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Thread: L-Series engine timeline

  1. #1
    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Default L-Series engine timeline

    Hi all,

    I have been playing with a table listing "all" the variations of the L-series engine in the S30 and S130 model range. I started it for myself to try and get a better understanding of when and what changed.
    The table (Timeline) is by no means complete. If anyone has any information or finds any errors I would like to hear it. Up to now its just information I have read in forums of manuals over the years. Now Im trying to fill the gaps.

    It looks like geezer tried to make a similar Timeline before. Im want to try and do the engine, thats a big enough undertaking.
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/z...ine-chart.html

    Thanks for any help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails L-Engine Timeline.pdf  
    Last edited by EuroDat; 02-27-2013 at 12:26 PM.
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    Registered User siteunseen's Avatar
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    I got no help/info but I like what your doing and can't wait to print out the finished timeline.
    1972 240Z #918 New Sight Orange
    1977 280Z #305 Light Blue Metallic
    1972 240Z #110 Persimmons Red

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    Fired Up! JLPurcell's Avatar
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    Great information, sorry I can't help.
    jlp
    Jerry Purcell
    1970 HLS30 00029 Owner since 1976 Now owned by Les Canaday (Classic Datsun Motorsports)
    1972 HLS30 93606 IZCC Registion #105 Original owner back home after full restoration by Classic Datsun Motorsports

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    Great stuff. I wish I had seen that before I bought I bought the wrong engine...

    Might want to note that the later N47 heads are a little different than the earlier ones. I don't profess to know all of the changes, but one thing I can absolutely confirm is a threaded sensor hole into the water jacket back between spark plugs 5&6.

    And where does the W48 exhaust manifold fall in that progression?
    Last edited by Captain Obvious; 02-27-2013 at 06:58 PM.

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    Exhaust manifold info would be good. Square port N42, round port N47. I think that the exhaust manifolds used in the ZX cars are different from those used in the Z's also, and they also have a round port for the P79 head and a square port for the P90(A). The bolt patterns are the same but the ZX manifold is shorter from top to exhaust pipe flange (can't use the ZX manifold on my Z with a stock Z exhaust pipe). I just measured them the other day, but one was on an engine. The ZX manifolds also have an O2 sensor port.

    And the N47 head came in the middle of 77, I believe, July maybe. And the F54/P79 came in late 80. I could be wrong on the N47, pretty sure I'm right on the F54/P79.

    Also my 76 N42 exhaust manifold has an EGR port. I think that the CA models might have had EGR. The Service Bulletin says they all do, but it's not right. The picture has it right though. The xenons30 site has the 1976 Service Bulletin and various Owners Manuals.

    Looks like a cool resource when it's done, thanks for putting it out here.




    p.s. The valve seats should be silicon, not silicone. Tiny detail. And, I don't know the fine details, but in the 1976 TSB page 8, it says that the intake valve seat material was changed to something more durable but they don't say what. Maybe the change happened in late 76. I think that TSB's come out after the model is introduced.

    Groovy~


    Edit - Just saw CO's post. I thnk that the N47 head with the CHTS port is actually the (in)famous Maxima N47 head. Used on the Maxima L24E. Smaller combustion chamber and valves.
    Last edited by Zed Head; 02-27-2013 at 07:03 PM.
    1976 280Z, with some minor modifications

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    It would be nice to see more precise info regarding the cylinder heads. The main issue would be the E-88 generation heads, since there was at least 3 versions.
    Example is my 9/71 E-88 had the smaller chamber size of of the E-31.

    Why? For folks looking for a certain CC chamber size for their build.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Registered User madkaw's Avatar
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    I will say that the graph seems pretty accurate -well done. Looking at the heads again, you do show progressions in the e-88 head. Not sure how you can show the e-88 and e-31 sharing the same combustion chamber for a short period of time.
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
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    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback. Plenty of info on the heads. I didnt know there are 3 versions of the E88 or 2 of the N47 for that matter. The Z is always amazing me. You think you know a lot and then you realise you dont know that much after all.
    I will include a line for exhaust manifolds, but dont know where the W48 fits in?
    My goal is to make a chart we can all use for searching and matching parts and post it in the technical articles.

    Ill post an update tonight (CET).
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madkaw View Post
    I will say that the graph seems pretty accurate -well done.
    Except that it completely ignores the Japanese market L20A and L20AE-engined models.

    Speechless.....

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    accurate to my limited knowledge



    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Except that it completely ignores the Japanese market L20A and L20AE-engined models.

    Speechless.....
    Steve
    71 240z,bw-5sp 2.4-40 over,balanced,e-88,big valves,ported&polished, stage2,header, triple Mikuni's 40's
    3.90 Subaru STI LSD

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    Quote Originally Posted by EuroDat View Post
    My goal is to make a chart we can all use for searching and matching parts and post it in the technical articles.

    Ill post an update tonight (CET).
    EuroDat,
    How are you going to address the fact that there was no simple, linear time-line style breakdown for the engines fitted in different models and in different markets?

    You're going to need to think about this again before you design your layout. I'm disappointed to see you ignoring the Japanese market models of a Japanese car ( you don't seem to have even thought of them...? ) but it's even more disappointing to see somebody from the Netherlands ignore the European market versions too ( look at your '260Z' data.... ).

    It's a big task you're taking on, and hats off to you for trying, but it's got to be RIGHT or there's no point. There are already more inaccurate data sources out there than you can shake a stick at, and we don't need any more poisoned wells.

    Sorry to be harsh, but I think it needs to be said.

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    I can appreciate the amount of effort that you have put into the creation of this chart but as Alan has pointed out, in order to be complete, and to cover all model designates another approach would need to be taken. A true timeline illustrating the S30 would also be more accurate using the VIN or month of build as a time marker. It would seem that targeting only the engines would make for a simplified chart but even so the components to build the engines are selected for various reasons, such as mandates dictated to conform to emission standards of the particular market designation or any number of other reasons specified by the particular market. Having said that, I do like the idea of laying it out in this manner but only if labeled with the corect market designations that are applicable. In no way am I trying to discourage you from going ahead, just pointing out the bigger picture that will present problems and poke holes in the method you are using. Good luck!

  13. #13
    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    EuroDat,
    How are you going to address the fact that there was no simple, linear time-line style breakdown for the engines fitted in different models and in different markets?

    You're going to need to think about this again before you design your layout. I'm disappointed to see you ignoring the Japanese market models of a Japanese car ( you don't seem to have even thought of them...? ) but it's even more disappointing to see somebody from the Netherlands ignore the European market versions too ( look at your '260Z' data.... ).

    It's a big task you're taking on, and hats off to you for trying, but it's got to be RIGHT or there's no point. There are already more inaccurate data sources out there than you can shake a stick at, and we don't need any more poisoned wells.

    Sorry to be harsh, but I think it needs to be said.
    Hi HS30-H, You are not being harsh and you are totally right pointing out that this list covers the north american market.

    Before I started, I searched this forum and others for similar timelines. The biggest problem I notice with other attempts is the enormous task getting all the information.
    In north america alone you have the differences between the Californian, Fed and Canadian models. The Australian and European markets kept the 260z through to the 280zx came along and also retained leaded fuel. I know so little about the Japanese market, I woulnt know where to begin.
    This is for the american market and it wouldnt work for different market. I was planning timelines for the different markets. You could do it that way and retain some control over the layout without making in unreadable.

    In the end I had to start somewhere and the american market was the "easiest" for gathering information. The plan was to book small sucesses and continue to build on that instead of taking on everything at once and then crash and burn. I never expected to finish this in a couple of weeks.

    I am in the Netherlands, but there are not that many original dutch Zs still running here. I think IMHO most of the cars here come from the states. My car is also an import.

    Cheers
    Chas
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    A quick update.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails L-Engine Timeline Rev1.pdf  
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    ++++++++ HS30-H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EuroDat View Post
    This is for the american market and it wouldnt work for different market.
    In that case, please clearly label it as such. If you leave it as it is, people will do what they always do, and think that the "American" market is the only story.

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    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    In that case, please clearly label it as such. If you leave it as it is, people will do what they always do, and think that the "American" market is the only story.
    I will amend the tittle in the next update. I have also started gathering info on the UK and European models.

    Chas
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Updated several sections. E88 heads and manifold data has been improved, still needs some work though. If anyone sees something thats not right, I would appreciate it.
    The problem I have with the internet. There is so much info out there, but a lot of it is just inaccurate or unclear and based on what poeple think is right. I try to get info from brochures, manuals or sources backed by other "reliable" leads.

    Chas
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails L-Engine Timeline Rev2.pdf  
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Nice work, but at first glance I see a few issues.

    The cam lubrication line isn't correct. The N42 head used a spray bar and even a few of the N47 heads had spray bars, though the vast majority were internally oiled. Also, flat top pistons didn't come into play in the ZX until the '81 MY with the intodction of the P79 head. You have them coming in early with the N47 head which would have produced 9.83:1 CR.

    EDIT: The late E88 heads have 44.6 cc chambers just like the N42 and N47 heads.

    EDIT 2: Flat top carbs came in later than listed. The '73 MY had the flat top Hitachi carbs, but you have them coming in in Sept. '71.
    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 03-09-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Hi Jeff, Thats for the imput. Ill make the changes to the N42 head info. I have a 5/77 with a N47. It has an internal oiled cam. Most of the time I spent since last update was on the E88 heads and the manifolds. Still needs work down this end of the line.

    I found some info about the carbs, but its hard to find good data showing when the HJG went from 4 to 3 screwed domes and when the flat tops HMB started.
    I found a parts list for the series I, II & III carbs. The front and back are identical in the series I, but after that they changed the designed so the carbs are different from each other. That means you have at least a 4 screwed dome model and two 3 screwed models for the front and back carb. Mmmm.
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    As far as I can tell, all '77 MY cars had N47 heads and probably 99% of those N47's were internally oiled. I have one of the few externally oiled N47 heads, but I am fairly certain that it was a pre-production head which is why it had the earlier spray bar oiling system. I got it in 2001 from an original factory race team. I was told that it was taken off an engine when new and had been on the shelf ever since. The head was clearly brand new and not refurbished, so I had no reason to doubt his story.
    Jeff
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    My Q1 1977 has an oil bar in the N-47 head.
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Except that it completely ignores the Japanese market L20A and L20AE-engined models.

    Speechless.....
    Good point there... the Japanese indeed had 2 litre versions from the L series. And then there is the 432 engine aswell...
    HLS30 32581, 5/71 Matching numbers

    Jay Leno : You know one week after the Americans have walked on the moon, the Japanese introduced this sports car, and…if you’re a car guy pretty equal. I mean walking on the moon was pretty good, but how many times you’d gonna walk on the moon? But here was an affordable sports car that had real performance and looked like it cost a lot more than it did.

  23. #23
    Registered User EuroDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    My Q1 1977 has an oil bar in the N-47 head.
    Hi Blue, Thanks for the input.
    I found that mistake a while ago, but still having trouble trying to determine the start of the N47.
    I've seen March 77 through to August 77. My engine has the N47 and it from 05/77. I am pretty sure its original because I had a factory recall sticker in 1979 with the engine serial number written on it.
    Chas
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails L-Engine Timeline Rev4.pdf  
    Chas
    5/77 280Z HLS30 403100 with some modifications
    Original colour: 305 Light Blue. The PO changed it to Red

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    Nova Scotia,Canada,Earth Blue's Avatar
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    Mine is a feb 77 so march seems reasonable
    There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply.
    The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.


    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)



    ZCars in Eastern Canada seaport ready for shipment to Europe

    http://ZSportCanada.com


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