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Thread: aarrgghhh more rust :(

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Default aarrgghhh more rust :(

    didn't have a very good day today

    it all started with a quote from a guy i know to fix up the rust, straighten the body and paint the car.. the price was not pretty.. $15k!, and whilst i am sure there is a lot of work, and i am 100% certain it would be a perfect job, there is no chance i can afford that for paint!

    So my mate started trying to convince me that we should attempt bogging, sanding, priming etc.. on a small area and see how we go.. so i started sanding the POR to start work, and sections of POR started flaking off!

    It seems that the POR metal ready rust conversion hasn't worked completely.. it seems that 90% of the car may be ok, but there are some areas (the POR looks bubbled, and will chip right off), that the rust seems to still be active beneath the por. It is strange though, because there are areas right next to the effected areas, where the green remains of the metal ready still exist.. and the POR there seems to be working well.

    just when i thought i was getting somewhere!
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    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    argh feel for ya....

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    Registered User Noddle's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Have you looked into one of those cheap "super cheap" sand blasting kits,
    if you have a compressor, these work good on the rust, the only problem is sand goes every.

    also I use this stuff, converts rust back to metal, I haven't seen the POR stuff.

    15k to get the body done, you could almost buy 1/2 a new car for that..

    Nigel
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  4. #4
    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    yeah, i have a blasting kit, but i found it pretty useless.. just blew sand everywhere and didn't do much

    The whole car was basically stripped to bare metal chemicaly, and then i used the POR marine clean (which removes oil and crap), then their Metal ready (which is their rust convertor), then painted the car (with a brush.. as per instructions) with 4L of POR-15

    the por is meant to remove all the moisture in the metal, and effectively seal all the converted rust.. it seems to have worked in some parts.. but not others...

    yeah.. $15k is 1/10 of an R35 GTR (approx).... i think not
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    You have to use a big pressure pot sand blaster kit to have any real affect. You can see the one I used in the back of this photo. I found with por you really have to scrub the matel ready off with a rag until the panel is free from it all then let it dry in the sun, it kinda goes a little rusty (yellowish) after this and the por sticks really well. Where the por drips down and builds up I had to scrape off as it hadn't worked/stuck properly. My whole car has been done in por and if I could turn back time I would have only done the underneath and in the cabin where it was sandblasted. The por requires no marine clean or metal ready if sandblasted. My panels were dipped so they didn't need the metal ready either. The bits I used metal ready on are the bits I've had problems with. As it states in the instructions por sticks best to rusty surfaces, not clean panels it seems.

    15k is the going rate for rust fixing perfectly straight paintjobs these days. If it's just a paint job no rust work it shouls be about 5-7k. Do it yourself Kent you'll save about 8k I reckon.....this saving does not include all the hours labour you'll have to put in. If you've got a mate to help it will make a big difference in the time it takes. I had 2 months off inbetween jobs to get mine to the stage it is at now and it still needs a proper top coat. On some of my panels where the paint has chipped the por underneath has stayed put so it must have some good uses. Watch out sanding por as if it goes in your lungs it doesn't come out, you can die if spraying it without a mask.

    P.s I'm not voting for Por for president anymore, pm me your phone number if you want to have a more in depth chat about your options.

    Cheers Andrew
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    Registered User Noddle's Avatar
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    The el-cheap o sand blasting kit I used worked pretty good, but I did use a "half decent" compressor though,

    I suppose it come down to how much work you have to do,
    for me it was small panel work, corners in the doors, guards, around the window seal area etc.. I didn't strip the whole car.

    Nigel

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    yeah, i think i have come to the conclusion that if it is going to be done.. then i am going to have to do it myself.. time to start looking fro a decent gas MIG.

    I have emailed por, waiting on their reply, but i think if i go over the car and find all the dodgy bits, scrape them off then metal ready etc.. again then it will hopefully be ok (from what i have seen though it certainly doesn't support their claim it sticks better to rust than a metal ready treated surface.. see the pic attached.

    I am pretty sure with a bit of practice i should be able to repair the holes, and with a lot of bog and filler.. make it straight enough to cut down most of the labour.. i presume that the bodywork place would prefer me not spraying colour though so they can finish off the straightening etc.. i will certainly give the inside and the engine bay a go though..
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    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
    1970 Datsun 240Z HS30 #212

    www.project240k.com - project details on all my cars

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    Datsaholic Mr Camouflage's Avatar
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    I hit surface rust like that with the rust converter phosphoric acid stuff. Once it dries and converts the rust, I hit it with the wire brush attachment in the grinder. repeat as necessary till there's no rust left.
    www.nostalgictrio.com Skyline - Silvia - Fairlady Z
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    Your pic looks like you didn't take the loose rust off-and the POR didn't saturate the area. The order of events that I use are:
    1) wash/scrub the area with Marine Clean (I use a scotchbrite sponge to scrub flat areas with and a wire toothbrush for the corners/detail work.
    2) Rinse and let dry
    3) dampen with Metal Ready(I use a spray bottle and a paper towel to keep vertical areas weted-the paper towel sticks to the surface, and retains the metal ready)and keep wet. Any where I see black specks I scrub with a metal brush/pick.
    When the area is photoreactive(lightly blued) and no black specks are present, I wipe the area dry, then give it a thorough wipe down with warm water to remove the phosphate.
    when completely dry I apply POR15.
    I would rather over prep the area and have no issues than under prep the area and have issues-my first use of POR (on Z doors) had the same peeling you have. Following this procedure, I have had no issues-I have treated areas that are 12 years old that are still rust free and doing fine.
    As a suggestion, I have been using the POR clear for years, because it actually lets you see the surface to see it the rust is creeping back-no chance of hidden issues sneaking up-like with undercoating...
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 06-29-2008 at 07:29 AM.
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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Hi Will,

    i followed the majority of your steps with the only difference being i didn't scrub the marine clean into the bodywork..

    Very good point about the clear, i really wish i had gone with that.. but the distributors here convinced me that grey was the go, and clear was mainly for use as a fibreglass resin.

    The next car i do, i will follow your instructions to the T.

    got a lame responce from the POR distributer for australia saying i either didn't dry the surface properly (i didn't POR on the same day as cleaning), or that the por wasn't applied thick enough (i used a paint brush..). I thought POR was meant to magically absorb moisture from the metalwork?!

    there was definately no loose rust, you can see n the last photo that there are ares of converted rust right next to the bad rust..i could understand if there were patches by themselves..
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    Clear Por?? I had no idea it existed

    I thought that it just asorbs moisture from the air while drying and hardened, theres a lot I obviously don'y know about the stuff though.

    it might just be that some spots haven't been marine cleaned properly if you didn't scrub it on/off, it's that or you got a dud batch of por. I sprayed on the marine clean/metal ready with a degreaser gun and then scrubed off with water using a rag or one of those washing up pads with the rough green side attached to the sponge, only problem areas I've noticed so far are where it's too thick, dribbled, built up and looked like an aero bar but hard and black.

    I'd spray it in colour as it will be easier for the panelshop to spot the ripples and hi low spots while it has a shine. They will just use your solid colour top coat as a guide coat as they sand it all back. Buy the mig, it's another tool in the garage and you do have another K to finish once your finished your GTR replica.

    The welding side of the job is quite fun compared to the long hours on the sanding "torture" board you'll go through.

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Just as a small update.. i went out and bought a 180amp Lincoln gas MIG welder on the weekend.. and a big bottle of gas.. had a little play with it and it certainly seems a lot easier to weld with than the crappy "100"amp SIP gasless welder we were using before.

    we can do decent enough runs on 1.2mm thick steel.. but having a little trouble using thinner metals (0.6mm) without burning through.. lots more practice required i think before we start welding patches on the cars (atleast this way we can fix up the GT too).

    I really need to find a good howto book on preparing the car for paint, i know the ruff procedure, but it is the small details that make the job perfect that i am lacking (and of course they come with experience)

    anybody got any good suggestions or weblinks?

    on a similar note, i sent my engine covers and plenum off to get powdercoated.. can't wait to get them back and back on the engine, i think they should really look good (i am not going to post anymore details until i get some completed pics together )
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    How's the welding going?

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    slow, still practicing.. i will probably start cutting up the parts car soon to practice welding on the right size metal etc..

    I have spent the last couple of weekends pulling the RB26DETT apart, powedercoating the intake plenum, cam covers and front covers.. while it is apart i have put in a new water pump, belts and waiting for my set of HKS adjustable cams to turn up, along with an ATI balancer.. oh and just put a set of N1 cam's in there too

    also got the RB25DET gearbox fitted up today, so it is looking almost like a proper engine again

    did i mention i was trying my hardest to keep things standard to start with?
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    i will post some pictures of my "progress" up in the engine section
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by khughes View Post
    did i mention i was trying my hardest to keep things standard to start with?
    Standard, as if that would ever happen. Try to weld a cube together, it's good practice.
    I'm trying out a new rust paint for underbodys and inside the chassis rails. It's tectyl 506, I got 4lt from work. If it's good I'll send you the remainder as I only need to do inside the chassis rails on mine and can't see myself using more than 2 lts.

    Also bought por us standard tank sealer, I'll let you know how that turns out.

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