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Thread: Popping out of gear fixed

  1. #1
    Registered User SledZ's Avatar
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    Default Popping out of gear fixed

    After pulling out my transmission and taking the case off I figured out why it kept popping out of 2nd, 4th and reverse.
    The problem is that the shifter would hit the back of the "socket" and not allow it to fully engage and pop out of gear. You can see where the mark is on the shifter where it hits and the distance the gear is from fully engaging over the synchro, (a long ways off).
    I took apart another transmission as a test and used two shifters and it did it to both of them so I would think this could happen to a lot of them and hopefully fix them without taking them out of the car and to a tranny shop for nothing.

    I thought I would be able to adjust the shift "tang" that actually moves the actuaters to change gears but it is keyed....so I just ended up grinding the shifter where it hit, enough to make sure if fully engaged and now I can down shift and back my car up without it popping out!


    Hope this helps someone down the road.
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    First Z car - 72 240Z 52,850 miles

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    Registered User Oiluj's Avatar
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    Default

    Interesting.

    It's possible that the shifter was manufactured slightly "off" and that wear in the tranny finally got things to the point where it became a problem.
    Julio
    1972 240Z (in-progress, 95% complete)
    CZC# 15388

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    Thank you SledZ for the pic 1 as my shifter is "sloppy" and your pic shows the black ring that I think is broken in my tranny. There was an article in zhome on that and how to change to a brass ring. Now I have a better imagination .
    Rolf

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    Registered User darom's Avatar
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    Resurrecting the old thread. I just fixed my 5th gear by following Sledz's advice. The shifter wouldn't completely engage the gear - thus making the shifter pop back into neutral. Thanks Sledz!!!
    - 1976 280Z
    - 1967 Camaro RS

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    Default

    This is good to know. I knew there would be an interference problem at least in your two cases. Others don't seem to have the problem of popping out of gear. The problem is that the bottom portion of the shift lever below the pivot is around 5/16"(not certain off hand, I have pics in my gallery showing differences) longer than the lever from a 5 spd. Using the 4 spd lever in a 5 spd transmission makes the marks you show and it would interfere with full engagement.

    I'm glad you found the problem and the fix.
    things will only bother you if you let them.

    82 280zxt 4 spd auto
    73 240z--lsd, cv axles
    short throw info

  6. #6
    Registered User Werup's Avatar
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    Default Why i love this forum!

    SledZ thanks alot!! Ive just recieved a "new" shifter arm, so i can finish the conversion the PO started and get the cockpit to lock decent again.

    But when i popped in the lever, it started to pop out of gear, same gears as you describe Then i found this very nice thread with pics and everything, and did same, and now everything works well again

    Pictures of the levers, i am not sure what kind of lever the PO installed, but it is bend a bit to the side, and close to pretty straight up.

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    Datsun 240z - 03/1971 - HLS30 - 24410:

    So very stock at the moment..

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    This is a weird problem. Which lever are you using? The one on the right looks like it has a longer throw, and would be less likely to have the problem.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

  8. #8
    Registered User Werup's Avatar
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    Actually it is the other way around. The reason is that the longer lever under the pivot point will go deeper into the shifter body. That means a larger diameter lever will enter the hole in the shifter body at the same time the angle which the lever can be tilted before hitting will be getting smaller. I have tried to illustrate it on a drawing under, hope it makes sense, it is evening here in Denmark

    The red arrows show where the longer lever under the pivot point is interfering with the shifter body, where the shorter dosent have the same depth.

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    Best Regards Martin
    Datsun 240z - 03/1971 - HLS30 - 24410:

    So very stock at the moment..

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    I have to disagree. For the same angle and throw distance above the shift lever pivot point, the one with the longer arm beneath the pivot point will move the striking rod farther. It's the movement of the striking rod that determines how far the top will move. Or, in different terms, for the necessary movement of the striking rod, the lever with the longer throw will end up at a smaller angle.

    Anyway, glad you shared a solution. Still odd, since those parts were designed to work together. It implies that there are significant differences in striking rods, or something else, among the various transmissions.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Martin is correct, the rod on the right will have shorter throws.

    The shift rod movement required to engage a gear is a constant. The longer arm will move the shift rod more per degree, thus the shorter throws. This is how short-throw shifters typically work...
    2/74 260Z

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    Edited my error away. Just causing confusion.

    The reason there is a problem is because the actuating lever (what should that thing be called?) of the rod on the right sits too deep in the hole.
    Last edited by Zed Head; 10-03-2014 at 03:04 PM.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    Registered User Werup's Avatar
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    Zed Head: The longer the arm beneath the pivot point, the less you need to move the upper lever to travel the same lenght (try this with a pensil, and move the pivot point on the table).

    This is why a short shifter can be made either by shortening the upper arm, means that youll need to move your hand less to do the same (minor circle) or you have to increase the lever from the pivot point into the gearbox (as my case).

    EDIT:

    The lever one the left, will have a longer movement in the top, to reach the same stop at the gearbox. When i read your post im still not happy with it But it worked, so all is good
    Last edited by Werup; 10-03-2014 at 02:47 PM.
    Datsun 240z - 03/1971 - HLS30 - 24410:

    So very stock at the moment..

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    My apologies. I mixed up my terminologies, using throw for the actuating portion below the pivot, and for the lever itself.

    What I said wasn't backward in whole, it was internally inconsistent.
    Last edited by Zed Head; 10-03-2014 at 03:00 PM.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    My mistake in not being clear. I should have stopped with - what lever are you using?
    Last edited by Zed Head; 10-03-2014 at 02:59 PM.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    What I would really like to know though, is where the shifter with the longer actuator below the pivot point came from. All of the ones I've seen have about the same length. I'd like to have one that gives a shorter lever throw.

    Another edit - I'm going to guess that the rod on the left is a 240Z rod, and the one on the right is 280Z. I already have several of those. So no luck for me.
    Last edited by Zed Head; 10-03-2014 at 03:15 PM.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zed Head View Post
    That's what I said.

    Then you said it was the other way around. And showed that the longer arm was the one with the problem. Now you're saying the the longer arm is the way to go.
    Martin never implied the rod on the left would have a shorter throw, where did you deduce that from? I think you initially confused the issue when saying that the shifter on the right will have a "longer throw".
    2/74 260Z

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    No, I just wasn't clear on what the real problem was. That's why I said it was weird. As I noted, the real issue isn't the throw, it's how deep the longer arm (of the "shorter-stroke" shifter) sits in the hole. So grinding the top of the hole away is the correct solution.

    Edit - actually, I think that it's just too wide at the base of the shaft of the actuating portion. Because, assuming the same diameters up to the pivot point, the one with the longer actuating arm should end up farther away from the edge of the hole. That is the heart of all of my confusion.

    Edit again - actually it won't end up farther away at that point. It's an interesting exercise. Since the bottom of the actuator is moving the top of the striking rod cylinder closer to the top of the actuator, it makes sense that it would bind in that spot, since the bottom of the actuator moves the whole cylinder farther before the top of the actuator can get out of the way. Probably clear to many, I just didn't get it.

    It may be why, though the later ZX shifters have a spring loaded moveable pivot point. When you press down on a ZX lever you get a long actuator, then if you release the downward force the spring pushes the whole shift lever back up. That would give the benefits of a short-stroke (long actuator) lever without the binding problem described here.

    Sorry for cluttering up the thread. I did figure out some new things though. I might try a ZX shifter in my Z to see what happens.


    We're all in agreement on short-stroke shifters, and how they work.
    Last edited by Zed Head; 10-03-2014 at 04:06 PM.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    I just made the same swap. The straight-ish lever came with the 5spd and the one on the right with the longer lower portion was stock in my '72 240 4spd. Using the one from the 4spd gives a resulting shorter throw to shift the gears and mine doesn't make contact like has been described above. I also have the brass bushings in the shifter for the pivot and plastic at the bottom.
    John

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    I have three different levers, not including the one n my 76. A straight lever with the spring-loaded pivot, from an 83 ZX 5 speed I believe, a straight lever with no spring-loaded pivot, from an 80 ZX 5 speed, and a bent lever, from a 78 5 speed. They all have the notch marks, but the Zx levers both have long scrapes in addition.

    A person could probably spend some time fine tuning their shift mechanism. I'm surprised at the variations.

    The middle lever is the 280Z lever.
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    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    My '72 240 is longer from the pivot to the ball. No problems and a nice short shift!

  21. #21
    Registered User Werup's Avatar
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    Zed head: Im not sure on both my levers, the straight on the left was in the car, with the gearbox when i bought (importet from the states) and on the gearbox is says 280zx with yellow paint.

    The new s-shape lever is one i bought on ebay, it said nothing about year in the add :/
    Datsun 240z - 03/1971 - HLS30 - 24410:

    So very stock at the moment..

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