (injector connectors, fuel rail, alternator, etc.,) on the body (body side mouldings, emblems, bumper parts, and anything rubber or plastic) and especially inside (carpets, seats, dash cover, shifter, steering wheel, etc.)

That way, there is a class you could enter your low-budget DD and probably compete against the DD prepared by a person with a larger bankroll- especially in these current times when money and jobs can be hard to find, but not the enthusism.

[hls30.com]

Tomohawk,
By cosmetic upgrade I mean a change that is visual but offers no measureable mechanical advantage. From chrome plating(sorry to burst the bubble of those that believe Chrome makes a car faster!) To a cowl induction hood with nothing changed underneath, cosmetic modifications are purely cosmetic...

Let's quit talking in terms of existing ZCCA classes. This is not about them.

Exactly what classes would you have in an open(any Marque could compete) car show you would put on? Name and explain-what would you look for? Why! Don't worry about separating marques, the classes would apply to each one.

[gnosez]

There is only one car show I participated in where I had my Z judged and that was in 2003. Every other show whether Z related or otherwise I entered the car in People's Choice then went out and judged other people's cars. Since I drive my Z and drive it hard, there are more than 20 points that could easily be deducted if I didn't spend a few hundred hours polishing, tweaking and a few thousand dollars getting the 10 yr old paint redone.

So I'm not the person to answer your question(s) about car shows since I could care less. That said I take my role as a judge very seriously as a sign of respect for those that do care and have taken all that time and money to get their cars ready.

Now here is why I responded: "further complicated by Nissan and sponsors throwing money at those that highlight what they are selling now-somethat addressed by the ZCCA with Gold Medallion/Gold cup". I am fully confused as to what this actually means and why if this is a thread on non-ZCCA shows what it's doing in the thread.

No response is required as I'm out of here.....

[hls30.com]

Thanks John, I took out the part of my original post that you found confusing. And deleted the first of the double posts and the frustrating parts of all of my attempts at explanation, I have nothing but respect for you, and if I had any idea that you would take offense to what I posted I would not have posted it, Please accept my public apology.


Back to the thread, I will hunt down and post some highres pictures of some cars-some Zs some not to get your thoughts on...maybe this is the way I should have approached this from the start...

[zbane]

First off, I must state I've not been to a car show (judged or otherwise) in a very long time, and the class I'm going to suggest may very well already exist:
I think it'd be fun (and educational) to see cars grouped and judged against their peers from a Cost When New perspective. It seems to me that in an open marque show, having cars separated by their nation of origin, or simply domestic and import, is inherently unfair. As our cars would fall in the Import category, we'd be up against high dollar Ferraris, Jaguars, etc. Not saying that our marque shouldn't go against the exotics, but I think it'd be interesting to see our cars go head to head with price point comparable cars of the same age-never mind the country of origin.

[TomoHawk]

I would like to see cars grouped in an honest way. That means sportscars with other sportscars, not tuners or Mustangs or BMWs, ans the latter 3 aren't sportscars. Even marques like Jaguars would be in a different group, such as sedans, as there are only so many Jaguar models that are truely sportscars, and they were made decades go.Tuners should be with other tuners, and BMWs should be with other sedans.

Something like that.

[EScanlon]

Will:
This poll may need to be closed and a new one put up.

Your Title is:
Car Shows...what should the ideal car show be Judging?

Which, to me, says "What should Judges be looking FOR / AT "

I take it to mean: Exterior, Interior, Paint, Engine, Suspension, Body, Appearance Kits, Customizing, Cleanliness and Safety.

But your Poll answers deal with CLASSES, and how to discern which class a vehicle goes into.

Note also that while you use Modifications and Creations to differentiate, you don't describe what constitues a Modification or a Creation.

I'll use the Z's as a reference because this being a Z site, most people here should be familiar with them.

What defines a Modification? or a Creation? and are they the same as far as deductions or is one judged as or is one measured as more than the other?

Is there room in there for degree or percentage of a modification... meaning: what if it's a partial change--of a change that normally gets done as a kit, and the kit is normally considered one modification. Meaning, if you only put on the side skirts from a complete skirt package does that count as a half of or one complete modification? Conversely what about a modification that wasn't completed properly? (eg.: Rear tailights with Amber colored turn signal lenses but the turn signal still illuminates with the brakes applied.)

Is a 280ZX antenna on a 240Z considered a replacement part or is it a modification (Remember that the antenna tip differs. In one it actually protrudes past the body trim ring when retracted and the other retracts flush with the trim ring.)
It's not as it left the factory, but it was the superseded part as time went on. Same with the windshield, later ones had the tint. An owner who has always taken his car to the dealer for repairs and maintenance may find that thru the years, the dealer replaced items push him out of stock class and into the next.

Will you penalize the owner for dealer applied changes such as mag wheels, door ding strips, over-riders, vinyl roofs and styling packages (ZZZap, Seahawks team logo... etc.; and are they mods? Many owners, when the cars first arrived, had little if any choice over what the dealer "stuck" them with.
The waiting list was so long that when A car arrived, the choice given to the prospective buyer was: "This is what came in, do you want it or not?" --in essence: "Take it or Leave i!"; which some dealers took advantage of to include many "plus" items that were mostly mark-up. The mag wheels were applied so often that some new owners think that the Mag Wheel is the STOCK wheel. Some items were factory options, others were aftermarket and not OEM options. Again, it's not as it left the factory but they also weren't applied by the owner.

Is a paint job a deductible modification? What if it's the original color or not? or instead, a Datsun/Nissan color but not of the year or the model? What about a non-Datsun / Nissan color? or even a paint scheme where parts of the vehicle are in a different color, or the use of pin-stripes?

What about related items? that when one is changed, connecting items and other surrounding items must also be changed? How many points is that worth? Is it ONE change or are each of the items/ areas affected each counted as a change? A V8 conversion with a Turbo Charged Blower has both Engine and Body Modifications, is that one modification in each category or one? Then again a V8 change alone would require a transmission change and possibly suspension but the same question applies.

What about hidden modifications?
======

I think that before you define your classes you should look at what constitues change/modification and what changes are acceptable, with and without a deduction.

Then you can start considering if you want to enforce whether those mods, creations, or add-ons etc are Safe and/ or functional.

Does the car need to be functional?
What about individual components of the car, are they operable?
Where and how do you check the operation of those items? Who does it? When?

This would allow you to begin to establish a level, or at least an acceptable degree, of competition for all.

This, of course, doesn't even start dealing with should each model be judged within it's model year, style, etc. or can you compare a 240 against a 370 and how?

2¢
E

[TomoHawk]

I like Mr. Stokes' notion of a 'stock' class with a limit to the number of customizations, and a modified class with sponsors or not. a 'stock' vehicle would be difficult to define exactly, but it wouldn't be to difficult to pick out what things are probably not original/normal parts, if you know approximately when the vehicle was made.

But what would you do with the outliers; vehicles that are in a stock class but with too many customizations?

Modified vehicles are costly, so unless the owner has deep pockets, sponsors help a lot, and a sponsor that is some kind of restoration or customization shop can be a superior advantage over a vehicle whose owner does his own work. Also, being able to distinguish if the owner did the restoration or customizations with hand-made or off-the-shelf parts can help to segregate things in another way.

This then brings up another conundrum: it seems possible that a vehicle can fit into one or more classes, so you take some time to figure out which one you'd have a better chance to compete in.

[TomoHawk]

If you had a 'stock' class with a limit of the number of customizations, what would you do with the vehicles that are over the limit? They should probably get moved to a group with more customizations or to a 'modified' class, but that sounds like a lot of extra paperwork, to re-class the entry. Probably a (hefty) penalty for the extra customizations would be in order, in stead of a disqualification from the class altogether.