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Thread: New ZCCA Judging Rules

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    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Default New ZCCA Judging Rules

    http://www.zcca.org/downloads/ZCCA_J...anual_2009.pdf

    The ZCCA Judging Manual has been revised to October 2009.
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    Heh... still don't need a steering rack, tie rods, or lower steering column to get perfect points in the Engine and Body sections.

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    Is the annual ZCON the only event where the rules are used??

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    John, you're too funny. Those items fall in the common sense category! I mean, how are you going to get the car in place without them?

    Rich, any ZCCA sanctioned event representing any ZCCA member club can, and is encouraged to, use these rules. That's the intention of the data-base discussions. There was always the intention of being able to track cars and judges to use as a resource. And the ZCCA has the software for member clubs to use. I know the Tidewater club uses the rules for their annual spring event.
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    Too bad the revisions weren't highlighted so people would know what was changed and what wasn't.

    A summary of the significant revisions should be posted as well up front.
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    A wise old Z enthusiast once told me that no matter what you do someone is going to bitch. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to get out your old copy and read it, page-for-page, against the new copy. You will notice a considerable number of spelling, capitalization, and gramatical repairs. You will notice the 370Z added to the class structure. You will notice consistancy of terms (ie. modified and custom). You will notice language that addresses the later models (Z31, Z32, Z33) rather than emphasize the S30. You will notice a number of instances that were labeled to be explained later are now explained. And you will notice new wording about the stock class. At the direction of the ZCCA, an addendum is forthcoming that describes the scoring / point deduction system.
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    The scoring system is the only big thing that has trouble. Some judges write 3, as in 3 points out of 10, which really means 7 points deduction. Some write -3... These are usually judges that aren't really experienced.

    Another thing is the DD class. I don't have the luggage straps in, so I get points off? The same with aftermarket stereo. Some inexperienced judges score DD class like it was the stock class. That shouldn't be so, but by the time you get your judging sheet back it's too late. It's not polite to tell a judge he's wrong, either. Shows should be pleasant places.

    Hopefuly more people will read the guide and then everyone will be consistant.

    Chris-

    I haven't noticed much of a difference so far, but I'll get to read it more thoroghly over the weekend (it's raining in Ohio.)

    thxZ
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 10-08-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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    If I am interpreting the rules outlined on page 7, paragraph A, Stock Class, correctly, it appears that the statement, "Air-conditioning must be factory installed", now eliminates the dealer installed York units of the early series 1 cars as a stock item?

    Do the firewall holes for the A/C hoses need to be patched, or will rubber plugs be adequate for no point deductions? It will probably be a long time before a convention makes it back to the Western region where this could to be an issue for me, but I just thought I would ask for clarification for all who may be concerned.

    And kudos to 26th-Z for all his good work with the Z.C.C.A.

    Dan

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    Chris - constructive comments re: doing it right and not rushing a document out before it's ready is not, in my book bitching.

    To go out with perhaps the most important if not THE MOST IMPORTANT document that the ZCCA is known for without it being simple to understand is counter-productive.

    Not sure what the rush was since the next convention is more than 9 months away.

    And Chris, there are a large number of Z folks who do documents for a living and I'm sure a few would have volunteered to assist the ZCCA on this matter. You are not alone and you get to spread the blame around more.

    And as an aside, if you want to discuss "factory installed AC units", then include model and year, since you now have folks asking about AC units in S30s when in point of fact you where describing Zs from 1979 on.
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    Mr. Coffey could have also included clutch MC, wash bottle and pump, wiper motor, etc.

    Knowing and understanding the rules allows one to focus on just the parts that are actually judged.
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    You can't be focused too much, or you'll miss out on the categories that are judged in bulk, like the interior, engine area and paint. It is good enough though, to be used as an initial checklist, and the items on the list are things that are most likely to be missed when preparing the car or things that normally wear.
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 10-08-2009 at 07:46 PM.
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    After reading the new rules I'll say it this way. The changes are progress. Progress was made. Just like every living thing(even languages), changes will need to be made and should be expected.
    To quote my sons' favorite movie, "Just keep moving forward"! This version of the rules did that-great work! I wish I could have been in San Antonio-after reading these rules, more than ever!
    I read the pertinant part of the current version of the rules out loud every time I go to work on one of my Zs-the changes were readily apparent without a re-read, and I didn't see the first change that wasn't an obvious improvement on the last version.

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    There no "judged in bulk" items but rather very specific items that are clearly noted in the judging rules under each of the three major areas (engine, body, interior). Therefore you can have a dirty, missing or cracked washer bottle, steering coupler, or clutch MC and still score a 100 if all the items on the judging list are in perfect condition.

    The older rules (in place several years ago) left a few points (I believe it was 3) in each major area to be used by the judge as a "catch-all" to cover these non-listed items.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gnosez View Post
    Chris - constructive comments re: doing it right and not rushing a document out before it's ready is not, in my book bitching.

    To go out with perhaps the most important if not THE MOST IMPORTANT document that the ZCCA is known for without it being simple to understand is counter-productive.

    Not sure what the rush was since the next convention is more than 9 months away.

    And Chris, there are a large number of Z folks who do documents for a living and I'm sure a few would have volunteered to assist the ZCCA on this matter. You are not alone and you get to spread the blame around more.

    And as an aside, if you want to discuss "factory installed AC units", then include model and year, since you now have folks asking about AC units in S30s when in point of fact you where describing Zs from 1979 on.
    Good points, if they were based in fact. However six months of regular conference between three people with two others contributing are represented in this revision. The rush was last year, not now. The rules revision discussion started after the Cleveland convention and accelerated when the 370Z was introduced. People who do documents for a living contributed. That's why all the gramatical changes and consistancy of terminology. In point of fact, dealer installed air-conditioning has been eliminated for all models and all years. Stock is now 'stock'; as the car arrived from the factory in Japan with only the specific 'consumable' exceptions noted.

    I appreciate the comments, John, and I hope you understand that the revisions are not within the realm of your concerns.

    I should ad that one of the two contributing people I mentioned wrote the last revision.
    Last edited by 26th-Z; 10-09-2009 at 04:17 AM. Reason: More thoughts
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ-240z View Post
    If I am interpreting the rules outlined on page 7, paragraph A, Stock Class, correctly, it appears that the statement, "Air-conditioning must be factory installed", now eliminates the dealer installed York units of the early series 1 cars as a stock item?

    Do the firewall holes for the A/C hoses need to be patched, or will rubber plugs be adequate for no point deductions? It will probably be a long time before a convention makes it back to the Western region where this could to be an issue for me, but I just thought I would ask for clarification for all who may be concerned.

    And kudos to 26th-Z for all his good work with the Z.C.C.A.

    Dan
    Dan,
    Yea, the plugs didn't come from the factory...

    Fit and finish are still the focus of the rules, however. Nice rubber plugs would be appropriate. I would be upset if I got nicked five points for plugs.

    The talk / focus for the convention after Nashville is out West, perhaps featuring the Heritage Museum.

    Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnosez View Post
    There no "judged in bulk" items but rather very specific items that are clearly noted in the judging rules under each of the three major areas (engine, body, interior). Therefore you can have a dirty, missing or cracked washer bottle, steering coupler, or clutch MC and still score a 100 if all the items on the judging list are in perfect condition.

    The older rules (in place several years ago) left a few points (I believe it was 3) in each major area to be used by the judge as a "catch-all" to cover these non-listed items.

    Use the rules to your advantage....
    The cars are judged on the whole and not the individual parts. Come-on! You know that! You can't show up with a diseased washer bottle!
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    Please provide specific location within the rules that show where a judge would be allowed to take off points for say, a missing washer bottle, a dirty steering coupler or clutch MC.

    And no, the comment section doesn't count because of a rule change several years ago that took that option away from an individual judge.

    Not saying it's right or wrong, just saying you can't have it both ways. Either you follow what is written and contained in the rules or you start reading something into them that isn't there. That path takes you down the road of individual rule making and it was my understanding that consistent judging across the country was the idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnosez View Post
    And no, the comment section doesn't count because of a rule change several years ago that took that option away from an individual judge.
    Heh...That's a perfect example of reading something into the rules that isn't there. You'll have to show me where that one came from!

    John, what's your point? The rules don't call out every specific part for every specific model of every specific year. They are not intended to. You know that! Bottom line...show a dirty car and you're going to loose. Simple, clear, concise, everyone can understand. If you spend all your time trying to figure out how to bend the rules in your favor then what are you really doing?
    Last edited by 26th-Z; 10-09-2009 at 07:09 AM.
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    If the comment secion doesn't count, why are they still on the scoring pages? The comments are for just that purpose, but I've never gotten any, and comments are written after any deductions are made, so they don't affect the score. they are probably for a suggestion or two to help the owner do better the next time.

    gnose-

    There are some non-specific areas for "bulk" items. For example, on the engine sheet there are items like hoses, brake lines, paint finish and electrical. Those are all not very specific and broad-ranging items.

    The same thing occurs on the interior and exterior score sheets.
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 10-09-2009 at 07:21 AM.
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    Out of all this I see a very comprehensive book or document on preparing your S30 (for example) to be very-low-deduction car. There are books on doing show cars, but you'd think they are fairly general and aren't very specific to our needs, so you end up guessing at what the judges would look for (as usual.)

    thxZ
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 10-09-2009 at 07:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomoHawk View Post
    Out of all this I see a very comprehensive book or document on preparing your S30 (for example) to be very-low-deduction car. There are books on doing show cars, but you'd think they are fairly general and aren't very specific to our needs, so you end up guessing at what the judges would look for (as usual.)

    thxZ
    Some of the comments I've read thus far and in other similar discussions seem to indicate how difficiut an undertaking assembling that book/document would be. It would be just as subject to conjecture/discussion as the judging rules themselves.
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    You know when you have a great car, great prep skils for a show, and you love your car. Rules are a guide for improvement and yes, you are going to have poor judges at times. but if we battle "specifics" which will always be somewhat gray and its in every facet of life....you are missing the ride!

    I think the rules and how they were "cleaned up" and improved was great progress just like Will said. I am pleased to see people who still care enough to put forth the energy to continue to make improvements.

    After 10 years of using the ZCCA judging rules for my car I have learned alot about how to improve my car to factory stock. I used to get caught up in the scores I was receiving and when they changed so much because of judges were weak or strong I just started focusing on the comments. Later on when the car started scoring over 270 points I paid a little more attention to the level I was competing at but still the comments from knowledgable judges were the most beneficial to me. When I didn't get those "good" judges I would just enjoy the day and the Z people.

    We will always continue to make progress with the rules and these rules will help elevate the quality of our cars which is important. Peoples Choice shows are good to pull others in with no stress and enjoy their cars but it doesn't always help with improvement of the cars.

    I would be embarrassed to show a car that only follows the "specifics" only and neglecting the car as a whole. That would be a disgrace, show a lack of care for my car I so enjoy, and a lack of respect for the whole purpose of why I show cars.
    Last edited by zlady; 10-09-2009 at 09:28 AM.
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    Two things. One, if someone lost in a tie with another Z in my class because they had a dirty clutch MC, when that part is not covered under the judging rules, I would expect them to raise an unholy stink. And they would have some pretty solid ground to stand on. You want "bulk items" or general overall appearance to count towards a final score, then include them in the rules. If not, then stand back and watch folks get angry, confused and frustrated.

    Second, in keeping with my own personal opinion on car shows I will repeat a statement I've made to numerous car owners - "The trophies cost about $10., here's $10., go buy one and stop fretting about your score".
    Last edited by gnosez; 10-09-2009 at 10:04 AM.
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    Extreme and hypothetical senarios...
    Paint carries max 10pts, so if everything else is perfect, even though the car is in primer (say it scores 0 on the paint), it could theoretically still tally up 290pts or above to win a gold (medallion or cup).

    Also, a car that scores above 290pts, but the engine is dead(say internal damage and therefore judges can't see, => no point diduction). She can still win a Gold (medallion or cup)..

    None of that will probablly happen in real life, but it could theoretically happen...Odd...

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    Actually, it has happened in "real" life at a number of car shows but not at the 290+ level, only between individual cars in a specific class and I am going to assume it will continue into the future unless it has been corrected.
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    Reading the rules reminds me of why I only ever entered my MGA for casual juding in the driver category. (See attached pic).

    Even in the "driver" class, class winners are often trailer queens with documented mileage that were never driven. These cars were purchased and restored with the singular goal of winning best-in-class at club shows. Just a bit too anal for my taste...

    From my perspective, cars are meant to be driven, usually resulting in visible road wear. I love looking at pristine cars, but have more appreciation for a well maintained car that is driven frequently, but will never win a trophy...
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    If a car was totally in primer, then it has no paint, and should therefore get no deduction on that item. I have seen a few cars that actually looked OK in grey or black primer.

    Julio-
    I always get beat out by the customs and over-restored cars at shows. Mine is stock and driven.
    People are always saying stuff like "that's a really cool car" but they won't actually cast a vote for it...
    When you get to hang out with Z car people you're more at home than when you get those kind of megabuck car owners. Maybe next time you could park next to some rat-rods?


    thxZ

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    Don't need to park next to the rat rods as the MGA is gone now. After 17 years I sold to a guy in Holland to make room for the 240Z. There's only so much usable space in my 2-car garage... One bay for the car, one bay for project space.

    Like the MGA, my 72' Z will be a respectible driver, but definetly not show car quality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01 View Post
    Some of the comments I've read thus far and in other similar discussions seem to indicate how difficiut an undertaking assembling that book/document would be. It would be just as subject to conjecture/discussion as the judging rules themselves.
    That is obvious, but such a document would not be an official one or sanctioned by anyone. It could only be a bunch of general rules or tips or ghuidelines, and one would need to verify everything and write in all the notes they can get. It would probably be a good place to start.
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    I can't believe you would even consider showing at a car show with a dirty clutch MC. That's sic dude! Like farting in an elevator... Only clean plungers allowed here!

    I guess the comments section is for comments. I usually write compliments or a specific thing I'm deducting points for. Thanks for your comments, zlady! As pointed out, the only thing that actually has to work is the glove box light in the stock classes. Any body finish is acceptable other than the stock class. I want to see one of Shin Yoshikawa's polished aluminum bodies. Washer bottle - only needed in the stock classes. I saw mis-matched tires a couple of weeks ago. For those of you with the "but I drive my car" excuse can enter the Daily Driver class. Car showing is lots of fun and show judging just as much funner. You get a free t-shirt and get to look at cars up real close and admire things like what zlady has done. I'm think'n those trophies are around $40 these days. Clean is Divine
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    We discussed the new rules at a club meeting, and it was said that the changes concerned the newer cars, which is pretty much how things looked to me.
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    There is one important thing missing from the rules; the protocol the judges themselves must use when judging the cars.

    At any car show- judged or not- no one may touch the cars without permission from the owner. That includes the judges at a judged show. Even the judges at a concours d'elegance show will do that. They will look carefully, or closely at a car and even stick their head in the window (if it's open) but they will not touch the car without first asking the owner. Nor will they get in or sit in a car to test controls ( brakes, lights, glove box, etc.)
    )
    Even then, with permission, a judge (like at a concours de'elegence) will use clean (white) gloves to do things like open a door or poke into an exhaust tip. Usually the owner will be asked to open the door, bonnet, or boot. The judge will ask the owner to test the controls for them and they will note the result. For a Z meet, it might be necessary for a judge to look far over the engine, and to support himself. In that case, permission and a soft, clean cloth (a terry cloth towel) is appropriate.

    There is no reason that judges at a Z meet, even a ZCCA meet, should be handling things on the cars, without permission or even some clean gloves or a clean cloth.


    There may be more things the judges should be doing (or not) while looking at the cars. There's no reason why those things couldn't be collected to produce a judges addendum, to be incorporated into the next rules revision.

    thxZ
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 11-27-2009 at 02:22 PM.
    Drive Responsibly.
    enjoy classic Rock music.

  33. #33
    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    In the Judging Requiements section of the rules(pg. 10), it looks like the ZCCA requires that your car have emmissions equipment on it:

    Score zero (0) deduction if none present in the modified classes five (5) point deduction if modified and ten (10) point deduction if missing in the stock classes.
    It seems unclear (except to the writer, of course.) What does "stock classes" mean? Does that include the Daily Driver class, or just the stock class for each generation? The 10-point deduction is odd; usually you get no deduction when an item is completely removed, like the a/c.

    thxZ
    Last edited by TomoHawk; 12-03-2009 at 11:34 AM.
    Drive Responsibly.
    enjoy classic Rock music.

  34. #34
    Registered User Zulaytr's Avatar
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    Default New ZCCA Judging Rules

    "What does "stock classes" mean? Does that include the Daily Driver class, or just the stock class for each generation?"

    That rule should only apply to Stock (10 points off) and Modified (5 points off) and not Daily Driver. Judging for the DD class does not include the engine compartment.
    ZULAYTR

    72 240Z
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  35. #35
    1978 280Z (stock) TomoHawk's Avatar
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    Yeah, I remember, thanks. Anywhere else you go, DD includes the engine, but they only care about how it looks.
    Drive Responsibly.
    enjoy classic Rock music.

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