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Thread: Wish I could have such luck selling on eBay!

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    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
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    Default Wish I could have such luck selling on eBay!

    '73 240Z at $8,600 and climbing but still hasn't met the reserve price...


    I know 240's go for more than 260's so I'd be more than happy to get $6,000 for my low mileage (72k) early 260Z. Maybe I should ask this guy to list it for me.
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
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    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    Direct eBay link for those not wanting to download a pdf:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsu...spagenameZWDVW

    Here's an expensive 260Z:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Gravely-260Z-27-...QQcmdZViewItem
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

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    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    Direct eBay link for those not wanting to download a pdf:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsu...spagenameZWDVW

    Here's an expensive 260Z:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Gravely-260Z-27-...QQcmdZViewItem

    I included an embedded link to the eBay listing in the "'73 240Z at $8,600" part of my post... I also included the .PDF because I've found so many posts that referenced expired eBay listings, expired Craigslist ads, or other outdated URL's that were no long valid, etc. If somebody does a search a year from now and finds this post at least they can see what I was referring to and not get a broken link.


    But thanks for posting. I've got my eye on the 260.
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

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    Z Club of San Diego Montezuma's Avatar
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    I can pick that Z apart: What is up with the bumper, where is the chrome? Why would a car with less than 50K miles need not have the original bumpers/chrome? 50K miles, is it documented? It is a PA car, I have a 1973 PA Z, it was a disappointment and its online pictures where so much better. Whoever buys this car will not be happy with the purchase.

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    Nice car, but it's really just driver in very good condition. Even though it claims rust free and "professional paint job", you don't know what quality the body work is under it. Unfortunatly, the only way to tell is if there were pictures, you believe the owners word, or you take all the paint off. Still, I can't believe it's doing that much. My 91 Mustang GT with 19k on it only did 8600 last week.

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    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yor5150 View Post
    I included an embedded link to the eBay listing in the "'73 240Z at $8,600" part of my post.
    Ah, of course. I obviously focused on the attachment without paying enough attention to your post. Sorry.
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

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    Registered User Oiluj's Avatar
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    Default

    Does look like a nice driver, but I wouldn't trust a 35 year old car to be "rust free" coming from a snow-belt state... I know it's possible, but I'm a wee bit skeptical.

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    Registered User Walter Moore's Avatar
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    Wait and see if it actually sells.

    It seems like fairly frequently there are cars listed on Ebay with unstated reserve prices that generate unrealistic bids but never sell. I have never been sure what is really going on when that happens, but I always suspect some form of a scam in process that most of us only see from a distance.

    Like maybe someone is trying to generate a "history" to inflate the value of a car they are really going to sell locally? Insurance fraud? Who knows.

    In any event it isn't a real sale until someone PAYS for the car.
    '71 240Z, Because any fool can drive fast in a straight line.

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    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
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    Default good point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Moore View Post
    In any event it isn't a real sale until someone PAYS for the car.
    If and when someone does actually pay, I have a lot of "RARE" as most of the eBay ads say, Z parts to sell them!
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

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    DeesZ (John) DeesZ's Avatar
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    Default

    To me there is something a bit fishy about this one... PA car in good shape is odd, but let's say it is in good shape (put aside the issues of weird front bumper, steering wheel, etc.) It's not a show car, but could be a real nice driver. But really, isn't that a high bid for a good driver? I would have to know and see a lot more than the description provides. It's a scant description and really a big lack of pictures of very important places..... Haven't we seen a fair amount of nicer cars go for less?
    Some people list like this, have friends bid them up, then relist later using the first sale price as an interest inflater. I'm not saying that's what's going on here at all, but I think it'll be relisted soon whether it 'sells' or not. Just a thought, not a fact.
    See my Gallery .....
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=9676

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    CZCC #9676 - IZCC #14985
    1972 - HLS30-84646 - My driver - matching #'s - Nice ride
    1973 - HLS30-132236 - RIP - Reduced to boxes of spare parts in the garage

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    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
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    Default $9,362.00 - Reserve not met

    Surreal...
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

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    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Slightly off-topic....Sorry for the noob question, but how do you convert the auction page to a .pdf? I like that idea!

    Thanks.
    Steve

    HLS30-81167 restored, top to bottom.
    2001 M roadster Gehen sie Schneller!
    1987 SpecE30 Trackster...welcome home!
    Making up for owning a minivan...
    http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd

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    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    I read threads like this one and marvel at the amazing capability of folks to belittle, disect and otherwise denigrate a vehicle presented to them via pictures, that has been cleaned up and attempts made to make it more desireable to prospective buyers.

    Yet, based solely on a member's description of an admitted RUSTED vehicle, we praise it's virtues and potential: see
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/s...068#post246068

    It seems that ANY attempt at making it sellable is a negative.

    Opening statements such as
    I can pick that Z apart.
    or
    To me there is something a bit fishy about this one...
    speak volumes about our willingness to find fault and "chinks" in the presentation.

    Heck, I'll bet that the vehicles that can survive the kind of suspicious inspection that gets formulated are few and far between....if any. I wonder how many of these folk's vehicles would.

    How come nobody suggested a drive out to inspect the car? It may have at least lent credence to the disection as a form of discussion, but other than that most of the comments are nothing but conjecture based on the ability to doubt the image presented.

    Are there flaws, you bet. The Chrome on the bumpers is a very sad tell-tale, that might be a very innocent .... oops! or an intentional effort at correcting a poor chrome job from 35+ years ago. (And that has been known to occur so often that we recommend, painting, powder coating, re-chroming, etc. just to make it presentable.)

    Not every vehicle that gets stored and forgotten in a garage gets put away properly. Nor do they get maintained every week, month...sometimes year. Will some items in the car deteriorate just from sitting around being exposed to the air? Yup. If not properly put away, (and we have dozens of threads on how to do just that) we all mention what problems you may expect. What if this car is an attempt at correcting a poor storage procedure? It might not be all damaged goods.

    I wonder if we would belittle it as much if we found out the car was one of our member's who was having it sold by a 3rd party simply to avoid the hazzle of the sale, or an estate sale.

    Would we belittle Bambikiller's vehicle in the same manner? I know his vehicle had had a lot of work done on it, and still needed more work when he passed away.

    Sorry, but there's enough negativity in the world without fomenting it here. If you want to point out questionable items, fine, do so. But attributing evil intent, or an intent to defraud, or a willingness to cheat....that's what's just plain old ugly and distasteful.

    My .5˘ (it's not worth a full penny)
    E

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    Registered User MikeW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    Slightly off-topic....Sorry for the noob question, but how do you convert the auction page to a .pdf? I like that idea!
    If you use windows you can use the free PrimoPDF which is a printer driver that creates PDF files. In the case of an eBay auction you'd just tell your browser to print the page and select the PDF driver instead of a normal printer.

    http://www.primopdf.com/
    -Mike
    Add your Z to my online spreadsheet registry

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    Z Pilot BRE-240Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    If you use windows you can use the free PrimoPDF which is a printer driver that creates PDF files.
    If you have a Mac, you just print to PDF....it's built into the OS.
    .


    1971 Datsun 240Z
    HLS30-30806
    Asheville, North Carolina
    IZCC #14802



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    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Default shooting ourselves in the foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon View Post
    I read threads like this one and marvel at the amazing capability of folks to belittle, disect and otherwise denigrate a vehicle presented to them via pictures, that has been cleaned up and attempts made to make it more desireable to prospective buyers.

    (...snipped)...
    Are there flaws, you bet. The Chrome on the bumpers is a very sad tell-tale, that might be a very innocent .... oops! or an intentional effort at correcting a poor chrome job from 35+ years ago. (And that has been known to occur so often that we recommend, painting, powder coating, re-chroming, etc. just to make it presentable.)

    Not every vehicle that gets stored and forgotten in a garage gets put away properly. Nor do they get maintained every week, month...sometimes year. Will some items in the car deteriorate just from sitting around being exposed to the air? Yup. If not properly put away, (and we have dozens of threads on how to do just that) we all mention what problems you may expect. What if this car is an attempt at correcting a poor storage procedure? It might not be all damaged goods.


    My .5˘ (it's not worth a full penny)
    E

    Enrique,

    Firstly, your opinions are always more valuable than the credit you give them. You raise many good points, and I've also grown tired of the hobby of picking apart every car offered for sale.

    The interesting thing is that despite all it's flaws, the car nearly garnered $10,000 in bids. Even though it didn't meet reserve, I think that's potentially significant. IMO, from what I saw of that car 10k is not too far from what it's worth.

    Now, if we'd just quit the sniping and be more supportive of folks trying to EBay or sell their Z, we may see (or stop preventing) an increase in interest and/or value to our cars. You think people looking for another project don't browse this site looking for info on restoration, value etc? And when they do, and see people posting about why this or the other car is not worth $2 or some such nonsense, that forms an impression on them that gets carried forward to other potential Z purchases. I think it perpetuates the notion that this car is "bargain basement" or "entry level" value, in the face of all the positive press in the collector car mags about how the Z is the One to Watch.

    I am a perfect example of this. I'm looking for my next project, and am considering an Alfa, a 914/6 an early 911 or something similar. I immediately cruised their respective forums (where I could find them) to see what people are thinking in regards to buy/sell values and the commensurate condition of the car, and have had to revise upward what I'm willing to pay for a good restorable example of each of those marques. Why? Because very few folks tear down each other's cars that are for sale, regardless whether they are a forum member or not. They know that there's intrinsic value, even if the car's in need of serious TLC. I am certainly not an outlier in this process, so I think it reasonable to assume others do the same when looking for a Z as a potential restoration candidate.

    So, when times get tough, or your interests change, and you go to sell your Z you should remember that the reason you don't get what you think it should be worth may have something to do with statements made on forums like those above. Folks may enjoy ripping into the condition of one car or the other, but I think in the end it may do more harm than good.

    E, I'll see your $0.005 and raise you $0.02...
    Steve

    HLS30-81167 restored, top to bottom.
    2001 M roadster Gehen sie Schneller!
    1987 SpecE30 Trackster...welcome home!
    Making up for owning a minivan...
    http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd

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    Bitten by the Z bug hard bigoak's Avatar
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    Hear hear...
    Bigoak

    '71 240Z
    '77 280Z
    '87 300ZX

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts. Remember the guy trying to sell a high-dollar Z a while back ranting about how we Z enthusiasts are cheap b*****ds and aren't willing to pay what these cars are worth? He wasn't pleasant about it, but the gist of his rant was that we Z people are holding down the values on our own cars.

    And you know what? Maybe he was right...
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    long time owner a7dz's Avatar
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    Have to agree with the thoughts of not tearing down a car for sale here. I have found myself protecting the cars here of late. Two years ago when I started into this 70, Parts were pretty easy to come by, as we keep letting these go by saying that one is not worth that much or it is just a parts car. We all loose. Yes, some of these cars are not easy ones to repair or restore. Mine was in that class. But, it is a beautiful car today. Was it worth the efforts you tell me? On this side of the steering wheel it is better then ever
    Jim
    Bought my 70Z at 21 with 24,000 miles
    Still own it. Thirty plus years later.


  20. #20
    Registered User Z Speed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    Enrique,

    Firstly, your opinions are always more valuable than the credit you give them. You raise many good points, and I've also grown tired of the hobby of picking apart every car offered for sale.

    The interesting thing is that despite all it's flaws, the car nearly garnered $10,000 in bids. Even though it didn't meet reserve, I think that's potentially significant. IMO, from what I saw of that car 10k is not too far from what it's worth.

    Now, if we'd just quit the sniping and be more supportive of folks trying to EBay or sell their Z, we may see (or stop preventing) an increase in interest and/or value to our cars. You think people looking for another project don't browse this site looking for info on restoration, value etc? And when they do, and see people posting about why this or the other car is not worth $2 or some such nonsense, that forms an impression on them that gets carried forward to other potential Z purchases. I think it perpetuates the notion that this car is "bargain basement" or "entry level" value, in the face of all the positive press in the collector car mags about how the Z is the One to Watch.

    I am a perfect example of this. I'm looking for my next project, and am considering an Alfa, a 914/6 an early 911 or something similar. I immediately cruised their respective forums (where I could find them) to see what people are thinking in regards to buy/sell values and the commensurate condition of the car, and have had to revise upward what I'm willing to pay for a good restorable example of each of those marques. Why? Because very few folks tear down each other's cars that are for sale, regardless whether they are a forum member or not. They know that there's intrinsic value, even if the car's in need of serious TLC. I am certainly not an outlier in this process, so I think it reasonable to assume others do the same when looking for a Z as a potential restoration candidate.

    So, when times get tough, or your interests change, and you go to sell your Z you should remember that the reason you don't get what you think it should be worth may have something to do with statements made on forums like those above. Folks may enjoy ripping into the condition of one car or the other, but I think in the end it may do more harm than good.

    E, I'll see your $0.005 and raise you $0.02...
    I couldn't agree more. Very well stated Steve.....
    "May the traffic be light and the curves be tight."

    "72" 240-Z
    "02" E46 M3
    "05" S40 T5
    "02" Honda Passport

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    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
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    Default Thanks Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    If you use windows you can use the free PrimoPDF which is a printer driver that creates PDF files. In the case of an eBay auction you'd just tell your browser to print the page and select the PDF driver instead of a normal printer.

    http://www.primopdf.com/

    Thanks Mike. I hadn't heard of PrimoPDF. I use CutePDF, another freebie.
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by a7dz View Post
    Have to agree with the thoughts of not tearing down a car for sale here. ..snipped....
    I'm not so sure I do.

    Let me see if I understand this correctly. We are talking about the car here.....

    We are all here to discuss Z Cars, most of us already own one (or more) and have at least some hands on experience in the past year or two. (yes/no?)

    People that are interested in perhaps buying a Z - come here to gain information about them - and many times that results in them asking us - what should they look for, how much should they pay, what does it cost to refresh/restore or even "save one".... (yes/no?)

    Then a car comes up for sale - and so that we don't hurt our own financial interests - we are supposed to stop finding, and pointing out all the faults with the cars offered for sale??

    We should refrain from warning potential buyers - ie. the people that might become a member of our group - ... we should refrain from pointing out the flaws and thus the additional expenses they might incur with any particular car being considered for purchase ...

    Sorry, but I see your logic as somewhat backwards.... We should be helping the new buyers get the best car they can - so that they keep them. They should be buying with their eyes wide open. We should also be holding seller's to a level of honesty in disclosure....

    I don't believe that telling the truth in public - can hurt any of us in the end.

    There is also a huge difference in pointing out the flaws of any particular Z - and arguing about it's market value. I'll have to agree that many people here hold much lower opinions as to the market values of many of these cars - than the market actually seems to be telling us...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

  23. #23
    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
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    Default Caveat emptor Caveat venditor Absit invidia

    Thank goodness for freedom of speech. I'm glad that we all have a chance to express our opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeesZ View Post
    I would have to know and see a lot more than the description provides. It's a scant description and really a big lack of pictures of very important places..... Haven't we seen a fair amount of nicer cars go for less?
    Some people list like this, have friends bid them up, then relist later using the first sale price as an interest inflater. I'm not saying that's what's going on here at all, but I think it'll be relisted soon whether it 'sells' or not. Just a thought, not a fact.
    It didn't sell and the ad still seems suspicious to me. I believe DeesZ is on the mark especially about the lack of pictures in all the places Z lovers want to see pictures of.

    Whether it was legitimate or not I hope my 260 generates as much interest when I sell it in the next few months.

    Just tossing a few more pennies in the pot. Pretty soon we'll have enough to buy a parts car.
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

  24. #24
    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    I'm not so sure I do.
    Let me see if I understand this correctly...
    Sorry Carl, you missed the point entirely. Please read on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    We are talking about the car here.....

    We are all here to discuss Z Cars, most of us already own one (or more) and have at least some hands on experience in the past year or two. (yes/no?).
    Yes, we're all presumably here to discuss Z cars, not figure out how people are intentionally trying to cheat, lie or otherwise deceive others when selling a car. That's the main crux of what I pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    People that are interested in perhaps buying a Z - come here to gain information about them - and many times that results in them asking us - what should they look for, how much should they pay, what does it cost to refresh/restore or even "save one".... (yes/no?).
    If that is how you see the content of this thread, then maybe I'm the one that has the wrong insight into how to discuss the value of a car. Then again, I've never been a car salesman.

    To me, alluding "insurance fraud", "scams", schill bidders, skepticism as to the truth behind the pictures, allegations based on the number of pictures, presuming a dishonest intent on behalf of the seller...are all indications of a non-accepting disposition.

    None of these have anything to do with the value of, nor what to look for in the car...they all lead people to think that if the car has been washed or detailed, then the seller is hidding something. That's is simply NOT necessarily the case.

    Does it sometimes happen? Yes it does, but that doesn't render everyone who is trying to sell a car guilty of being dishonest simply because they washed the dirt and grime off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Then a car comes up for sale - and so that we don't hurt our own financial interests - we are supposed to stop finding, and pointing out all the faults with the cars offered for sale?? .
    Sorry Carl, that take is entirely your own misunderstanding. That's not what is being said, nor implied.

    What IS being implied...directly...is that as a group we seem to speak out of both sides of our mouth, or with a forked tongue. Let me try to explain.

    If a car shows up on e-Bay by an unknown person...it's a free for all to see who can best come up with a "cut-down", or a "Yo mama..." type of joke regarding the evil, dishonest, and untruthfulness of the e-bay seller.

    Yet, a member mentions a rust bucket and we laud it's potential value, praise it's future potential and generally encourage the member as to what a good find he made and how he should go ahead and devote time and money to it. (go back and read the further posts to the thread I reference above)

    I am not saying to NOT mention the flaws...I'm saying don't attribute wrongful, evil, dishonest, or untruthful motives to those that address the flaws.

    Many times those flaws are obvious, and people unwittingly attempt to repair them. Mostly they are doing it to maximize their sale potential...NOT TO DEFRAUD YOU.

    They, like many members here, feel quite good about some of the work they have done. And that is where I asked how we would treat a member's car. Whether offered for sale by him, or by his executor, or.... I'll bet that if we know whose car it is, the treatment will be much more benevolent than any other car that we've discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    We should refrain from warning potential buyers - ie. the people that might become a member of our group - ... we should refrain from pointing out the flaws and thus the additional expenses they might incur with any particular car being considered for purchase ....
    Again, this is your misunderstanding.

    Even with some of the cars you have had a hand in selling. Whether as a commissioned salesperson, contact point, or go-between, many times the buyer comes back and mentions further expenses they choose to make.

    Should we start wondering why there wasn't a full disclosure of additional expenses they chose to incur? Was your intent evil? Did you purposedly HIDE something from the buyer and they then discover it?

    Probably not. I'll go so far as to say that this offends you, as that is undoubtedly not even something you would think about. And there you have my point. (And please note, I am NOT implying you are deceiving folks, your record stands alone, and the praise is noteworthy.)

    With ANY car purchase; new, old, restored or refreshed, part of the act of taking ownership and feeling pride in just plain owning or in actually doing some work with it, comes the part where you do something to, in your mind, make the car...YOURS. Whether that's a pair of fuzzy dice, new valve cover, metal tire valve caps, paint job, new interior or just simply a wash and wax, it's what you've done, and now the car is and feels yours.

    Sometimes those expenses are things you knew when you bought the car. Other times, they can be a surprise. The soft clutch turns out to be a totally worn disk and not a bleed or a new slave. The little clunk from the rear end isn't a loose half-shaft, it's a bad transmission or differential. Were these intentionally with held? Maybe and more than likely MAYBE NOT.

    I'm sure that you'll agree that the sellers in the transactions you were involved in did NOT have any evil, dishonest or malevolent intent inadvertently forgetting that .... "Ooops, yes, the clutch DID get changed at 40k because my wife rode the pedal while learning how to drive a stick and we simply forgot about replacing it. Sorry about that".

    As opposed to: "A car with 80k on the ORIGINAL cluch? I don't think so, there's something fishy going on here! What kind of a SCAM are you trying to pull?"

    "Seller said 'New tires' but at 50k miles? Also a new muffler? Hmmm, must have been raced everywhere! The guy is trying to rip you off!" and not, "Tires got flat spots from sitting, muffler rusted out from old age and mice, we replaced them to make the car nicer and ready to drive."

    That's the kind of negative attitude I refer to. Nothing to do with value, market or otherwise, simply the negativity of the whole thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Sorry, but I see your logic as somewhat backwards.... We should be helping the new buyers get the best car they can - so that they keep them. They should be buying with their eyes wide open. We should also be holding seller's to a level of honesty in disclosure.

    I don't believe that telling the truth in public - can hurt any of us in the end.
    ....
    You're correct in that we should be helping interested people, potential buyers to get the best CAR, my point is that it is not about the best STORY about potential conspiracies designed to defraud them.

    While there are people out there who DO need to be reminded to be truthfull, it isn't EVERYONE. That is the crux of my point. Let's not continue to assign malicious intent to oftentimes innocent actions.

    Then again, isn't that why Car salesmen jokes are always filled with how the buyer gets ripped off? Because after all, Grandmothers on their way to church on Sunday use the slicks, the fart can mufflers and the stroker engines to make sure they get heard before they arrive....right?

    Telling the truth is ideal, yet with people so willing to try to see wrongdoing in simple declarations....THAT'S what can hurt us NOW and in the end.

    It paints this forum's members as a bunch of harpies just willing to pick apart any car that isn't their own. What we build in respect for our knowledge base and speed of response gets washed away by the cutting edge of these "discussions". Let's address the obvious FACTS and not the innuendos; note the painted bumper as not being correct, not as the guy is obviously trying to pull a fast one. Note the fresh black paint in the wheel wells as a common practice in new and used car lots everywhere and not...it's hiding something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    There is also a huge difference in pointing out the flaws of any particular Z - and arguing about it's market value. I'll have to agree that many people here hold much lower opinions as to the market values of many of these cars - than the market actually seems to be telling us...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Sorry Carl, you missed the point entirely.

    It isn't about pointing out the flaws, it's HOW we go about pointing out the flaws.

    It isn't about the individual car's market value, it's how we belittle each and every flaw and render the car as a potential bomb waiting to explode. It's how we conclude that every car being sold MUST have flaws, it can't possibly be that nice. It's how we allude to the seller's dishonesty and intention to deceive.

    It's how we PUBLICLY and OPENLY demonize and degrade the people who are selling their cars.

    It's how we denigrate, belittle and go further out of our way the higher the price being sought. That's just plain old - WRONG.

    Whether they are original owner's, heirs of original owner's, executors of estates, second owner's or people who have gone out to dig out that "barn find" or even Grandpa's car who after years in the nursing home finally agrees that the chances of his driving it again are slim, but he insists that the car be washed and waxed and please shoot some black paint in the wheel wells because he wants a last set of pictures that match the ones when he picked it up from the dealer....I'll be willing to bet that most of these people are trying to find an easy and quick way of maximizing the money they receive for the car.

    Sometimes that's through e-Bay (whether we approve of it or not), othertimes it's through Craig's list (for all it's limitations) and other times it's through the newspaper ads or the help of individuals such as you and other's. Could that be why you don't often post potential sales here? Or would the point I'm making be the reason why potential sellers would NOT want to post here?

    There may be a bad apple or two, but from the last few threads that discuss car sales....you would swear that all sellers are like the corner drug dealer trying to sell you a bag of good sh!t.

    Many sellers and also you, from what the people whom you have helped buy a car point, DO have the utmost honest and benevolent attitudes towards making sure the new owner benefits. That is why painting all sellers with the broad brush of dishonesty is unfair.

    As a side note:

    The Z's prices have been rising slowly and steadily over the years. I recall when I bought mine that getting a $7,000 loan (not what I paid) was only secureable by using both the Z and an Acura Legend as collateral as even the HIGH NADA Price was only $5k or so. Nowdays the values are at $9,950 as the AVERAGE and HIGH is ... $18,325. So it IS getting better.
    (http://www.nadaguides.com/default.as...&z=98685&da=-1)

    FWIW, and apologies for the soap box.
    E

  25. #25
    '73 Orange 240Z 4spd 1973Z's Avatar
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    Escanlon, I agree with your post. Too often members of this board get super critical on any Z-car bringing good money. We have to assume that the bidders did their research as to what the current market prices are bringing for the conditions sought, and that they probably went out to inspect the vehicle rather than just relying on pictures and forum board comments.

    This site and others like Carl's provide fantastic information on what to look for when buying a Z - but to totally tear a car and seller down without having met either, doesn't seem right.

    Let's not tear down Z-car values, let's try to raise both awareness and prices! I like seeing that my beloved 35+year old pride and joy is worth more than a 5 year old Honda Civic ...$.02
    Mostly stock '73 240Z
    Original Retro Orange


    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/838926 240Z

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oiluj View Post
    Does look like a nice driver, but I wouldn't trust a 35 year old car to be "rust free" coming from a snow-belt state... I know it's possible, but I'm a wee bit skeptical.
    I bought a "rust free" low mileage (26K) New England car, and found plenty of latent rust when I really got into it in the doglegs and in the rockers. Not so much rust that I'm unhappy, but I only paid $3,800 for my 73.
    Paul Martin
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by a7dz View Post
    Have to agree with the thoughts of not tearing down a car for sale here.
    Hi E.
    The above is what I quoted - note it says clearly "not tearing down a car for sale here".
    I reinforced that by writing ... "We are talking about the car here..."

    Yet the main jest of your entire response to my Post - was about assigning unscrupulous motives to sellers. I think I understood what you were originally saying... thus no response to your Post.

    THEN:
    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    Enrique,
    ....snipped....
    So, when times get tough, or your interests change, and you go to sell your Z you should remember that the reason you don't get what you think it should be worth may have something to do with statements made on forums like those above. Folks may enjoy ripping into the condition of one car or the other, but I think in the end it may do more harm than good.

    E, I'll see your $0.005 and raise you $0.02...
    The Above statement brought my response:
    "Then a car comes up for sale - and so that we don't hurt our own financial interests - we are supposed to stop finding, and pointing out all the faults with the cars offered for sale?? ."

    To Which E replied:
    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon View Post
    Sorry Carl, that take is entirely your own misunderstanding. That's not what is being said, nor implied.
    I think you are saying that's not what was said nor implied by YOU. I felt it was certainly implied in X-Ray's statement.

    I know that this has been a confusing thread... but I think you have confused my Post, with anything you originally wrote, and I believe that within your farther responses you are intermixing comments about the cars and comments about the sellers.... then farther compounding the discussion by assigning motives to the people that made comments...

    You did have a few clear statements - to which I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by EScanlon View Post
    It's how we PUBLICLY and OPENLY demonize and degrade the people who are selling their cars.

    AND

    There may be a bad apple or two, but from the last few threads that discuss car sales....you would swear that all sellers are like the corner drug dealer trying to sell you a bag of good sh!t.
    But I hasten to add - I said NOTHING about the sellers, nor the discussion related to the sellers motives..


    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Last edited by Carl Beck; 02-24-2008 at 08:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Remember the guy trying to sell a high-dollar Z a while back ranting about how we Z enthusiasts are cheap b*****ds and aren't willing to pay what these cars are worth? He wasn't pleasant about it, but the gist of his rant was that we Z people are holding down the values on our own cars.

    And you know what? Maybe he was right...
    Tony D has been saying this for a while, and I agree. It seems as though a majority of S30 owners bought an S30 to begin with because they were inexpensive. They are used to the parts being inexpensive and try to do everything on a budget. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

    However, many of them also fail to recognize that there are fewer S30s on the road (qualified-see end of paragraph); that pristine parts are harder to find; that clean examples of early S30s are becoming scarce; finally, while there are fewer S30s around, it seems as though many of the once "barn-stored/back-yard stored/on the driveway under a tarp stored" S30s are finding new owners. All of this adds up to increased prices for cars and parts.
    -Bo

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    "Something wicked this way comes...."

  29. #29
    Sportscars FTW! xray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi E.
    The above is what I quoted - note it says clearly "not tearing down a car for sale here".
    I reinforced that by writing ... "We are talking about the car here..."

    Yet the main jest of your entire response to my Post - was about assigning unscrupulous motives to sellers. I think I understood what you were originally saying... thus no response to your Post.

    THEN:


    The Above statement brought my response:
    "Then a car comes up for sale - and so that we don't hurt our own financial interests - we are supposed to stop finding, and pointing out all the faults with the cars offered for sale?? ."

    To Which E replied:


    I think you are saying that's not what was said nor implied by YOU. I felt it was certainly implied in X-Ray's statement.

    I know that this has been a confusing thread... but I think you have confused my Post, with anything you originally wrote, and I believe that within your farther responses you are intermixing comments about the cars and comments about the sellers.... then farther compounding the discussion by assigning motives to the people that made comments...

    You did have a few clear statements - to which I agree.



    But I hasten to add - I said NOTHING about the sellers, nor the discussion related to the sellers motives..


    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Now wait a minute here. Where do you get the idea that I support someone MISREPRESENTING a car for sale in an effort to maintain my financial interest in my own car!?!?! Holy cow. I think you read something into my post which is not correct, as there was no implication. Please re-read my prior post, particularly the section about other forums.

    Here we have a car that looks good in pictures, and instead of saying the usual "needs better pics of floors, rockers, battery tray etc." or actually (heaven forbid) ASK THE SELLER what's up with the chrome, we immediately assign it as suspicious. And then we AGAIN presume it potentially fraudulent by somehow assigning cars in Pennsylvania as being suspicious--As if PA ZCar owners can't have a well-cared for car! What the heck!?!? That auction has been BRANDED as a potential scam, and if someone cruises here to look if there's discussion about it, will likely be scared away. Or try to pay less than what it's actually worth. That's not fair to the seller.

    We should strive to be critical and NEUTRAL when discussing cars, unless we KNOW something for a fact that is being "hidden," with the basic understanding that caveat emptor is the correct approach in all potential sales.

    Of COURSE I have an interest in seeing cars sell for better prices. But more to the point, I think some of our discussions have been holding DOWN prices, subsequently preventing some great cars from reaching a fair value. It is certainly fair to point out problems with a car, but presuming nefarious intent can be bad, especially without evidence, and keeps the resale value of otherwise good cars down. Caveat emptor? of course! But don't belittle a car (and by extension someone's efforts to make it presentable) just because you can. Maybe I assign too much value to our commentary on this forum, but I think the tone of our posts vis-a-vis cars for sale on public sites can influence the final outcome.

    Just be fair to buyers and sellers. What's hard to understand about that?

    PS....Use of the term "tear down," as I used it here primarily implies intent to denigrate the motives or character of someone or something. One can certainly be critical while not engaging in character-based discussions.
    Last edited by xray; 02-24-2008 at 10:59 AM.
    Steve

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  30. #30
    Registered User Oiluj's Avatar
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    I can tell you I was surprised to see what 240's were fetching in the market when I started looking last September, but then I'd been out of touch with Z values for many years. I think recent collector & auction interest in S30's especially early 240Z's is influencing prices.

    When shopping for my Z I found the average price for a nice "driver" with minor cosmetic issues or minmal rust issues was about $6K to $8K for a California / Arizona car. From what I saw, a "really nice", rust free 240Z ran from $9K to $14K.

    Without a very complete inspection, I would not pay that much for a "snow-belt" car, or one from the post hurricane Katrina area. Call me picky, but once salt gets into those enclosed body sections, it's tough to clean-out and will lead to problems.

    That said, I'll see for certain just how "rust-free" my Calif / Arizona car really is after media blasting... I already know of 2 small areas with a bit of surface rust (only), under the battery and a little on the driver's floorboard.

    I'll have $22-$24K in mine before I'm done and hope that in 7-8 years I'll break-even on cost to market value. Excluding financial duress, I have no intention of selling my Zcar until I can't drive anymore. Of course that could be tomorrow or the year 2031, (assuming I stop driving at age 75)...

  31. #31
    Supporting Member EScanlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Remember the guy trying to sell a high-dollar Z a while back ranting about how we Z enthusiasts are cheap b*****ds and aren't willing to pay what these cars are worth? He wasn't pleasant about it, but the gist of his rant was that we Z people are holding down the values on our own cars.

    And you know what? Maybe he was right...
    Quote Originally Posted by ktm View Post
    Tony D has been saying this for a while, and I agree. It seems as though a majority of S30 owners bought an S30 to begin with because they were inexpensive. They are used to the parts being inexpensive and try to do everything on a budget. This is not necessarily a bad thing...snip...
    Good point, but I'll bet that many are pleased in the overall increase in value of the car, even though that may not have been their primary intent in buying it; while being displeased in the extra expense of refreshing and maintaining it.

    That is, they bought the car because they had a longing for the car and not because it was inexpensive. They were able to realize a wish/dream earlier than later because the prices were low.

    But it seems that Arne agrees with me in that it is our own outspoken attacks against sellers, etc. that MAY cause people to shy away from buying them. After all being a member of a community where the backstabbing, and insults are so open....why would you want to be involved?

    Quote Originally Posted by xray View Post
    ...snip...
    We should strive to be critical and NEUTRAL when discussing cars, unless we KNOW something for a fact that is being "hidden," with the basic understanding that caveat emptor is the correct approach in all potential sales.

    It is certainly fair to point out problems with a car, but presuming nefarious intent can be bad, especially without evidence, and keeps the resale value of otherwise good cars down. Caveat emptor? of course! But don't belittle a car (and by extension someone's efforts to make it presentable) just because you can. Maybe I assign too much value to our commentary on this forum, but I think the tone of our posts vis-a-vis cars for sale on public sites can influence the final outcome.
    ...snip...
    One can certainly be critical while not engaging in character-based discussions.
    Steve...KUDOS!!!

    Those are my thoughts almost to a "t".

    If I may, I would ammend the first sentence I bolded to:

    We should strive to be critical and FACTUAL when discussing cars offered up for sale, identifying obvious discrepancies and omissions, while remaining completely NEUTRAL with regards to a seller's intent. Only if we KNOW of something for a fact that is being "hidden" INTENTIONALLY, would we question those motives. Always with the basic understanding that caveat emptor is the correct approach in all potential sales.

    The second sentence I bolded is again very prominent in my involvement with this forum and threads. As Carl has mentioned, I also feel that people who are interested in these cars do a simple Google or Yahoo or some form of internet search with "240 Z", or "240Z" as the search criteria and you'll see THIS site and Z-Home as the first and second links returned. The Wikipedia has come up first a couple of times I've searched. The point behind this is that it behooves us to act civilly, respectfully and openly inviting to new members. Yes, we welcome folks once they do show up. But if one were to search for "for sale" as the search criteria once on this site, you'd be buried with unacceptable commentary.

    As your last sentence points out...criticizing a car's flaws need not be a character bashing exercise.

    MY 2˘
    E

  32. #32
    DeesZ (John) DeesZ's Avatar
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    "As your last sentence points out...criticizing a car's flaws need not be a character bashing exercise."
    Nicely put... and well worth repeating, E....

    I extend my sincere apologies to board members and visitors for being an early contributor to this thread which has been perceived as a crucifixion of an eBay seller (or sellers in general). To that I plead "mea culpa". Do not read any sarcasm into this, because there is none intended. My earlier intent was not in that direction, although, after re-reading it, I can see how it was taken that way by some. I also feel bad that the ensuing debate is causing friction among 'family' members here on the board. Let's say that DeesZ threw a can of kerosene on the smoldering embers, and the explosion that followed will hopefully leave no permanent scars or pain among us. Written communications are to a large degree disadvantaged - they are quite prone to being taken the wrong way (not as intended by the writer), and this whole thread seems to be taking advantage of our disadvantage. Let's not beat each other up over this. There have been some valid points brought up by some contributors, no matter what 'side' one is on. Food for thought for all....

    As a ten-year veteran of eBay, I have (in the past) done public paid seminars on eBay, selling ethics, and fraudulent behavior. Of late, most of my non-selling activities have been geared towards setting up new sellers and positioning them to succeed in that environment. I am an individual who supports his habits (240Z, etc., not drugs) financially with eBay-related income, and I find myself being very critical of listings with scant information. I tend to disclose everything that I can with respect to my listings - in writing and with huge amounts of pictures - and I guess I think everyone else should do the same. It's not fair for me to publicly impose my standards on someone else, is it? I recall Arne saying in another thread that he feels that he over-discloses flaws, perhaps to his detriment. Well, so do I, but it leads to a good seller reputation and higher levels of credibility (and no returns or disappointed customers). I guess I value that more than some of the alternatives. I have stated "Let the buyer beware." many times here on this board in English and Latin. I should have said that in my earlier post and better explained my reasonings for that feeling.

    As for car values, I am pleased to see them on the rise. This is long overdue in my opinion.

    Forgive my transgression. I shall try to do better expressing myself in the future.
    Last edited by DeesZ; 02-24-2008 at 03:02 PM.
    See my Gallery .....
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    Every time a nice car shows up on Ebay, this forum tears it apart. Can anyone show me a thread about a car for sale where the general concensus is that it is a nice car? I haven't seen it since I have been here.

  34. #34
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    Actually John, it's Steve that deserves the credit for that gem. I simply paraphrased and repeated it. His succinct statement is a condensed version of my verbose ramblings.

    As far as what Stickerman says, that is exactly why I rambled so vehemently.

    I don't think we've thrown gas on a fire as much as had an open and somewhat lengthy diatribe that needed to be had. This forum IS a very prominent source of information on the Z, mostly the "early" 240 series, but more and more encompassing the 260, 280 and even a very few of the 300 owners. Heck, we've even seen a few 350 owners comment here and there.

    This site as a result, kind of like Noblese Obligé, MUST hold it's content to a higher level of content than any other site. Because of the fact that this site is in the forefront of the search engines results, it WILL receive the lion's share of the traffic from the searches. That traffic is what the advertisers who promote their wares on this site count on. Advertisers for the most part, and search engines to a small degree are what help offset the cost of running this forum...I would presume. The actual finances of the forum are Mike's business. But I'll bet that ONE little lawsuit from a disgruntled seller with a sharp lawyer could bring this whole thing down faster than we could apologize. Not saying that would necessarily happen, but the innuendo's have a tendency to get bigger and bolder.

    That is why I spoke up as I did.

    E

  35. #35
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    Default Just for the heck of it...

    I'm posting the eBay ad for the '73 240 I bought in 2005. The seller represented the car accurately. There were a few minor issues such as the horn button was broken and not firmly attached. There was an exhaust leak not mentioned in the ad as well. Both of these were pointed out by the seller when I went to pick up the car. It's no big deal to me really.

    I drove it from Burbank, CA. to the San Francisco Bay Area. Other than being hard to start one time after stopping for a bite to eat, it ran fine all the way home.

    Anyway, comments are welcome, even negative ones. I'm glad I bought the car which is all that really matters!

    Peace!
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    CZCC-14107
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    Mar 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area - Calif, USA
    Posts
    130

    Default Oh yeah...

    This pic was also included in the ad. It did have some rust....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

  37. #37
    Z Addict yor5150's Avatar
    Member ID
    CZCC-14107
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area - Calif, USA
    Posts
    130

    Default I stand corrected

    Quote Originally Posted by yor5150 View Post
    There was an exhaust leak not mentioned in the ad as well.


    I just re-read the ad. The exhaust leak was mentioned. My bad.
    Owning a Z = Longtime Dream Come True...
    (Was) All Stock 1973 240Z eBay purchase in Oct 2005.
    HLS30-163770, 5 spd, # 918 Orange w/Black interior
    1971/72 ??? 240Z HLS30-15987 (donor car - R.I.P. July 09)
    1974 260Z Stock, Orange ext/Black Int. Oct 2007. Sold June 20, 2008
    1976 280Z - FEB 2011
    Card-carrying member of the RSPBRC (Rear Spindle Pin Bushing Replacement Club)

  38. #38
    DeesZ (John) DeesZ's Avatar
    Member ID
    CZCC-9676
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania - Millersburg
    Age
    69
    Posts
    745

    Default

    Thanks, again, EScanlon....
    I agree, holding ourselves to a higher level of content will be good for everyone. Would it benefit us to consider a kind of 'format' for posting observations and comment about eBay (or any other venue) cars? This, if done well/properly, would provide an actual service to those who come to this site to seek advice. Perhaps something that would simply focus on "questions that I would ask before purchasing", and break it down into several categories.... Somewhat as done on the Zhome.com site (thank you, Carl.....)
    Body, Body-Electrical, Drive Train, Engine, Suspension/Brakes/Wheels /Tires & Steering, Misc., etc.....
    See my Gallery .....
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=9676

    John

    CZCC #9676 - IZCC #14985
    1972 - HLS30-84646 - My driver - matching #'s - Nice ride
    1973 - HLS30-132236 - RIP - Reduced to boxes of spare parts in the garage

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