Any advice on Z's?

[AmayaMeda]

Hello everyone!
I'm looking to buy a Z soon (as soon as I sell my silly PT Cruiser), but I've hit a bit of a dilema. I was hoping maybe you experienced owners out there could offer some advice. I'm having trouble deciding between a pre-smog 240Z, or a 280Z (maybe '82-'83 turbo).
From what I've come to understand, I could do anything I wanted to a 240, but until I can afford to modify or convert the engine, I'm looking at worse gas mileage than the 280, and not nearly as much Go-Go. The 280zx on the other hand, gets better gas mileage, and has more power, but there are a lot more limitations on what I can do to it. I've also been told that the carb engine is easier to work on than the fuel injected. I'm just learning how to work on cars, so less complicated is a plus.
So am I mistaken on anything? Can anyone offer any imput? I would REALLY appreciate your wisdom on the matter.
Thanks!

[hls30.com]

Having owned several of each...
240Z most fun, easiest to troubleshoot and needs the most tuning-with seasons changes.
280Z less tuning, more comfortable and though not as much fun, still fun.
280ZX a 1980s 2 seater Cadillac with more oomph! dependable, comfortable, quick, but unless you have a 3:90 equiped version or a turbo, not nearly as fun to drive as either a 280Z. Sorely lacking in precise handling regardless of power.
Will

[sblake01]

You'll get many opinions here. I think they're all (240-260-280Z and 280ZX) in the same basic gas mileage range, stock vs. stock. Having owned or been involved with a few of them myself, I'd say the ease of troubleshooting statement is a matter of perception and familiarity as I don't find the EFI cars to be any more challenging than the carbed ones. As they progressed through the years, they did get heavier and less precise in handling, as Will said but a 280Z can be set up to be as much 'fun' to drive as a 240Z. Remember, this is all my opinion. I personally wouldn't own a ZX. Stock, they (280ZX) don't handle as well as my 810 2dr.

[DeMoore]

I agree with Stephen, any of the 70-78 Z's are considered the classics; just the way it looks makes me want to keep spend money on it's restoration. I did own an '86 once, and it was great for tearing around in, but it needed lot's of $$$ and I couldn't see myself spending a whole lot on it. I get out if my 78 after a drive and I'll stand there for a few minutes just looking at it. Most people on this site have 1st generation Zs, hence the name of the site, but any Z is welcome around here. Good luck with your choice, keep us posted!

[Zs-ondabrain]

Personal preference is Everything. I've drivin all of them and the above comments are all dead on. ZX=mini cadillac, 240Z (I own a 70')=not as much zip (stock) but easily upgradable, 260Z=More power but heavier car=not as much fun as the 240, 280=fuel injected more power, heavier still, not a 240Z.

I obviously LOVE the 240Z's, They are well beyond the Emissions tests and are more rare. Rare=harder to find parts but once you get all of them, the resale can be off the chart. I don't think I'll ever sell my 240Z but I'm not beyond taking a but load of cash for it. I have almost all the creature comforts of a ZX but weighs alot less.

As for fuel milage, I have triple webers on the stock 170,000 mile engine, and I get about 27MPG on the freeway.

Let us no what you finally decide on and Welcome to the best Knowledge base for your Z, which ever you decide on.

Dave.

[e_racer1999]

first for me is a 240Z
second would be a '75 280Z (smog exempt in CA and EFI; easy for a turbo swap)
third would probably be a turbo 280ZX

as mentioned previously, personal preference. number one: get one with as little body work needed as possible!!!! engine problems are relatively cheap. trust me, you'll agree.

[waynekarnes]

the 240z is basically a tin can on wheels compared to your pt cruiser.

no power steering, rides and steers like an old truck.

noisy on the highway, rattles on the street.

you will find that until you drop the tail lights replace the seals, replace the lift gate seals ( on the lift itself and the body ) replace the seals around the side marker lights, that everytime you drive with the windows down, exhaust gas is gonna come in the cabin.

the hoses for the charcoal cansister and gas fume recover system are most likely gonna need to be replaced. you will get wiffs of raw gas and wonder where it's coming from.

as a pt cruiser driver, you are unfamilar with a choke and carbs along with a low voltage ignition system. on a cold morning, you can not hop in a 240z turn the key and expect to jump on it to get into traffic. it needs to be warmed up a bit, the choke set.

the wipers and heater do not work as well as your pt cruiser.

if you drive for any distance with the high beams on, most likely a fuse is gonna blow.

there are often wiring issues under the dash and melted fuse boxes. for what ever reason the nissan engineers ( datsun ) decided to cheap out and ran all the car's electrics through the amp meter. they used a rivetted fuse holder. resistance at the fuse box causes the wiring to over heat.

being as they were trying to keep the car light and cheap, little attention was paid to rust proofing. they also used a flap as a seal over the front of the area of the doors where they close under the fenders. when that flap dries out, water runs into the cabin. that water causes the floors to rust out.

drain holes plug on the bottoms of the front fenders, they rust out below the 240z script. water and dirt get into the rocker panels below the doors, the rocker panels rust. some how water gets into the dog leg area of rear fenders directly behind the doors. rust there as well. where the lift gate meets the flat panel of the body where the latch is located, that flat panel rusts. datsun/nissan had a tray with a drain hose that went under the battery. most back yard mechanics tossed that tray and set the battery directly on the shelf. acid from battery ate holes in the shelf as well as the firewall below it ( sometimes even melted the wiring harness running on the frame rails ) speaking of frame rails, they are another place to look for rust.

california cars are not exempt from these rust problems. they just take longer to show up here.

brakes on the 240z are no where as good as the brakes on your pt cruiser. brakes on my 86 nissan pick up are better than the brakes on the 240z.

headlights dim when you turn the heater fan on. if previous owners were door slammers , you may find the doors pop open as the metal latches on the body need to be replaced as well as the white plastic guides that line the doors up to the latches.

car will wander if the bushings on the rack and pinion steering system are worn or loose.

the wipers and blinkers won't work if the contacts in the switch stalks are worn out.
most of the ignition locks are worn out and just about any 2 sided key will turn the lock, or the lock won't turn at all and the anti theft bolt won't move to release the steering.

rear brake wheel cylinders are getting harder and harder to get and if someone hosed up the install, the rear brake shoes will drag on the drums. some times locking up the rear brakes.

the heater valve is in a poor location, if the coolant isn't every couple years, acid builds up and eats through the valve, causing coolant to leak into the cabin.

oh back to door slammers, the guide and the window regulator may get knocked off the rack and the plastic roller inside the door that braces the window may get bent or broken. door glass rolls up or down crooked or is difficult to roll up or down.

in the front, below the windshield is a cowl cover plate with slotted vents. the factory had customer complaints of rattles. the fix was to put a cushion between the body and the cowl cover. another bad idea. cushions tend to stay wet, rust forms and bubbles up from the back side to the top under the paint.

when fools don't change the coolant, crap tends to collect in the adapter for the lower radiator hose at the block. this limits the flow of coolant through the radiator. lots of over heating issues can be attributed to this. this often leads to seepage between the head gasket between the block and head near the number 6 cylinder. if things get worse, a blown head gasket, same location. other factors also contribute to blown head gaskets. most often is carbs set too lean combined with a heavy footed driver using low grade gas.

what do you think ? sounds as if i don't care for the 240z ??? far from being correct. i have owned 5 of em. currently have two 1972 240z cars in my driveway, one is the famous "Bambi Killer". i love the 240z. i have busted my knuckles, shredded skin, cracked my head, burned myself working on 240z cars. my 19 yr old son has caught the bug from me.

if i were to sell my 240z cars, i know i would buy another one. once they get under your skin, is just the way it is.

but, i am no fool. i know what i am getting. know the ugly side hidden in the beauty of the 240z.

you say you know nothing about cars. i want you to know what you are getting into if you buy a 240z.

i don't want you biting off more than you can chew if you buy a lesser 240z. a cheap 240z is not a cheap 240z. it will need lots of repairs. i have tried to point out the most obvious problems. if you have limited skills and no money, the cheap 240z will break your heart. because no matter how much of a beater your 240z may be, you will fall in love with it. you will forgive it faults and dump tons of money into it to prove it.

f you are looking for a car that is gonna leave a smile on your face everytime you drive it or just back it out the driveway and park it on the street, the 240z is the ticket for that .


in the los angeles area, figure on spending around 5 grand for a decent driver. find a club member in your area that for the cost of a combo meal at jack in the box that will be willing to go with you to check out a 240z that you are interested in.

don't get sucked in by shiny paint. shiny paint hides a lot of evil.


remember every 240z is at least 35 yrs old. it will need maintenance. things that haven't been replaced by previous owners are on the edge of needing to be replaced. the little tang on the exterior door handle is just waiting to break off at the worst time and the door won't open.

do you have a friend that is good with a wrench ?? a place to work on the z ?

if you don't and don't have 5 grand for a decent 240z, i might be thinking of the 280zx,

it is not the thrill a 240z will give you, but it is a more modern car. more what you'd be used to driving the pt crusier. and still has the basic lines of the 240z.

you will spend less for a nicer 280zx than you will for a 240z.

they all suck for gas mileage. especially a 280zx with an automatic.

expect around 16 to 17 around town in 240z with 4 speed. around 22 to 24 at constant 65 mph. back in 81, my 79 280zx GS with 5 spd got 13 to 17 around town, 28 on the freeway. swap a 5 speed into the 240z and expect around the same mpg city and 24 to 26 or so on the freeway.

i am in san jose, still see lots of 240z's used as daily drivers. i see on avg 3 to 4 a day being driven in commuter traffic. i am sure is the same in fullerton. check local craigslist, get a trusted car friend to go check it out with you ( or a club member ). take the list of faults i wrote above with you.

tell you what, if you have at least the 5 grand. buy a 240z, drive it for the summer, see if you like it, if not your cup of tea ... has no power windows, no airconditioning, thin seats, suspension is tuned for the car guys of the early 70's late 60's. if it didn't add to performance it had no place on a car guy's car.

federal safety standards and tightening emission standards began to tame the 240z.

to increase sells datsun/nissan started building to non car guys. building for the gold chain wearing disco dancing crowd. progression, the 280z, the 280zx and the flattened 300zx.

in 1990 they got it right again with the car guys by revamping the 300zx. although they look like a cross between a fiero and a saturn, get behind the wheel and you will know what i mean about it being a car guy's car.

that said, none of the other z series cars have the heart and soul of a 240z. the 240z is the only true datsun/nissan z car.

for your own soul, maybe buy a 240z, buy a nice one. drive it for the summer.

if you find you miss all the good stuff that goes with a modern car and like the lines of the 240z, then sell the 240 and buy a 280zx. it still sort of looks like a 240z and is a modern car with creature comforts.

again, don't buy a 240z beater fixer upper or one in need of small repairs ( no such thing ), it will break your heart.

this may not be the advice you were looking for. but is as honest as i can be with you.

my son's 1st daily driver was a 1990 300zx. he wanted a 240z. he wasn't ready for a 240z.

right now he's in a '95 honda civic. he could not afford the gas for the 300zx and needed a back seat. he doesn't turn his own wrenches ( has the talent but not his thing ). unless i get in a financial bind, he will end up with The Bambi Killer. but right now, is not the right car for him.

occasionally he drives the Bambi Killer and he smiles from ear to ear everytime. as much as he loves that car, he understands as a daily driver, he's better off in the civic.

these are things you need to consider.

no one can make up your mind for you.

your money, spend it anyway you want. the 240z is a machine. an old machine. remember this and go in with eyes open, see all the faults, search for them and the don't let your emotions lead you into buying a junker just because it is a 240z.


wayne

[Bart Hoedemaker]

That's alot of information here!

[Carl Beck]

Wayne - Amen! I am copying that reply and I'm going to send it to people from now on...

I'll only add that IMHO the PT is the spiritual successor to the 240-Z. WHAT???

Yes it is - if you look at the spec.'s the two are very close:
- Wheel Base
- Weight to HP ratio
- 1/4 mile times
- stopping distance 60-0

Both had lots of FUN in mind when designed
Both had lots of UTILITY for the owner
Both had lots of personality
Both sat record sales
Both offered bargain pricing for the total package of Fun and Utility in their time
Both had "enthusiasts" Clubs formed around them, and lots of aftermarket stuff created for them
Both broke the mold for their time

While the Datsun 240-Z comes as close to being the "Perfect Car" as I have even seen - no one car will cover every drivers "desires" and their "needs".

I'll offer an alternative path - - Keep the PT for daily use, reliability, comfort - - and find a great Datsun 510 to drive for FUN. The 510 will cost far less today than a 240-Z, but it will give you a basis for learning the mechanical side of older cars, while giving you a car that can be make to handle as well or better than the 240-Z. Yes the 510 is a boxy little sedan, but has great heart, is really fun to drive and the people that own/drive them fall in love with them just as hard as the 240-Z owners do..

If money is a factor - start with the Datsun 510...

FWIW,
Carl B.

[Sailor Bob]

I believe the 77 or 78 5 speeds are still a very good buy. One can be had for less cash outlay and in spite of the 240 types opinions (which I completely respect) I believe it is a better buy than the 240. The EFI is relatively service free and the car overall has a number of refinements over the 240Z. It also seems easier to find one that is not rust held together with paint
The bumpers are probably the biggest complaint that people have but that is a symbol of the time period these cars represent. As to the heavier weight - well if you intend to upgrade the engine to a north american V8 the heavier chassis pays off. You will not be crying over it - the cars performance although slightly less spirited is still a kick in the pants.
I've had both the 240 and the 280 neither is cheap on gas, but they are both a pleasure to drive and they are both beautiful to look at.
For an entry car in the intial body style Z - My vote is for the 77-78 5spd 280Z

[waynekarnes]

Wayne - Amen! I am copying that reply and I'm going to send it to people from now on...

HEAVY praise from the person i consider to be one, if not the most knowledgeable Z person i have the pleasure to associate with.

thank you !!!

I'll only add that IMHO the PT is the spiritual successor to the 240-Z. WHAT???

agreed ! right car at the right time in the right place. landed with a splash that inspired a love of cars again. what the public was hungry for.

inspired ford to restyle the mustang, gm's pending reintroduction of the camaro, chrysler to build the challenger, nissan to climb on the history of the 240z and toss the 350 into the ring.

without the pt and the new vw bug, none of those cars would be here.

back on point, the 280z is a fine car. thing is, is just inches away from being a 240z. a person that isn't happy in a 240z is not gonna be any happier in a 280z. this is why i'd recommend the 280zx over the 280z. has creature comforts not offered in the 240z or the 280z.

as Carl suggests, the 510 may be a better choice for a guy moving from a pt as it is has a back seat, and a trunk. the 1600 cc engine is almost bullet proof. has fully independent rear suspension. the 5 and dime website offers plenty of support. they are fun to drive and offer more every day use than the 240z.

my son wanted one, we looked at a few. oddly enough, here in the bay area ( san jose, frisco ) the 510's go for more than the 240z cars do. possibly because they are more user friendly. can haul more stuff, including friends and family in em and they blend in with traffic. for my son, to buy him a 510 as nice as the '95 2 door civic, i would have to had spent another 1500 dollars and it would not be anywhere as reliable as the "bolt the hood shut" honda.

no matter what you decide, try and find one that is as close to stock as possible. the wiring harness has not been chopped up, idiots have not added their personal touches using bailing wire and adapted parts from a honda or a volvo to keep the hood closed. you will spend a small fortune correcting these "custom" touches.

oh the 510's are worse than the 240z when it comes to the doors staying closed. a whole lot worse !!! fortunately the latches for rear doors on the 4 door are the same as the front or the 2 doors, you can swap em.

you know Carl, you just put a bug up my backside to get a 510. AND i know 99% of the evils a 510 comes with !!!

why do you do these things to me ???

[Oiluj]

Wayne - I'll only add that IMHO the PT is the spiritual successor to the 240-Z. WHAT???

IMHO, not even close. When I was drinving across Arizona bring my car back to California, a young guy in a PT Cruiser kept trying to get me to race him.

In my exuberance of driving my new "old" 240Z, I finally gave in... It wasn't even close and I left him in the dust. I slowed down and as he passed gave me the 1 digit salute. I just smiled at him and let him go.

From that point on I drove like the old, conservative guy that I pretend to be...

[AmayaMeda]

A HUGE thanks to everyone for their opinions and their time! And a special thanks to Wayne for the downsides. It's great to hear the bad news from someone who still loves the car despite it all. I will NOT be looking for a Z until I have that list MEMORIZED(or get my printer working... heh).
As far as physical comforts of a new car, I'm really not too worried about that. My first car was a Jeep Cherokee, with only power steering. I've driven my boyfriend's rusty old mighty mouse(Max), and I don't mind the rack and pinion steering too much. The lack of cargo space will be new and possibly troublesome, but I never have space for people in the PT anyways, because it's full of junk 24-7.
Oh, and as far as the PT Being a spiritual successor? HAH! That's hilarious! My PT goes from 0 to 60 in about ten minutes(0k, maybe 10 seconds... on a downhill), and trying to pass people on the freeway is often more dangerous than it's worth. I get passed by angry soccer moms in minivans. It's turning is mediocre at best, and I only get about 18mpg, 20 TOPS. No joke! Of course, mine is also non-turbo.

Alright, I have another question if you would'nt mind. I'm seeing a fair few 240z's with 280 engines in them. I's this getting the best of both worlds? Or is this just asking to be buying someone elses franken-beast? Is it worth taking the chance? Or would it be smarter to do a conversion myself If/when I'm ready, sure and knowledgeable?

[Carl Beck]

Oh, and as far as the PT Being a spiritual successor? HAH! That's hilarious! My PT goes from 0 to 60 in about ten minutes(0k, maybe 10 seconds... on a downhill), and trying to pass people on the freeway is often more dangerous than it's worth. I get passed by angry soccer moms in minivans. It's turning is mediocre at best, and I only get about 18mpg, 20 TOPS. No joke! Of course, mine is also non-turbo.

I'm sorry to hear that your PT is in such sad shape. Nonetheless, if we review all the Road Tests of both the PT and the 240-Z, you'll see that when compared "new car" to "new car"... they are in fact very close.

We'll have to check farther - but I think the PT actually has a lower Cd than the Z as well.

----------------------240-Z------------------- PT                             



0-60 - - - - -- - - - 8.7 (R/T) - - - - - - -  8.5 (CD)



1/4 mile           17.1 (R/T)              16.6 (MT) 16.7(CD)



Top Spd..          115 (tested)         112(tested-CD)

Engine            2.4L/150hp             2.4L/150 (MT)



60-0 brake         151ft. (SCG)                     120ft.

70-0         185 ft (CD-Street Mod)             186(CD)



Lat. G                   0.73(RT)                   0.78(CD)



Ground Clearance         6.5"                     6.5"



Fuel Capacity           15.9 gal                  15gal

CD=Car & Driver
RT=Road & Track
SCG=Sports Car Graphic
MT=Motor Trend

Different Road Tests done by different mag.'s reported slightly different results - but that was true for both cars. The above are just typical examples of the reported spec.'s.

The PT was heavier, had FAR more emissions and safety equipment - but the efficiency of the Front Wheel Drive helped off-set some of the weight and emissions/safety penalties.

Actually the two cars separated by 31 years - were very close in terms of their target performance ranges..

The in-line six and lighter weight in the Z does give it an advantage in mid-range speed performance..

FWIW,
Carl B.

[sblake01]

Alright, I have another question if you would'nt mind. I'm seeing a fair few 240z's with 280 engines in them. I's this getting the best of both worlds? Or is this just asking to be buying someone elses franken-beast? Is it worth taking the chance? Or would it be smarter to do a conversion myself If/when I'm ready, sure and knowledgeable?

It's not so much 'the best of both worlds' as much as it's a larger displacement and more readily available engine. Many of the 240z's with 280z engines actually have 280zx engines. Much easier to find a 280ZX parts donor. Also, the majority of those engine swaps are done without the 280z/zx fuel injection and attending electronics.

[AmayaMeda]

Yeah, I've heard some horror stories of conversions that look like an industrial arts and crafts project: missing parts, dangerous wiring, etc. That's why I'm a bit trepidatious about buying a conversion that I really don't have the experience to understand. Ok, I think I've made up my mind as far as that goes. I guess I should really learn my way around a stock Z first.

As far as the PT vs. the Z, I can understand the reasoning, and you've got the numbers to prove it. It's just hard for me to imagine MY PT keeping up with a 240. Of course, I'm sure the fact that it was totalled (not by me!) and then salvaged didn't do much to improve the performance. Maybe if I'd driven it in it's prime, I'd feel a little different.

[Zs-ondabrain]

Hey Carl, What 240Z came with a 15.9 gallon tank. If I squeeze 14 gallons in, it's because I can touch the gas at the top of the filler.

Misprint or wrong Z?

Dave.

[Arne]

Dave, I've put 15+ in mine, when it was quite empty.

[glistx]

All this talk about the pt being as great of a car as the 240z is making me a little sick. I think the pt is almost as cool as a yugo, almost.

[full house]

go to 70 and 80's! they are consider as classic already!

[Zs-ondabrain]

OK but 15.9? Are they including the fuel in the lines, filter and float bowls?

I filled mine with 1 gallon to get me to the gas station after the rebuild in the winter of 06'. Got to the has station and was only able to put 14.02 gallons in, to the top of the filler. Am I missing something or do I have "One of those" Z's?

Dave.

[Jehannum]

OK but 15.9? Are they including the fuel in the lines, filter and float bowls?

I filled mine with 1 gallon to get me to the gas station after the rebuild in the winter of 06'. Got to the has station and was only able to put 14.02 gallons in, to the top of the filler. Am I missing something or do I have "One of those" Z's?

Dave.

How big is the dent in your fuel tank?

[EScanlon]

Sabrina:
I don't know this for a fact, but I've heard that if you have a "blown" 240 engine and buy a "short" block from the common engine sellers, they no longer sell 240's nor will they accept the 240 block as a core. Again, this was told to me and I don't recall whom nor if it is valid or not.

However, that would explain why some people might have exchanged a 240 for a 280 block.

While most people who do that swap would probably opt for the fuel injection etc, some might just want the additional engine displacement, or have replaced the short block.

FWIW
E

[ggarrard]

Replacing the 2.4 litre with a 2.8 in a 240Z is often just to gain the increased low-end torque the 2.8 offers. Switching from carbs to FI is a bonus that some think is worth the effort. Unless the 240Z has the original matching number engine it is difficult at first glance to tell the engines have been swapped unless it's a botch job.

Some even consider removing the FI for carbs in a 280Z for "improved response", but again it is a personal choice.

Because it's a straight swap between 2.4, 2.6 and 2.8 L8 engines, it should not be an issue when deciding to buy...unless you are seeking originality.

GWGarrard

[1973Z]

All this talk about the pt being as great of a car as the 240z is making me a little sick. I think the pt is almost as cool as a yugo, almost.

While some of the specs are close, I think we can come up with a more inspiring car to compare to the 240z! I think Nissan's 240SX is a closer comparison, albeit not a new car on the market today.

[1973Z]

Alright, I have another question if you would'nt mind. I'm seeing a fair few 240z's with 280 engines in them. I's this getting the best of both worlds? Or is this just asking to be buying someone elses franken-beast? Is it worth taking the chance? Or would it be smarter to do a conversion myself If/when I'm ready, sure and knowledgeable?

I would suggest you stay with an original car so you can start with a clean slate. Then you can decide what you want to change about it ...which might be nothing! Buy the most rust free car you can find/afford and I think you will be happy with your classic car. You will have to perform regular repairs on the car because it is an old car. But, when things are running right, the 240Z will place a permanent grin on your face!

[Bonzi Lon]

About the fuel cpapcity: My 73 FSM says on page GI-2, Fuel Tank holds 60 liters, 15 7/8 gal. U.S. Measure, or 13 1/4 gal. Imper. Measure.

My take on the discrepency: When I put a new sending unit in the tank I noticed at full empty the float was about an inch off the floor of the tank, I assume the suction tube would be about the same height so not to suck up tank trash. The amount left in the tank, after your pump has sucked it "dry" could be that extra gallon. I think the factory measurements were taken at bone dry. Just a thought.

Bonzi Lon

[Zs-ondabrain]

See now that makes a lot more sence to me. that extra gallon or more can really throw ya off. I've never run the tank completely dry and then filled it up to the top so it makes measuring out of the question.

Thanks,
Dave.

[AmayaMeda]

Hah! I just looked up the Yugo. Wow, I couldn't agree more. The SX is definitely a less... sickening comparison.