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Thread: early 240z brake master cylinder

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    Default early 240z brake master cylinder

    Kragens still on there website has rebulit brake master cylinders for sale...They come with out the resievors however...At a round $40.00 it's a good deal....I'm going to call on monday....

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    In all my years of working on cars, both my own and as a way to make a living, I've never had a rebuilt master cylinder last for any significant amount of time. Many of them failed before the 90 day warranties expired. I will not trust my brakes to a rebuilt, and in fact bought a new early master cylinder from my local Nissan dealer a couple months back. There were 5 left in the US at that time.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    HS130-150591 4/79 zbane's Avatar
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    I agree with Arne, rebuilts are iffy. The brakes were starting to fail on my previous car (92 Accord), so I took it to my usual shop, where they installed a rebuilt master cylinder from carquest. Tech went for a spin, came back, threw it back on the lift and ordered another one. The rebuilt replacement was bad straight out of the box. If you can find a "new" one, go for it, your life depends on it.
    David
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    Does Kragens offer a kit?? I had my master cyl bored and a bronze liner added. White Post Restorations did this 15 years ago.

    I bought the last rebuild kit from Nissan a couple months ago. It's a shame that nobody offers a kit. I replaced the rubbers as prevntative maint and found the bronze bore to be shiny and smooth.

    My local NAPA offered a rebuild service for the early MC maybe they have a parts list for the individual rubber parts.

    You can still buy a brand new MC for around $275.

    2c
    Jim
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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zbane View Post
    Tech went for a spin, came back, threw it back on the lift and ordered another one. The rebuilt replacement was bad straight out of the box.
    I can't even count the number of times I had this happen when installing a rebuilt on a customer's car. Or how many of them that didn't fail on the test drive, failed in the next week or two. Eventually my employer at that time adopted a "no rebuilts" policy, because having to replace the same cylinder several times in a 90 day warranty is no way to make a profit.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyZ View Post
    Does Kragens offer a kit?? I had my master cyl bored and a bronze liner added. White Post Restorations did this 15 years ago.

    I bought the last rebuild kit from Nissan a couple months ago. It's a shame that nobody offers a kit. I replaced the rubbers as prevntative maint and found the bronze bore to be shiny and smooth.

    My local NAPA offered a rebuild service for the early MC maybe they have a parts list for the individual rubber parts.

    You can still buy a brand new MC for around $275.
    Yes, if you get your original cylinder sleeved, that could work well - if the job was well done. But that's about the only way I'd consider a rebuilt.

    My Nissan dealer gives me a nice discount as a 240Z club member. I got my new early master cylinder for $185.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    long time owner a7dz's Avatar
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    Make that four of less in the US then as I too bought one from a dealer. Same price as Arne delivered to my door step. My experiences are like Arne's rebuilts in my opinion are scrap metal. Like Jimmy said unless they are sleeved do not use them. The difference in price is not worth your getting hurt or worse.
    Jim
    Bought my 70Z at 21 with 24,000 miles
    Still own it. Thirty plus years later.


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    Quote Originally Posted by a7dz View Post
    Make that four of less in the US then as I too bought one from a dealer. Same price as Arne delivered to my door step. My experiences are like Arne's rebuilts in my opinion are scrap metal. Like Jimmy said unless they are sleeved do not use them. The difference in price is not worth your getting hurt or worse.

    My Nissan parts guy says that there are plenty of early Nissan master cylinders left in the system, but the problem with them is the price (they are not cheap, but on the other hand you get what you pay for). This is happening with a lot of Nissan parts now.....if you haven't priced an alternator from Nissan lately, get prepared for some massive sticker shock.

    You can add me to the list of those who bought a master cylinder recently.
    Last edited by BRE-240Z; 02-12-2007 at 04:44 AM.
    .


    1971 Datsun 240Z
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    Still for someone who did not have the correct brake master cylinder it might be a good deal if you have it resleved and than rebuilt...I also thought that the Nisson ones where sold out...I have got a used one from ebay and the one I'm going to buy from Kragen's is just a stop gap...Or I might buy a new one...BTW the car I bought has the wrong one.And I can not drive it..Also no they do not offer a kit NAPA might...And as for alternator's just check the stator and rebuild...I have done that to other old cars...

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    I will call White Post tomorrow and have the used one redone by them. It seems to me that they also rebuild them with new parts as well.And they offer fast service....But I still think it's a good idea to use Kragen's part as a band aid.. If you can not find the correct part....As an added note I do not think White Post is going anywhere(30+ years) and counting...So ask them if they have rebuild kit's....

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    Hiya & FYI

    White Post doesn't offer rubber kits. All they do is bore and insert a bronze or stainless sleeve. This sleeve is then reamed and/or honed to spec. WP doesn't rebuild cylinders they just get the MC bore back to tolerances. It is really a thing for rare and exotic cars but they humored me just the same. Really nice people.

    As mentioned NAPA didn't sell a rebuild kit but a local NAPA store did offer a service where I'd send it to them and they would stick in some new rubbers. (My thoughts on rubbers at end of post)

    If you can swing it I'd just buy the master cylinder from Nissan. (If they still sell the early one) When I went there I wasn't armed with a part number but they said that the part had been superceeded by the 8/71-> model MC. Still, I was able to find that some parts stores showed that you could buy the "correct" MC for $275-$300.

    BRE... Did you say that there are only four left??!! Seems your parts counter is better than mine. Four though

    After taking several other master cylinders apart I've come to the conclusion that the style of rubber used in the early MC design isn't common. Perhaps my NAPA had the inside track perhaps they just THOUGHT they did. Since I do machining as a hobby I like to study such things. The early internals for the MC are more complex than other designs. This doesn't mean that it would be that hard to make some altered internals that utilize readily obtainable rubbers though. I've got about 7-15 years to figure this one out before the MC needs rubbers again.

    Pic of rebuild kit... Too bad nobody has/offers one anymore.
    http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/a...2&d=1160278383
    Last edited by JimmyZ; 02-13-2007 at 05:47 PM.
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    This is the info I got from White Post Restorations. Total rebuild including installing new brass sleeves and all new parts to rebuild the master cylinder $250.00 including shipping.This service has a limited lifetime warranty.So if you own a master cylinder that has been rebuilt by them and the seals give out call them @ 540-837-1140 and ask for billy..Just remember if your sending the master cylinder to them for this service do not take it a part just drain the brake fluid out. As for the new master cylinder from nissan the cost is $220.00 plus shipping...They say that it's not in stock but can ship in 2-3 days btw this quote is from courtesy nissan....

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    Nice that White Post is doing rebuilds now! When I used them I don't think they were. (15 years ago) I'm still perplexed at how they would get the right rubbers. Nobody supplies them anymore. Matching OD is easy but getting the ID and thickness/profile which matches the shoulders of the pistons would prove interesting. (Unless they make the pistons to suit)

    I spent about a week searching online and calling parts stores but had no luck locating rubbers. Many of the sources said "I can order that.. No prob". When time came to order it I got the usual "It's in the system but has been discontinued". I was able to buy the last rebuild kit from Nissan though. Before sending off to White Post (If you choose that route) I'd make sure they can get rubbers.

    Are you sure that Nissan is not trying to give you a later series MC? Reed Nissan was all ready to take my money and order one but I had them look into what they were actually going to get me... This would have been the 8/71-> MC. The dealer was more eager to sell a part that worked but not the "right" part. I had to insist on seeing the paper parts manual and then note that the MC# was different than what they were going to get me. Someday I'll get the parts CD offered by this site.

    Here's a pic for comparison. The bottom is the pre-8/71 MC internals. On top is a Maxima MC internals. Both have the same bore but the thickness of the rubbers is different. It's funny that the thinner/lighter rubbers are for a Maxima station wagon.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyZ View Post
    Are you sure that Nissan is not trying to give you a later series MC?
    Absolutely. When I bought my red car it already had the later style on it. I bought the early one from my local Nissan dealer. Gave them the part number myself, 46010-E4602. This was in November or December of 2006. Cost me $185 for the real thing, brand new.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    Same experience here got the early one from Nissan.
    Jim
    Bought my 70Z at 21 with 24,000 miles
    Still own it. Thirty plus years later.


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    It should be noted that www.blackdragonauto.com sells early MCs, but also carries both MCs and a rebuild kits for 72' and on for those who have clean bores. The kit is cheap ($9.95) and comes with new primary and secondary pistons, springs and cups. I just rebuilt mine but have yet to test it and won't be able to do so until I get the beast back on the road.

    Here:
    http://www.blackdragonauto.com/icatalog/z/0103.asp
    Last edited by =Enigma=; 02-14-2007 at 12:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Absolutely. When I bought my red car it already had the later style on it. I bought the early one from my local Nissan dealer. Gave them the part number myself, 46010-E4602. This was in November or December of 2006. Cost me $185 for the real thing, brand new.
    Very cool! I'm glad to hear that your dealer wasn't trying to do what mine was. If I had ben armed with the right part# perhaps things would have been different.

    Jim
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    I might suggest that the life of the "rebuilts" could be greatly enhanced if they taken apart and washed out first before being pressed into service. I have opened several over the years only to find grit and shavings in the bore either of which wont mix with rubber seals for long....
    Certainly not right that one should have to do this before using, just saying.......
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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Palmer View Post
    I might suggest that the life of the "rebuilts" could be greatly enhanced if they taken apart and washed out first before being pressed into service. I have opened several over the years only to find grit and shavings in the bore either of which wont mix with rubber seals for long....
    Certainly not right that one should have to do this before using, just saying.......
    Ahhh! I'd never thought of that, Bruce. But it sure makes a whole lot of sense! Otherwise why would new ones off the shelf be bad. Good idea!
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    sorry to bring it back from the dead, but it looks like I need a new one for mine, and when looking at it the one there is of the later configuration with the larger or front reservoir at the back of the MC, the lines seems to be routed correctly so I am wandering what the cutoff is for the change over.

    Mine is a 1971 build date 02/71 so I would have thought it would have the earlier configuration and with only 32k miles on it plus the fact that the lines are routed correctly I am assuming it is the way the car came, but again that is an assumption.

    SO I am wandering that since I need a new one should I go back with what is there or the earlier configuration?

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    I'm a fan of White Post.

    After less than steller results with rebuilt brake parts on my MGA, I finally just sent the master and front calipers to White Post.

    The difference was amazing... the brakes felt and performed like new!
    Julio
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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by westpak View Post
    sorry to bring it back from the dead, but it looks like I need a new one for mine, and when looking at it the one there is of the later configuration with the larger or front reservoir at the back of the MC, the lines seems to be routed correctly so I am wandering what the cutoff is for the change over.

    Mine is a 1971 build date 02/71 so I would have thought it would have the earlier configuration and with only 32k miles on it plus the fact that the lines are routed correctly I am assuming it is the way the car came, but again that is an assumption.

    SO I am wandering that since I need a new one should I go back with what is there or the earlier configuration?
    Gus, don't pay attention to the reservoirs alone, as those can be changed. Look on the side of the cylinder near where the lines connect and look for a cast marking of 'F' and 'R' to correctly identify which port does what on the cylinder that you have. Your replacement needs to have the same port config as the lines on the car.

    Your car certainly should have come with the early style, as mine (7/71) did. I believe that the style changed in 8/71 or 9/71 production.
    Last edited by Arne; 05-02-2008 at 02:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne View Post
    Gus, don't pay attention to the reservoirs alone, as those can be changed. Look on the side of the cylinder near where the lines connect and look for a cast marking of 'F' and 'R' to correctly identify which port does what on the cylinder that you have. Your replacement needs to have the same port config as the lines on the car.

    Your car certainly should have come with the early style, as mine (7/71) did. I believe that the style changed in 8/71 or 9/71 production.
    Thanks I did check that and there is an F on the rear section under the large reservoir, and an R on the front, and the rear line goes to the front of the other cylinder where it seems a line goes out the front to the driver's side wheel and another goes out the top to go around to the passenger side, which why it seems the lines are properly routed

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    Semi-retired admin Arne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by westpak View Post
    Thanks I did check that and there is an F on the rear section under the large reservoir, and an R on the front, and the rear line goes to the front of the other cylinder where it seems a line goes out the front to the driver's side wheel and another goes out the top to go around to the passenger side, which why it seems the lines are properly routed
    Then I'd use the same type you have now. I still think that yours has been replaced at some time in the past, and the lines re-routed or replaced, but no matter now.
    Arne - Former owner, HLS30-37705, 7/71, 905 Red
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    SFZCC westpak's Avatar
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    thanks I will, well if anyone is looking for an early MC here is one still cheap on ebay with a day left http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-T...m300218620051&

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