Rally anyone?

[Mike]

Anyone on this board into rally racing? I've been watching it on Speedvision a lot lately. I've always been into racing, but, this looks like it would be a lot more challenging than a standard race.

I'm interested in it, where do I start looking and who do I talk to?

I'm really interested in the Zcar aspect of it.

[ninja240z]

I love the crap out of rally racing. If I would use a Z car it would be a 73 model 240z because the gauge of the panels are a little thicker. Also I think that it would be the perfect motorsport for those rusted out 240z's because if you wreck there is really no lost ().

[Mike]

Here's a link to a video from Speedvision. It's about
18MB, so, better have a fast connection. I also paused
it once it started playing to let the video load all the way.

Anyway, awesome video compilation with music by
Linkin Park.

http://216.149.233.131/files/movie/wrc-high.wmv

(looks like that link no longer works )

[StinkyFatPig]

Yeah rally racing is the only kind of car racing I really like. Never cared for NASCAR, not enough excitement. I live on the west coast of Canada, Vancouver island. And I heard rumors of them bring a race to a mountain range about 30 mins from my house. So if they go with it I am building a care for sure. But I probably wouldn’t use a Z, I am going with an older carolla, like early 80s. I had a 1980 corolla once and it was basically a rally car stock. Sweet cars

[shock96]

Rally racing looks as fun as can be! I think that a Subaru Turbo coupe would be a pretty great car for that as well. You can pick them up cheap and you can't beat AWD.

Mike

[Z-point]

Hi all,

Yep mike, I am considering also to do historic rallying in Europe as well. I even adjust the colors of my Z car to it. It now has the looks of a Monte Carlo ’72 Z car.
I will tell you the whole story later.

regards,

Guus vd Bol
Z-point

[Mike]

Hiya Gus,

Looks like you've figured out how to add a picture to your name field on the left side of the messages! Good job! If that's the Z you're talking about... yes, it does look like it's ready for rally.

[Mike]

Originally posted by StinkyFatPig
Yeah rally racing is the only kind of car racing I really like. Never cared for NASCAR, not enough excitement. I live on the west coast of Canada, Vancouver island. And I heard rumors of them bring a race to a mountain range about 30 mins from my house. So if they go with it I am building a care for sure. But I probably wouldn’t use a Z, I am going with an older carolla, like early 80s. I had a 1980 corolla once and it was basically a rally car stock. Sweet cars

Ya, it seems to me that the Zcar might be too heavy for sufficient rally results. The little Toyotas, Hondas, and Peugeots will probably run circles around it.

But, I don't know for sure... that's why I asked here.

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Mike


Ya, it seems to me that the Zcar might be too heavy for sufficient rally results. The little Toyotas, Hondas, and Peugeots will probably run circles around it.

But, I don't know for sure... that's why I asked here.

I’m not quite sure about that statement . Go to the next links to find out its possible to rally with an old Z and by victorious as well
http://www.lightman.co.uk/mjp/rally.html

Check out Rick Hintz's Z-TEAM at http://zhome.com/Racing/RALLY/Hintz.htm

A Z car has already a natural height from its self, you could see this as an advantage, that’s why it outraced the Porsches and the Ford Escorts in the safari rally’s in south Africa.
They went flat out thought the deserts, bushes etc.

Guus
Z-point

[Mike]

Great links! Thank you. It is surprising to see how well the Z can do in rally. Starting as an amateur could work very well with a Z. It's a cheap car, easy to work on, and is a great performer.

[Mike]

Originally posted by Z-point
Hi all,

Yep mike, I am considering also to do historic rallying in Europe as well. I even adjust the colors of my Z car to it. It now has the looks of a Monte Carlo ’72 Z car.
I will tell you the whole story later.
Z-point

So, what's up with the black hood? How did that become a color scheme for rally ? Did someone make this popular when they couldn't manage to finish painting their car before the race ?

How did this fad start?

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Mike


So, what's up with the black hood? How did that become a color scheme for rally ? Did someone make this popular when they couldn't manage to finish painting their car before the race ?

How did this fad start?

It started in the early seventies. All the cars that participate in rallies had that color scheme,
the Volvo’s, the Fiat’s, Porsches, BMW’s Datsun’s, Peugeots. The whole bunch, they all believed in it!

This color scheme was modern at that time because it reduced the sun reflecting in the bonnet. That rallies mostly where driven in the Mediterranean countries like Spain, Italy, Greece, the Middle of Africa, and Portugal.
They were a head of the world rally championship http://www.worldrallychampionship.net/ that is going on right now.

If you visit this link a lot will be clear how ‘we’ did it in those rallies!



Here are some nice links. I copied the pics from the Kyosho program. And as you could see, the rally cars and the Z432 from Datsun are equipped with a black bonnet.

regards,

Guus
Z-point

[rodd]

I've read that there was a film done on the 240Z winning the 1971 Safari rally. It was the highest rating film in Japan that year!
Has any one ever seen or heard of it?
See the original car is in Nismo's museum!

[Mike]

Rod, is that a pict from the museum? (I assumed it is)

Where is the museum located? Australia?

That is awesome and I'd love to see that. If it's in Australia, hopefully it's around the Melbourne area because I will be coming down there in Feb-March of this year.

[Z-point]

Originally posted by rodd
I've read that there was a film done on the 240Z winning the 1971 Safari rally. It was the highest rating film in Japan that year!
Has any one ever seen or heard of it?
See the original car is in Nismo's museum!

Hi Rodd,

Is your name Westwood? In that case long time no see :-))
We spoke way back in '98 about modelkits of the no.5, remember?

I knew about the cars are kept in a museum but did not know where. You brought me in a good direction, Nismo!

I do have a Japanese magazine with awesome pictures of the two cars but as I can not read Japanese I did not know if it was an ‘old’ story or what. Now I know they are alive, yes!!!


When I got my scanner back (broke up) I will send you the picture of the magazine.
About the film you mentioned I do have some video about the safari but I have to dig in my stuff.

I will come back to you a.s.a.p.

Regards,

Guus van der Bol
Z-point
Holland

[rodd]

Mike
I'm afraid its in Japan.
I'm in Torquay, about 60miles south of Melbourne. How long are you in Melbourne for? I'm a real 240z nut, have a big collection of Datsun models.


Guus
Yes I'm Rodd Westwood.
The monte car is also in the museum. I wonder how we could track down the Safari movie. Have we got many japanese members.
I'd love to see your safari footage.

[Mike]

Originally posted by rodd
Mike
I'm afraid its in Japan.
I'm in Torquay, about 60miles south of Melbourne. How long are you in Melbourne for? I'm a real 240z nut, have a big collection of Datsun models.

Rodd,

I'm still trying to plan the trip. One week will be to work (only 9-5), but, I am considering a week to 'roam' Australia.

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Mike


Rodd,

I'm still trying to plan the trip. One week will be to work (only 9-5), but, I am considering a week to 'roam' Australia.

Rodd, Mike,

Here is an interesting link to an article about the two Z cars.
Rodd did you know about this?

http://www.zdriver.com/articles/full_article.php?ID=84


I think I have to be friendlier next time to Mr Katayama maybe he will invite me one time.

Guus

[rodd]

Yep
Thats where I got the pics from.
Guus did I ask you about the LeMans 240z?

[Caen Fred]

Hey, I have access to the Le Mans car, it's still in France. I plan on doing a litle article on that car later this year, if the owner is Ok

[Doehring]

A article on the Le Mans Z would be great. I have some few pictures and the 1:43 resine model. At the 24 H de Spa there once raced a red 260Z 2+2. Is anybody on the list who knows about that car or who has pictures or an idea how to get more infos. The belgian automobile club couldn't or wouldn't helpp on my e-mail request

Rolf

[Z-point]

Hi guys,

Sure an article would be super!! The world isn’t that big anymore.
I always thought the former rally cars were gone but this list brought me back on one foot.

No Fred tells us even the Le Mans car is still alive….Is this heaven???? I’m back on two feet’s now.
We do have pictures enough now we want to see the real Car. Fred by al means. Search and rescue!!!

Greetings,

Guus
Z-point

[Doehring]

Hi all,

the 260 was also quite successful at the Bandama Rallye and with Shekar Mehta on the continent. Does anyone have more information on the Museum in Japan. I heard some rumors that there is another interesting rallye car that is quite unknown to the public: the 280 ZX that appeared in Greece, Portugal and - I'm not shure - at the RAC in GB. I'm looking for pictures of that car ond technical details. I think the drivers had been Japanese.
Sorry for mentioning a Datsun ZX on that Z page but concerning Datsuns in Rallye it's of interest.

Rolf

[rodd]

I started building the Fujimi 1/20th Lemans 240z and would love pics of the original if anyone has any.
Love to find out more details of the LeMans 240Z.
All I know is that it was an ex rally car, ran at LeMans twice, finishing one year and crashing the other I think.
Thanks Rodd

[HS30-H]

Just to update DOEHRING about that NISMO "museum" in Japan; in fact Nissan showed two of the Works S30 Rally cars they still own at the NISMO headquarters ( called the "Omori Factory" ) in Omori Tokyo. This was a special promotion in late November and early December 2001 to coincide with the "NISMO FESTIVAL" event at Fuji Speedway, where the "new" Fairlady Z was shown to the general public ( to be sold as the "350Z" in the USA ).
Nissan actually still own at least three S30 "240Z" Works Rally cars, as well as many other important ex-competition Datsun, Nissan and Prince cars. However, these cars are normally kept in Yokohama ( in a building called the "Nissan Memorial Sports Hall" which is in reality a large hanger that is not open to the general public ). One day maybe they will make a proper museum..............
Please note that the Nismo HQ at Omori, Tokyo is most definitely NOT a museum! This is the main HQ of NISMO and is very much a working and creative facility, with race-car building and planning going on, as well as special servicing on high-performance Nissans for customers. This site was originally the HQ of Datsun Competition ( "Sport Corner" etc. in Japan ) and has a great and long history. The two S30 Rally cars on display were the no.5 car driven by Rauno Aaltonen on the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally ( finishing third ) and the no. 21 car driven by Edgar Herrmann on the 1971 Safari Rally ( overall winner ). Both cars are in amazingly original and unmolested condition with fantastic patina and almost nothing missing.
I was lucky enough to visit the Omori Factory at just the time when the two cars were on temporary display ( I also visited the NISMO FESTIVAL at Fuji Speedway ) and the staff there were kind enough to let me take many photos of the cars after crawling under, over and all through them. Anyone who thinks that these cars were anything like a "standard" car would be in for a real big surprise....................
Another genuine ex-Works 240Z is currently under restoration in the UK. There are very very few survivors of the Works rally campaign.
DOEHRING asked about a Rally 280ZX possibly entered by a Japanese privateer crew on the RAC rally in the UK. I photographed this car several years ago in a small museum in Japan near Fuji Speedway. I still have at least one photo and I will try to dig it out. It was indeed a privateer effort, sponsored by the Japanese importer of CIBIE spotlamps - and the museum that the car is now in belongs to the CIBIE importer. That car was nothing like as special as the Works S30-type Rally cars.
Perhaps DOEHRING would like to get in touch with me if he is interested in more info.

[Z-point]

Those two cars you mentioned we have seen at the former placed pictures by Rodd from Australia. Scroll upwards and you find them.. Great stuff indeed. Always thought there gone!
I really like to see more of your crawling under the car pictures!! I’m trying to give my car the looks of a MC rally no5 car therefore it would be very interesting to have a look at you pictures.

I personally visit Kevin Bristow last year to have a look at his former rally car. He’s very dedicated to get that car on the road again. And he will I’m sure about that.

Regards,

Guus
Z-point

[HS30-H]

Hello Guus, How do you do?

I have heard about your Monte Carlo rally Z project, and in fact had seen pictures of it. Glad that you are doing something that not many people try to do.

I have about 300 photos of the Works rally Zs that were on temporary display at the Nismo HQ in Omori, Tokyo last year. They let me go all over them ( once we found the keys ) and let me have full access - so I could sit in them and pretend to be Rauno and Edgar on the stages..........

Tell me what areas of the cars you are particularly interested in and I will try to select some of the best shots.

I also have a big archive of period books and magazines ( particularly Japanese race magazines like Autosport and Auto Tecnic ) which contain great articles, as well as a lot of contemporary Japanese stuff like NOSTALGIC HERO and OLD TIMER magazine. I am sure that you have a copy os "NOS HERO" which has just beautiful photography.

Kevin Bristow is a good friend of mine and I have been helping him to research his own ex-Works 1971 RAC Rally 240Z. He is making an absolutely fantastic job of it, and it is progressing well.

I actually have some performance parts that would suit your Monte Carlo replica well - I import a lot of stuff from Japan for my own cars as well as for the Rally and Circuit racers in the UK. I can get some parts that you might have thought were not available any more. Let me know what you need.

Have you seen any pictures of Vince Budd's Monte Carlo Rally Z replica from here in the UK? He has made a pretty good job too, and has used some parts from me quite recently too. His 4.6 R200 LSD will make a big difference to his stage times I think!

Stay in touch, and tell me what you want to see details wise on those photos.

All the best,

Alan Thomas ( London, UK - "HS30-H" )

[Z-point]

Hi Alan,

Great car you have! Reminds me at properly the first Z car I saw from….. Tamiya.

I still have the idea we have met in Holland at the racetrack in Zandvoort (‘90), is this correct? Did you ever have a red 240z very low a very fast?

Have you seen me latest picture attached to this club, http://www.240z.org/photopost/index....o=171&size=big
I’m still busy to make the final touch; decals of Seiko, Dunlop and NGK. My friend and I are creating replica decals of all three firms. Sure I have seen the Z car of Vince; I visited Billing last summer and met him over there. Problem is his car is a 260Z! Before we went to Billing we visited Kevin at his garage. What a great place to visit. It looked a bit like my place, all sorts of parts in all corners, great. But what a dedication to make that historic rally car compatible again.

I envy you because you had the opportunity to visit the rally twins and sit in them as well!!
The first thing in my mind was “I want all of the 300 pictures”, the second and latest thing in the same mind was I stick to that. If that is a problem then I consider taking less but otherwise I very much like to pay for all 300! I do have a copy of Nostalgic Hero no.260 where the twins are being described, very nice pictures. I always thought Nissan had nothing to do with history but in on the contrary they do! After the cars where displayed I mailed my man at Nissan Japan to take action in finding those two. But he was too late, they where already brought back to the ‘museum’. And now you are coming with an offer, it’s amazing.

You mentioned parts, what kind of parts are they? What I like to have are factory wheels, I know they exist but they are expensive! For the rest tell me.

Regards,

Guus
Z-point

[Z-point]

Originally posted by rodd
I started building the Fujimi 1/20th Lemans 240z and would love pics of the original if anyone has any.
Love to find out more details of the LeMans 240Z.
All I know is that it was an ex rally car, ran at LeMans twice, finishing one year and crashing the other I think.
Thanks Rodd

Hi Rodd,

this all what I have at this moment, you liki it?

Guus
Z-point

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Z-point


Hi Rodd,

this all what I have at this moment, you liki it?

Guus
Z-point

stupid off me wrong picture

sorry

Guus
Z-point

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus,

Thanks for your response.

That certainly wasn't me that you met at Zandvoort - I was living in Japan in the early '90s. The last time I went to Zandvoort was probably about 1976, but yes I did have a 110 Red '73 UK-spec. 240Z that was pretending to be a Fairlady 240Z with lots of period option stuff ( factory headlamp covers, mesh grille, 8-spoke RS Watanabe wheels, all emblems Japanese-spec. etc. etc. ). That used to be my daily driver, but I sold it on.

Regarding the photos of the Works Rally cars that I took at the "Omori Factory" in Tokyo - well, copying 300-odd photos is going to be a pretty arduous task, not to mention expensive. At least half of them are of the Safari car, rather than the Monte car ( although I would have thought you would be interested in both ). Far better for us to narrow down the areas that you are most interested in, so that I can edit it a bit. Bear in mind that they are pretty precious to me, and simply passing all of them on to you will be a bit of a wrench. This kind of thing is not easy to get hold of, and I did a real lot of leg-work ( not to mention spending a lot of money ) to visit Japan and see the cars. Nissan hardly ever lets the "General Public" see them, so short of a "Royal Audience" by command I had to wait until they came on show to all. I will scan up some tasters for you and post them below later tonight.

Love those pictures of the Le Mans cars above. I have been trying to understand the truth and all details about those cars for quite a while now. Are both those photos old ones from the period in question? I heard that the second-year car was still in existence in the Poitiers region of France, but it must surely have been rebuilt or re-shelled from the crashed car? I think they were a little creative with their entry for the first year, as the car was described as something different to what its Japanese registration plate number said it was........... Do you know anything about all this? I am trying to establish whether that car really was an ex-Works rally car, and if the two cars that raced at Le Mans in successive years really were in fact one car ( meaning it changed from a 240Z into a 260Z - as I say, I think they were a little creative ). I would love to hear what info. you have, and maybe that would be a good trade for some photos!

As for parts for your Monte Carlo Rally replica - what do you need? If you want to go the whole hog it will cost a lot of Yen. I have replicas of the "Rally Mag" wheels that were originally made by Kobe Seiko for Nissan, however they are cast aluminium rather than forged magnesium ( to keep costs down and last longer ). However, they are REALLY expensive - and I mean REALLY. I also have a pair of excellent replicas of the factory bucket seats ( the ones that were manufactured for Nissan by Ikeda Bussan ). The Monte car that you are replicating had a pair of these, but some of the Safari and RAC Rally cars had a reclining version for the navigator. These seats are also MEGA expensive. I also have some hard mechanical parts, such as R200 LSD Diffs. ( 4.1, 4.3, 4.6 & 5.1 available - no 4.8 ) although you will find that the Monte cars on that year had an R180, and these are too easy to break so I don't recommend them. Some of the factory Rally cars used the R192 Diff. ( not the R190 - that is different ) which was fitted to the Z432 and Skyline GT-R - but they are so expensive that there is no point, and you can hardly see it anyway! I have MK63 4-pot front brake calipers, Factory Rally struts / legs ( F & R ), and the Datsun Competition steering wheel. I am making a replica of the 100 Litre fuel tank ( with the corresponding "flat floor" in place of the spare wheel well ) for my project 432R replica - and lots of details on the shell were similar. In fact, you could call some of the factory Rally cars a 432R ( PS30-SB ) shell with an L-series engine installed. In essence, that's what they were - but obviously with all the special Rally bits. Many of the Japanese circuit race parts are shared with the Rally cars.

I could go on about all this stuff forever, and bore 99% of the audience to death! If you want to correspond about it, just let me know. Now that I have my new scanner installed ( bought today! ) I can scan a few photos and put them up for you. In the meantime, here's a taster of the Rally Mag wheels and the Ikeda Bussan seat replicas;

See you,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H ).

[HS30-H]

Guus,

Starting to get the hang of my new scanner now.

Here are some photos as a taster of the Works Monte Carlo Rally Car at Nismo's HQ back in December.

They are the engine bay, Rauno's "office" , and the Jacking Point on the left-hand side sill. You might need to replicate the jacking point for your replica car...............

See you again soon,

All the best,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H )

[HS30-H]

Here's the "office" and Jacking Point;

[rodd]

Guus
Thanks for the pic. Do you know if they are the same car?
The Fujimi Kit is of the No 73 car. seems to be a reasonabley accurate model except for not having a G nose. Have attached a couple of pics of the box.

HS30-H There is a pic of the No 72 LeMans car in the book "The Z series Datsuns by Ray Hutton" It shows it with a the Number Plate TKS 33 6466 and points out this was an ex factory 260Z rally car as used in the 1974 RAC rally.

Great info and great pics. Your definitly not boring me. Keep the pics and info coming. My favorite car is the 73 Safari winning car. I'm building the Tamiya 1/12th scale model of it. Any info and pics would be greatly appreciated.

[rodd]

Here are the model pics

[rodd]

Side of Box

[rodd]

Heres the 1975 LeMans car.
I believe the rego is TKS33 su 6466

[rodd]

Heres the pic of the 260z with the same rego in the 1974 RAC Rally, also taken from Ray Huttons book.

[Z-point]

Alan,

Are you single, would you like to get married?

That would be probably the easiest way to get hold of these items ;-))


Indeed great stuff but what is a lot of Yen’s?
And I don’t want to rob you from you’re pictures I’m trying to find a way to get copies of it. Do you still have the negatives? Or otherwise, these days it’s possible to make new photos from the originals! The cost is all mine. And yes, I’m also interested in the rally car as well.

If you prefer to go private, the mail address is z-point@worldmail.nl.

I’ll keep it short this time I have to clean myself and prepare the trip to my mother, Mothers days you know!

Until later,
Guus
Z-point

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus and hi Rodd,

Well Guus, I AM single ( but "shacked up" ) so you can't really marry me - but what colour hair do you have????!!!! Nah, even if you marry me I won't give you the parts......

Seriously though, those Kobe Seiko Rally Mag replicas are REALLY expensive in Japan. I guess you are using Euros in Holland now, but in Pounds Sterling they work out at £300 EACH. That's the RETAIL price in Japan too - so you need to add the cost of shipping and duty too. That makes for a very exclusive set of wheels - but if you are aiming at making an accurate replica of the Monte Carlo car then I guess nothing else will do....... just don't look my way if you want cheap prices. Its just as expensive for me too. The prices of parts on my ZG made my hair turn grey and then start falling out.

I shall pick up on this with you privately - thanks for your e-mail address.

Rodd!
Thanks for the posts about the Le Mans cars, and glad to hear that you are also into the Works rally cars. Did you actually know that Nissan also still own the '73 Safari rally-winning car? They hardly ever show it ( it is in pretty-much the same condition as it finished the Rally ) and they keep it in Yokohama with the other two cars that they had on show at the NISMO HQ in December.Maybe one day they will make a proper museum, and you can get to see your favourite-ever Z in the flesh.

I have not seen that Fujimi kit of the '76 Le Mans car before ( despite having a lot of their other Z kits that I have never made ) and was interested to see that they made the kit without the aerodynamic front end on it - but with all the "overfenders" and the big rear wing. Notice also the BMW CSL "Batmobile" style mini-spoiler above the rear hatch glass. Very interesting. Wonder why it was not as accurate as it should have been?

Thanks for the pictures of "6466" in Works rally car guise ( as driven by Harry Kallstrom ). I have some other photos of the car too. This car was a full-house,close to final development of the Works rally cars - with Injected "LY" Crossflow engine, 110 Litre fuel tank, vented rear disc brakes and the big diff. It was driven by Kallstrom on the '74 TAP Rally in Portugal, and then by Cahal Curley in the '74 RAC Rally in UK. Then it passed into the hands of Englishman Chris Sclater for a semi-Works supported career. PLEASE NOTE THAT AT THIS TIME IT WAS LEFT-HAND-DRIVE.

Hence my doubt about the true identity of the car that was entered at Le Mans in '75................. That car seemed to have suddenly been fitted with the whole rear panel from a "240Z" ( including the lights and trim pieces ) and had miraculously changed from LHD to RHD. This makes me wonder if indeed it REALLY WAS "6466" - or if the Japanese registration identity plates had been switched onto an earlier car in order to legalise its entry at Le Mans????? I certainly do not recall hearing that the '75 Le Mans car had rear disc brakes and a fuel-injected "LY" Crossflow engine - which was what "6466" was fitted with in its Rally career. And why would they change the whole rear panel to an earlier type? Surely if it was damaged they would have easily been able to find the correct "260" type panel and lights??? What about the ( if I am indeed right ) conversion from LHD to RHD? Does it make sense?

Certainly, Hans Schuller had good contacts with the factory and the Works Rally team staff - so he would have been well connected enough to pick up a "tired" ex-Works rally car and modify it for Le Mans. Schuller did some circuit racing in Japan for the Works team, and was apprently no slouch despite the fact that he was a navigator for Edgar Herrmann.

I really wonder whether the '74 Le Mans car was in fact an ex-Works 240Z Rally car - rather than "6466" which was a 260Z. Maybe they needed to pull some kind of switch in order to get the car into its class at Le Mans, and to "give" it the identity of "6466" helped this? The most fascinating thing in all this is to find out what actually happened to "6466" and what was the identity of the seemingly ex-Works 240Z Rally car that they put "6466"s identity on for the Le Mans entry?

I was also wondering if the '75 & '76 Le Mans cars were in fact the same car ( this does not seem to be mentioned anywhere ) and if the '76 Le Mans car still exists, despite the sadly fatal crash? If it did exist, it would be possible to pin down its true identity and clear this mystery up somewhat.........

Did you guys notice how few of our American friends seem to be interested in the Le Mans and Works Rally cars? I have not noticed many posts from them ( despite Mike starting this thread ) and I wonder if thet are tuning in or not? Is anyone out there?! Hope that you are not bored, because we are having a great time with this.......

More on this soon, all the best for now,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H ).

[Caen Fred]

I will see what is suposed to be THE LE MANS car on saturday 25 may. The owner will bring it to a race track near Poitiers. They have a Le Mans Revival show. I will ask as many questions that I can, take all the shot I can and try like mad to have a run in it...
I will check the numbers if I can, so we will know what really is this car!
I will keep you informed anayway, Fred

[rodd]

Fred
Can't wait to see your pics.
Does anyone know how damaged the car was in its accident, or what caused it?

[rodd]

Boys not up to your standard of replicas, put these stripes and signwriting on my car temporarily for the Datsun Nationals last year just for some fun. Rip off of a famous racing Nissan in Australia. Any clues?

[Doehring]

Hi Z-rallye-freaks,
having spent a week on rainy Mallorca island I'm positively surprised how the discussion went on. Alan is right, it's a pity that our american friends are in a different world when talking about rallying or works or semi-works sportsZcars. So it's within us antipodes (Australia/NZ and Europe) to find out and to publish to our american friends how these cars performed in Kenia, at the Bandama, in Australia, Maroc, Greece, Portugal , Monte Carlo, in GB, Canada or anywhere else in the wide world, what their technical highlights and who the drivers were. I myself built up a rallyeZ to my personal needs and possibilities based on the FIVA standards and the original group 3 and group 4 homologation. Unfortunately I crashed the car and at the moment I built up an interim solution just to have something to compete with on a regional level, having my wife as navigator (which makes weekend life easier). My daily driver is a 300 ZXturbo and I also have a nice 280 ZX, very original with one main exeption, it has a catalytic converter now to meet the government and tax regulations here in Germany.

[HS30-H]

Hi all,

This is turning into a really entertaining and informative thread isn't it? Its a bit of archaeology, and much more interesting than all those "How fast will my Z go if.....?" threads isn't it!?

Rodd, I like your paint job - and your car looks nice and "simple". Really pure and nicely in period feel. Nice one.

Doehring, Sorry to hear that it rained for your holiday. Two weeks ago I was in Italy and it POURED down with rain every day. There were really bad storms over the whole central European area, and I got really wet. Best if you stay at home and stay tuned to this thread - its looking quite good.

Fred, sounds like you are on an exciting mission to see what claims to be the '76 Le Mans car this weekend. I think that you might like to get a good look at as many details as possible, but particularly these;
CHASSIS NUMBER ( is it an RS30 or an RLS30, or is it an HS30 or HLS30? ). As I mentioned before, "6466" was definitely an RLS30 chassis number - a Left-Hand-Drive European-Spec. "260Z". Strangely, the pictures of the '75 Le Mans car in period show a RHD car with the back end ( tail lamps and back panel / trim ) from a "240Z". This makes me think that it was not the same chassis as the Works Rally car chassis that the number "6466" was originally placed on. Of course, you are going to see what claims to be the '76 Le Mans car - which I guess does not necessarily have to be the same car as the '75 Le Mans car - but in my personal opinion I think they used the '75 car in '76 too.

ENGINE - this does not prove anything, but as far as I am aware the original engine on "6466" was an "LY" Crossflow, and possibly on the Nissan "ECGI" injection system. I believe that when the car passed into the hands of privateer rally driver Chris Sclater he used it with both the original engine and then a more normal L-26 bored up to 2.8 or 2.9 and with 50mm Mikuni carbs. It will be interesting to see what engine the car has now.

BODY - again, they would have modified the car for Le Mans - so this does not necessarily mean anything, but ALL of the Works Rally Zs had a "Flat Floor" at the rear. The spare-wheel well was removed and a ribbed panel was fitted flush with the surrounding floor. This enabled a much larger fuel tank to be used - initially a 100 Litre tank ( just like the PS30-SB tank ) and then a 110 litre tank. Later still, I believe a 120 Litre tank was also used. These big tanks and their flat floor are one of the things that quickly identifies Works competition Z cars.

It would be also interesting to look for evidence of Rally jacking point mountings, Sump Guard mountings, and evidence of the "Works" type roll cage - with two vertical bars from the roof hoop down to the floor. These were bolted, not welded into the car. However, I would have thought that the Le Mans regulations would have forced them to modify this.
Look for evidence of the fuel-filler in a cutout on the rear hatch, with a "Monza" style flip-down filler cap in a kind of box. The original fuel filler on "6466" was this type - unlike the earlier Works 240Z Rally cars which used the original location. They also changed the venting for the fuel tank, by putting vents in the acrylic glass of the quarter window. All the plastic windows on the Works cars were stamped with a small "NISSAN" logo on the interior side.

Apart from that, check just about EVERYTHING else!!!
The current owner might believe it to be the ex-"6466" body, or he might not. The car might have been re-shelled after the accident in '76, and in fact the '75 Le Mans car might not have actually been "6466" at all ( but I believe it WAS an ex-Works Rally 240Z, rather than a 260Z ).

This is like a Chinese puzzle, but it is fascinating....................

Sorry for the usual long-winded post.
HS30-H.

[HS30-H]

Fred!

Don't worry too much about checking out that car at the "Le Mans Revival" event on Saturday. When I saw the photos that you posted ( the silver car ) I realised that I had seen this car before. It was featured in a two page article in the December 1998 issue of NOSTALGIC HERO in Japan.
In the article, the owner ( Mr Pierre Bourgoin ) describes it as a genuine "Competition Model" - but he does not say that the car was actually the one ( or ones? ) that ran at Le Mans in '75 and '76.
What he says is that the car used to belong to Mr Andre Haller, the entrant and owner of the '75 and '76 Le Mans entries, and was the "sister car" to the one that crashed at Le Mans in '76 - sadly killing Mr Haller. He says that his car ( chassis number HLS30-39710 ) is a 1971 model car - one of two that were imported to Germany in 1972, and then brought to France presumably by Mr Haller.
So, in this article he is not claiming that his car actually competed at Le Mans - but he IS saying that it is a "Competition Model".
This seems to be a rather fanciful claim, as the only "Competition Model" S30 cars that were brought to Europe in the early 1970s were the factory "Works" Rally cars. These cars were based on special bodyshells that incorporated many design features and details from the PS30-SB ( 432-R ) and were in fact a kind of hybrid 432-R with an L-series engine and the special parts for Rallying. The Works circuit-race Z cars in Japan were initially based on the 432-R ( with the S20 engine ) and within a year they had partially switched to the the L-series engined cars, but still using many details from the PS30-SB bodyshells. These cars were called "240ZR" by the factory, and later developed into the Group 4, 5 & 6 racers with the full aerodynamic kit and the "LY" Crossflow engine on injection.
I don't know what Mr Bourgoin thinks makes his car a "Competition Model" - but perhaps he is under the impression that the car is something that it is not. As far as I can see from the article and the photos, the car does not seem to use any parts that would identify themselves as "Works" competition parts - let alone have the special body of an ex-Works Rally car or factory circuit race car. It even seems to have the normal S30-type fuel tank ( and none of the Works competition cars were fitted with those ). It does have Mikuni carburettors - but then so do many cars. These were available from many many sources - and Sanyo even offered a kit to fit them on the car when it was launched in 1969.
Perhaps Fred you should ask Mr Bourgoin what the history of his car is, so that you can hear it from him in person. If you have heard that this car is one of the cars that ran at Le Mans, and it is just hearsay, then all well and good. However, if Mr Bourgoin is claiming that his car IS one of those cars - then he needs to prove it. It seems to me that anyone doing this would need to make sure that he knew ALL about the factory race cars and the parts that they used, otherwise he would come unstuck very quickly. Even calling your car a "Competition Model" needs qualification, if the person saying it is inferring that it is some kind of official factory-built or sanctioned model..................
We must all be careful of people who might be interested in talking up the history of their car in order to make it worth more money, or fooling people who don't know any better.We should share information to make us better armed to fight against bogus claims and fancy stories.
Here is a scan of the article about the car;

All the best,
HS30-H

[HS30-H]

and here's the other page:

HS30-H

[Caen Fred]

It's nice to have you around, this is very educative! I will talk to the guy and report his word in the most honest way I can. We will find out. He is keeping is car anyway so I don't think that he is after money and want to add value to a fake, at least not deliberately. Still, it’s a nice car and I will have a nice time watching her as see will dance around on Le Vigeant race track. It’s a too rare occasion to see a mean Z around here…
Looks like we started a planetary enquire here, let’s find out and register all the Famous Z cars, and maybe you could start to put down a nice listing of the famous Z you know, where they are, who they belong to, history past and so on…
…what do you think; I hope it wouldn’t create a speculation war on our beloved cars.

Fred

[Doehring]

Hi friends,

as far as I know the Le Mans car that Hans Schuller, the Safari Co-driver of Hermann and Safari winner, brought to Le Mans in 1975 was originally an Ex-Safari car. They became 23rd in the general classement and 1st in the class up to 2.5 litres.

Rolf

[HS30-H]

Hello Doehring,

We are probably getting nearer the truth now, and it seems that we are uncovering a little bit of creative resourcefulness on the behalf of the '75 Le Mans entrant ( commonly known as "cheating"! ). The car at Le Mans in '75 was wearing a Japanese registration plate with the numbers "6466" which was originally on a LHD 260Z Works Rally car that never competed in the Safari Rally. If the car was in fact an ex-Works Safari Rally 240Z, then the "6466" number must have been a switch.......
In my experience, if somebody is talking about cars that have some Works competition rally history then they almost invariably say that it is "ex Safari". If you added up all the cars that were "ex Safari" it would probably come to a couple of hundred!
I think that this happens because the Safari Rally was one of the Z car's most successful events. They won outright twice with the Z, and that tends to get remembered better than a third on the Monte Carlo or even a win on the Welsh Rally................
I think it seems to be becoming clear that the Japanese registration plate that the car was wearing at the '75 Le Mans should not have actually been on it. The car that entered Le Mans in '75 may well have been an ex-Works Safari Rally 240Z that Hans Schuller sourced from the Works rally team, but they obviously needed to have some kind of identity switch because of homologation and eligibility rules. I think this must be why they gave it the Japanese registration number ( and presumably some paperwork to back up the identity was shown to the ACO ).
If that '75 Le Mans car was indeed an ex-Safari Rally car ( it was certainly not one of the two that won the event, as they are both still extant and belong to Nissan in Japan ) then it would have led a very interesting and varied life! That would be another statistic for the record books; Safari Rally AND Le Mans history!
All the best,
HS30-H

[Doehring]

Hi ev'rybody,
let's go on to the essentials of datsuns works engagements to fill the white spots on the map one by one.
As far as my sources are correct Datsun engaged itself with Z cars OUTSIDE AFRICA 1st times with 4 Group 3 240Zs in Sept. 1970 in GB (RAC-Rallye). Drivers were Rauno AAltonen, Tony Fall, Edgar Herrmann and John Bloxham. A 5th Z was for services. All 4 cars had problems because of differential overheating. Only Aaltonen finished, having 3 best results on special stages in between.
In 1971 a Z finished in 5th position at Rallye Monte Carlo. Also in 1971 Tony Fall won the Welch-Rallye. In 1972 Aaltonen finished 3rd in Monte Carlo. Also in 1972 Shekar Mehta became 6th at the greece Akropolis Rallye and Tony fall finished 4th in Portugal. In 1973 Aaaltonen was long time in 2nd pos. at the Monte Carlo until a fuel line broke. Also in 1973 some works drivers startet as privateers. So Mehta damaged a Z in Maroc and Hans Schuller, Herrmanns Co-driver in Africa, started in Germany. The licence plate of this car was SU 6470. The portuguise importer prepared 2 Zs (drivers nn) and in NORTH AMERICA at the "Press on regardless -Rallye" the couple Smiska finished 2nd in '72 and 3rd in '73.
The 260Z was no big success . In '74 a 260Z finished 5th in Portugal. In '75 Schuller was engaged in Le Mans.

AFRICA:
In 1971 Datsun prepared 4 Zs for the East African Safari. The engines for Africa did not base on the Z 432 but on the L24 with about 210 HP, 200 km/h top speed with a long 4th gear (4,625:1). Totla weight was 1250 kg. Herrmann/Schuller startet with car #11, #12 was driven by Aaltonen/Easter,#31 by Mehta/Doughty and the 4th Z was run by Jack Simonian. Herrmann finished 1st in front of Mehta. Aaltonen became 7th. In '72 3 Zs started (Aaltonen/Fall, Mehta/Doughty and Herrmann/Schuller). Herrmann finished in 5th, Aaltonen in 6th and Mehta in 10th position.
In 1973 the 240Z became a 2,5 Litre, 240HP, 205 km/. 89 teams started, only 19 finished that 5000 km event. Mehta was the winner over all. In 1974 Datsun engaged 3 260Z in East Africa. They finished 5th and 6th with Kallstrom/Bilstram and Ramtulla /Jivani (3rd team n.n.) Only 16 of 99 teams finished that tough 5100 km event.

How many Zs were engaged as "mules" (training cars) or for services I don't know Perhaps anybody knows the id-#s of the works cars so that we can trace their lives.

Rolf

[EricB]

Hey Rodd, Alan, and Guus, (and anyone else?)

Just so you guys know there is some interest from the states as regards this thread - I can think of at least two of us for sure... then again I am a displaced French citizen and my friend is of Dutch decent - so maybe we are just another bunch of Euros too then, eh?

If we haven't contributed it is probably because we are probably not quite as versed on the matter as you all...

-e

[EricB]

Evidemment je souhaite aussi le bonjour a Fred de La Rochelle (tres jolie ville d'ailleurs). Und also einen "Halo" für Herr Doehring (ich wahr in München gebohren aber mein Deutsch ist ein bissien schlecht - enschuligung.)

-e

[Z-point]

Originally posted by EricB
Hey Rodd, Alan, and Guus, (and anyone else?)

Just so you guys know there is some interest from the states as regards this thread - I can think of at least two of us for sure... then again I am a displaced French citizen and my friend is of Dutch decent - so maybe we are just another bunch of Euros too then, eh?

If we haven't contributed it is probably because we are probably not quite as versed on the matter as you all...

-e

EricB,

I think you got it wrong. You are not the only two who are watching.
Have a look at this link http://www.240z.org/forums/forumdisp...?s=&forumid=22
It shows this thread has 928 hits!!



Guus
Z-point

[sennavsprost]

I wish that I could contribute to this thread as well, but I think I'll just sit back and watch this one... by the way Im the Dutch jerk Eric was reffering to.

[HS30-H]

Thanks for the kind words from EricB & sennavsprost - its nice to know that its not just a few demented idiots like me who find this interesting.

Doehring, you have collected a fair bit of data about those Works rally cars. However, I keep hearing about more and more little events and testing that we never heard about. Sometimes the Works team would ship cars back to Japan after a few events and refurbish them, after which they would be brought back to Europe, Africa or Australia to act as practice cars / chase cars, or as entries for local drivers. As far as I am aware, Nissan have never released to the general public any information regarding the chassis numbers of the Works rally cars. The local team base organisers ( such as Old Woking Service Station in the UK, and D.T.Dobie in Kenya ) would obviously know which chassis numbers they had at any particular time, but I should think that only Nissan's Competition Department staff themselves would have all the data about which chassis did which event.

There is a lot of misleading information in the English-language books that cover the subject of Nissan's competition history. We cannot trust all that we read, as it usually has not come from the horse's mouth. I would have thought that there is an opportunity for the definitive book on the S30 type Z race history to be written, but any volunteer would have to do a hell of a lot of research!

By the way Doehring, did I make it seem as though I thought that some of the Works rally cars used the S20 engine in my previous post? Sorry about that if I did - but certainly the Works rally cars only ever used the L-series sixes ( with the later ones using the "LY" Crossflow version ). What I was talking about was the similarity of the Z432-R ( PS30-SB ) bodyshell to the shell construction of the Works rally cars. That is something that few people realise or comment on.

Here is an "on-line" present for Guus...........

[HS30-H]

Hey sennavsprost!
your avatar is going to start some new threads if you are not careful! Did you know that the no.15 car still exists? It's part of the Harada Collection at the Kawaguchiko Motor Museum in Japan, and they sometimes bring it out for demonstration runs. That S20 engine just screams.............

Here's another little scan on the thread of our Works rally car discussion. This pic. shows a Works car at Nissan's rally test course in Japan. They did a fair bit of simulation out there before they sent the cars out of Japan for the rallies..........

[HS30-H]

At the risk of starting a whole new thread, here is a picture of what I am REALLY interested in.
This is a picture of Works driver Kenji Tohira at the 1971 Japan Grand Prix in the GT race ( in the GT-2 class ) in a Works ( SCCN ) HS30 "Fairlady Z".
Just in case you heard that the Z was not very successful in domestic races.....................

[Caen Fred]

Oh please, Uncle Alan tell me one more story...
I was browsing yesterday night on the Jap web-ring and I realised that every country has it's own vision of the Z.
Interesting to see all those G-nosed cars and the fat wheeled Z, I could kill for those!!! That made me think (Ouch, not used to that!) is there any notorious Japanese Z goddess, like Big Sam on UK, or the BRE, Newman’s… ?
You’re right about the race book, maybe we could start with a new Historical page on this site, what do you think moderator man ?
Anybody up to the task ?
Fred

[Caen Fred]

Where is that, what is it ?????

[Doehring]

Howdy Mike,
you started that thread and I think your intention was to find out who is rallying today with our "elderly ladies" and what our experiences and technical hints are. I#m interested in that ,too.
Now the thread changed a bit and at the moment some of us are becoming experts that work out Datsun's works rallying history step by step. Together we are strong, I hope. So Mike, let me propose to split the thread, one for exchange of experiences, one, where the experts can work on history. What do you think and how is this accepted by the "expertgroup" ?

EricB and Sennavsprost
welcome to the "club of experts". Perhaps you can find out some informations on the "american" Zs of the early 70s in the world
rallye championship, for instance on the Smiska's car in the '72 and '73 "Press on Regardless". There must have been another 240Z within the first top 5 in '71. Can you get pictures ?

Hi Alan, Fred , Sean , Guus and friends from "down under"
we will have a longe weekend now and I will try to structure the information that I can find in my rallying books from the seventies
(pictures, result lists, stories) , in my Z book collection and in my collection of articles on Z rallye cars. I hope to find a scanner so that I can copy the photos for you. Perhaps together we can fill the gaps in information. Alan is right, some informations are confusing and sometimes I have the feeling that Datsun used the same licence plate for different cars. Maybe I can also find Hans Schuller. I heared he lives in Germany again. He should know a lot. The german Z club already contacted Graf Goertz, the Z designer, who became a member to the club.

Guus, yesterday I first times saw the 1:18 model #5. Was it Exoto or Kyoshi ? Whatever it is, it is very detailed, it is great, it is a must

[Caen Fred]

Gutten täg

That's as far as my German go... my English is poor and rusty, my German is disloved.

You are not far from the truth, it was an ice race at Serres-Chevallier, in 1973, well done!

Fred

[Doehring]

Bonjour Fred,
merci pour la medaille d'or. The car seems to be one of those that have done the Monte Carlo before, the licence plate is a Japanese one and in the middle of the fron window you can see that stripe from the additional window heating that the works cars had. Interesting to see a Z in the sandwich of 2 Renault Alpine at an Ice event.

Thanks for the picture !

Rolf

[EricB]

Dear Alan, Cher Fred,

When I was in Japan last (last week of April) I did pick up a new Fairlady book which covers of course the whole development of the street car and its various clay model iterations prior to finding the production version (of interest to me since I am to be an automobile designer) but also a pretty thorough section on competition covering both Japanese and American circuit racing and the Rally effort over the rest of the world. It IS in Japanese and off the top of my head I can't remember the author's name (in order to check if some of you already have this book in which case it would be a moot point)

I can however describe the appearance of its cover - perhaps this might ring some bells with someone? Hard bound book with a white dust cover on which there is a large "Z" - the subtitle being as I recall "The Fairlady Story" and at the bottom next to the author's name there's a side view illustration of one of the BRE Z cars.


On a different topic, the latest issue of NosHero is KICKASS - when you see the cover you will buy it instantly. There's an old orange race 432 that is apparently built to the hilt. In the book I've mentionned above this same car is pictured there too. I can scan & upload if interested.

-e

[EricB]

Doehring: that model yesterday was the Kyosho 1:18 12900yen in Japan - Here stateside I've seen them for between $35 and $75.

To all: Should we have a web space created and upload all of our scanned images there and use that to create our history book? I think I can come up with some good ones and I have existing web space somewhere else where I could store my images for the time being - just need the time to scan them in I guess....

-e

[Z-point]

Originally posted by EricB
Doehring: that model yesterday was the Kyosho 1:18 12900yen in Japan - Here stateside I've seen them for between $35 and $75.

-e

Hi guys,

speaking about Kyosho's here's a place made from the Kyosho brochure. There you can find all the inns and outs.



http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/Z43218.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240Z18.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240ZG18.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240Zrally18.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240Z43.jpg

Guus
Z-point

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Doehring
Howdy Mike,
you started that thread and I think your intention was to find out who is rallying today with our "elderly ladies" and what our experiences and technical hints are. I#m interested in that ,too.
Now the thread changed a bit and at the moment some of us are becoming experts that work out Datsun's works rallying history step by step. Together we are strong, I hope. So Mike, let me propose to split the thread, one for exchange of experiences, one, where the experts can work on history. What do you think and how is this accepted by the "expertgroup" ?

A new thread is perfect, but I suggest we take all our post with us!

Guus
Z-point

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Doehring
Hi ev'rybody,
let's go on to the essentials of datsuns works engagements to fill the white spots on the map one by one.
As far as my sources are correct Datsun engaged itself with Z cars OUTSIDE AFRICA 1st times with 4 Group 3 240Zs in Sept. 1970 in GB (RAC-Rallye). Drivers were Rauno AAltonen, Tony Fall, Edgar Herrmann and John Bloxham. A 5th Z was for services. All 4 cars had problems because of differential overheating. Only Aaltonen finished, having 3 best results on special stages in between.
In 1971 a Z finished in 5th position at Rallye Monte Carlo. Also in 1971 Tony Fall won the Welch-Rallye. In 1972 Aaltonen finished 3rd in Monte Carlo. Also in 1972 Shekar Mehta became 6th at the greece Akropolis Rallye and Tony fall finished 4th in Portugal. In 1973 Aaaltonen was long time in 2nd pos. at the Monte Carlo until a fuel line broke. Also in 1973 some works drivers startet as privateers. So Mehta damaged a Z in Maroc and Hans Schuller, Herrmanns Co-driver in Africa, started in Germany. The licence plate of this car was SU 6470. The portuguise importer prepared 2 Zs (drivers nn) and in NORTH AMERICA at the "Press on regardless -Rallye" the couple Smiska finished 2nd in '72 and 3rd in '73.
The 260Z was no big success . In '74 a 260Z finished 5th in Portugal. In '75 Schuller was engaged in Le Mans.

AFRICA:
In 1971 Datsun prepared 4 Zs for the East African Safari. The engines for Africa did not base on the Z 432 but on the L24 with about 210 HP, 200 km/h top speed with a long 4th gear (4,625:1). Totla weight was 1250 kg. Herrmann/Schuller startet with car #11, #12 was driven by Aaltonen/Easter,#31 by Mehta/Doughty and the 4th Z was run by Jack Simonian. Herrmann finished 1st in front of Mehta. Aaltonen became 7th. In '72 3 Zs started (Aaltonen/Fall, Mehta/Doughty and Herrmann/Schuller). Herrmann finished in 5th, Aaltonen in 6th and Mehta in 10th position.
In 1973 the 240Z became a 2,5 Litre, 240HP, 205 km/. 89 teams started, only 19 finished that 5000 km event. Mehta was the winner over all. In 1974 Datsun engaged 3 260Z in East Africa. They finished 5th and 6th with Kallstrom/Bilstram and Ramtulla /Jivani (3rd team n.n.) Only 16 of 99 teams finished that tough 5100 km event.

How many Zs were engaged as "mules" (training cars) or for services I don't know Perhaps anybody knows the id-#s of the works cars so that we can trace their lives.

Rolf

Way way back I started to make a webpage as a contribute to our beloved Z cars
Now it’s a matter to finish it. Let’s go for it!

http://home-1.tiscali.nl/~zzxnl/victory_lane.htm

Guus
Z-point

[Mike]

Originally posted by Doehring
Howdy Mike,
you started that thread and I think your intention was to find out who is rallying today with our "elderly ladies" and what our experiences and technical hints are. I#m interested in that ,too.
Now the thread changed a bit and at the moment some of us are becoming experts that work out Datsun's works rallying history step by step. Together we are strong, I hope. So Mike, let me propose to split the thread, one for exchange of experiences, one, where the experts can work on history. What do you think and how is this accepted by the "expertgroup" ?

Hi Doehring,

I'm up for anything...... I haven't been a part of this thread in quite a long time and I come back to find just TONS of information about rally racing.

Yes, I am interested in getting started and trying to determine where I can make my first step into this type of racing.

All of this content is perfectly OK and I am learning a lot from it, so, please don't stop doing what you are doing. This forum was set up for the free exchange of information, so, please use it!!

-- Mike

[Doehring]

Guus,

you started a good overview on your z-point page "victory lane".
I took that as the basis, checked it (sometimes you jumped a line for instance) and added all informations I could find on Zs in world rallye championship ( and some oteher) events between 1970 and 1976. Next week I'm out of my bureau and I will present my results to you all a little bit later. There will still be same white spots on the map that we can shurely fill together.

Rolf

[norcal z]

Hi everyone -

I haven't checked this forum out in quite a long time, but went racing this past weekeng and got the "bug" back. So I thought I'd check out the racing forum here, and this was the first thread I looked at.

All I can say is, "WOW"! This is great. Sorry, but I can't offer anything to the discussion, but hearing about it from all of you is very interesting. I hope you will continue it here.

Perhaps it is because these cars primarily raced in series on the European and African continents, and media coverage of the events back then was almost non-existent as compared to today's events, that most of us here do not know more about them. The Indy and NASCAR have mostly been featured in the media here, and so that's what we've grown up with (well, until Speedvision, I guess!).

gary

[Caen Fred]

debriefing time!

I saw the Le Mans car!
Ok, after investigation, it is NOT the car that raced, I looked at all the "Alan pedigree spots" and most of them didn't match!!!
The owner then told us that it was a car that was imported from Japan by the owner of the Le Mans car????
It is still one of the best racing Z around here, fast, and well maintened.
Too bad that peoples have to brag when they already have products that stand alone
I had a good time, and I still have to sort out a few things on the history of that car, but I have plenty of time! I belong to the club ZEN de France after all.

Fred

[EricB]

Fred,

Did you take any pictures for the rest of us?

-e

[Caen Fred]

go to the race section of the photo album...

Thats the car, no race shots, too wet for my camera...

[Doehring]

Howdy friends,
having been sick at home for some days I spent my time studying books, magazines, videos and photos on 240 Z/ 260 Z in World Championship Rallies ( + some Non-World-Championship events).
Thanks to Guus who's "V ictory lane" is a very good starting point.
the order to read the following is: Event, Country, Driver/Co-Driver Starting#, Licence Plate #, Ident#, Result. Enjoy and perhaps you can answer the questionmarks!

1970 1st official works engagement in Torbay Rallye (GB) at Okt.

31st Tony Fall/Gerraint Phillips Starting# unknown, TKS 33 SA ?, ?, Result ?
RAC-Rallye (GB) Rauno Aaltonen/Paul Easter, 18, TKS 33 SA 695,
HS 30 0000 25, 7th
Tony Fall/Gerraint Phillips ?, ?, ?,?
Edgar Herrmann/Hans Schuller, ?, TKS 33 SA 694, HS30 0000 24, ?
John Bloxham/Norman Salt, ?, TKS 33 SA 696, HS30 0000 26, ?
There was another high speed tender car


1971 (Datsun published no more Ident ## !)
40th Rallye Monte Carlo (MC) R. Aaltonen/P. Easter, 62, TKS 33 SA 985, 5th
T. Fall/Mike Wood, 70, ...... 985, 10th There were 2 more supporting cars in the rallye, one co-driver was van Bergen. One of these cars was TKS 33 SA 987 (ex ....694)

19th East African Safari E.Herrmann/H.Schuller, 11, TKS 33 SA 1223, 1st Shekar Mehta/Mike Doughty, 31, ....1224, 2nd R.Aaltonen/P.Easter, 12, ..... 1226, 7th
Jack Simonian/Bob Garrish, ?, ..... 1227, ?
TKS 33 SA 1225 was a spare car at that event, ..... 1228 was High speed tender car.

(Welch Rallye (GB)) T.Fall/ ?, 3, TKS 33 SA 696, 1st
(Scottish Rallye (GB)), T. Fall/ ?, 4, TKS 33 SA 696, retired,

RAC-Rallye (GB) E. Herrmann/H. Schuller, 5, TKS 33 SA 3646, 17th
S.Mehta/Lofty Drews, ?, .... SA 696, 19th
R. Aaltonen/ ? , ?, ?, retired
T. Fall/ ? , ?, ?, retired

1972

41st Rallye Monte Carlo (MC), R.Aaltonen/Jean Todt, 5, TKS 33 SA 4150, 3rd
T.Fall/M.Wood, 20, .....4151, retired

20th East African Safari, E.Herrmann/H.Schuller, 10, ? , 5th
R.Aaltonen/T.Fall, 5, TKS 33 SA 4538, 6th
S.Mehta/M.Doughty, 8, ?, 10th
Ove Andersson/M. Davenport, 7, ?, ?,

20th Acropolis Rallye (Greece),S.Mehta/P.Easter, ?, ?, 6th

TAP-Rallye (Portugal), T.Fall/ ?, ?, ?, 4th
Chris Sclater/ ?,?,?,?
(7th Southern Cross(Australia)) R. Aaltonen/ Halloran, ?, TKS 33 SA 8075, 2nd

(Scottish Rallye (GB)), S. Mehta/ ?, ?,?,retired
Roy Fidler/Barry Hughes, 13, KEJ 1, ?
T.Fall/M. Wood, 4, TKS 33 SA 696, 7th

(Montana Rallye (Portugal)), Antonio Carlos/ ?, ?, ?, 1st

(Kenia 2000) S.Mehta/L.Drews, ?, ?, 1st

RAC-Rallye (GB), T.Fall/M.Wood, 18, TKS 33 SA 3640 , 18th
R.Aaltonen/P.Easter, 6, ?, 11th
R. Fidler/B.Hughes, 34 ?, ?
S.Mehta/Martin Holmes,26, ?,?

Press on Regardless (Michigan,USA) Jons/ Beckman, ?, ?, 2nd

(Rallye of Camelias (Portugal)) Antonio Carlos de Olivera/ ?, ?, GA-83-34, 1st

Olympic Rallye (Germany) ?/?, ?, VEC-MA 65, ?

(24 H Le Mans(F)) Martin Birrane/ ?, 47, ?, not qualified


I will go on 1973 -1981 later

Rolf

[Doehring]

Let me go on with 1973:

42nd Rallye Monte Carlo, MC, R.Aaltonen/P. Easter, 10, TKS 33 SA 8512 , 18th
T. Fall/M. Wood, 17, TKS 33 SA 8514, 9th

21st East African Safari, S.Mehta/L.Drews, 1, TKS 33 SA 7924, 1st
E.Herrmann/H.Schuller, 11, ? , ?
R.Aaltonen/P.Easter, 6, TKS 33 SA ?391, ?

(Tranzania 1000) ? / ? , ?, ?, 1st

Maroc Rallye (Maroc) S. Mehta/G. Phillips, %, TKS 33 SA 7922, Totalled after a flat out 300 meters flight into the stony desert
? / ? , 44 ?, ?

(Scottish Rallye (GB)), S. Mehta/ ? , ? ,? , ? (Crashed?)

RAC Rallye (GB), Harry Kallstrom/ Claes Bilstram, 5, TKS 33 SU 4079, 14th
T.Fall/M. Wood, 17, TKS 33 SU 3444, retired
Chris Sclater/Martin Holmes, 22, ?, ?,
Kevin Vidan/Peter Rushforth, ?, ?, 21st

Press on Regardless (USA), Smiskol/ Smiskol, ?, BD 3358, 3rd

(southern Cross(Australia)), ?/?, ?,?, 8th

1974:

22nd East African Safari, H.Kallstrom/C.Bilstram, 14, TKS 33 SU 6468 (260Z) 4th
Zully Remtulla/ Givani, ?, ?, (260Z), 5th

TAP Rallye (Portugal), H.Kallstrom/C.Bilstram, 4, TKS 33 SU 6466 (260Z), 5th

Rideau Lakes Rallye (Canada), Burkhard Skowrennek/ Woodlands, 117, PDH 812 (240Z), 6th
Smiskol/Smiskol, ?, ?, (260Z), 8th

RAC Rallye (GB), Cahal Curley/ ?, 25, TKS 33 SU 6466 (260Z), ?

(Tranzania 1000) ?/?, ?,?, 2nd

Maroc ? / ?, ?, ?, 6th

(Hugenotten Rallye (Germany)), H.Schuller/G.Weitmann, 4, "Tuner Nippon Speed Car (see Le Mans Car), (260Z), 4th

Bandama Rallye(Ivory Coast), ?/?, 2, ?, ?
? /?, 6, ?, (260Z), 5th
? /?, 17, ?, ?

1975:

TAP Rallye (Portugal) Cortez/ Gomez, ?, ex TKS 33 SU 6470, (260Z), 4th
Figueredo/ Baraton, ?, ?, (240Z), 6th
Mepre/ Magelhas, ?, ? (240Z), 10th

(24H Le Mans, (France)), Schuller, Haller, Maechler, 72, TKS 33 SU 6466 (240Z (at least the engine)), "Tuned by Nippon Speed Car") , 26th over all, 1st in class

(24H Spa-Francorchamps (Belgium)),Delbar/Rubens/Miroux, 17, ?, 260 Z 2+2 !!!, ?

RAC Rallye (GB), Kevin Vidan/Peter Valentine ?, LPE 66 P, ?, ?

1976:

(Firestone Rallye (Spain)), K. Videan/ P.Valentine, ?, LPE 66 P, 6th

24th East African Safari, H.Schuller/Dieter Steinmann, 16, TKS 33 SU 6470, (260Z),"Nippon Speed Car", ?

(24H Le Mans (F)) Haller/Buchet/Favresse, 73, ?, (260Z) Totalled

1981:

(Jänner Rallye (Austria)), S.Mehta/Yvonne Mehta, ?, ?, ?; (240Z), 12th. In this event AUDI presented 1st times the works Quattro, the winner of theis event, starting a new aera, the 4wd

Rolf-K. Doehring

[Doehring]

Friends,
I got the information that a very few years ago (end of 90s ?) a 240 Z finished 2nd at a remake of the famous London-Mexico Worldcup Rallye. Winner was - as at the original event - Hannu Mikkola in his Ford Escort. I heard the 240 Z was Australien. There must have been another 240 Z. Who has informations an pictures on the car and /or the event?
Rolf

[HS30-H]

Hi Doehring,

You have really been data-crunching haven't you!?

Its going to take a while to wade through it all, but I think I can fill in a couple of gaps for you. I shall have to have a think of how to format it, though - otherwise the list will get longer and longer by repeating itself ( how many pages are we limited to here? ).

That Australian Z entry must surely have been Mr Ross Dunkerton? Our correspondents in Australia must surely be able to confirm this. He is a well-known face among the rallying Datto fans down under, and has a lot of successes under his belt.

Well done for all that data..............

Alan.

[Doehring]

Hi Alan and all other friends,
when I have a little more time I will repeat the data in an Excel-Matrix and send this to everybody who is interested. I don't know if I can attach an Excel-Matrix to this thread, Mike ? You can than easily fill the gaps. I'm not used to use Word. Perhaps that's easier. I will ask a secretary.
Dunkerton is a name I read already. Friends from "down under", can you find out more about the car and the event, perhaps with some pics? Would be great to see how good a Z performs still today in the toughest events.
Rolf

[EricB]

Doering,

I have already put your data up until 1972 in an Excel format so there's no need to repeat the process.... Shall I mail it to you?

-e

[Doehring]

Hi EricB,
thank you very much for the Excel sheet. Would you be so nice to add the figures from 1973-1981 that I collected in my 2nd part of the history ? That would be great. Please let the writing-rights (correct english?) open so that we can add informations where I left questionmarks ? Alan (HS30-H) already mentioned that he can fill some open positions.
Rolf

[Caen Fred]

Nicy, nicy...

It's alive!!!!

Well done boys, so this is getting somewhere now, I am interested by the sheet.
I have notice in the "for sale" from one of our papers a 240z prepared for dirt rallying (I don't even want to think what it should look like!!!) but that mean that a few are still rallying today. Beside Kevin Bristow any well known rallying Z that we could support and get exited over?

[Doehring]

Good morning CaenFred,
how is La Rochelle today? I have been there some time ago while sailing to Lissabon. There were the F1 Cat- and Trimarans in the harbour. Great ! La Rochelle is a wonderful place. Friends, don't miss it if you're going to France.
Fred, thank you for the pics from the Le Mans Z. You mentioned Kevin 's Z. I hope our Australien friends can find out more about the Dunkerton car Alan mentioned, must be a great marathon car.
Did you see mine in sportZmagazine. That was a good on, too. Shurely Guus will perform well when he starts the action
I'm very hopeful that we can fill the ??? in my table all together when EricB has sent the Excel matrix to you, me and all other interested Z rallyefans.
Rolf

[Z-point]

Good morning CaenFred,
Did you see mine in sportZmagazine. That was a good on, too. Shurely Guus will perform well when he starts the action
Rolf

Hi Rolf,

How did you become so famous? Did you volunteered or what. I do not have a membership but thinking about it, it’s rather expensive.

Guus
Z-point

www.z-point.nl/victory_lane.htm

[Doehring]

Guus,
at first: Thanks for your victory lane. As you know I used it to start my search on registering the works cars rallye events. Now I'm already anxiously waiting for EricB's Excel matrix so that we all together can try to complete the history.
Concerning sportZmagazine I was an early subscriber but in the beginning there were some difficulties for the german post that was not able to read automatically my german adress that was printed on the envelop in the american order. So I had for a long time a very friendly conversation with sportZmagazine. That's how I got in contact with the team there and the busy editor David. I like it and I recommand it. It's a pity that it is quite expensive for us here in EUROland, perhaps the exchange rate will turn to our advantage one day. I wanted to insert an image here cutaway of the works Safari car), but I can't find out how to do it. IMG says "enter a text for formating", but nothing about the
way to put in the picture. Can you or someone explain me how to do it right?
Rolf

[Caen Fred]

To put a pict online you have to upload-it to a web-folder of your choice, with an ftp program like "cute ftp" or "leechftp".
Then you have to link your photo by typing it'se exact adress
"ex.http://www.xxxxxxxx.com/xxxxx.jpg"
and voilà!
It's really a lot easyer that it sound.
PS : It's really sunny here, why don't you come for a quick swim?

[EricB]

Rolf,

I just sent you the Excel spreadsheet in 97/98 format - if it does not open correctly let me know and I will try a different format. I just read your post above about asking me to add the 73-81 data... let me see if i can do that right now..... if it works out i will send you a newer spreadsheet with all the info

-e

[Z-point]

Hi Guys,

I’ve added the years '95 up till '02 to my page. Including links to the rally organisers.
We have to keep up, not only with history!

Guus
Z-point


www.z-point.nl/victory_lane.htm

[Z-point]

Hi guys,

Look what I found at eBay http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=1836462986

I already have this one so I leave it up to you!! Good Luck with bidding.

Guus

This is a 1973 vintage race poster advertising the MONTE CARLO RALLY and the legendary performance of the Datsun 240Z.
This poster is quite large measuring 28 1/2" by 40 1/2".
It is in fair condition with tack holes in each corner, wrinkling along the edges and a small strip of paper is missing at the top. The top left corner has a tear and the paper was folded back in the picture and the bottom right corner has been stained.


www.z-point.nl/victory_lane.htm

[Z-point]

Hi guys,

Here you see two maps full of newsflashes from the past…As soon as I have my new scanner, I’m going to put something’s on the net.
But it will be a lot of work to go thru it. As you can see!


Guus
Z-point


www.z-point.nl/victory_lane.htm [/QUOTE]

[Mike]

Hi guys,

This is sure a popular thread!!! It's so popular, you now get your own forum. Congrats!

As you'll notice, I've also created a bigger racing area with different racing forums as well.

Keep it rockin!

[Zedrally]

At last, a dedicated forum to Rally(s)& 240z's!
Thanks Mike!
I'll open the discussion up for others that may be interested in different types of rally(s)see which is going to be most popular [Forest Racing ala WRC, Tarmac Rally or those Navigational Nightmares] or is it going to be Rally Prep?
Currently I have been campaigning a 240z in all 3 types with moderate results.
I have been experiancing intermitant problems with Headlight & Driving Light failure and am wondering if there are any others on the list who have experianced a similar problem?
So far the problem only occurs when the DL's are switched on. ie all lights on High. The failure usually occurs at the end of stage when Low beam is selected and pow! no lights!!!!
Any ideas!!!!
Mike

[Z-point]

Hi guys,

Maybe we find here some truth about the History of the Southern Cross. It is so to speak very nearby!!

I already used this information in my victor lane.

http://www.amsag.com.au/amsag/cross.htm

Regards,

Guus
Z-point

http://www.z-point.nl/victory_lane.htm constantly updating

[Z-point]

Hi guys,

Maybe we find here some truth about the History of the Southern Cross. It is so to speak very nearby!!

I already used this information in my victor lane.

http://www.amsag.com.au/amsag/cross.htm

Regards,

Guus
Z-point

http://www.z-point.nl/victory_lane.htm constantly updating

here's a picture from one of the cars

Guus

[Doehring]

Thank you for the forum, Mike.

[Doehring]

Zedrallye,

up to now I didn't have your problem in an event but I fear I will get it as soon as I would drive with 6 lights burning. I think the Z's generator isn't powerful enough, as well as the battery. I changed the american sealed beam lights to Hella-bi jode that has a quite acceptable far going beam and add the Cibie wide angeled fog lights to have better visibility on both sides for cornering. I once tried the 100 W Hella far beam lights together with the Cibies and I got your troubles. So I decided the above compromise. Has anyone on the list experienced stronger generators or knows anyone what Datsun did to the works rallye cars ?

Rolf

[Z-point]

Zedrallye,

up to now I didn't have your problem in an event but I fear I will get it as soon as I would drive with 6 lights burning. I think the Z's generator isn't powerful enough, as well as the battery. I changed the american sealed beam lights to Hella-bi jode that has a quite acceptable far going beam and add the Cibie wide angeled fog lights to have better visibility on both sides for cornering. I once tried the 100 W Hella far beam lights together with the Cibies and I got your troubles. So I decided the above compromise. Has anyone on the list experienced stronger generators or knows anyone what Datsun did to the works rallye cars ?

Rolf

Hi lights,

are you both working with relais?

I'll attach a picture how to deal with this matter

Guus

[Doehring]

Guus, thankyou for the hint on the relais. I use a relais because it is not allowed here to drive far beam and fog beam together in normal traffic. On special stages I use far beam and fog beam together what means I have to "overjump" the relais feeding the fog lights directly from the battery - and that sucks energy.
Rolf

[Z-point]

Guus, thankyou for the hint on the relais. I use a relais because it is not allowed here to drive far beam and fog beam together in normal traffic. On special stages I use far beam and fog beam together what means I have to "overjump" the relais feeding the fog lights directly from the battery - and that sucks energy.
Rolf

Rolf,

Thing is, every lamp set has his own relay and own wiring. The fog beam and the far beam also. Otherwise the amperage gets to high as you already mentioned. Perhaps you could also install a dynamo of a 280ZX?

What you need is a normal kind of relay with 4 poles 30, 85, 86 and 87. With this and lots of wiring, you can use both sets at once. Even in combination with your standard headlights.

And for the headlight circuit you also have a solution to minimize the amperage.
Go to
Pete Paraska pparaska@comcast.net IZCC#15
73 240Z marathon project <http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pparaska/>
See <http://HybridZ.org> for Datsun Z car drivetrain/susp/brake/chassis/body mods

There you find this link: 240Z Headlight Relay Circuit, this is also very useful and will kill amperage through the wires and headlight switch.

Good luck

Guus
Z-point

If you like I could send you a bigger picture of the wiring!

[Zedrally]

Full setup details as such:
Sealed Beam lights converted to H4, running 100/130w globes, each filiment is separetly relayed.
When I used only this setup all was OK.
Added DL (Hella spot 100w ea) and sep. relay, upgraded altenator to 85amp internal regulated.
That's when all my problems began.
On other point. I had originally wired the relays directly from the alternator, have now changed to starter motor, but very hesitant to try out the new arrangement just in case I have another double failure at speed amoungst the tree!
Mike