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Thread: How would you build a DSP AUTO-X Z

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    Registered User rjracin240's Avatar
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    Default How would you build a DSP AUTO-X Z

    Keeping my fingers crossed that the Z gets moved to DSP; would like to get idea's from everyone as to what components, brands, and sources of supply you would use to build your Z wether hypothetical or you join the crowd and run for real's
    Russ Jones

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    Crumudgeon
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    Early 1973 240Z chassis.
    Welded in roll bar.
    Bogart or Keizer 15 x 10 wheels.
    Hoosier A6 275/35-15 tires.
    Penske 8760 triple adjustable shocks.
    Custom tubular ARBs.
    Camber plates.
    Early 240 short steering arms.
    Late 280Z 4 speed.
    Aluminum flywheel.
    Quatermaster 7.25" double disc clutch.
    3:54 R180 with OSG Super Lock.
    N42/N42 head/block combination.
    "C" cam.
    Head cut to manufacturers or SCCA limit.
    Block overbored to SCCA limit.
    Custom intake manifold.
    60mm TB.
    Stahl header.
    3" exhaust.
    Motec engine managment.
    Race seats.
    Race harnesses.

    ...and more.

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    Why the 73 chassis out of curiosity? The series I would be lighter.
    Jon

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmortensen View Post
    Why the 73 chassis out of curiosity? The series I would be lighter.
    I was wondering the same. Factory rear sway bar mounts, maybe?

    And would the weight difference be all that great once the bumpers were stripped off?
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
    Car blogs - 240Z - Porsche 911

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    Crumudgeon
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    Stiffness - you can run bigger springs and bigger tires. Vic Sias' BSP winning 240Z was a 1973. Its important to avoid the later 73s to keep from getting the bigger bumper reinforcements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    And would the weight difference be all that great once the bumpers were stripped off?
    Seems to me that the series one is significantly lighter than the later cars. One guy on Hybrid Z had his early F/Prepared Z hovering around the 1900 lb mark. I believe Steve Carlson in Fresno is under 1900 lbs also. I don't know the D/SP rules, it might not even be an issue if the min weight is 2200 lbs or something...
    Jon

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    Crumudgeon
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    SP requires full interior, metal body panels, etc. You can't compare a car built to Prepared. My old series 1 1970 240Z's previous life was as Erik Messley's BSP car. It weighed 2,260 lbs in full SP trim and Erik won a few National Tours and Pro Solos with the car back in the mid 1990s. When Vic brought his car out in the later 1990s it was faster then Erick's for a variety of reasons. One big one was that Vic could run wider tires and stiffer springs the Erik's car. Vic's car weighed in around 2,380 if my memory is correct.

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    Registered User rjracin240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coffey View Post
    SP requires full interior, metal body panels, etc. You can't compare a car built to Prepared. My old series 1 1970 240Z's previous life was as Erik Messley's BSP car. It weighed 2,260 lbs in full SP trim and Erik won a few National Tours and Pro Solos with the car back in the mid 1990s. When Vic brought his car out in the later 1990s it was faster then Erick's for a variety of reasons. One big one was that Vic could run wider tires and stiffer springs the Erik's car. Vic's car weighed in around 2,380 if my memory is correct.
    John,
    Trying to understand your concern about tire width, since it is Street Prepared you are allowed to flare the fenders, are you looking to put the wheel tire combo you proposed under stock fenders, or are you considering offset so that you can run deeper back spacing?
    Is the weight penalty of your welded in rollbar offset by the rigidity it would add to the body?
    Any suggestions for a strong regional car setup, those shocks alone would kill my budget for a couple of years!
    Thanks for the comments was hoping that you would pipe up when I started the thread.
    Russ Jones

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    Crumudgeon
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    Trying to understand your concern about tire width, since it is Street Prepared you are allowed to flare the fenders, are you looking to put the wheel tire combo you proposed under stock fenders, or are you considering offset so that you can run deeper back spacing?
    Its a more fundamental issue. Wider or stickier tires require more spring rate to get the most out of them (the tires). Without more spring you're essentially carrying more unsprung weight with the wider tires and not getting the corresponding grip increase.

    Unfortunately the series 1 cars, even with STBs and a welded in roll bar, are limited to about 300 lb. in. on spring rate. This limit is mainly from the front of the car where triangulated front STBs are not allowed in SP.

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    Default 280zx

    What about a ZX?
    Would it be too heavy?
    Too many cars, not enough money!!!

    73Z roller
    73Z bent frame, interior for roller
    73Z running setting up for autox
    2 78 2 + 2 parts cars
    83ZX weekend warrior
    80 Fiat X19 autocrosser
    07 Civic SI daily and autox
    64 Chevy pickup cruiser
    06 Ford F250 hauler and work truck

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    If I remember correctly, the short steering arms are not legal along with traditional camber plates.

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    Update/backdate. Very early 240Z arms are shorter by a little bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coffey View Post
    Update/backdate. Very early 240Z arms are shorter by a little bit.
    Good to know. Thanks!

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    The drawback is the ball joint stud taper. You need to have the early arms machined to match the taper of the later ball joints. That's a gray area and might lead to a protest, if anyone is smart enough to figure it out. A defense might be that the original ball joints are NLA and this is part of a normal maintenance/repair process.

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    Jon,

    Which stock cam is a "C" cam?

    BTW, did you send in your support to the SEB regarding this proposal?
    Last edited by Curtis240Z; 01-04-2010 at 06:26 PM.

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    Vic's "full interior" was an interesting interpretation. It clearly was determined to be legal as it would certainly have been protested at Nationals when he won with it. It was, as I recall lightweight carpet screwed to the door panels and the same on the floor. It wasn't so much THE full interior as it was A full interior.

    Very fast car and driver...
    Rob
    2000 BMW R1100 RT-SE (for sale)
    1999 Toyota 4Runner Supercharged
    1975 Porsche 914 stroker motor autoX car
    1973 Datsun 240Z Restoration project. New paint in original white. E31 head on 2.4 block. Nissan Motorsports header. R200 with Nissan motorsports LSD.

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    Registered User conedodger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coffey View Post
    The drawback is the ball joint stud taper. You need to have the early arms machined to match the taper of the later ball joints. That's a gray area and might lead to a protest, if anyone is smart enough to figure it out. A defense might be that the original ball joints are NLA and this is part of a normal maintenance/repair process.
    Anyone protesting that would have to know Z cars and your car like a brother. Not likely to be noticed.
    Rob
    2000 BMW R1100 RT-SE (for sale)
    1999 Toyota 4Runner Supercharged
    1975 Porsche 914 stroker motor autoX car
    1973 Datsun 240Z Restoration project. New paint in original white. E31 head on 2.4 block. Nissan Motorsports header. R200 with Nissan motorsports LSD.

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    Crumudgeon
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    The "C" is the cam from the 260Z if I'm correct. Again, this swap is a gray area thing - actually, its plain illegal given the update/backdate requires the engine to be swapped as a complete unit. But, based on how SCCA tests cams, the specs will be within their range of error when they measure duration.

    Its not that critical of a change because the power difference is very small.

    I sent an e-mail in requesting the change, although I'm not going to build a car for the class. I was much more interested in the short lived proposal to put the 280ZXT on the same line in BSP as the 240Z.

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    Registered User Curtis240Z's Avatar
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    If the proposal goes through my car is ready. I just got to get the travel logistics organized and that is a very expensive task considering my location, but definitely worth the shot.

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    If it does go through, it will not become effective until 2011, so you should have plenty of time to get the travel plans worked out...

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    Registered User 260DET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f1race79 View Post
    What about a ZX?
    Would it be too heavy?
    Stiffer chassis than the S30? I have no idea but if the ZX is the bastard child then it would be fun to get one competitive, put some noses out of joint.

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    Richard you are WAY too happy on the ZX. Curtis, you really want to ship your car 5 or 6000 miles for 3 minutes of seat time and a trophy IF you place?
    Jon

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    Making a competitive BSP ZXT will be a definite longshot... It's been in that class for decades and I haven't heard of anyone doing it yet. The Evo's are dominating that class and show no signs of letting go.

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmortensen View Post
    Curtis, you really want to ship your car 5 or 6000 miles for 3 minutes of seat time and a trophy IF you place?
    If the proposal goes through I'll take my Z to Nationals for sure!

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    Before you ship it over Curtis, you might want to make the rear spoiler legal... Maybe you can just transplant John Thomas' rear hatch & spoiler. i think it would be a close color match.

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    I already have a spare hatch, just got to make a spoiler, if the proposal goes through....

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    Little birdie tells me that the DSP proposal will go nowhere. There are still reverberations from Vic beating the best C4 Corvettes and Tunnel's M3 in BSP back in 2001.
    Last edited by John Coffey; 01-12-2010 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coffey View Post
    Little birdie tells me that the DSP proposal will go nowhere. There are still reverberations from Vic beating the best C4 Corvettes and Tunnel's M3 in BSP back in 2001.
    If I recall Vic won on the 9/11 year when we raced only one track, so that isn't a total picture of what could of happened because the two tracks usually favor different strengths (power vs. handling).

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    It's true that Vic won on a single course event, but the same car won in 98 with Andy Craig driving. Both are excellent drivers and Vic can definitely set up a car well. That said, those were the days before the rally cars moved into BSP and unpset the balance of power dramatically. I don't think anyone can make a Z competitive with the boosted cars in the class now.

    In spite of that reality, it's a big jump back to DSP. Roughly 4 seconds separated the winners of those classes at Nationals and that had little to do with the weather. If Vic and Andy proved anything it's that the Z can be competitive with the 'Vettes. In 2009 the fastest Vette in BSP (8th place) would have won DSP by 7/10's. A very well built/driven Z could do well in DSP.

    Ultimately the SEB decides what changes to make based on feedback. If they did not think this reclass had merit they wouldn't have posted it for member comment. So the more letters they get supporting it will help the Z's cause. Now, if a few current competitive DSP drivers get worked up and send letters saying 'are you nuts?' this whole idea may die an early death. We won't know for a long while. The longer you hear nothing, the better the Z's chances. The SEB probably won't print a final recommendation until late summer... a retraction could come next month if the opposition is strong...

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    [

    Ultimately the SEB decides what changes to make based on feedback. If they did not think this reclass had merit they wouldn't have posted it for member comment. So the more letters they get supporting it will help the Z's cause. Now, if a few current competitive DSP drivers get worked up and send letters saying 'are you nuts?' this whole idea may die an early death. We won't know for a long while. The longer you hear nothing, the better the Z's chances. The SEB probably won't print a final recommendation until late summer... a retraction could come next month if the opposition is strong...

    Tom[/QUOTE]

    Please all you SCCA members out there; please write in your support for this class change, I definitely would like to break the Z back out and once again take it for a spin around the track!
    Russ Jones

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    ...and some of the current DSP racers ARE getting worked up, so the more letters the better.

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    Thought i might get involved with this thread.Vic's car was a 73 because that is what was availible,my car (fp champ car 85,87,88) was a 73 because it was my street car,(caught on fire alt short).If i were to construct a first rate BSP Z i would start with the lightest chassis possible.The reason being horsepower to weight ratio.The chassis stiffness is of very little consequence because both chassis flex and the rules do not allow enough cage to make up for it With the horsepower so limited weight is everything. suspension tuning can make up for chassis differences. BTW Vic's car did not have carpet door panels, and i far as i knew (which i did ask bluntly his car was to the limit of the rules) if anyone has any questions i be glad to answer.

    Andy Craig
    Last edited by Andydando; 01-19-2010 at 08:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andydando View Post
    ...my car (fp champ car 85,87,88) was a 73 because it was my street carAndy Craig
    The car in my profile pic is the remains of Andy's FP car... I think the only parts that remain are the right fender, the doors, the cage, the hatch, the diff and the cylinder head casting. Everything else has been replaced... some things a few times.

    Andy, any clue what Vic's HP was?

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tholt29 View Post
    ...and some of the current DSP racers ARE getting worked up, so the more letters the better.

    Tom
    Already sent in my request, are there any of you die hard Auto-X guys that can suggest how to word the request with the right buzzwords to heighten our chances of a class change?

    Thanks to those of you that have already written, please let us know your experiences of any feedback.

    My experience so far was a automated letter letting me know they received it.
    Russ Jones

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    When writing your letter, keep in mind that they don't care if you think it would be cool and serve you well. The more detail you can provide on why you think the Z's will be FAIR competition for the BMW's, Subaru Impreza, Lexus IS300 and the lone Merkur, the more influence you will have. Provide technical details, parts availability, strengths and weaknesses that will convince the SEB that a 40 year 2300 lb Z does not have the potential to be dominant over a bunch of newer 3000 + pound sedans.
    One of the awesome things about the Z's that makes it so attractive to us, is the interchangeability of the engines and drivetrain. That is pretty heavily restricted in street prepared, mainly because we have to use an engine as a whole with no internal mods. No head swapping, no bigger valves, no cam swaps. The things that really wake up a Z are not legal here and HP gains are limited to what you can get with exhaust and intake changes. Tell them what kind of documented power can be created from those mods. Don't mislead them by pointing out Rebello can build a 300 hp street motor because that motor would not be legal in this class.
    The ultimate goal is to grow participation. If this would have that effect tell them! I am on the Prepared class commitee have a some friends on the SEB and I will try and check their pulse on this issue once the feedback has leveled off and let you all know which way the wind seems to be blowing...

    Tom
    Last edited by tholt29; 01-25-2010 at 11:53 AM.
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tholt29 View Post
    When writing your letter, keep in mind that they don't care if you think it would be cool and serve you well. The more detail you can provide on why you think the Z's will be FAIR competition for the BMW's, Subaru Impreza, Lexus IS300 and the lone Merkur, the more influence you will have. Provide technical details, parts availability, strengths and weaknesses that will convince the SEB that a 40 year 2300 lb Z does not have the potential to be dominant over a bunch of newer 3000 + pound sedans.
    One of the awesome things about the Z's that makes it so attractive to us, is the interchangeability of the engines and drivetrain. That is pretty heavily restricted in street prepared, mainly because we have to use an engine as a whole with no internal mods. No head swapping, no bigger valves, no cam swaps. The things that really wake up a Z are not legal here and HP gains are limited to what you can get with exhaust and intake changes. Tell them what kind of documented power can be created from those mods. Don't mislead them by pointing out Rebello can build a 300 hp street motor because that motor would not be legal in this class.
    The ultimate goal is to grow participation. If this would have that effect tell them! I am on the Prepared class commitee have a some friends on the SEB and I will try and check their pulse on this issue once the feedback has leveled off and let you all know which way the wind seems to be blowing...

    Tom
    STREET PREPARED
    - The following class listing change proposals are being published for member comment:
    - Move from DSP to FSP: Fiat 124 (’66-’74) (ref. 09-498)
    - Move from BSP to DSP: Datsun 240Z & 260Z & 280 Z. Also revise current BSP listing to “Datsun 280ZX/280ZX Turbo
    (‘79-’83) (ref. 09-673)
    - Add new listing in DSP: “Honda CRX Si & Civic Si (’84-’87)” and move to DSP on one line ”Honda Civic & CRX 1500
    (‘84-’87)” (ref. 09-617)

    http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...k-jan-solo.pdf

    Above is the link for the SEB proposal, please take the quoted advise and lets get a resurgence of Z's back on the auto-x tracks.

    SOLO EVENTS BOARD MINUTES | Nov. 23, 2009
    The Solo Events Board met by conference call November 23rd. Attending were SEB members Tina Reeves, Dave Feighner,
    Steve Wynveen, Iain Mannix, Erik Strelnieks, and Bryan Nemy; Lisa Noble and Robin Langlotz of the BOD; Doug Gill and Brian
    Harmer of the National Staff. These minutes are presented in topical order rather than the order discussed.
    Unless noted otherwise the effective date for all rule, class, and listing change proposals herein is 1/1/2011.
    Comments regarding items published herein should be directed to seb@scca.com.
    Russ Jones

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    Here is a copy of my email to the Board, hoping that every SCCA member will write your own email or at least cut and paste mine, dont forget to change the membership # lol!

    Lets get this through.

    Dear SEB,

    The following proposal of the Move from BSP to DSP: Datsun 240Z & 260Z & 280 Z. Also revise current BSP listing to “Datsun 280ZX/280ZX Turbo
    (‘79-’83) (ref. 09-673) has gained my interest, as a owner of a 1972 Datsun 240Z I am disappointed in the overwhelming odds against this car in BSP. The growth of technology has resulted in the earlier Datsun Z’s being outclassed, the move to DSP would add another car to this class that would be competitive and have a power to weight ratio in keeping with this class. There is still a large following of the early Z’s thereby allowing for additional growth to Auto-X racing. I am hoping the board will see the benefits of this class change to both bringing back a car with a huge following and much history in SCCA Competition.

    Sincerely,

    Russ Jones
    MBR# 344303
    Russ Jones

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    Hey Andy!

    Good to hear you chime in! I have your number and still need to call you about a couple things. You are the Man!

    I was their for the display personally put on by Vic and Andy the years they ran the car, awesome! It was truly a to the limit car I did not have money at the time to build. There is one caveat I put out to people trying to build the car, stick to the rules and get every last ounce of weight out as stated earlier. Then go after engine, SHOCKS, and more testing ie. driving. You can not win with out them.
    OTH, a early 90's BMW 3 series with basically an M3"Hint" motor and setup is easier to drive, more parts and shops, and more rear end ratio's to choose from. I love my Z and had success, but I jumped into a Trophy winning BMW in a very controlled, big course test environment and in 2 runs beat my car's time by a second. What was even more scary about the test was knowing that the owner, anonymous, never let me drive it again because I beat his time by a 1.5 seconds on a 48-50 second Nationals type venue course.

    With that said it will be great to see the old Z's out again Have Fun!

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    With that said it will be great to see the old Z's out again Have Fun![/QUOTE]


    With that said please write in to the SCCA requesting the classing change if all ready not done!
    Russ Jones

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    I'm not sure this is the correct thread but since this one seems to have morphed into the DSP discussion...

    The SCCA has just posted the March Fastrack and includes this:
    Quote Originally Posted by SCCA FasTrack
    STREET PREPARED
    - The SPAC continues to review feedback and data concerning the possible moves of Datsun/Nissan Z cars to DSP. (ref.
    09-734, 09-739, 09-753, 10-003, 10-054, 10-055)
    That means we still have a chance! PLEASE, write a letter if you haven't done so.

  41. #41
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    It looks like the thought of moving the Z from BSP to DSP is losing some ground. The latest Fastrack is looking for feedback to move the Z along with the S2000 and others to CSP now... That's not much different than BSP as far as times go, but does move it away from the rally buggies and makes the competition a lot less course dependent.

    "Move from BSP to CSP: BMW M Coupe and Roadster, BMW Z3, Datsun/Nissan Z cars, Honda S2000, Mazda RX8"

    ... write a note to SEB@SCCA.COM if you like or dislike this idea and or prefer the move to DSP. The squeeky wheel gets the grease!

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

  42. #42
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    Sent in my comments.

  43. #43
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    Once again comments placed with the SCCA SEB for the move to DSP.

    All supporters of the Z; please make your comments regardless of whether you race, to the SEB in favor of the move. Let them know that would be your deciding factor to race the Z!!!
    Russ Jones

  44. #44
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    Please make your comments to the SEB.
    Wanting to race the Z BAD but want to be competitive, help me out!

    Hi, Russell,

    Your comments have been logged 10-277 for SP Reclassing Comments and sent to the SEB. They will discuss this topic and once they have made a decision they will post it in a future FasTrack news.

    Thanks for your input!

    Brian Harmer
    SCCA Solo Technical Specialist
    1-800-770-2055
    Solo National Rules: http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...solo_rules.pdf
    FastTrack: http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=78
    ________________________________________
    From: Jones, Russell J. [mailto:rjones@atlanticmarine.com]
    Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:07 PM
    To: seb
    Subject: Move of Datsun S30 to DSP

    I am disturbed to see that the long awaited move of the first generation Datsun Z might be moved to CSP instead of the initial plan of DSP. This car is a lot more suited for DSP considering its age and suspension design. The car also has a huge loyal following that could generate a resurgence of participation once this following saw that their car was entering a class where it could fairly compete.

    Please reconsider the class of the first Generation of Datsun Z and place the car in DSP
    Russ Jones

  45. #45
    Crumudgeon
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    Ultimately the SEB decides what changes to make based on feedback.
    Missed this... Not true. The SEB also uses their own opinions and opinions of others they feel are 'experts" in the area to help make the final decision. Its not based completely on member feedback. If option A gets the most positive member feedback that's no guarantee of approval. This SCCA is not a democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

    BTW... From the latest Fasttrack:

    Per the SPAC, the following previously-published (January 2010) proposed moves have been withdrawn:

    - Datsun 240/260/280Z from BSP to DSP

    The following groups of class change proposals has been recommended by the SPAC and are being published here for
    member comment:

    - Move from BSP to CSP:
    BMW
    M3 (E46)
    M3 (E36)
    Datsun
    240Z
    260Z
    280Z

    - Change the listing in BSP for the following cars to have this form:
    Datsun & Nissan
    280ZX, 280ZX Turbo, 300ZX, 300ZX Turbo (’84-’96)
    Note the last entry. VG30DET in a 280ZX NA?
    Last edited by John Coffey; 04-22-2010 at 08:54 AM.

  46. #46
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    Also note the 240/260/280Z are listed on separate lines... Technically that would make any update backdate illegal... I suspect that was an error but we better make sure that's the case... Keep writing...

    Tom
    F Prepared 280Z
    http://sth2.com/Z-car/ UPDATED for the first time in a LOOONNNNGGG time.

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