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Thread: Spindle pin removal tool survey

  1. #1
    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Default Spindle pin removal tool survey

    For those who have used a spindle pin removal tool, I have a few questions. First, did the tool work, and if so, how hard was it to get the pin out? Please give tool details as well. What worked well, and what could be improved? Did the tool have a bearing, greased washers, or ??? The reason I ask is that I'm about to make my own removal tool, but I want to build a better mouse trap, so to speak. Rather than using hardware store all-thread, I was considering buying acme thread rod to make the tool. I figure that 3/4" - 6 acme rod will make the tool much more efficient than standard threaded rod. A friend just loaned me a tool he bought online and it worked for him, but he said it was a real pain and the rod twisted under load. With a nice fat acme thread and a thrust bearing, the tool *should* be better and make pin removal a breeze.

    I have only done the pin removal the hard way. After heating and beating, I cut the pins off and used a huge shop press to extract the center of the pins from the knuckles. It was a horrible job and rather dangerous. That was all long before anybody came up with the puller tool and I haven't had to remove any since, until now. I have two sets that I need to remove and I want to make it as easy as possible on myself. I like good quality tools that work well and last forever. I will try the tool I borrowed to do one set, but I am not impressed with the design and want to improve it for the future.

    So, does the tool NEED to be better, or am I wasting my time? I figure that if I buy 6 feet of acme rod, acme nuts and some pipe, and I can make at least 5 tools and sell them to pay for my materials. The acme thread rod isn't cheap, but at about $25 per tool, I could make it work. I can get the standard threaded rod for only a few bucks, but if acme is the way to go, I want to do it right.

    If I do decide to go this route, is there any interest in a ~ $25 removal tool?
    Jeff
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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    I will be happy to pay you that much right now, and even in advance if it would help you get started. I think 25 dollars for a useful tool like that is darn good value for money.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Thanks Stephen. I am thrashing to get my 260 ready for a 25:25:25 (25 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds) race right now, so I will probably order the supplies I need for the tools in mid-October if I decide to go forward with that design.
    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 09-14-2011 at 07:41 AM.
    Jeff
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    Supporting Member Zedyone_kenobi's Avatar
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    Well if you do, PM me and I can paypal you my 25 dollars to help you along.
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
    93.9% done and getting better every day
    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
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    jeff
    In my experience with doing several extractions, the failures were all related to insufficient connection strength where the tool attaches to the 12mm threads of the spindle pin. I mean you either rip the threads right off, or the threadsert threads in the tool gets pulled apart. Its not a matter of pulling power from the threaded rod.
    -----------------------------------------
    Jim
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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input Jim. I will experiment with the design to maximize the connection strength.
    Jeff
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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    I got a tool which utilizes the standard all-thread. I can say that it works well if you take it slow and add LOTS of heat to the strut casting. I broke my first all-thread from a combination of being too ambitious and slightly vague instructions. Turn the nut a little bit at a time and make sure the pin moves. Again, heat the strut casting like you're trying to melt the thing, I used MAPP gas. Of course, penetrating oil is a prerequisit for this job, but you already know that part!
    2/74 260Z

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Thanks Leon. Do you think an acme thread and bearing would improve the tool, or not?
    Jeff
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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    It may improve the tool, but that is a qualitative statement. I'm not sure how much of an improvement it will be, and if it's worth the costs. The failure mode of my all-thread was actually at the nut end, the all-thread simply snapped off! The bar itself failed, the threads were just fine. I was actually able to reuse that one after cleaning up the threads a bit. I applied a healthy amount of grease to the tool as well, before use. So, judging by my experience, the only way the acme thread would improve the design is if the threaded rod itself is inherently stronger than the standard all-thread. I don't think I noticed any twisting, that is what the grease is for.
    2/74 260Z

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    What size all-thread was your tool? The one my friend bought only has about a 5/8" all-thread. The wall is pretty thin where it is tapped for the M12x1.25. I was thinking 3/4", but it could be even larger.
    Jeff
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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    What size all-thread was your tool? The one my friend bought only has about a 5/8" all-thread. The wall is pretty thin where it is tapped for the M12x1.25. I was thinking 3/4", but it could be even larger.
    Something like that, I'll measure when I'm home. You are correct, the wall is thin where the M12 hole is tapped and that is exactly where failure occurred.
    2/74 260Z

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    I'm in if your doing these. just PM or E-me
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    Will do Steve. So far, it sounds like there is some room for improvement in the available pullers. If that's the case, I will likely go forward with my idea. I just need to get as much feedback as possible so I can fix all of the weaknesses in the design.
    Jeff
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    Registered User Mike W's Avatar
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    So I purchased one of these from a forum member before I did these for a third time and it worked like a charm. This was about 9 months ago but I can't recall the name of the person I purchased this from

    Apparently the design has changed over time and has gotten a lot beefier. The one I received used 1" all thread with a hole drilled into one end and a helicoil installed that matched the threads of the spindle pins (same as lug nuts as I recall 12 x 1.25 I believe). It also used a flared pipe over the all thread with a bearing on the nut end to keep everything moving correctly.

    Mine came out like butter and it worked so well the pins were re-usable.

    I can take a few pictures of the tool if anyone wants to see the details. Just let me now and I will post them.

    Mike.

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    I made a few of the tools. A couple of members here I sold to. Seppy72(?) and Marty Rogen.

    The materials I made them with are pretty much off the shelf parts.

    metric all-thread 12m x1.25
    1 metric nut
    2 mag wheel lugnuts with open end 12m x1.25 napa
    pipe
    thrust bearing

    The shank of the lugnut will fit into the thrust bearing, the thrust bearing will ride on the end of the pipe.

    I used a few other things like a bronze bushing and washers, but not needed when using the thrust bearing.


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    The all-thread rod I've seen availably commercially (read "hardware or big box home improvement store") is crap. It's nickel plated low carbon steel and is, well, crap. I'm not surprised that people are snapping it or pulling threads out.

    If you want to try some proof of concept stuff, I think I've got some acme threaded rod in the shop. Probably 3/4-8 or 3/4-16. Don't know the composition, but I can guarantee it's a stronger alloy than the all-thread from the H/W store!

    About how much would you need?

    What are you going to do for an acme nut?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    With a nice fat acme thread and a thrust bearing, the tool *should* be better and make pin removal a breeze.
    Haha! Yeah... Good luck with that! Must be Pennsylvania salted roads, or something, but I don't care how nice your thrust bearing is... The pins I've removed weren't coming out in one piece.

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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    The all-thread I snapped was hardened steel. No matter what kind of all-thread is used, the technique must be correct otherwise you'll be cursing another broken tool.
    2/74 260Z

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    beandip beandip's Avatar
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    $25.00 you will find is CHEEP the ones I was loaning out were selling on ebay for around
    $100.00 . That is for the final design. Remember that to use polly bushings you must either
    spread the control arm to allow for the extra length of the polly or cut the bushing down. You
    can use the puller to spread the arm . Simply use two nuts and two washers . Insert the all
    thread into the control arm and when it comes to the opening add a washer then a nut.
    Continue inserting the all thread adding another nut then another washer. continue inserting
    threaded shaft into the second half of the control arm. Now run the nuts out so the washers contact the two halves . Now measure the distance between the two halves. Tighten on a
    nut and spread the opening 1/8'' ONLY. Now when you release the tension it will spring back
    1/16'' . This is enough to allow the polly and all components to go together.
    I'd rather die while I am living than live while I am dieing. CZC 1887 IZCC 12602 Member of NorthWest Z Car Club

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    Boat Anchor Repairman Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonV View Post
    The all-thread I snapped was hardened steel. No matter what kind of all-thread is used, the technique must be correct otherwise you'll be cursing another broken tool.
    Yeah, those spindle pins can truly be a pain.

    What I'm saying is that I've got some acme threaded rod if he wants to give it a try, but I can tell you from experience that I've run across some spindles that weren't coming out in one piece using a "puller style" tool no matter what kind of all-thread you used.

    Sometimes the forces holding the spindles in are greater than what the threaded ends of the spindles themselves can withstand. If that's the case, the spindle itself will yield before it will budge. BTDT.

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    I hear you Captain Obvious! My '78 was stuck so bad that a pneumatic-hydraulic commercial grade shop press was maxed out just to get the center portions out of the knuckles (and my car is 99.9% rust free!). I know that there will be some pins that cannot be removed with any puller, but like C-clamps or coil spring compressors, regular threads are not the thing to use. Acme threads work far better with less wear and better power transmission.
    Jeff
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    Registered User LeonV's Avatar
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    As I said, the technique must be correct. Lots of penetrating oil, LOTS of heat and turning the nut a bit at a time. Some tapping from the other end and around the casting may help as well. I'm sure there will be some pins that still won't come out, but with patience most pins can be taken out in one piece.

    I'm not against the acme thread, it's just not going to be a magic solution. It'll probably just shift the failure mode from the threaded rod to the threads on the spindle pin. Patience, technique, and more patience will still very much be required.
    Last edited by LeonV; 09-15-2011 at 10:50 AM.
    2/74 260Z

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Not tool design related, but has anybody tried an impact on the nut to get the pin started? I know that the rod will quickly get in the way once the pin is partially out, but I'm wondering if the impact action would help it slide easier.
    Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    For those who have used a spindle pin removal tool, I have a few questions. First, did the tool work, and if so, how hard was it to get the pin out? Please give tool details as well. What worked well, and what could be improved? Did the tool have a bearing, greased washers, or ??? The reason I ask is that I'm about to make my own removal tool, but I want to build a better mouse trap, so to speak. Rather than using hardware store all-thread, I was considering buying acme thread rod to make the tool. I figure that 3/4" - 6 acme rod will make the tool much more efficient than standard threaded rod. A friend just loaned me a tool he bought online and it worked for him, but he said it was a real pain and the rod twisted under load. With a nice fat acme thread and a thrust bearing, the tool *should* be better and make pin removal a breeze.

    I have only done the pin removal the hard way. After heating and beating, I cut the pins off and used a huge shop press to extract the center of the pins from the knuckles. It was a horrible job and rather dangerous. That was all long before anybody came up with the puller tool and I haven't had to remove any since, until now. I have two sets that I need to remove and I want to make it as easy as possible on myself. I like good quality tools that work well and last forever. I will try the tool I borrowed to do one set, but I am not impressed with the design and want to improve it for the future.

    So, does the tool NEED to be better, or am I wasting my time? I figure that if I buy 6 feet of acme rod, acme nuts and some pipe, and I can make at least 5 tools and sell them to pay for my materials. The acme thread rod isn't cheap, but at about $25 per tool, I could make it work. I can get the standard threaded rod for only a few bucks, but if acme is the way to go, I want to do it right.

    If I do decide to go this route, is there any interest in a ~ $25 removal tool?
    For anyone that is interested in this thread. Greased washers instead of
    using a bearing IS A WAIST OF TIME. Also pulling these pins is not always
    possible , some are so rusted in place that a 20 ton press cannot remove
    them. Out of the 80+ that were pulled with the pullers I had to loan. There
    was only two that actually broke. A few just wore out. NOW The allthread
    that you find at Home Depot or any of the centers like that , is NOT
    HARDENED STEEL, and it will fail in short order. You will find that there is a
    great deal of pressure pulling things out and you need to use quality materials
    when building one. Find a machine supply store for the all thread and hardened nuts. The last pullers I had was so tuff that it would pull the end off the
    pin before the puller would brake. Also use lots of grease on the threads. Plus after the wedge pin is removed use some PB Blaster and let it soak overnight.
    the helps.
    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    Not tool design related, but has anybody tried an impact on the nut to get the pin started? I know that the rod will quickly get in the way once the pin is partially out, but I'm wondering if the impact action would help it slide easier.
    I took Blue's suggestion on the AtlanticZ site and beat the pin back and forth with a hammer to get it started, using an old mag wheel lug nut (same thread as the pin) on the ends to save the threads (at least that's what was proposed but apparently he actually cut it out with a Sawzall). Squirted PB Blaster in the lock pin hole and around each end and just worked it back and forth. It got looser and looser with each beating (and I do mean "beating"). I did destroy a couple of old lug nuts though, in the process.

    After that, I didn't have a puller, so I used a long bolt with the end ground down to a blunt point to save the threads and beat it the rest of the way out.

    FWIW, I also found that one big problem with beating the pin out, which the puller doesn't have, is that if it's stuck in the bushing (not the strut housing or knuckle), the rubber of the bushing will pull it back in the hole after you get it moved. If you're replacing the bushing, you can just use a torch and burn the rubber to get it out.

    But that's off-topic - The puller holds the pin in place after it moves so you won't have that problem. But people should be aware that the pin can get just as stuck in the inner bushing as in the cast iron housing. At least one of mine was. PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench for all pin surfaces.

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    Rust Free'ish zKars's Avatar
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    John Coffee I believed mentioned that he used a pnuematic hammer, the biggest one he could buy, with a pinpoint tip, to hammer spindle pins out. He claimed great success.

    Regarding the use of ACME thread, I would use the finest thread pitch I can find to apply the greatest tension with the least torque. And heat. lots of heat......
    -----------------------------------------
    Jim
    73 240Z HLS30 149331
    69 510 PL510 77603

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    but like C-clamps or coil spring compressors, regular threads are not the thing to use. Acme threads work far better with less wear and better power transmission.
    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not poo-pooing the idea. I agree that acme threads are a better choice than standard threads for an application like this. I just came in here to offer you some lengths of acme threaded rod for the cost of shipping if you wanted to mess around with the design before you spent real money on material of known lineage.

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    I am going on the cheap an dhoping for the best. I bought some 5/8 washers and a large steel nut, $4. These will slide over the spindle pin. My hope is to remove the spindle pin nut, slide on the washers, put the nut baclk on and tighten with a ratchet and breaker bar. As I tighten the rust seal will hopefully give it up. I fgure I will only get a couple hundred pounds of torque. If I need a ton of torque this won't work. I will hit with penetrating oil and I am hoping if I get some movement I can switch to the other end and do it again. The washers will push up against the control arm and the spindle can fit through the opening. It sounds like some had had success with this method. Once the rust seal is broken and the spindle starts to move, does it get easier or is it a bear the whole way out?

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    I had to air-hammer mine ALL the way out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
    I am going on the cheap an dhoping for the best. I bought some 5/8 washers and a large steel nut, $4. These will slide over the spindle pin. My hope is to remove the spindle pin nut, slide on the washers, put the nut baclk on and tighten with a ratchet and breaker bar. As I tighten the rust seal will hopefully give it up. I fgure I will only get a couple hundred pounds of torque. If I need a ton of torque this won't work. I will hit with penetrating oil and I am hoping if I get some movement I can switch to the other end and do it again. The washers will push up against the control arm and the spindle can fit through the opening. It sounds like some had had success with this method. Once the rust seal is broken and the spindle starts to move, does it get easier or is it a bear the whole way out?
    We tried this as sell. All we did was ruin the threads. Part of the problem, in our case, was the cross-pins had raised burrs on the spindles which caused too much interference to get them out easily.

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
    I am going on the cheap an dhoping for the best. I bought some 5/8 washers and a large steel nut, $4. These will slide over the spindle pin. My hope is to remove the spindle pin nut, slide on the washers, put the nut baclk on and tighten with a ratchet and breaker bar. As I tighten the rust seal will hopefully give it up. I fgure I will only get a couple hundred pounds of torque. If I need a ton of torque this won't work. I will hit with penetrating oil and I am hoping if I get some movement I can switch to the other end and do it again. The washers will push up against the control arm and the spindle can fit through the opening. It sounds like some had had success with this method. Once the rust seal is broken and the spindle starts to move, does it get easier or is it a bear the whole way out?
    I tried that once. It ripped the threads right off the pin. It wasn't pretty. The idea behind the puller is that the puller to pin joint is more or less rigid and the wear and tear happens within the threads of the puller itself. Plus, the puller's threads are much larger and stronger.

    To update the original thread, I will hopefully be moving forward soon. I still have many little projects to finish up before tackling the puller, but I'm hoping to get the order in within a few weeks. Stay tuned.
    Jeff
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    Built 5 pullers for a total cost of $136. using hardened 3/4 steel threaded rods, 2 washers, two nuts and 3/4 pipe with a union. Cost also includes tap.

    I set aside a second nut so I can lock the first one down when I'm trying to remove the spindle pin from the threaded rod.
    if a little knowledge can make you dangerous, I'm a little dangerous

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    Where do you get the 12mm all thread from? I assume you connect the threaded rod to the spindle pin but I haven't been able to find a 12mm connector or all thread.
    I tried to remove the spindle pin nut, didn't have good leverage (car on the ground) and not much time but with a breaker bar I couldn't even get it to budge. Sprayed all with pb blaster will try tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
    Where do you get the 12mm all thread from? I assume you connect the threaded rod to the spindle pin but I haven't been able to find a 12mm connector or all thread.
    I tried to remove the spindle pin nut, didn't have good leverage (car on the ground) and not much time but with a breaker bar I couldn't even get it to budge. Sprayed all with pb blaster will try tomorrow.
    You won't have any better luck using M12 all-thread. You need to use a larger thread to get enough strength to press out the spindle. The other poster said he is using 3/4" threaded shaft. I figure he drilled and threaded one end with the M12 thread and then threads it onto the M12 thread on the spindle.

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    Spindle Pin Success!! OK I could not find the tool so I wanted to try the washer idea, only I did not have enough washers. I thought what could act like the washers -how about box wrenches. So I strung some box wrenches (and a tube bender) over the spindle as it moved along. Just adding another wrench as the spindle pin moved. It did get easier as it came further out. Once I had enough spindle out I used my lawn mower spark plug wrench. Rube Goldberg would be proud.

    I must say I was surprised how good the spindles looked. After my ugly wheel cylinders I was expecting the worse but they look like they can go back in and I won't need to use the new ones.
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    When it's time to put them back in, make sure they will go in with only hand pressure like they show in the service manual.

    If you feel where the lock pin fits in the spindle pin, make sure you file down any bumps the lock pins may have made when the factory installed them.
    things will only bother you if you let them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
    I must say I was surprised how good the spindles looked. After my ugly wheel cylinders I was expecting the worse but they look like they can go back in and I won't need to use the new ones.
    I don't think I've ever seen ones that clean except mine which were drenched in VersaChem 13 thread lubricant when they were installed in the early 90's. Think yours have been replaced at some point.
    Lee - 2/72 240Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenZZZ View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen ones that clean except mine which were drenched in VersaChem 13 thread lubricant when they were installed in the early 90's. Think yours have been replaced at some point.
    That is what I thought. So I haven't been truly indoctrinated to the pin zed club. I don't see how someone did the pins and didn't change out the wheel cylinders. Maybe they did, maybe the life of a pin before it rusts in is longer than a wheel cylinder corroding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
    That is what I thought. So I haven't been truly indoctrinated to the pin zed club. I don't see how someone did the pins and didn't change out the wheel cylinders. Maybe they did, maybe the life of a pin before it rusts in is longer than a wheel cylinder corroding.
    If you don't run new brake fluid into your system every two years, your wheel cylinders get pitted out... Unless you live in very low humidity.

    On the topic of the survey, I've killed one of the thrust bearings and broken the puller rod while it was loaned out. Pulled about 7 pairs of pins.
    Lee - 2/72 240Z

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    I know this is a year old thread but did anyone actually come up with a final product that "works"?

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    Ditto that newtonhubcap....I'd love to purchase one of those units.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7600346077563/
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    Look up jtburf on HybridZ.org. He's been making the tool a long time and it works well. Just be sure to use a bunch of heat.
    2/74 260Z

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    Thanks Leon....
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    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
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    OK, OK, I've been dragging my feet and haven't ordered the materials since my Z is still stored for the winter. I'll get on it and buy enough to make several. Once I get the tool built and dialed-in, I'll sell them for as cheap as possible. My goal is to improve on the ones currently available.
    Jeff
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    I'm out of town this weekend, but I will check McMaster Carr again when I return home and order the supplies. I looked at a hardware store today, but they only had standard all-thread. I think I'll go with hardened 3/4" Acme all-thread. I'll need to ask a friend to drill the rod ends on his lathe so I can tap them. For the prototype, I'll use S30 front strut thrust bearings. If the tool works as planned, I'll find a similar bearing that I can buy since I only have a few old strut bearings laying around. It sounds like I have at least a few interested "customers". I am not going to charge any more than what it costs to make them. If the first batch customers like the tools, I might make another batch, but to start with, I will just make a few.
    Jeff
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    Jeif G78, give me a buzz when and if you get it done. Am in no real hurry since just getting into my (2) 1971.

    Thanks
    Newtonhubcap (Wayne)

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtonhubcap View Post
    I know this is a year old thread but did anyone actually come up with a final product that "works"?
    Mine has been loaned around Austin for the last few years and busted and repaired a few times. Some local engineers got ahold of it and redesigned it to be "bomb proof" but I haven't seen it yet.
    Lee - 2/72 240Z

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    This is what I had made at a local machine shop. Cost around $25 plus the pipe. The end that attaches to the spindle pin is the same thread as the wheel lug studs. Worked great, I used a large boxed end wrench and hit it with a hammer to help turn the nut at the washer end. One of my rubber bushings did split down the middle and I had to saw the sleeve out of the frame.

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    Michael 11/75 - 76-280 - HLS30-281,114
    Web site -Click Here and ORIGINAL OWNERS OF THE 280Z (1975-1976 -1977 - 1978 - ONLY) REGISTRATION[

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    I have done some research and I need to rethink my plan. I was going to use 3/4"-8 acme threaded rod, but once I looked at the actual dimensions of the acme rod, I realized that there will not be enough material to drill and tap the end of the rod for the M12 spindle pin. The problem is that the acme threads are rather tall, so the root diameter is rather small. I fear it will be weak and fail where the spindle pin is threaded into the end of the rod. The simple solution is to go to 7/8" acme rod, but it can only be had in 7/8"-6. I'm worried that 6 threads per inch will make it harder to extract the spindle pins. Another issue is that the cost would go up even higher with 7/8" acme rod. The nuts, washers, and bearings all get more expensive as the rod grows.

    I am not giving up and I plan to make at least one prototype puller as soon as I figure out the best combination of parts. If I can get acme threads cut into a coupler like Michael's puller, then I can revert to a smaller acme rod and have an adapter coupler as part of the design. Acme nuts and couplers are WAY more expensive than standard threaded parts, so It would have to be custom made. The other option would be to weld the coupler to the acme rod and avoid the expense of cutting acme threads.

    Either way, my puller will use bearings and thick washers so it can be used over and over without mushrooming like Michael's puller shown above. Like I said before, I can buy a puller, but I want to engineer a better one.
    Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    I have done some research and I need to rethink my plan. I was going to use 3/4"-8 acme threaded rod, but once I looked at the actual dimensions of the acme rod, I realized that there will not be enough material to drill and tap the end of the rod for the M12 spindle pin. The problem is that the acme threads are rather tall, so the root diameter is rather small. I fear it will be weak and fail where the spindle pin is threaded into the end of the rod. The simple solution is to go to 7/8" acme rod, but it can only be had in 7/8"-6. I'm worried that 6 threads per inch will make it harder to extract the spindle pins. Another issue is that the cost would go up even higher with 7/8" acme rod. The nuts, washers, and bearings all get more expensive as the rod grows.

    I am not giving up and I plan to make at least one prototype puller as soon as I figure out the best combination of parts. If I can get acme threads cut into a coupler like Michael's puller, then I can revert to a smaller acme rod and have an adapter coupler as part of the design. Acme nuts and couplers are WAY more expensive than standard threaded parts, so It would have to be custom made. The other option would be to weld the coupler to the acme rod and avoid the expense of cutting acme threads.

    Either way, my puller will use bearings and thick washers so it can be used over and over without mushrooming like Michael's puller shown above.

    Like I said before, I can buy a puller, but I want to engineer a better one.
    FWIW,

    You can always make something better, but it doesn't mean it's a better solution. I'm not telling you not to do it but that plan sounds expensive. If you plan to remove 20 spindle pins, then maybe the economics of it come out better, but for the "casual" spindle-pin remover (i.e. a few sets in a lifetime) it may not be worth it.
    2/74 260Z

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    I hear you Leon, but I'm an engineer and I like to tinker.
    Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    I hear you Leon, but I'm an engineer and I like to tinker.
    I'm an engineer as well, hence why I made the suggestion! Sometimes we get so caught up in trying to make everything as good as possible that we lose sight of the big picture. Just trying to keep you on the right track.
    2/74 260Z

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    Huh? What? Someone want to over-engineer something? What can I do to help? Haha!

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    Hey NASA employee here!

    I work for the government! I'm here to help!

    Hahaha
    1971 240Z HLS30-38691
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    Now with 100% more DATSUN SPIRIT L28 Power
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    This is the bar the CZOT club (Austin) is playing with (part number B7MATR-NF100). Basically a 1" thick alloy steal rod, but they ordered 12" long instead of 14". Softer steal gets the threads stripped. The end of the rod is drilled/tapped to grab the end of the spindle.

    Northwest Fastener - B7M All Thread Rods - Houston Texas
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    Lee, I spent some time looking at a puller I borrowed. It is the typical cheap 3/4" all-thread with a drilled and tapped end for the M12 spindle pin. The 3/4" black steel pipe has a 3/4" coupling which just fits under the control arm flange and is a very good fit to the bushing. When you step up to a 1" all-thread, how are you dealing with the outer pipe where it presses against the bushing? I would think that it would catch the LCA flange unless it was notched on one side.

    I can take pics tonight if my post didn't make sense. Let me know.
    Jeff
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    Yeah, I see your point, the rod end would need to be machined down to something like 3/4" and the pipe would need to be reduced on the end. I'm cross posting from CZOT as our regional club message board is not public like classiczcars. The guys there are about a week away from posting photos.

    At our monthly club meeting they said it hasn't pulled the threads off, but did snap a really stuck pin in half requiring pulling from both sides.
    Last edited by GreenZZZ; 05-08-2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: spelling
    Lee - 2/72 240Z

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    Lee,

    Necking down the all-thread would work as long as it had a smooth transition between the 3/4" and 1" sections. Otherwise, it will have a stress riser and fail. You could then use a 1" steel pipe with a 1"x3/4" reducer to go against the bushing. The drilled and threaded end of the all-thread should also have a chamfer leading into the threads to match the chamfer of the spindle pin where the threads meet the shaft. At the nut end of the pipe, another 1" coupler could be used to ride against the thrust bearing.

    I took a few measurements tonight and the O.D. of the 3/4" coupler (or small end of the 1"x3/4" reducer) is ~1.5" and it is about the perfect diameter for the LCA bushing. The I.D. of a S30 front strut top bearing is a bit over 1", so that would work great for the 1" all-thread to pass through.

    I think we are getting really close to having the best possible tool. Using an acme thread *might* improve the tool, but it might make it less efficient due to the course threads. I can buy 1"-10 acme or a 1"-14 standard thread. The acme rod and nuts are about twice the cost of the standard threaded rod and nuts. I think I will go forward with the tool using this design. I might buy 12" of each type of rod and do an A to B test. By testing both thread types of exactly the same tool design, we can answer the thread question once and for all.

    If I get REALLY ambitious, I might try to remember how to use CATIA and make a CAD drawing of the tool. In the mean time, I'll draw it by hand tonight and post it as a picture. It will be crude and 2D, but will be much quicker than me trying to use CATIA for the first time in about six years. Even back then I was a complete novice user.
    Jeff
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    Wow, it's been close to 20 years since I put pencil to paper and back then, I had a drafting machine. Tonight, I just have a few triangles and an engineering scale to work with, but I'm slowly getting a drawing put together. I'll try to get enough done tonight to post something, but NO LAUGHING at my work.

    Here is the all-thread drawing. I will try to do the pipe, fittings and bearing tomorrow night. BTW, I might need to increase the length of the 3/4" diameter section of the all-thread after I measure the dimensions of a 1"x3/4" reducer.

    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 05-08-2012 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Added terrible drawing
    Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    The acme rod and nuts are about twice the cost of the standard threaded rod and nuts. I think I will go forward with the tool using this design. I might buy 12" of each type of rod and do an A to B test. By testing both thread types of exactly the same tool design, we can answer the thread question once and for all.
    Speaking of cost, I remember a point the CZOT guys made. They put a 1 1/2 hex head on the rod. The wrench was $100. Might be better to weld on a T'd pipe you can put a tire iron into instead of using a big socket or wrench.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenZZZ View Post
    Speaking of cost, I remember a point the CZOT guys made. They put a 1 1/2 hex head on the rod. The wrench was $100. Might be better to weld on a T'd pipe you can put a tire iron into instead of using a big socket or wrench.
    The 1-1/2" wrench would need to fit the nut, not the rod. I'm not sure you could get enough strength without distorting the nut if you welded long arms to it. They do sell large wing nuts, but only in 1"-6 pitch and they are expensive. I found jumbo wrench sets at Harbor Freight for about $45. They might also have them individually in the store??? I HATE Harbor Freight, but how bad can a giant box end wrench be? A large adjustable wrench could also be used.

    I priced everything needed for the puller at McMaster-Carr. For the standard thread tool, the rod, nut, and washer is $17 and some change. Add a 1" black steel nipple, a 1"x3/4" reducing coupling, and a 1" coupling and the total material cost would be around $25-$30. I am going to ask a friend to let me use his lathe to make the prototypes, so there should be no additional labor for my trial tools. The acme thread puller will be about $45-$50 total. I plan to use an old spare strut bearing, so that too is free for the trial puller. Once everything is proven-out, I would need to procure some sort of thrust bearing for those who don't have a stash of spare Z parts laying around. I only have a few bearings handy, but I might have more somewhere in storage.

    I did check the specs on the 1"x3/4" reducing coupling and the 3/4" long machined area of the rod should work fine. The coupling is only .55" long for the small end.

    What am I missing???

    EDIT: McMaster has a thrust bearing for about $20. Ideally this would only be needed for those who couldn't find a free strut bearing.
    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 05-08-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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    Nice sketch! What are you missing? It's going to be extremely difficult to machine that rod if it's already hardened. You could grind the OD down to 0.75, but putting in those internal threads is going to be a royal b*tch.

    Other than that, I don't see anything obvious.

    Is the 1" black iron pipe intended to slip over the threaded are? I'm just wondering if the internal weld bead in the pipe is going to cause problems.

    Also, I doubt thrust washers are going to be rated for the load you intend. If your pins are like the ones I've messed with, you're going to be putting a lot of force on it. A whole lot.

    What's the dimension of your typical 1x14 hex nut? Might not be as big as 1 1/2. I think you'd have to buy a whole wrench set at Horror Fright... You can buy singles elsewhere, but you'd pay as much for one quality wrench as you would for the entire set of HF junk.
    Last edited by Captain Obvious; 05-09-2012 at 05:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
    Nice sketch! What are you missing? It's going to be extremely difficult to machine that rod if it's already hardened. You could grind the OD down to 0.75, but putting in those internal threads is going to be a royal b*tch.

    Other than that, I don't see anything obvious.

    Is the 1" black iron pipe intended to slip over the threaded are? I'm just wondering if the internal weld bead in the pipe is going to cause problems.

    Also, I doubt thrust washers are going to be rated for the load you intend. If your pins are like the ones I've messed with, you're going to be putting a lot of force on it. A whole lot.

    What's the dimension of your typical 1x14 hex nut? Might not be as big as 1 1/2. I think you'd have to buy a whole wrench set at Horror Fright... You can buy singles elsewhere, but you'd pay as much for one quality wrench as you would for the entire set of HF junk.
    I'll ask my buddy at work how hard it would be to drill and tap the rod. He does a ton of machining, so he'll know. After looking at the pipe fittings again, I *might* be able to keep the rod a full 1" diameter and grind a flat into the 1" pipe coupler to clear the LCA flange. The 1" coupler has an O.D of 1.77" and the LCA flange can handle 1.5", so it might just work without adding extra machining to the rod. I'll buy a coupler and experiment before I turn the rod down to 3/4".

    Yes, the 1" iron pipe will slip over the 1" all-thread. I have tried it with 3/4" rod in a 3/4" pipe and it fits fine.

    I will not be using thrust washers. I will be using a thrust bearing. The Z bearing holds up the corner of the car, so it should work fine. I agree that a thrust washer would not work nearly as well.

    All 1" hex nuts are 1-1/2" across the flats from what I can tell, so yes, I'd need a 1-1/2" box end wrench of a big adjustable wrench. I'll check around and see what I can find. I really don't like giving HF any of my money.

    EDIT: I just rechecked and the acme hex nut is actually 1-5/8" across the flats. I guess I might need the jumbo wrench set after all since the standard threaded nut is a 1-1/2".

    I just looked at the dimensions of another type of coupling and it is only 1.58" O.D which might just fit under the LCA flange. I think we solved the issue and the rod will no longer need to be machined down to 3/4".
    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 05-09-2012 at 06:49 AM. Reason: added info
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    Jeff, for several years I was loaning these tools to Z drivers here on this web site. In fact I sent the drawings to Zhome and they have them on the site for down load. The first pullers were made of harden all thread but were not large enough . 3/4 Acme all thread offered at a machine supply is what you need. Especially if it is for repeated use. When you attach the adapter to the all thread do not weld it in place. This way this can easily be replaced. Always run a Die over the 12mm pin first. The outer shell that houses the all thread is only 1'' gas pipe with a large washer welded to one end so the all thread can stick out. Use a thrust bearing there and another washer and harden nut . If you build one with this materials it will work great. I have gone through several puller over the past 10+ years of sending them all over the USA to at least 80 owners. There have been a few tool failures but as the design was improved along the way this final design. is ''Bullet proof . I did not build these things just loaned them out. Another member here was the maker . He was lending them to members on hybredZ for a while. My last puller finely wore out and I can no longer get parts so I had to discontinue . By the way, using the puller you can save the old pin and reuse them.
    Gary
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    Cool. Sounds like a plan! Your machinist buddy should ask "Well, how hard?" You should have the hardness numbers handy when you talk to him. In general, "Hardened" means "Must resort to grinding - Cannot be cut with conventional means".

    When you get a chance, snap a pic of the coupler and pipe options that you've got laid out. Would help with the visualization. (For me, at least. )

    Another idea? You could maybe pick up a relatively long 1" diameter bolt at a big box store for a dollar or two and lop off the head for proof of concept?

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    I asked my friend and he said that 4142 machines fairly well with lots of cutting oil.

    I'll post some links to the couplers in a bit. I'm playing with Autocad right now.
    Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff G 78 View Post
    I asked my friend and he said that 4142 machines fairly well with lots of cutting oil.
    Are you buying it annealed or already hardened? If it's annealed, then yeah, it's a breeze to machine. But of course, it won't be hardened. If it's already hardened, then machining is more difficult. I guess once you punch through the case hardening, it should be softer inside, but then again... so will the threads. I'm no expert in the field... Just thinking out loud.

    Was this something from McMaster? I took a quick look over there and didn't see anything that clearly stood out. Everything was too long, and the best stuff they had was grade 8 and it cost more than what you listed above.

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    Hey Cap'n. If you go to McMaster and search "acme" you will see the threaded rods. The one I chose is the alloy ASTM A193 Grade B7 which is a chromoly 4140 quenched and tempered to a 4142. So yes, it is hardened and yes, it can still be machined. For now, I will buy just a 1"-10 x 12" rod as well as the same thing in a standard thread 1"-14 x 12" which is the same material spec as the acme rod.

    It certainly won't machine like a low carbon steel rod, but my buddy says it will do fine.
    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 05-09-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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    OKAY, This drawing is a wee bit better. It's NOT a proper drawing since I decide to mix sections and plan view for clarity. Let me know if you have any suggestions on my drafting techniques. It's been a LONG time since I last did a proper drawing. I did the drawing in AutoCAD 2000 (old school), printed it and scanned it as a picture. If anybody wants the CAD file, let me know.

    Jeff
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    If I found the right stuff, it has a max hardness of C35, so it shouldn't be a problem to machine. Yesterday I was thinking it could be an issue since the little poking around I did turned up that the chromoly stuff can be case hardened all the way up to like C60 or so, and that could be a problem. I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty far out of my element with the metallurgy stuff. I know just enough to be dangerous. I'm just asking questions poking around trying to help out by looking for holes.

    The overall drawing makes perfect sense to me, and one suggestion would be to include some feature to be able to turn the threaded rod by itself. Maybe a set of flats out on the non-business end or a cross drilled through hole for a rod or something like that? I'm thinking to help thread the rod onto the spindle, or remove it from the spindle when you're done? Maybe in some rare situation the spindle pin could turn as you're trying to pull it? You could use two large nuts as jam nuts in most situations, but I'm thinking something more elegant. Not sure you would ever really need it, but maybe?

    Boy, I would have loved to try this thing on the last pin I pulled. I don't know if it would have worked, but sure better than what I ended up with.

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    Just drill a 1/4" hole 1 1/2" from the left end, then you can use a screw driver to help turn the all thread.
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    Awesome Jeff! I'll try to pull the CZOT guys into the discussion for their input.
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    Thanks Lee. Let me know what kind of feedback you get from ZCOT members.

    A cross-drilled hole would be a simple add to install/remove the rod from the spindle pin. Depending on the amount of space left beyond the nut once the tool is attached, the hole location might be best at the far right end as you look at the drawing. That way, the rod could be installed/removed with or without the pipe in place and the hole could be used to hang the tool on the wall for storage.
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    Jeff,
    I am one of the CZOT members (engineer) working on the redesign of a puller that we had been using. The threaded 1" stud made of mild steel finally gave out on a puller I have had for a while that was purchased on eBay. A second one owned by another member removed over twenty spindle pins over the last several years and is beginning to wear out. When the threads on mine stripped out, I had the other end drilled and tapped. The machinist stated my stud was made out of butter and that it had a limited use. I was told to get some "real steel" and come back. We researched over the winter and tried to find a threaded steel stud equivalent to a Grade 8 bolt. ASTM A193 Grade B7 01 is what we ordered and sent to the machine shop to be drilled and tapped. I picked up two of the four threaded studs today and gave the machinist an additional $50 for the broken/dulled drill bits and taps. These 1" treaded studs are 12" and 3/4" longer than what were using (and should outlast the owners). They are very hard steel. I just need to verify that the additional 3/4" in length will leave enough room to remove pins with the A-arms still installed in the cars. This puller will function without having to neck down the 1" stud. The 1.5" nuts used to pull the stud and pin require a 1.5" open end or gear wrench. I have both which totaled about $100 for the wrenches alone.

    The preparation and rate of the extraction are the critical parts of pin removal. Penetrating oil applied a week or more in advance helps the pin break free during the extraction process. The slow removal of the pin is what will make the extraction successful. As a pin is being pulled, the metal yields or stretches until the pin moves as a whole. If you crank on it too fast, the pin yields to the point of failure and the end comes off the pin. Been there, done that. The amount of deformation to the pin where the key locks it in place is another obstacle in the removal process. If the key is too tight, it deforms the pin and you have to pull the deformed pin out which can be difficult. Too get the pin moving, a lug nut can be treaded the opposite end of the pin. Once the pin is under tension from the extractor, tap on the lug nut to assist in breaking the pin free from the corrosion of the last thirty or forty years. It should start moving. Just make sure you go slowly. A gear wrench makes extraction easier, but it also allows you to try to remove the pin too fast. If it is not moving and you keep wrenching, the pin will break. Yep, that's what happened the first time we tried the gear wrench on a really stuck unlubricated pin.

    Now that I have the new treaded studs, I will photograph and post all of the information needed to construct what we have done. The old one worked great. This new one will work better. Keep in mind that this was constructed to last and is not cheap to assemble.

    Steve
    Steve

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    Thanks for the info Steve.

    What type of threads did you go with on the stud (all-thread) and what pitch? What type of thrust bearing are you using?

    As for the big wrench needed, I thought about taking a cheap black oxide 1-1/2" (1-5/8" for acme) socket and cutting it in half to remove the square drive so it can slide over the 1" all-thread. The socket could then be made into a jumbo wing nut with some spare steel and some welding. It would be cheaper than a wrench and, if designed right, would be easier to use.

    Please post the pics of your new puller when you can.
    Jeff
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    I was picturing the use of this tool earlier today and thinking that it might be nice to have some kind of feature that you could use to steady the device with one hand while you were turning the big nut with the other? So you aren't side loading the spindle tip as you tightened the nut?

    I guess you could just push on the spacer tube with one hand while you pull on the wrench with the other, but I'm not sure how effective this would be.

    I'm just thinking that cranking on that big nut with one hand out in space a foot away from the spindle tip pictures a little off. Might be better if you could translate all of that side load directly into rotation and tension while you were tightening the nut?

    I'm having a hard time putting this into words, so I'll offer up an analogy... Kinda the same reason it feels fine using a ratchet with just one hand if you've got no extension on it, but if you put a foot long extension on it you feel the need to grab the back of the ratchet head with one hand while you crank the handle with the other. Does that make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z-Engineer View Post
    Jeff,
    I am one of the CZOT members (engineer) working on the redesign of a puller that we had been using. The threaded 1" stud made of mild steel finally gave out on a puller I have had for a while that was purchased on eBay. A second one owned by another member removed over twenty spindle pins over the last several years and is beginning to wear out.
    Fantastic first post Steve... Wow. Wonder if the 2nd one is my old puller. If it is, glad its fixing Z's instead of laying around my place. Check out Jeff's old skool auto-cad drawing on post #59!
    Lee - 2/72 240Z

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    The all thread stud has a 1-8 thread, which matches the nuts on the original puller. We use two nuts locked together to remove the stud from the pin because sometimes the force it takes to extract the pin tightens the stud/pin connection to the point it is difficult to break free. Flat washers were added as well to distribute load and assist with reducing friction between components. The concept of using a 1" diameter treaded stud also addressed the amount of force it can take to remove a pin. The large diameter stud has an increased amount of treaded surface area in contact with the nut to distribute the force to remove a really stuck pin. The size of the stud and nut eliminate them as a source of mechanical failure during the extraction process. The pin is the weakest link with this type of puller.

    Your idea of a giant wing nut may work, but some pins have been so corroded in place that it sounds like a rifle shot every time you turn the wrench. The length of the handle becomes important to provide a large enough moment of force to turn the nut. Pipe wrenches or large crescent wrenches can work as well. We just pull enough pins in our club that having the gear wrench and an additional open-end wrench allow the nuts to be tightened enough to break free of the pin if the connection is too tight while making the whole set up easy to use. We are drilling and tapping both ends of the stud in the event that the end of a pin breaks off in the stud while being pulled. If that happens, we just use the other end of the stud to pull the other pin. It may not happen often, but it has happened. The strut and A-arm assembly is removed to deal with a pin that has had the end pulled off.
    Steve

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    Jeff....Looks like you used a Weems Lettering Guide (lol). We used those back in the days at Georgia Tech in our engineering drawing classes. Can't wait to see the finished product.
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    I am very familiar with the "rifle shot" sound. In one of my posts above I describe the pin movement exactly as a rifle shot. It scared the crap out of us the first time we heard it. We were in a fairly small room that held the lathes, mills, and presses and the "rifle shot" echoed off the concrete block walls.

    I think I will drill and tap both ends as well. That's a good idea and will make it easier to finish the job if a pin does break. Stopping in the middle of the extraction to drill out the broken pin doesn't sound like fun.
    Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diseazd View Post
    Jeff....Looks like you used a Weems Lettering Guide (lol). We used those back in the days at Georgia Tech in our engineering drawing classes. Can't wait to see the finished product.
    OMG... Weems Lettering Guide! I haven't heard that term in 25 years. That said, I still have one and just saw it when I was fishing around in my old drafting supplies to find pencils and triangles to make my first puller drawing. .

    For those young guys who have no idea what we are talking about, here is a lettering guide. I just looked and mine is an Ames. BTW Guy, No, I didn't use it. I did it freehand.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Jeff G 78; 05-11-2012 at 06:28 AM.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
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    Me too Jeff......
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7600346077563/
    ______________________________________________
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1404980...7603350695459/

    70, 71, 2 72's, and a 73 240z....
    90 300zx and a 1996 Acura NSX.....but who's counting?

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    To reply to Captain Obvious observation, "I'm just thinking that cranking on that big nut with one hand out in space a foot away from the spindle tip pictures a little off. Might be better if you could translate all of that side load directly into rotation and tension while you were tightening the nut?"

    At first the concept of having a puller extend a foot back in line with the pin and placing a perpendicular moment force 20" or more seems a little odd, but when you start to consider that you have made a mechanical connection to the strut assembly and A-arm, and note that the structure itself is subjected to large lateral loads (reference to my style of driving) well beyond that to remove the pin, the applied rotation force does not have a major impact to the structure. While the length of the wrench applies the force, the rotational force is being applied where the treads of the nut meet the threads of the stud. Therefore, you really are applying the load directly into rotation and tension while you were tightening the nut.

    Once the extraction assembly is connected to the pin, you have a very firm platform to apply the torque needed to remove the pin. It is pulled so tight onto the side of the A-arm that you do not have to support the extractor assembly during pin removal. It is as if it were part of the car.

    I hope I addressed your concern. Please let me know if I just total missed what you are trying to convey.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Steve, be sure to upload pics of your latest puller when you get a chance. Thanks.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

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    Jeff,

    I hope to get to do that over the weekend. I just have to find all the parts since it was dismantled to evaluate everything. We should have a thread on how to construct it with a parts list on the CZOT.org website very soon. Another member has the same puller and will be working with one of our prototypes to evaluate how well it operates. Lee's puller was a different design and is at the Z Clinc here in town. Kevin, the owner, will test one of the four prototypes as well.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

  86. #86
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    No, I think you got it. I've not used such a device so all I can do is picture it in use. Last time I did this I used washers and a nut directly on the spindle tip, so I was wrenching maybe a half inch away from the A-arm. Was just thinking that the farther the wrench from the A-arm, the longer your moment arm will be in a direction you don't want it.

    But in any event, cool... Sounds like a non-issue.

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    The only thing that we were not able to address to my satisfaction is separating the stud from the extracted pin. Depending on the amount of torque required to remove the pin, it can be difficult to separate the two without damaging the surface of the pin. We have used strips of rubber or leather wrapped around the pin to protect the surface from the teeth of vice grips or channel locks. However, we have still managed to scratch a pin's surface from time to time.

    We file the burrs off, polish up with fine sand paper, coat with antisieze and reinstall the pins once the bushings have been replaced. Some pins come out with little effort and others take time. It really just depends on the environment the car was driven. Corrosion from de-icing agents isn't a problem in Central Texas, but car from up north may present a challenge to the design we have developed. The pre-removal prep may need additional processing to help deal with a more corrosive environment.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Steve, just thinking out loud here, but have you tried to reinstall the pin with the puller rod still attached and use the wedge bolt to hold it tight while you remove the rod via double nutting it?
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

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    Jeff, that's one thing I haven't tried! And it may work well. We've always just removed the pin so that it can be tapped back into place with a rubber mallet. I'd have to see if a mallet can still be used to reinstall it with the pin still attached to the stud. There may be enough room under the car to make this work. The two nuts tightened against each other on the stud would allow the pin to be indexed easily for installation of the key.

    I have located all the parts and will post pics tomorrow or Sunday. It's not pretty, but works very well. Electro-Z of our club is a lifetime friend and the one that started modifying the design of the original pullers we purchased. He really should get credit for most of what has been done. I worked on finding a stud steel that compares to a Grade 8 bolt (our standard of hardness) and drilled/tapped both ends of the stud due to an breakage during extraction of the first pin on a bushing replacement project. Four different members had input over the last six months on the final design for the prototype. We all turn wrenches together just about every weekend on a First Gen Z.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Two things that we came up with on the puller:

    - The pin can deform with the key inserted firmly. Rotation to separate the stud from the pin while it is installed may cause more deformation than just setting the key. This could make future removal more difficult.

    - Since a lug nut can attach to the threads on a pin, it may be possible to spin the pin in place with an impact wrench. Several short bursts may be able break the pin free of the corrosion. Removal would be easier once the pin breaks free of the corrosion.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    I have always wondered if the lock wedge serves any purpose at all. The nuts at each end hold the pin from moving lengthwise and I don't see the harm in allowing it to rotate as long as the nuts are installed with threadlock. One of two thins will happen It will either continue to rotate and will likely never get stuck again, or it will soon find a spot it likes and stay put just like the wedge would have done. When I installed new pins in my '78, I did install the wedge, but I was tempted to leave it out and simply RTV the holes closed to prevent moisture from entering the knuckle.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

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    I think the key just allows you to center the pin and tighten the nuts on both sides. My 71 240 hasn't had the key in place for the last decade. Once the crevice corrosion starts, everything is pretty much locked in place. I don't think the nuts are even on the ends of the pin. My cars will get the pins pulled and new bushings soon. Again, just thinking out loud.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Default Pin Puller Pictures

    Attached are pictures of the pin puller that we redesigned.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Z-Engineer; 05-12-2012 at 08:34 PM.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Looks great Steve. How is the flare done on the tube? Is that a washer welded to the tube and ground smooth, or is it something else?
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

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    If you take a good look at the flared end (bottom picture), you should be able to see two flat washers welded to the end of a piece of pipe. The taper was made with an epoxy filler to keep it from catching on things. The tube was part of the original puller we purchased. As you can tell we have not drilled both ends on this stud yet. We want to make sure the lenth is acceptable before the other side is drilled and tapped. The flat washers, additional nut, harder alloy steel threaded stud and drilling both ends are the modifications we made. The original design was good for pulling a set or two of pins. The modifications will allow the puller to outlast those pulling.
    Last edited by Z-Engineer; 05-12-2012 at 08:35 PM.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    From reading back through the thread, we may have purcahsed our original pullers from Gary some years back. His comments on the design describe our pullers pretty well. If he is the source of our pullers, he did a great job with the original design.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z-Engineer View Post
    Attached are pictures of the pin puller that we redesigned.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That will show those wicked pins who is boss.
    Lee - 2/72 240Z

    Thinking ahead is NO EXCUSE for thinking!

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    Damn, those are some serious spindle pin pullers! Definitely sturdier than the one I have.
    2/74 260Z

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    Default Prototype Pin Puller Update

    As an update, we used the prototype puller on a set of spindle pins on corroded suspension strut and A-arm assemblies that had been in storage for 15 or more years. Removal of the keys took place the day before removal of the pins. It took about 30 minutes to remove the keys due to corrosion. Pre-application of penetrating oil to the keys prior to attempting to the removal did not occur. I'm sure it would have helped to presoak the keys.

    Once the keys were removed, the spindle pins were sprayed with penetrating oil and left to sit overnight. After 24 hours, we removed the both pins in less than 30 minutes. While this may not represent all pin removal attempts, we used the following procedure:

    - we removed the nuts on the end of the pins;
    - the pin treads were chased with cutting dies;
    - the pins were sprayed with penetrating oil at the joints of the strut/A-arm and the key access point;
    - a lug nut was attached to one end of the pin using antiseize on the threads;
    - the puller was attached to the other side to the pin after applying antiseize to the threads;
    - the pin was placed into tension with several turns of the 1.5" nut;
    - several blows with a 6 lb sledge were applied to the lug nut to break the corrosion bond while the pin was in tension;
    - the 1.5" nut was turned to confirm the pin was moving;
    - additional penetrating oil was applied as the pin was being removed;
    - the spindle pin was removed from the extraction stud.

    I was amazed at how easy it was to remove the pin with this process. As stated, this may not represent all pin removal attempts, but this has been the easiest removal to date and first using this methodology. In my opinion, breaking the corrosion adhesive bond is the key to making the whole process easy. Heating the pin housing has been the traditional method to break the corrosion bond, but I think that using the stud material properties (elastic energy) to your advantage with a force multiplier (love taps with the sledge) and plenty of lubrication can make the job a snap. Placing the pin in tension also makes it a tad bit thinner allowing the penetrating oil to access more pin surface area in turn reducing the overall friction of the removal process.

    With the next attempt, we will use an impact wrench on the lug nut to try to spin the pin in place prior to removal. The pin will be lubricated with penetrating oil for 24 hours or more prior to starting this process. The sudden short burst of rotational force may be enough to break the corrosion bond and allow easy pin removal. Too long a burst may twist the end off the pin or torque/twist the pin. Use extreme caution with this process unless you like to use heat or a machine shop on your projects. I do have a favorite machine shop to address theory that does not translate into finished product very well.
    Last edited by Z-Engineer; 05-18-2012 at 08:49 AM.
    Steve

    1970 240Z (RIP)
    1971 240Z 3/4 Race cam, triple duce 45 DCOE 7 Weber Carbs, Recaro Seats, 5-speed, F-54 block, shaved P90 head...
    1973 240Z was turbo - now parts
    1974 260Z Califonia Wide Body - Sold
    1975 280Z Stock plus dealer upgrades for now....

    "If knowledge is power, mechanical knowledge is horsepower!"

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    Registered User Jeff G 78's Avatar
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    Thanks for the report Steve. Was there any sign of mushrooming from the wedge key? I think that can be as bad as the corrosion issue.
    Jeff
    Northville, Michigan
    IZCC #1285
    '78 280 10:1 CR, Arizona Z Car header, urethane bushings, Tokico springs, Illumina struts, Panasports w/Hankook R-S2 225/50R16 tires, Maxima 105 amp alternator
    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=7975
    '74 260Z BRE look-alike crap can for Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series Racing racing
    https://www.facebook.com/Jeff.Grauer

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