Nissan Factory / Commemorative 240z on ebay

[jonathanrussell]

You don't see these for sale very often. It will be interesting to see where pricing goes. Good set of photos too.


Datsun Z Series Sport Coupe | eBay

[EhlersRS]

This is a beautiful car! I'd love to own one of the Vintage Z's someday, but that's way out of my budget! I'm going to contact Jim Frederick just in case he wants to add another Vintage Z to his Z Mecca collection.

Robert S.

[26th-Z]

This is HLS30-04295. Super interesting - $35,000 - sale we have not seen in some time. Take a good look at the photographs. You will see things that were typical of the restorations however not exactly correct to model year. That's all part of the story. The seller incorrectly states that these cars (approximately 37 of them) were "factory" restored. No they weren't. The restorations were made by four private southern California Z-car specialists under contract to Nissan; the most prominent being Pierre Z.

[EhlersRS]

Carl Beck added this car (HLS30-04295) to the Vintage Z Register this month:

IZCC Vintage Z Car Register (CZCR)

Robert S.

[ollie]

As one who went through an extensive and exhaustive restoration, which will never be considered "concours" as it does not have the original block, or exhaust, I'm curious to see where this lands. At $35K I would have been very interested although the journey was pretty fun. I suppose that although the body and interiour on mine is 100% stock, the car would be consdiered a "resto mod" since it has a CLSD and the L26 block, E31 head, stahl header and 1972 carbs...anyway good luck to the seller for sure and thanks to the OP for the head's up. Any guesses on the Reserve? I'm surprised that this hasn't shown up on BAT yet.

[jfa.series1]

A noticeable absence of interior photos, except for the rear deck - which looks to be incorrect cut pile carpeting and no sign of the luggage straps. I believe all the engine bay hose clamps should be yellow zinc plated - some of the details Chris has suggested. The poster has started the auction at $35k with a higher reserve (?) to be met.

[26th-Z]

I was thinking; while we're talking about it, a couple of references to the archives would be good. Some seriously entertaining reading here:

This one discusses the appropriateness of the term "factory", the 'F' word; http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/m...d-72-240z.html

Here's the thread I started about my research into the Vintage Z / Z Store program; http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/m...on-progam.html

And another early thread of interest; http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/o...red-240zs.html

Enjoy!

[jonathanrussell]

My guess is that the auction never reaches the reserve and that the seller is using ebay as an advertising mechanism to gather potential buyers.

From what I have read there are lots of detail differences between these restorations and what was original. Seems like I remember that they simply didn't have access to new luggage straps so left them off of these restorations (not sure whether that means some or all). I agree that the hose clamps originally had a yellow chromate finish. My recollection of buying clamps from nissan during the 90s is that they were white zinc, which may explain why the restored cars had white zinic clamps.

Beautiful car. Will be a nice addition to someone's collection. I would rather have #13, however.

[S30Driver]

I tend to agree with jonathan, I won't be surprised if it goes past 50k though. The program cars don't come up for sale very often.

I hope Jay Leno gets it!

[26th-Z]

I just whipped through my collection of Vintage Z photographs and none of them show luggage straps. I don't think I noticed that before. The rear deck carpeting seems to be correct depending on where the tool kit lids are on the chassis, but no luggage straps on any of them. I do have a series of photographs of a car that was claimed to be a left-over, unfinished, partially assembled Vintage Z. Luggage straps are in the collection of parts that were photographed however they are not in part bags so who knows if they were replacement parts or originals.

[motorman7]

A noticeable absence of interior photos, except for the rear deck - which looks to be incorrect cut pile carpeting and no sign of the luggage straps. I believe all the engine bay hose clamps should be yellow zinc plated - some of the details Chris has suggested. The poster has started the auction at $35k with a higher reserve (?) to be met.

Much more is ‘incorrect’ beyond just the luggage straps. Wrong fan, no radio, wrong choke knob, screws missing from door panels, Air cleaner should probably not have decals, seats are aftermarket material, hose clamps should be round head-not hex and yellow plate (as mentioned). Anyway, I hate to pick at such a beautiful car, and silver has to be my favorite early color. I’d take the car in a minute if I had the room and the cash. I hope it goes for a nice price. Boy, I love that silver paint.

[Carl Beck]

I would guess that if this car sells - it will be purchased by someone that wants one of the 37 Vintage Z's - not someone looking for a 240Z to compete in a Judged Event, entered in a Stock Class.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[DatsunZGuy]

This is a very nice example and I hope it commands a fair price!

I have to say that I am disappointed and not surprised by some of the negative comments. There is significant amount of nitpicking of faults and pointing out of “non-original” aspects of this automobile.

Having been a member of this forum for over a dozen years, sadly little has changed. There seems to be a prevailing tendency to over-criticize a vehicle and swiftly pass judgment. This type of attitude is the reason that I rarely visit this site, and have kept my over three decades and half a dozen 240Zs of experience to myself. I use to post often in the beginning, but seen this site really go downhill over the years.

Perhaps this pointing out of faults is some type of therapy and display of passive aggressiveness to make one feel better about their inferior vehicle to the one to posted on the forum for public scrutiny.

Take a moment to step back and enjoy to vehicle for what it is. Sure it is not a Uber Grand Master Gold Medallion winner or whatever. Nonetheless, it is a fine car and its sale will help increase respect to the cars make well all hold so dear.

Rant over!

[AZ-240z]

I am enjoying all of the comments and would be interested in this communties thoughts on Vintage Program Z-Cars. As theoretical future owners of this fine
example of the Vintage Program, would you value this car more if you modified it with all of the correct factory parts as delivered from the factory, ie., a
correct judged stock show winner? Or, do you think that this car would loose the intrinsic valuation element as it is no longer "as presented" as a Vintage Z
program car?

I think we are all motivated to value things differently depending on an individual's perspective.

We may all eventually define what is "Correct", but what is "Rignt" for these fine cars?

Dan

[motorman7]

This is a very nice example and I hope it commands a fair price!

I have to say that I am disappointed and not surprised by some of the negative comments. There is significant amount of nitpicking of faults and pointing out of “non-original” aspects of this automobile.

Having been a member of this forum for over a dozen years, sadly little has changed. There seems to be a prevailing tendency to over-criticize a vehicle and swiftly pass judgment. This type of attitude is the reason that I rarely visit this site, and have kept my over three decades and half a dozen 240Zs of experience to myself. I use to post often in the beginning, but seen this site really go downhill over the years.

Perhaps this pointing out of faults is some type of therapy and display of passive aggressiveness to make one feel better about their inferior vehicle to the one to posted on the forum for public scrutiny.

Take a moment to step back and enjoy to vehicle for what it is. Sure it is not a Uber Grand Master Gold Medallion winner or whatever. Nonetheless, it is a fine car and its sale will help increase respect to the cars make well all hold so dear.

Rant over!

My bad, Sorry. It's this starvation diet that is making me irritable. I really need a carne asada burrito.

[Hardway]

I will add my .02 here since I have a series-1 silver 240z. The Z in the auction is beautiful in every respect. Yeah, there are some incorrect details we can all point out but I agree that whoever is buying it is to own one of the commemorative Z’s, not have a true concourse level car. That in itself makes these an outlier on the price spectrum. It could easily hit $40K but I think $50K is a bit much. Any other Z restored to this level, correct hose clamps or not usually run $20K - $25K.

Personally, seeing the auction and examining all the pictures motivates me to get mine closer to this level. Seeing just how great the end result can be just puts a smile on my face. My car is easily 90% there with all the mechanical stuff rebuilt, painted, and detailed. I am only a quality paint job and some small details away from having an “A” level car. Plus, mine has most of its factory correct hose clamps already restored

[AZ-240z]

My bad, Sorry. It's this starvation diet that is making me irritable. I really need a carne asada burrito.

Rich, no need to beat yourself up. I think many of us are starved, but for those posts where we used to discuss all of those NOS parts that
enhanced the originality of our restorations.

Kats, Chris, Carl, and, yes, even Alan mentored me through there posts to complete my car to total stock originality. And you have one of the
nicest survivors of an early Z in the country sitting in your garage. That makes it very difficult for us not to comment when we notice exceptions
incorporated in Vintage Program cars, some possibly purposeful given the availability of parts and current safety standards.

Dan

[zed2]

I see no mention that the vehicle has the 4-speed. (I recall that at least one vehicle was delivered with a 5-speed.)
Keith

[jtmader]

Being an owner of a Vintage Z ('72 lime) I can really appreciate the beauty in this 1970 Vintage Z. I took the time to "correct" as some of you call the "issues" with the Vintage Z's. Working with a beautiful base car like that (and mine) makes the few "tweaks" I had to do very minor. None of the Vintage Z's can be considered stock....they were meant to be close but not 100%. Most if not all do not have luggage straps and a lot (mine included) did not come with radio's. I later installed a stock AM/FM radio. I personally hope it sells for $50K++ as it will bode well for all the VZ owners out there.

[jonathanrussell]

It could be argued that the 37 Vintage Z cars have their own “originality” stamp. We might find, at least for the sake of value, that as time progresses it becomes important to leave the nuances of the Vintage Z cars as they were delivered.

I for one think that it was a really great thing that Nissan sanctioned such an endeavor and executed it in such a high-quality way. While yes, there are differences from original, the cars were restored to a very high level. What a unique thing for a car company to do. Has any car company ever done anything similar? I assume so but can’t think of an example. BMW rebuilt one amazing 2002tii. Does anyone know of other similar examples?

[psdenno]

It could be argued that the 37 Vintage Z cars have their own “originality” stamp. We might find, at least for the sake of value, that as time progresses it becomes important to leave the nuances of the Vintage Z cars as they were delivered.

I think that's a healthy way to look at the Vintage Zs. They are a subtype unto themselves and really shouldn't be compared to restored Zs or low miles "barn find" Zs. Just like a "real" Scarab V8 Z conversion carries a premium price over a homemade V8 conversion, so should the Vintage Z program cars.

They aren't stock, they weren't refurbished on an assembly line in Japan. They were a marketing move built to represent, and remind the US market of, the spirit of the original Z, warts and all. The fact that they differ slightly from the originals that rolled off the assembly line a couple decades earlier makes them slightly unique and maybe justifies the premium price to those who value the intangible nature of the product.

When offered for sale, the Vintage Zs were a second chance for buyers to own a "new" early Z. Buying an early Z off the showroom floor was a heady experience. I know.
Dennis

[xs10shl]

Just based on my experiences buying, selling, and following the classic car market - for all cars that are not individually known for winning a race, or some other historic achievement, when it comes to price, image in the eye of the beholder is everything. Even for the most pedestrian makes and models, I've found it astonishing at the list of intangibles that add value: a car that can differentiate itself just because it is a Ferrari, or even one that isn't but was assembled at the Ferrari factory; a car that was in some way involved in a movie, ad campaign, or otherwise; a car that was owned by a famous individual or actor; and more.

For the time being, these "Factory commissioned" cars have value above and beyond what a typical concours restoration brings, if only because of their position in history. But like all things with intangible value-adds, as more Z cars get restored to factory original, we may see a change in the pecking order, as more collectors educate themselves with what is period correct, and what isn't, and decide for themselves what is more important.

[ollie]

Well just like that, either the seller got cold feet, an offer came from outside ebay or he / she has found another method of marketing the car as the auction has been ended with no bids. Hardway made a note about full restoration cars selling for $20 - $25K, I suppose there are varying levels of restorations, however given the cost of NOS parts, shopped out body work, machine shop rates and other items such as chrome and plating services, a full on restoration of a solid foundation car can easily eclipse $50k. That owner would of course be way long on what the market would bear however I keep a half eye open and have seen a number of cars over the past 2 years sell in the $40K range. Given the attraction of the Vintage Z program, I bet this car went for around $50k.

[HS30-H]

Kats, Chris, Carl, and, yes, even Alan mentored me through there posts to complete my car to total stock originality.

Thanks for the back-handed compliment, but I'd like to see you mention Mike Brame in this context. We don't see him around on this forum all that much lately, but his contributions on such topics are in the archives and are a valuable reference.

And Chris Wenzel wrote THE definitive document on the VZ Program cars, as far as I'm concerned. I've even given a copy to a VZ Program car owner who lives in Japan.





Looks like we finally got the "Factory" thing sorted out, didn't we....?

[26th-Z]

I'm really happy to see this thread go in this direction. The comments have been wonderful. I share your opinions of the Vintage Zs, they are close to me, as Alan pointed out. Thanks Alan. When I linked the threads from the archives, I read them, allowing my thoughts to wonder back to those times. Yes, we finally got the F-word sorted out!

Personally, I look to the Vintage Zs as a standard for restoration. High or low standard is irrelevant; just a standard. An expectation of results if one approaches a restoration in a certain manner.

So, the auction closed?!!?? Carl? Do you know what happened?

[Z fan]

This is a very nice example and I hope it commands a fair price!

I have to say that I am disappointed and not surprised by some of the negative comments. There is significant amount of nitpicking of faults and pointing out of “non-original” aspects of this automobile.

Having been a member of this forum for over a dozen years, sadly little has changed. There seems to be a prevailing tendency to over-criticize a vehicle and swiftly pass judgment. This type of attitude is the reason that I rarely visit this site, and have kept my over three decades and half a dozen 240Zs of experience to myself. I use to post often in the beginning, but seen this site really go downhill over the years.

Perhaps this pointing out of faults is some type of therapy and display of passive aggressiveness to make one feel better about their inferior vehicle to the one to posted on the forum for public scrutiny.

Take a moment to step back and enjoy to vehicle for what it is. Sure it is not a Uber Grand Master Gold Medallion winner or whatever. Nonetheless, it is a fine car and its sale will help increase respect to the cars make well all hold so dear.

Rant over!

I also share the above lines, and add IMO , these cars can not be compare/judge like a FERRARI or JAG , they are not in that league .

[xs10shl]

. . . these cars can not be compare/judge like a FERRARI or JAG , they are not in that league

. . . yet, . I'd add that having owned both Ferrari and Jag marques, I feel there are plenty of pedestrian and simply "not-good" models in both marques, but even those are generally held in higher regard than they objectively deserve, based solely on their sharing a badge with other, truly superb models.

[jtmader]

The VZ is gone from EBay due to the fact that it was sold. Actually I thought about "throwing my hat into the ring" for a period of time yesterday but backed off when I knew a Z friend of mine was working out an off-EBay deal with the seller. Congrats to my friend and although I don't know the exact selling price I do know it was over $40K.

[AZ-240z]

Thanks for the back-handed compliment, but I'd like to see you mention Mike Brame in this context. We don't see him around on this forum all that much lately, but his contributions on such topics are in the archives and are a valuable reference.

And Chris Wenzel wrote THE definitive document on the VZ Program cars, as far as I'm concerned. I've even given a copy to a VZ Program car owner who lives in Japan.





Looks like we finally got the "Factory" thing sorted out, didn't we....?

Thanks for mentioning Mike Brame, Alan. An oversight that should really include a number of others who have contributed mightily
to our discussions of the unadulterated Z.

And Alan, from someone who appreciates your contributions to my Zeducation, the backhanded compliment, I hope, puts a smile
on your face, and on the faces of all those who have debated with you on this forum.

[Diseazd]

His initials wouldn't be RJ would it? Just what you need Jeff.....another frickin' Datsun!!!

[Carl Beck]

So, the auction closed?!!?? Carl? Do you know what happened?

No. The seller contacted me a couple weeks ago. He said the owner wanted to get it on the Vintage Z Register as it was going to be sold. I ask him to send me the necessary info - VIN/Engine Serial Number/color/location/owner name etc. Plus some pictures.

I ask him if they had set a price - and he replied that they had not yet decided on number, but that the owner was in no real hurry to sell it. He sent pictures of the car etc.

Next thing I know - it's on EBay. I do know three or four collectors that were interested - but no one seems to bid until the last few minutes. Then bang it is removed from EBay and sold.

In my opinion if they took anything less than $60K - they should have let the auction run.

FWIW,
Carl

[Diseazd]

I heard it sold for $40,000.00......from a good source.

[Carl Beck]

Then it was not Sold - it was stolen!! I suppose we well see it back on Bay with a BIN of $78K. Or auctioned at next year's Amelia…

Carl

[gnosez]

I agree that these "marketing produced 240Zs" are special all in themselves and IMHO they should be left as-is with all the little quirks they came with.

And while some may want car # 13, I want cars # 6, 8 & 14 (in the state of condition they are right now and not as they came from the "Factory").

[Z fan]

Then it was not Sold - it was stolen!! I suppose we well see it back on Bay with a BIN of $78K. Or auctioned at next year's Amelia…

Carl

Amelia , not too fond of the Datsun marque , here the only one on that lawn auction block back in 07 //// 1967 Datsun 1600/2000 Roadster | Vintage Motor Cars at Amelia Island 2007 | RM AUCTIONS

[xs10shl]

Given the sudden interest in Japanese cars, I have a feeling we'll see a Nissan or Datsun in some form or another at Amelia.

[Hardway]

Congrats to the seller and the buyer of the Z. Sounds like everyone is happy on both sides of the table. I agree that as time goes on more and more very pristine examples of Japanese sports cars will show up and be accepted on the concours circuit. In the grand scheme of collector cars the classic Z's still have something to offer for everyone at just about any price point. At any given time there are plenty of examples for sale in all levels of condition around the country. Granted, finding one close to you may be a challenge but if you are willing to travel, ship, or drive it home from wherever, you can get one.

[Diseazd]

Congrats to the seller and the buyer of the Z. Sounds like everyone is happy on both sides of the table. I agree that as time goes on more and more very pristine examples of Japanese sports cars will show up and be accepted on the concours circuit. In the grand scheme of collector cars the classic Z's still have something to offer for everyone at just about any price point. At any given time there are plenty of examples for sale in all levels of condition around the country. Granted, finding one close to you may be a challenge but if you are willing to travel, ship, or drive it home from wherever, you can get one.

That about says it all HardWay.......well said!

[Mike]

Very nice car, I saved the source of this posting so it can be referenced later, even the images for reference.

[Mike]

Diseazed, please make sure the new owner knows about this site. Would love to see his story posted.

[Fred Sigarto]

Definitely a beauty, don't care for the mudflaps though, guess you gotta like em or not.

[Carl Beck]

Amelia - the last Roadster sold there for $50K last year. Keith Crain is one of the Judges at Amelia, and he is also one of the Vintage Z Owners. There is little doubt in my mind that Series I VZ would bring bids above $65K there. Taken to Monterey next year - who knows.

One problem in establishing values for Collector Quality 240Z's - is they tend to trade hands at private sales. Then the general market is left wondering?

[Carl Beck]

……. I agree that as time goes on more and more very pristine examples of Japanese sports cars will show up and be accepted on the concours circuit.

To a large extent - they already are or would be accepted if entered. The problem is getting the owners of the very finest examples - to enter them. It costs the owners of any of the cars shown at these events a significant amount of money, to be there with their cars. For the guys that are showing their multi-million dollar Classics - the cost of showing up is relatively insignificant. For many people that just put $60K+ in the restoration of an early Z …the additional expense of attending one of the higher end Concours Events just doesn't seem worth it.

Like the saying goes - "you can't win if you don't enter". So hats off to the few guys that do -

Better, perhaps, than new ? Jeffrey Mader?s 1972 Datsun 240Z | Hemmings Daily


https://www.facebook.com/PinehurstConcours

FWIW,
Carl B.

[Z fan]

.




















Like the saying goes - "you can't win if you don't enter". So hats off to the few guys that do -




Carl B.[/QUOTE]

Attending high profile events/shows IMO does not equal high dollars at premium auctions, the Z lacks the sizzle on that plate.

[jtmader]

Thanks for putting the Hemming's link up Carl.....appreciate you thinking of that!

[Zulaytr]

Carl,

Nice Facebook reference too! I understand that in the next issue of the ZCCM there will be an article on taking a Z to a Concours. The intent of that article is to get more of that level of Z's to one. They are out there, they might need some kick starting to enter. The door has opened from a lot of these events to extend invitations for entry.

[Z fan]

Carl,

Nice Facebook reference too! I understand that in the next issue of the ZCCM there will be an article on taking a Z to a Concours. The intent of that article is to get more of that level of Z's to one. They are out there, they might need some kick starting to enter. The door has opened from a lot of these events to extend invitations for entry.

Nice to see that this is happening , the Z will be a low buck contender among those high/priceless classics , but hey it will be rubbing elbows and that is a good thing.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Jeff/Bob:
Glad to share the information with all Z Car enthusiasts.

I believe that having high quality Z's at high end events, reminds most people attending, just what an amazingly beautiful car they are. Stunning as they were when first introduced; and appreciated as beautiful art today. One definition of a "Classic" is; a thing of lasting or timeless beauty.

We can ask anyone that has taken their Z to one of these events, and they will tell us that the Z always draws a lot of attention - and very favorable comments from former owners, as well as people that really wanted one 40 years ago.

A line from "Silence OF The Lamb" comes to mind - it went something like:
"What do people covet?" - - "They covet what they see".

I think that is a killer line - but it rings true. Put a 240Z in front of the people with the ability to buy very expensive Z's - - and it will provide the motivation for some of them to do so.

I am no longer surprised when I meet Collectors with old V12 Ferrari, rare high dollar Porsches etc - that also have a Datsun 240Z in their collection. They recognize the Z for the Sports/GT that it is and they don't seem to have any hang-up about the price. If anything they seem to enjoy the "reverse-snob-appeal" of appreciating a capable and beautiful car - for no other reason than that.


FWIW,
Carl B.

[Diseazd]

Well put Carl.....something about the shape, the smell or the way they drive and handle. Some nights, I just mix a drink, go to the garage and sit in them. At Cars and Coffee or at open shows, they always attract so much attention.....more so than much more expensive rides.

[EhlersRS]

I really enjoyed this discussion spurred on by the sale of another Vintage Z. This is the first Vintage Z I've seen for sale since I was introduced to the early Z's. Even though the Vintage Z's are not completely accurate in terms of originality, they showcase a high level of restoration that many of us aspire to reach with our cars. Obviously the Vintage Z's are in a special class of their own and help to preserve the heritage of a great car, but it's also our individual and collective efforts that will help preserve this car for future generations. Again, great discussion!

Robert S.