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Thread: Why no Datsuns in Historic series?

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    Registered User ZSaint's Avatar
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    Default Why no Datsuns in Historic series?

    I just came back from the Historic races at PIR. What are the rules of this sanctioning body? It seems to me that they need some 280Z CP cars to eat up most of the Cameros and Corvettes that they race. Is that the deal... AP and BP and AS is all they recognize? They also have Lotus/Cortina sedans. Why not a nice 1600cc 510? Is this a plot against Nissan/Datsun?
    Z Saint, the vintage racer! I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.

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    Biafra for President e_racer1999's Avatar
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    the other drivers complained and said it would be unfair to them
    Jason King
    6/72 240Z / HLS30 89646 (Yellow)
    1996 Infiniti I30 *I finally have all Nissans again!*
    1971 510 4door (wife's car)
    IZCC Member #14186

    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    Friday afternoon, one of the later heats run DID have a 510 buzzing around the track.

    I'll post a pic later, but it was the ONLY Datsun/Nissan in the entire event that I saw. Granted this was only on Friday and I didn't attend Sat. or Sun. so he may not have been there the other two days.

    E

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZSaint View Post
    I just came back from the Historic races at PIR. What are the rules of this sanctioning body? It seems to me that they need some 280Z CP cars to eat up most of the Camaros and Corvettes that they race. Is that the deal... AP and BP and AS is all they recognize? They also have Lotus/Cortina sedans. Why not a nice 1600cc 510? Is this a plot against Nissan/Datsun?
    I was surprised that there were no Zs . There was one 5 10 , but the class he was in he wasn't a factor. I don't know the Zs are classed and what they would be in competition with . I had fun on the parade lap on Sat. and was able to do a little ''spirited'' run through the chicane and festival turns . Sunday they stuck a Pace car right in front of me and I was forced to ''be good'' . 20 MPH on a race track is sacrilegious. Over all it was a great three day weekend. Gary
    I'd rather die while I am living than live while I am dieing. CZC 1887 IZCC 12602 Member of NorthWest Z Car Club

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    Supporting Member Diseazd's Avatar
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    Here are some pix from the historic races at VIR a few weeks ago.











    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7600346077563/
    ______________________________________________
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7603350695459/

    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    Wow.. a Datsun 610 in the background of the fourth picture!! Haven't seen any of them in years! Great car and still had the IRS..

    Carl B.

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    There is a fairly large contingent of VARA racers in SoCal who run Z's in the CP3 class or the CP3M (modified) class. From the stuff I've read it looks like their main competition is 911s, and the 911's try really hard to slant the rules in their favor. They are out there in vintage races though, maybe just not in OR.

    I think the 240s new eligibility in GT3 means that you'll probably see less of the 240s at the vintage races now that they don't have to get their asses handed to them in GT2. I'd imagine there will be quite a few coming out of retirement.
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZSaint View Post
    I just came back from the Historic races at PIR. What are the rules of this sanctioning body? It seems to me that they need some 280Z CP cars to eat up most of the Cameros and Corvettes that they race. Is that the deal... AP and BP and AS is all they recognize? They also have Lotus/Cortina sedans. Why not a nice 1600cc 510? Is this a plot against Nissan/Datsun?
    Hi ZSaint:
    PIR is in this case _ Portland International Raceway ???

    A friend of mine that used to live in Washington State - bought a 1969 Production Year 240-Z, because he thought it would qualify for use in whatever historic series racing club events that were held in that area.

    Then he found out that the rule that said; ... for Sports Cars produced prior to 1970...... really meant that it was for sports cars "raced" prior to 1970. Seems the local historic racing club was formed by Porsche owners - and they didn't realize any 240-Z's had been produced prior to 1970. No problem, they just changed the interpretation of the rule to preclude the 240-Z's - then later changed the written rules as well....

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Default Vintage Datsun's Racing-

    Thanks Carl,

    This is the long explanation, as this subject is near and dear to my heart. Many car enthusiasts watch the Monterey Historics (probably the largest Vintage Racing Event in the USA) and there are no Japanese cars as a rule. Here are some of the reasons why:

    First and foremost, vintage racing is an Ego and Money driven sport. Guys that show up in expensive Ford Cobra's, Corvettes, Porsches, Ferrari's and alike do not like the idea of being on the track with a car that is worth 1/100th of the value of their car. Worse yet, these Japanese cars were not terribly well prepared back in the day and were often in primer, and the guys in the expensive cars did not want "the guy" in the primered Datsun to cause an on track accident, where his losses would be minimal compared to the damage of a rare Ferrari, Alfa or Porsche.

    Most Japanese race cars (in the USA) were Datsuns and were considered low budget racers. Even worse, these little, relatively inexpensive cars were beating the more expensive cars and that hurt the ego's of the guys who spent thousands, even millions to restore a rare Ferrari (etc) to race specifications, only to have it passed by a 240Z or Datsun 510.

    So the sanctioning bodies that run these groups are not dumb, the money raised to run these events are from the big guys and not from the little guys. They want to keep their membership happy, so they exlude the japanese cars...The guys with the relatively expensive cars have their own group to run without the concern of a budget racer beating down their ego or their wallet...

    Well, now there is a lot more interest in the Japanese cars, with JDM styling, drifting competitions and import drags there is a new generation of enthusiasts and they like the Vintage Japanese cars...So I am hopeful that the tide will change and the old guard will see that the little Japanese cars deserve their spot on the track.

    There are more and more nicely turned out Datsuns, on the west coast I can name 7 to 10 really well sorted Datsuns that should be allowed at any historic racing event. Two of which are for sale. Bob Klemme's 67.5 roadster, and Brad Frissell's 240Z.

    HMSA (the group that runs the race groups for the Monterey Historics) also known as General Racing LTD, is the hold out as of now. Steve Earl, the CEO of General Racing LTD has been very outspoken regarding excluding Japanese cars. There have been very few occasions where Datsun's have been included at his events.

    I have submitted my 67.5 Roadster to run at the Coronado Speed Festival in San Diego this year (an HMSA/General Racing event). We will see if they accept my application. My car easily clears all their stringent restrictions for cars that have racing history, and are not "over restored" but, restored to a period of time. In this case 1967.

    Wish me luck...who knows, maybe I will have a chance to run at the Monterey Historics one day.

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    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Well, Ron..I wish you the best of luck and look forward to you showing your competitors the finer points of your rear bumper!

    This is a good general idea from what the Rest of the Enthusiasts think about our fun Z car:

    http://www.sportscarmarket.com/profi...ace/index.html

    FTA:

    "What we're really talking about here are entry-level, production vintage race cars, a group in which the 240Z is a late, not very desirable example. This is where virtually all vintage race drivers get their feet wet. "

    "There are a number of factors that force Datsuns into the low-dollar category. The biggest of these is that small- and mid-bore vintage racers are terribly Euro-centric, and Datsuns are just so, so...Japanese. Somehow the image of a cheese-cutter cap, a meerschaum pipe, and a scarf flapping in the wind just doesn't work with a Datsun, particularly not a 240Z."

    "The other problem is that they're a bit new for the golden era of vintage racing and some clubs won't accept them (however, most will). In Europe the FIA will make you run against Porsche 935s and RSRs, so you're stuck with being a moving chicane in the big leagues, but the local clubs will make room for you to play."

    Definitely reflects Ron's impressions..

    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

    Steve
    Steve

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    Biafra for President e_racer1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!
    thanks for the quote, steve!!
    Jason King
    6/72 240Z / HLS30 89646 (Yellow)
    1996 Infiniti I30 *I finally have all Nissans again!*
    1971 510 4door (wife's car)
    IZCC Member #14186

    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    As unfortunate as it may be, if you want to vintage race, go Euro....If you want to race for real, stick with the Z!

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    Torch Wielding Villager gogriz91's Avatar
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    I think Nissan is missing an opportunity in racing now. I see alot more Mazdas tearing it up on Speed than I do Nissans.
    '73 HLS30 129806 ; L-28, street cam, SUs, 5-speed, Koni's, Suspension techniques springs, swaybars, 3.90 R200 LSD

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    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by e_racer1999 View Post
    thanks for the quote, steve!!
    Sweet!
    Steve

    HLS30-81167 restored, top to bottom.
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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Nissan had their fill of racing in the 90's and it almost bankrupted the company. I would not look for support from NISSAN USA any time soon.

    Thanks Steve well said...It seems that we get a little more credit on the race track than we did just a couple of years ago.

    I am hopeful that we will see interest in the 2.5 Trans Am challenge cars of which the 510 was heavly involved. I hear that there are going to be several events based around those cars in the next year.

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    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Wow.. a Datsun 610 in the background of the fourth picture!! ...
    Carl B.
    Are you referring to the Red Ford Capri in the background? Hard to be sure, but that silhouette is pretty distinctive.

    E

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    Oh darn - wishful thinking on my part, put my glasses on and it does look like a Ford Capri back there.

    Carl B.

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    Thank you for the information on Historic vehicles and their santioning bodies. It seems to me that a good CP Z would add a lot of interest to their Trans-Am race. It would be a gas watching the Z stay with the AP 'Vettes. The winning car was turning 1.26's. I think a good Z will run a few seconds faster then that. Oh well, it is only a hobby and nobody actually races. Right...!

    I agree with Chris that Saturday was a lot more fun then Sunday. This Porshe lead car was not about to let us go more that 20 mph around the corners on Sunday. I noticed the cars that they let out on the track between races were "on it". These were street cars and they were really going quickly. Oh well, maybe I'll just have to build one to race, again.
    Z Saint, the vintage racer! I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.

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    we have done a few races in europe with a 240z , the class we are driving at the moment is Gr G what means FIA GT / GTC til 1972 what means quite a lot of restrictions because of homologations , most of the racing , especialy endurance i do with my 1965 mustang shelby 350 GT .
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    Adrian
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    8/1970 240z HLS30-07996
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    i think in the future , two or three years the Datsun 240z will be seen more often on European racetracks in hystoric race meetings .
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    Adrian
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    Certifiably nuts The Wingnut's Avatar
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    Just got back from the Monterey Historics.

    After 10 years of going, hey presto, a 280 Z.



    I told the guy fueling it that I was really happy to see the car, and wished there were more present. He said they were trying to make a difference, so it's well known that Datsuns don't get much respect in vintage racing.

    This particular Z has evidently been a racer all of its life, and ran in the GTU series.
    '74 260 Z #1048, round tops on an L28 and 5 speed.
    Nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake.
    Speed limit? FLOORBOARD!

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    Certifiably nuts The Wingnut's Avatar
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    A few more.





    This is Brad Frisselle's car, not sure if it's the Bob Sharp 280z with a repaint.
    Last edited by The Wingnut; 08-20-2007 at 12:51 AM.
    '74 260 Z #1048, round tops on an L28 and 5 speed.
    Nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake.
    Speed limit? FLOORBOARD!

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    Certifiably nuts The Wingnut's Avatar
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    Aha! Here's the car in its early years.

    '74 260 Z #1048, round tops on an L28 and 5 speed.
    Nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake.
    Speed limit? FLOORBOARD!

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    In Western Australia there are at least seven Zeds running in the 'Round the Houses' races for classic cars and other historic classes and hillclimbs. The WA Z Register is very active and attracting an increasing level of interest. Some recent 2007 articles with photos attached.
    Cheers Chris




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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wingnut View Post
    Just got back from the Monterey Historics.

    After 10 years of going, hey presto, a 280 Z.

    I told the guy fueling it that I was really happy to see the car, and wished there were more present. He said they were trying to make a difference, so it's well known that Datsuns don't get much respect in vintage racing.

    This particular Z has evidently been a racer all of its life, and ran in the GTU series.
    That car was at one time advertised as a very early 240-Z.... Did you get a chance to look under the hood at the firewall VIN?

    Granted - the tail lights aren't from a 240-Z... The "asking" price on that car was $275K...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Zeds competing in 'Round the Houses' historic racing in Western Australia.

    Cheers Chris

    Round the Houses Zeds.doc

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    Registered User Tony D's Avatar
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    "Nissan had their fill of racing in the 90's and it almost bankrupted the company. "

    With all due respect Ron, the worldwide racing budget wasn't the problem with Nissan almost going bankrupt in the 90's. As a matter of fact, it was probably the only portion of the company that had a positive P.R. effect on the company's sales. Mismanagement Incompetence at the highest levels of the corporation had a FAR bogger impact on their financials than any racing support program ever did.

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    Registered User Tony D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by z-spec View Post
    i think in the future , two or three years the Datsun 240z will be seen more often on European racetracks in hystoric race meetings .
    I hear you recently received another container chock-full of parts, as well as two more 240 Chassis...and an LPG BBQ!

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    Certifiably nuts The Wingnut's Avatar
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    I asked what was under the hood, the guy fueling it said it was an L28, he didn't know what had been done to the motor. Didn't get to see under the hood, by the time I got back to the paddock the owner had left.

    I emailed the photos to Brad Frischelle last night, already got a response. He was glad to see the photos but didn't know who has the car now.

    You're right in that all of the references to the car I've seen call it a 240. The 260 / 280 tails threw me off, those might have been changed to stay current with the model years as they progressed.
    '74 260 Z #1048, round tops on an L28 and 5 speed.
    Nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake.
    Speed limit? FLOORBOARD!

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    You're right in that all of the references to the car I've seen call it a 240. The 260 / 280 tails threw me off, those might have been changed to stay current with the model years as they progressed.
    Correct. IMSA GTU rules required a car running a L26 or a L28 to be a 260 or a 280Z in appearance.

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    Torch Wielding Villager gogriz91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    "Nissan had their fill of racing in the 90's and it almost bankrupted the company. "

    With all due respect Ron, the worldwide racing budget wasn't the problem with Nissan almost going bankrupt in the 90's. As a matter of fact, it was probably the only portion of the company that had a positive P.R. effect on the company's sales. Mismanagement Incompetence at the highest levels of the corporation had a FAR bogger impact on their financials than any racing support program ever did.

    I figured Nissan knocked it off because they stopped selling the Z and the budget for what they were spending on racing wasn't being made up in sales. It's still a shame when you see how Mazda is running with their Miata series and the Speed whatever challenge that's dominated by 626s. Other than drift, you don't see very many Nissans out there.
    '73 HLS30 129806 ; L-28, street cam, SUs, 5-speed, Koni's, Suspension techniques springs, swaybars, 3.90 R200 LSD

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    I think that it would be more correct to say that Nissan isn't sponsoring any cars... but let's not forget about CORR, they're are pretty active in with their trucks. There's probably more profit in truck sales here in the U.S. anyway. I will be heading down to the Zippo U.S. Vintage Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in September... I hope that I'll see some Datsuns in competition there, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Here is a page some of you may not be familiar with, it's the Nissan Motorsports page...
    http://www.nissan-dakar.com/EN/index.html

    Nate
    -Nate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    I hear you recently received another container chock-full of parts, as well as two more 240 Chassis...and an LPG BBQ!
    I wait for a invitation to fire up this BBQ , the new owner need probably somebody who can explane the thing .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony D View Post
    I hear you recently received another container chock-full of parts, as well as two more 240 Chassis...and an LPG BBQ!
    Welkom to Spa Francorshamps Tony ,for the famous Hystoric 6 Hours race meeting ,to join my Racing Team and watching 24 american pistons ( three Shelby Mustang 350GT,s) running around for 6 hours of racing in the night , we have plenty of Belgian Beer and Bratwurst , one day you wil be hear there 6 japanese pistons with its roots out of your garden .
    Adrian
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    WESTCOASTZRACER ron carter's Avatar
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    Hi Tony D. I was referring to NISSAN USA, in the 90's and although there were several reasons why Nissan USA had issues, this is the one they chose to blame...

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