Rally anyone?

[Mike]

You guys can now start different threads related to rally racing. This means that you don't have to continue using this particular thread to discuss all of the ideas.

Just FYI.

[Zedrally]

What is it what you're trying to find out about this?
Mike

[Z-point]

What is it what you're trying to find out about this?
Mike

Mike,

Somewhere in ’72 – ’73 (or more) the Datsun’s drove in the Southern Cross Rally of Australia.

What we like to know is: what where the start numbers, license plates and (co)-drivers of the Datsun’s. And can you find any pictures?

We are trying to create a victory super list. Look at the link.

Maybe you can help down under!!

Greetings,

[Z-point]

Mike,

Somewhere in ’72 – ’73 (or more) the Datsun’s drove in the Southern Cross Rally of Australia.

What we like to know is: what where the start numbers, license plates and (co)-drivers of the Datsun’s. And can you find any pictures?

We are trying to create a victory super list. Look at the link.

Maybe you can help down under!!

Greetings,

for instance like this!
http://www.zcarworkshop.com.au/Newsite/latestnews.html


greetings,

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus and Rolf and everyone,

Since you were asking specifically about the 72 and 73 Southern Cross, I went and had a dig in my archive for those years. I found a few pieces of the puzzle - but some questions still remain.

Since the articles that I have sourced this info. from do not always give the full entry list, and certainly do not actually state the registration numbers of the cars, I have had to try a lot of cross-referencing and picture research. It does not always bear fruit, but you might find the following useful:

*1972 SOUTHERN CROSS RALLY
Car No. 1 - "TKS 33 SA 8075"
Rauno Aaltonen / Steve Halloran
( finished in overall 2nd place )
No data on any other "Works" Z entries......

*1973 SOUTHERN CROSS RALLY
Car No. 1 - "TKS 33 SU 4080"
Tony Fall / Mike Halloran
( Retired )
This car had injected "LY" Crossflow on Injection.

Car No. 2 - "TKS 33 SU 3444"
Shekhar Mehta / R. Bonhomme
( Finished outside top 10 )
This car also competed in 1973 RAC Rally.

Car No. 17 - No data on registration number.
B. Watson / J. Beaumont
( Finished 8th overall )
This seems to be a "Works" car with local crew.

I have some pictures of the Watson / Beaumont car, but I can't see the registration number clearly from them. Surely somebody in AUS will have the full story on these guys? They did well to come out on top of the other "Works" crews, that's for sure.

Here's a picture of Fall and Halloran in TKS 33 SU 4080 before they retired:

[Zedrally]

Guys,
All is at hand and we are working on the solution.
Luckly, I know Bob Watson and will be able to supply more details after I contact him.
Mike

[Zedrally]

All,
Bob Watson mailed this to me:...
MN

Mike,

Jeff Beaumont and I were part of the official factory "Datsun" team (before they
changed to "Nissan") in the 1973 Southern Cross Rally. The other team members
were the late Tony Fall / Steve Halloran, Shekhar Mehta / Roger Bonhomme, all in
240Zs, and Frank Kilfoyle/ Mike Osborne (I think) in a 180BSSS. Mehta had won
the East African Safari that year. Bruce Wilkinson ran the team .

My car had been previously run in the Monte Carlo Rally that year. It was left
hand drive, had heaps of power and a lot of traction at the rear, so it was very
prone to understeer, which made it very hard to drive. Tony Fall took me for a
drive during a testing session in the Kinglake forest, and his technique was to
constantly weave the car so that it was always in a slight oversteer attritude,
even on the straights. His comment was "if the bastard understeers, your'e
dead".

The rally was one of the wettest Southern Crosses ever - only nine or ten cars
finished the course. Tony Fall hated driving the Z in the wet, and more or less
indicted that the sooner he retired the better. Sure enough he rolled near the
end of the first night, and was last seen disappearing into a caravan with an
attractive girl. The rest of the team soldiered on, but Andrew Cowan inevitably
won in a Mitsubishi Lancer (one of his 5 Sothern Cross wins). . Kilfoyle
finished seventh, I think we were ninth and only one other car finished behind
us. Conditions were atrocious, and I must say it was one of the scariest and
most difficult drives of my career, wrestling with a very powerful left hand
drive factory car in pouring rain and slippery mud. I have some photos of the
car, but there was so much mud around that the number plates were probably
unreadable. I will check. I know the plates had Japanese registration.

Nissan finally won the Southern Cross in 1977, Rauno Aaltonen was first, Harry
Kallstrom was second (both in twin cam 710s) and I finished third with Peter
Godden in a Gerry Ball single cam 710.

Bob.

[Z-point]

This is great man, you push a button and the replays are coming in. I really love it.

Alan and all, every picture of a works car is welcome to me. This my mail address z-point@worldmail.nl

One day I will make a website as a great library of works cars pictures. Just as the victory lane page.

Keep on digging boys.

Z you

Guus

[HS30-H]

That's great stuff "zedrally" / Mike - well done. Its always great to get it from the horse's mouth too. I think Bob Watson really trumped the Works drivers to finish better placed than them, and it must have been really difficult in the Z against the smaller and more agile stuff that the other teams were fielding in the '73 race. Its not suprising that Fall crashed ( he had a reputation in Japan for being a "crasher" and car-breaker! ) - but he is in fact still very much alive and still occasionally campaigning a Historic Rally 240Z on selected events here in the UK and in Europe. Last time out, Yvonne Mehta ( Shekhar's wife ) navigated for him in the Manx Rally on the Isle of Man. That was just a few weeks ago. He retired just before the end..............

Its very interesting to hear that Bob Watson's car was "Ex Monte", and it may be possible to get a help in identifying the actual car from this. However, I have found that it is best to be careful with this until proved 100% and without doubt that the data adds up. Nissan used a fair few practice and chase cars for each event, and these were quite often cars that had actually competed in previous events. Many rally teams used to swap registration plates on cars at their convenience, and it has always been thought that Nissan were one of the few teams NOT doing this. However, it seems difficult to believe that it might not have happened just a few times at least. Registration numbers are easily changed, and of course its the Chassis / VIN number that would tell the truth about this ( almost impossible to track these down for each event, and corroborate them with the race officials after 30 odd years.............. ). We shall just have to do the best we can......

Anyway, great data - and good to have you aboard.

Alan T.

[Zedrally]

I also getting a lot of info about 260's and later Southern Cross's.
Do you want this info or do you want a "pure" 240zed list?
Mike

[Zedrally]

Hi Guus and Rolf and everyone,

Here's a picture of Fall and Halloran in TKS 33 SU 4080 before they retired:

Any chance of getting a copy? Unable to save image. Would love to use in Club Magazine. Looks like Bob Watson with back to camera!
Mike

[Doehring]

Mike (Zedrallye)
I think we should include the 260Z because even with the works cars there was a sliding transition.
Rolf

[Zedrally]

OK,
Little snippnet to add.

Mike,
I've got a photo of Ross Dunkerton in a 260Z in the 1976 Southern Cross
(which he didn't finish due to suspension problems). He started at
car#13 and the number plate looks like MGN2343.

1976 - ah, those were the days when rally drivers were real men;
Day 1: 900km total
Day 2: 950km total
Day 3: 750km total
Day 4: 790 km of which 590 competitive (including one stage of 218km!).

There are two pics of Zeds at the 'Cross at the AMSAG site - Bob Watson
and Shekhar Mehta (you'll be hard pressed to identify number plate
though!)

The AMSAG site mentioned is down at present so I'm not sure of the photo's mentioned. Will add more as I will contact Frank Kilfoyle to see if he has anmore to add.

Mike

[Zedrally]

Amazing what this digging does.

For Sale

I think i can answer your query very easily Mike , read below.

DATSUN 240Z
DATE: 06 May 2002
CATEGORY: Rally Cars
PRICE: $16,500
CONTACT NAME: Gavin Edwards
CONTACT NUMBER: 03 8704 9828
CONTACT EMAIL: gavinedwards@unite.com.au
ENGINE NUMBER: L28415777
REGISTRATION: ch 4750
DESCRIPTION:
Datsun 240 zed rally car for sale .

This car is #573, trying to find out what it did before it was re-built.

Gavin adds:
This car was built by David Greig for rallying in the late 1980's , its won the VRC ,
VCRS x 2 and the VCAS series .

4 wheel vented discs , with racing front discs and a balance bar. Koni wet legs with adj
rebound , adj platforms and arms etc. Option 1 gearbox with works sandwich plate and brass
synchros. 4.4 r200 lsd freshly rebuilt. new unis through out [ genuine ] rally seats and
harnesses . Pro trip and map lights . Engine originally built by Les Collins , currently
features ; flat tops ,fly cut with floating gudgeons, freshly balanced crank , Les head with
40 mm ports , datrally manifold with 3x 45 dcoe's,oil cooler , big extractors and button
clutch.

Will throw in a complete rolling 240 zed shell and some spares for 16,500. email me on
gavinedwards@unite.com.au or ph 03 8704 9828 .

[Caen Fred]

Or is it old news?

Bandama 1971 : 240z 5th

The Turcot-Dhaut datsun 240z finished #5th on the 1971 3rd bandama rally.
They where 35 at the start and only 9 at the end.

[Zedrally]

Good news!
amsag is up again, for those that are interested amsag run the Southern Cross rally series (yes, it still exists].
Cruise over and check it out.
www.amsag.com.au
Mike

[Doehring]

Hallo Fred,
are you shure it was 1971 or was it 1974? In 1974 there also was a Z at 5th position ? Please check.

Rolf

[Caen Fred]

I am sure it’s before 1973, because I took this info from a 1972 SportAuto mag.
As it was the February issue, I suppose that they where referring to the 1971 race (If I remember well, they didn’t had any race in 1972!).
That’s my report for the day, boss.
Fred

[Z-point]

OK,
Little snippnet to add.

Mike,
I've got a photo of Ross Dunkerton in a 260Z in the 1976 Southern Cross
(which he didn't finish due to suspension problems). He started at
car#13 and the number plate looks like MGN2343.

Speaking about Ross Dunkerton
How about this, read all about it!!!!
http://www.jumma.photoarena.co.uk/news/250301rtts.html
http://www.zcarworkshop.com.au/Newsite/latestnews.html
http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/20687/...ges/media.html


regards,

[Z-point]

Fred,

Will you please translate the Datsun part for me? Perhaps it un raffle the bandama puzzle!


http://www.team-frl.com/retro/retro6.html

regards,

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus,

Isn't that the year when the Bandama Rally failed to get a result because all of the competitors dropped out? I think they all crashed or broke down before the finish - very unusual!

Raudet and Sausset from France were driving in a "Works" 240Z, but I don't know the registration number of the car. It was probably a car that was left in Africa after the Kenya 2000 or the Safari ( maybe the previous year's Safari event ) - maybe one of the high-speed Tender or Practice cars.

My list of "Works" cars is getting quite long now - but still MANY events that they competed in keep coming out of the woodwork, and yesterday I found a photo of ANOTHER "Works" car that I had never seen the registration number of before. I am getting close to 50 different "Works" car registration numbers now........

Happy hunting.

Alan T.

[Zedrally]

Hi all,
Loving all this detail but I'm afraid that 9 pages is getting a bit big when you're trying to sort out details.
I would rather mention this now, because at this rate we could be up to 100pages and utterly lost!
Could I suggest that we start a new thread for either each year or each rally.
At least in this fashion information will be easier to obtain, verify or add to.

[Doehring]

Zkid sent some days ago great pictures from Zs at the scruteneering of this years Classic Adelaide. 7 240Zs and 1 260Z started and made good results. Look at www.classicadelaide.com
Zs are alive !
Rolf

[Doehring]

Edgar Herrmann and Hans Schuller were successful Safari Rallye competitors and two times winners in a Z . I just got the information that also Hans Schuller is already dead.
I was looking out for him for an interview, sorry, I'm too late.
God bless him.
Rolf

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Doehring
Edgar Herrmann and Hans Schuller were successful Safari Rallye competitors and two times winners in a Z . I just got the information that also Hans Schuller is already dead.
I was looking out for him for an interview, sorry, I'm too late.
God bless him.
Rolf

Sad to hear Schuller is dead, now he is also a Legend!!

[HS30-H]

Hi Rolf and Guus,
( Guus - long time no see!.......... )

Very sad to hear that Hans Schuller is also not with us any more. Herrmann passed away some years ago - so one of the most successful of pairings in Rally Zs has now gone.
It would have been very interesting and educational to talk to both of them. Schuller in particular, as he took part as both a Navigator and a driver on the Safari Rally, and also the Le Mans 24 Hour race in '75 - all in Z cars.

I'd like to see Rauno Aaltonen's memories of his Nissan / Datsun years in print at some point in the future. So far he seems to have been reluctant to be interviewed, although he used to do many interviews with Japanese magazines back in the 1970's.

Alan T.

[Z-point]

It’s getting crazier all the time

But after all it's a nice 'plan' to work from

Also have a look at my web page, there's a lot of new pages attached with many picture…GO for it!!!!

[Z Kid]

Where did you get that poster from, I could see something like that taking pride of place on my bedroom wall. In two years of searching, I have never found a 240Z poster in aus.

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Z Kid
Where did you get that poster from, I could see something like that taking pride of place on my bedroom wall. In two years of searching, I have never found a 240Z poster in aus.

Z kid


I never found the poster because there is no poster of! Don’t look any further.
I made it myself. I have a large file (5Mb) of the picture and let somebody plot it. I don’t know if that is the right word for it. But I can make every size I want A4, A3, A2, A1, A0.

[TomoHawk]

I agree that NASCAR isn' t that exxciting.
How many times can you spin around in a cxircle before you get DIZZY? Really, it doesn't seem to take a lot of talent to mash the pedal down and turn the wheel left.

Rally racing means:

YOU got out to look over the course and take notes.
You find somebody wo doesn't get nauseous while reading in the car to call out notes.
You practice driving like an idiot all over town & back roads.
The rest is probably the same as circle-track stuff.

[TomoHawk]

I just had a neat idea ( I think)--
I found my old aviation whiz wheel, and it made me think, "Wy can't you make a time-speed-distance whiz wheel you could use (or co-driver) while you are travelling down the road?

Is there any software that allows you to print a whiz wheel thing, or would you have to draw it by hand?

I haven't worked out details yet, but it involves matching time & distance for initial speed, then you adjust it to your odometer and timer while driving to get the new speed to go. the whiz wheel should be safer than using a calculator, meaning it should only take a sec or two to look at & adjust the wheel, then another sec or two to read it. I'm sure I could write a program for my notebook computer or PDA (*choke!*), then keep it on the seat (notebook) or velcro it to the dash (PDA).

just a thought, and

I'm full of it.

[Doehring]

Hi, here in Germany you can have a DVD about last years classic Safari. Many sequences of the winning 240 Z are included. Hot!

[BarneyP510]

G'day everyone

HSOH you mentioned in this thread (albeit back in 2002) that you had MK63 calipers for your Z. I am building a P510 for rally using ex works Southern Cross Rally gear I acquired here in Australia via www.datrats.com.au. FIA head (late model), 50mm Mikunis (magnesium bodied), magnesium airbox, option 2, R200 4 ramp pinion etc.

My problem is I can't source MK63 calipers anywhere?

Any advice?

Thanks
Brad

[Z-point]

If you can’t find the MK63 like the most of us why not switch to the Toyota callipers? Again like most of the Z drivers…

[HS30-H]

G'day everyone

HSOH you mentioned in this thread (albeit back in 2002) that you had MK63 calipers for your Z. I am building a P510 for rally using ex works Southern Cross Rally gear I acquired here in Australia via www.datrats.com.au. FIA head (late model), 50mm Mikunis (magnesium bodied), magnesium airbox, option 2, R200 4 ramp pinion etc.

My problem is I can't source MK63 calipers anywhere?

Any advice?

Thanks
Brad

Hi Brad,
I bought some parts from Errol at Datrats a few years back. Very nice guy and very good to deal with.

Sumitomo are still making the vented disc version of the MK63-20S in small batches. I can probably hook you up with a pair.

Can you send me a PM with your direct e-mail address? I'll send you some pics and info.

Cheers,
Alan T.

[BarneyP510]

Thanks Alan
PM is on the way.

Regards
Brad

[HS30-H]

Brad,
PM received. Sending you an e-mail soon.

Cheers,
Alan T.

[zman525]

ive been interested in rally racing for awhile now and it was actually any option and still is for my Z.... I live in Massachusetts and would really love to get into this. I dont know whats around in my area but i know new hampshire seems to be a real race place. I dont really want my Z to be a daily driver, i want it to be something special ( not that its not special being a Z and all). Well some details about my Z is that its a 76 cali 280z. Its in restoration now, doing everything right and restoring it properly, came with new fenders , headlight buckets, headlight covers and so on. I believe it has a new suspension in it, possibly tockico lowering springs cuz it sits lower than most Z's. Ive been into racing stuff for awhile. I have been rippin around on a dirt bikes for the past 10 years, 4 wheeling, snowmobiling ( im just a racing kinda guy =P) Anyways ill stop rambling and ask my questions finaly. What would i need to do to my Z to rally it? where could i rally it? how the hell do i get in to it? thanks!

[black gold man]

"Did you guys notice how few of our American friends seem to be interested in the Le Mans and Works Rally cars? I have not noticed many posts from them ( despite Mike starting this thread ) and I wonder if thet are tuning in or not? Is anyone out there?! Hope that you are not bored, because we are having a great time with this......Alan T"

I am reading now if it makes you feel better Alan.