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Thread: 240K Vs 240Z rear brake kits

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Default 240K Vs 240Z rear brake kits

    Hi Guys,

    i am once again looking into getting off my arse and doing my brake conversions.

    does anyone know (and i am sure there will be someone) if a 240Z rear brake conversion kit would work on a 240K arm?

    looking at something similar to this:
    http://www.modern-motorsports.com/ca...&products_id=2

    the 240SX is the equivilant to the imported 180SX here i think.
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    Registered User aarc240's Avatar
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    Hi Kent
    Been down this road and there is nothing I found that is a straight bolt-on.
    240z has a different distance from the wheel mounting flange to the backing plate mounting face so although the disks will fit, the caliper mount bracket is unusable.
    I have used 280ZX rear brakes with 'Annette' style calipers.
    The 280ZX also supplied the longer wheel studs.
    A custom pair of caliper mount brackets and custom handbrake cables.
    Not yet investigated but a possibility is a C210 coupe I have access to which looks to be near identical in the rear end and already has 270mm disks.

    It really depends on what use you have in mind. Our C110 is a 'regularity' class competitor so doesn't need huge brakes.
    270mm by 20mm ventilated front disks with four piston calipers and 270mm solid rear disks with 'Annette' calipers have proven adequate.

    HTH

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    yeah that is what i thought,

    the reason i ask was that i was considering getting stewart Wilkins to do the rear brakes for me, the price i got was around $1500 fitted, and was based on some form of commodore setup (new disks and calipers included). I didn't ask but i figured it was their 240Z/260Z rear brake kit (pricing was around the same).

    I am now trying to keep my costs down and trying to do as much as i can on the car (trying to save on labour), since there is sooo much left to do, but it looks like i won't be able just to buy the kit and simply bolt it on myself, some work will need to be done. If that is the case, i may as well modify the existing designs that Bruce has made for R30 calipers and change them to suite R34 GTT rear calipers (atleast then i know they will suit my R34 GTT front's). i am planning on using a 15/16" master cyl. but i do not know why, i was just told by SWR that i would need one so i got one..
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    isn't the 240k rear more similar to the 510?
    if so, perhaps you'd be abke to use an off the shelf 510 rear disc conversion

    http://datsun510.com/shop4/

    or these ...

    http://www.arizonazcar.com/510brakes.html

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    Registered User HKSZ's Avatar
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    You might want to look at skyline R31 rear disc's, Calipers and mounting bracket. I had started this on a 240k arm because this setup fits closely a 1600 arm. However the k has a bigger bearing ie a larger hole, what I did acheive gringing out the hole I could fit the top 2 bolt holes.
    The offset using the original cal, disc, and mount is spot on for a 240K, if I was going to pursue it I think I could weld up and redrill bottom hole and perhaps get 3 bolts in.

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Yeah, i was originally going for a set of R31 rears and Z32 NA fronts, but i since bought a set of 30mm R34 front calipers, and i have been told by SWR that the R31's would not be a good balance for the rears in my setup so it looks like i may need to do a bit of a hybrid of the current 240K-R30 design with the rotors and caliper sizes i end up using.. i was hoping there would be atleast something around already, but doesn't look like it..
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
    1970 Datsun 240Z HS30 #212

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    learning something new all the time ...

    what about 280zx rear brakes?

    probably too small for your application, but still might make an easier conversion for the budget-minded since the zx was more sedan like in it's supension than the s30

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    yeah, i am afraid if R31's would be too small, then 280ZX would be too small too
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    Registered User aarc240's Avatar
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    Expanding on my previous answer.

    The fronts to give a reasonable match with the 280zx rears are:
    Toyota 4WD 4 piston calipers (direct bolt-on to late C110 struts)
    Peugeot 504 disks (DBA272) with 5mm spacers, redrilled to mount on 240k hubs.
    Left brake hard line slightly reshaped on right and vice versa.
    That's all!

    Struts MUST have had 270mm solid discs originally - mine were from a C210.

    I figured that most braking effort was on the front so as long as enough was present on the rear to keep the car straight without locking them then it should be OK.
    So far experience has shown it to work well although there is some sign that pad wear on the rear is considerably higher.
    I would have preferred a bit more pad and slightly larger piston for the rear but couldn't find anything just right with parking brake included.
    Probably should have hung a small extra set of cable operated calipers on Jaguar style for the parking brake!!

    Master cylinder needs to be at least 15/16". The stock 7/8" results in far too much pedal travel to push enough fluid to the 4 piston calipers and also gives a soft unpredictable pedal feel. I'm using a 1" Patrol part for a firm short pedal and find it's much easier to control (modulate) the brakes with it.

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    yep, my current fronts are a combination Hilux/accord combo, never driven them with it (it is still a shell).

    i certainly considered thinking about a 2nd brake for the handbrake, then i could have used R34 GTT rears

    interesting what you say about the M/C, SWR recommended that i got a 15/16" M/C from the 280Z (?), i ended up buying a brandnew nabco one out of the states, it is sitting there in it's box, i wonder if this will be a little small now?
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
    1970 Datsun 240Z HS30 #212

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    Deftly daft Alfadog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarc240
    Toyota 4WD 4 piston calipers (direct bolt-on to late C110 struts)
    Peugeot 504 disks (DBA272) with 5mm spacers, redrilled to mount on 240k hubs.
    Left brake hard line slightly reshaped on right and vice versa.
    That's all!

    Struts MUST have had 270mm solid discs originally - mine were from a C210.

    Master cylinder needs to be at least 15/16". The stock 7/8" results in far too much pedal travel to push enough fluid to the 4 piston calipers and also gives a soft unpredictable pedal feel. I'm using a 1" Patrol part for a firm short pedal and find it's much easier to control (modulate) the brakes with it.
    Good information . . . . so it looks like if I get this front set up previously on Kent's car I will need late model 240K struts as mine are early? And a new master cylinder too - or would that only really be necessary if I changed the rears too?

    (Sorry for diverting the topic a bit!!)

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    if you want to measure the distance between your current caliper bolts, i will measure mine as they come off. The guy who setup my car had it on the road with the current brake setup, so it must work, though i would certainly upgrade the M/C if you goto rear disks too

    does anyone know what "late model 240K" equates to?
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    ive been suprised by my brake package i orginally went with 81 mazda 929 calipers and discs on the rear they have hand brake build into them.the discs slide straight on made my own caliper mounts just bolted them off the 4 bolts in the strut
    1st fronts where std calipers with metal king pads and grooved std discs
    2nd was hilux 4x4 on grooved discs
    3rd and current hilux late model on falcon discs with carbon pads
    through all my changes the backs have worked fine

    another option to think about is the rx7 series 4 rear calipers again hand brake built into caliper along with ventilated discs been running this on the rx4 rally car for a few years work fine using commodore front calipers and falcon discs

    Another option would be 90 to 94 200sx calipers

    its not that hard to make a mount my zed ones i made out of 10 mm steel the rx4 we made out 6 mm and they lasted just fine and been worked damn hard

    I might be wrong but a lot of kits your paying for the guys knowledge ( and he deserves it if thats his business) as much as the fittings but if u can find some parts and try them with out buying them theres always another way

    I was told jaguar 4 spot calipers and chrylser cl discs worked fine years ago they might have done for the guy that told me that but damned if i could make them fit under my 15" rims ended up fitting the calipers and falcon discs to my mates transit van man they worked sweet

    mick
    240 zed 1971 fitted with v8
    Mazda Rx4 rally car sedan 13b jport

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    90-94 200SX? do you mean the 180SX, we didn't get any 200SX before 1994.

    those options (200SX and RX7) sound very promising! will have a look around and check them out!
    Last edited by khughes; 04-06-2006 at 10:24 PM.
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
    1970 Datsun 240Z HS30 #212

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    toyota 4pots are a direct bolt on to late c110 struts? what year(s)? or do you mean late model 240k as in c210

    i would like to see pics of the 200sx (s13) rear brakes on your s30
    Last edited by Mat Big Hat; 04-07-2006 at 12:52 PM.

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Just a quick update guys,

    I bought an imported Skyline DR30 rear end (crossmember, half shafts, disks, dust plates and a single caliper ) from a parts importer for AU$350. The only thing i really scored from this was the 2nd hand rotors, a really bent set of dust covers and a single DR30 caliper and handbrake cable. hopefully the rest can be sold off to R30 skyline ppl

    I will be swapping the halfshafts for a DR30 1" Master cylinder and booster though, so that is nice

    The early DR30 rear bracket calipers were bolted onto the hub, whilst later on they were welded on, so i grabbed a new set of brake caliper mounts from nissan (around $140 a side).

    i havn't test fitted it all yet, but i am hopign this will allow me to bolt the complete DR30 stuff together onto my 240k

    A friend of mine, convinced me that the DR30 rear brakes should be sufficient to stop the car, since in japan they upgrade the fronts of DR30's to GTR brakes (i am going to use similar R34 GTT ones), and leave the rears stock. My car is lighter than a DR30 so i should be okay

    the rear disks will be 258mmx10mm solids
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
    1970 Datsun 240Z HS30 #212

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    Registered User zed240au's Avatar
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    ive been using mazda 929 rear discs and calipers for years work fine there a 258 mm disc and slided straight over the 240z stud axles
    have worked fine with hilux 4 x 4 vent front discs and std master cylinder
    240 zed 1971 fitted with v8
    Mazda Rx4 rally car sedan 13b jport

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    Registered User aarc240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khughes
    I will be swapping the halfshafts for a DR30 1" Master cylinder and booster though, so that is nice
    You really don't need a 1" master cylinder. The difference is a little less pedal travel and a harder pedal which is easier to 'modulate' when driving on the limit.
    If you want a more 'normal' feel, the 15/16" will work well provided you don't switch to twin piston rear calipers. Then it will again have a longer and softer pedal.
    btw, a Nissan Patrol around '81 has a 1" master cylinder that is almost identical in appearance to the stock unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by khughes
    A friend of mine, convinced me that the DR30 rear brakes should be sufficient to stop the car, since in japan they upgrade the fronts of DR30's to GTR brakes (i am going to use similar R34 GTT ones), and leave the rears stock. My car is lighter than a DR30 so i should be okay

    the rear disks will be 258mmx10mm solids
    It's not the caliper only you have to consider.

    For a front disk close to 270mm the 258 rear disks will be adequate.
    If you fit something around 290mm with four spot calipers and the 258mm rear disks with single piston floating calipers then you are going to have a car that locks front wheels at the slightest hint of a damp road.

    Try to keep the diameter of the front and rear disks reasonably close, then you will have less pain getting the balance right.

    Quote Originally Posted by alfadog
    so it looks like if I get this front set up previously on Kent's car I will need late model 240K struts as mine are early?
    Very likely if your present disks are 250mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by alfadog
    And a new master cylinder too - or would that only really be necessary if I changed the rears too?
    Anytime you go to four piston calipers you are going to need a bigger master.
    Use 15/16" for single piston or drum rears, 1" for two piston rears for normal street use.
    Step up 1/16" on either if you intend club competition (regularity etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by khughes
    if you want to measure the distance between your current caliper bolts
    The bolt spacing to mount the caliper is the same on nearly all Nissan RWD cars!
    It's the distance from the centre of the axle to the caliper bolts that changes.
    You can actually bolt 200B calipers straight on a C210 strut but you won't find a rotor to match the combination!

    Quote Originally Posted by khughes
    does anyone know what "late model 240K" equates to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat Big Hat
    toyota 4pots are a direct bolt on to late c110 struts? what year(s)? or do you mean late model 240k as in c210
    Sorry, I was sleeping at the wheel for a while!!

    Anyway, I have found 270mm solid disks on the front of late '75 onward C110's but that's no guarantee that someone else hasn't been in there before with C210 struts.
    That's the critical bit, the struts must have had 270mm disks to be an easy swap prospect.

    Plan on an adjustable rear brake bias compensation valve too.
    It will make it lots easier to dial in the package to JUST lock the front wheels before the rears.
    Don't get into rear wheel lock first unless you have a LOT of experience in a discipline such as speedway or rallying.

    HTH

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarc240
    It's not the caliper only you have to consider.

    For a front disk close to 270mm the 258 rear disks will be adequate.
    If you fit something around 290mm with four spot calipers and the 258mm rear disks with single piston floating calipers then you are going to have a car that locks front wheels at the slightest hint of a damp road.

    Try to keep the diameter of the front and rear disks reasonably close, then you will have less pain getting the balance right.
    that is what i am afraid off, not knowing that much about brake balancing etc. Do you have any suggestions on what will match 290mm 4 spot fronts and retain a handbrake cable? there obviously isn't an easy answer if SWR suggestion was going commodore rears with a banksia brake.. and i really can't afford to spend $2000+ on the rears at the moment. obviously though if i can do it properly i would prefer to.

    every nissan rear that i have seen have been single pot with handbrake cable, or twin spot with an integrated banksia cable, and i assumed that converting one of these would be too hard for a basic backyard mechanic such as myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by aarc240
    The bolt spacing to mount the caliper is the same on nearly all Nissan RWD cars!
    It's the distance from the centre of the axle to the caliper bolts that changes.
    You can actually bolt 200B calipers straight on a C210 strut but you won't find a rotor to match the combination!
    my GTT brakes certainly don't match up to the C210 struts (100mm vs 75mm i think), or are you talking about of the same vintage?
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    Now a Mazdabater 440k's Avatar
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    That's right Kent. On the front brakes, the 1600/180B had a 3" bolt spacing (which suits Commodore calipers). The HR31, Aus spec GTS and R32 onwards Skylines, and Z32 onwards had 100mm spacing (also fits Subaru calipers). Almost all other RWD Nissans / Datsuns run the 3.5" bolt spacing, which is the same as Landcruiser / Hilux 4 piston calipers.

    There may be some other exceptions too, eg 1200's, 120Y, Stanza, but I have never considered using any of their parts, nor have I done a brake upgrade on them, so can't comment from experience.

    Also, the issue of 250mm rear discs compared to 290mm vented front / 4 spot calipers is more of a heat dissipation issue. It is possible to adjust rear bias to get the rear working harder, but they will most likely fade quicker than something as big as what you're proposing for the front.


    Have you considered a custom caliper bracket, and using the front 270mm C110 disc on the back? This way you can still use the MR30 or R31 rear caliper. it's something I've thought about, although haven't investigated. One thing that may be a problem I believe is the centre bore of the 270mm disc is too big for the hub, which means you might need to use a spacer ring to centre the disc.

    Peter.
    Last edited by 440k; 05-23-2006 at 11:58 PM.

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    Registered User zed240au's Avatar
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    kent ive been running 290 mm falcon front discs with 4 spot hilux calipers and 250 mm rears with single piston calipers for years no problem
    quite well balanced
    would agree that a adjustable bias valve would be a good idea to adjust the brakes i been running a izuzu one for years but got a wilwood one the other day off ebay $110 so its not a big expense
    as for master cylinders ive been running std 240z right through
    240 zed 1971 fitted with v8
    Mazda Rx4 rally car sedan 13b jport

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    Registered User zed240au's Avatar
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    other option for rear is the modern motorsport idea using 300zx rear discs 290 mm and 240sx calipers just dont know how easy the 240sx calipers are to find in australia could use modern motosport caliper mount source discs locally DBA list them on there internet site
    wouldnt be that hard to make caliper mount up made my own for the mazda calipers
    240 zed 1971 fitted with v8
    Mazda Rx4 rally car sedan 13b jport

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    www.project240k.com khughes's Avatar
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    my mistake, the regular MR30 had 258x10mm disks, the DR30 has 290x10mm disks... so it should atleast match my fronts (i am sticking them under 16" watanabe's, so can't go much larger)
    07/74 Datsun 240K GL Hardtop KHGC110 - #5497 (longest 240k project in history?)
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    Default Sigma rears

    Kent,

    I just finished my brake conversion on my 260Z... 266mm vented fronts with 4spot Landcruiser's & 280mm solid rear with sigma single piston caillipers. I'm still using the 7/8 M/C bit will be changed to 15/16 to give me a slightly firmer pedal. This set up works quite well with the fronts locking up before the rears under heavy braking. (I don't know what it will be like in the wet, it hasn't rained yet).
    "TURBO" = cubic inch substitute.
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    Now a Mazdabater 440k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nixcars
    (I don't know what it will be like in the wet, it hasn't rained yet).
    Should have even more front bias in the wet, since there will be less weight transfer to the front (less overall grip)

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